Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

Peregrine

orangerhyme wrote: »

Luas and Metro are sexy.
Every few years the Metro north is announced.

The reality that the future of Dublin is a top class modern bus system. I think 50% of journeys are taken by bus.

It's closer to 70%. That's not sustainable. Unless you have some method for growing the physical ground level space in the city centre as the number of people using the space grows. 50% could be sustainable but the current modal share isn't.

The future is absolutely not bus. The future is metro, DART, Luas, BRT, bus and cycling. They all have their place and we need to invest in all of them. Parts of the Ballymun Road corridor are served by one bus every 2-4 minutes at peak times. Similarly Swords and the Airport. There's empty land in Ballymun and Santry for thousands of apartments, Dublin Airport passenger numbers are increasing and Swords is one of the largest urban areas in Ireland. A metro on that corridor could take most of those buses away from the city centre, free up space in the city centre for buses and trams serving other areas and stimulate high density developments along the corridor. It's not just sexy, it makes sense. It's the reason why every other city with an ounce of common sense has been doing it for decades. You haven't found the panacea with your buses for all solution for a growing population in an old city with narrow streets. Neither has Shane Ross.

Sam Russell

It is obvious that most passengers would prefer Luas to bus any day. More would choose Luas if given the choice but we only have two lines.

Many more would choose Metro.

Fast and dependable.

bk

In Dublin we have two tram routes and one DART (sort of) commuter route.

In Amsterdam, a city roughly the same population size and density as Dublin, they have 15 tram routes and 4 Metro routes with a fifth being built. This is where we need to be.

hmmm

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is obvious that most passengers would prefer Luas to bus any day. More would choose Luas if given the choice but we only have two lines.

Totally agree, and every time a politician has invested in transport infrastructure they are praised for it - yet they are incredibly reluctant. Possibly because by the time it is delivered some other politician will take the praise.

Yes the motorways are perhaps over-specced, but people love them. And are happy to pay for them. Same with LUAS. Same with Metro. And DU if it was every delivered. People are crying out to see their tax money spent on something tangible rather than disappearing in public sector pay or social welfare.

Sam Russell

hmmm wrote: »

Totally agree, and every time a politician has invested in transport infrastructure they are praised for it - yet they are incredibly reluctant. Possibly because by the time it is delivered some other politician will take the praise.

Yes the motorways are perhaps over-specced, but people love them. And are happy to pay for them. Same with LUAS. Same with Metro. And DU if it was every delivered. People are crying out to see their tax money spent on something tangible rather than disappearing in public sector pay or social welfare.

Actually, they hate seeing their tax money being thrown away at the consultants that plan all these projects that get cancelled, or reports that never do anything. That is the real problem. How many millions has been flushed down the consultants drain planning MN, DU, M20, etc etc etc. Nothing to show for any of them.

Perhaps we should set up a Tribunal of Inquiry into all the money wasted by the projects that do not happen. I am sure we could waste a few more hundreds of millions on one of those.

Lennoxschips

bk wrote: »

In Dublin we have two tram routes and one DART (sort of) commuter route.

In Amsterdam, a city roughly the same population size and density as Dublin, they have 15 tram routes and 4 Metro routes with a fifth being built. This is where we need to be.

Have lived in Amsterdam. My conclusion is that trams are a rubbish form of transport. The main way to get around Amsterdam is cycling and 40% of trips within the city are by bike. So lets bike lane the crap out of Dubin. When I couldn't cycle in Amsterdam I'd take the bus or walk the extra distance to get to a metro stop. Trams are rubbish. But politicians love them.

Chivito550

Overheard a hipster/hippie female student at the bus stop there:

“I have a personal vendetta towards the LUAS. It caused so much disruption and it doesn’t even serve that many people”.

Had to bite my lip to not butt in.

Phil.x

Chivito550 wrote: »

Overheard a hipster/hippie female student at the bus stop there:

“I have a personal vendetta towards the LUAS. It caused so much disruption and it doesn’t even serve that many people”.

Had to bite my lip to not butt in.

She's so right.

Chivito550

Phil.x wrote: »

She's so right.

There’s no point doing anything as everything costs money, causes disruption and doesn’t benefit everyone.

Welcome to Ireland.

yabadabado

Chivito550 wrote: »

Overheard a hipster/hippie female student at the bus stop there:

“I have a personal vendetta towards the LUAS. It caused so much disruption and it doesn’t even serve that many people”.

Had to bite my lip to not butt in.

She was obviously a public transport guru

Brian CivilEng

In 2016 the average weekday passenger numbers on the Luas was approx 115,000. According to our esteemed minister for transport, Luas numbers have increased by 24% since opening the cross city line. Assuming that there was no fall in numbers in 2017 that means that approx 143,000 people use the Luas on the average weekday.

Coincidentally the average daily traffic on the busiest section of the M50 was 145,000 in 2017.

LXFlyer

abitofacomedian wrote: »

In 2016 the average weekday passenger numbers on the Luas was approx 115,000. According to our esteemed minister for transport, Luas numbers have increased by 24% since opening the cross city line. Assuming that there was no fall in numbers in 2017 that means that approx 143,000 people use the Luas on the average weekday.

Coincidentally the average daily traffic on the busiest section of the M50 was 145,000 in 2017.

I think the it was usage of the Green Line that apparently increased by 24%, not LUAS overall.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

There’s no point doing anything as everything costs money, causes disruption and doesn’t benefit everyone.

Welcome to Ireland.

There is every point in doing it in a planned and organised manner, rather than in the totally disorganised and unplanned manner in which this has been rolled out.

This rollout has been shambolic.

Brian CivilEng

LXFlyer wrote: »

I think the it was usage of the Green Line that apparently increased by 24%, not LUAS overall.

Dammit, there goes my nice round figure :mad:

Phil.x

LXFlyer wrote: »

I think the it was usage of the Green Line that apparently increased by 24%, not LUAS overall.

Would that be people going from the m3 and maynooth train line making up that number.

LXFlyer

Phil.x wrote: »

Would that be people going from the m3 and maynooth train line making up that number.

I doubt that alone would deliver that kind of number - the peak hour LUAS frequency to/from Broombridge is woeful.

Zebra3

Chivito550 wrote: »

Overheard a hipster/hippie female student at the bus stop there:

“I have a personal vendetta towards the LUAS. It caused so much disruption and it doesn’t even serve that many people”.

Had to bite my lip to not butt in.

Sounds like she might be in for a slot on every radio show discussing PT.

Jamie2k9

The threat of legal action by Dublin city businesses has restricted the amount of traffic changes to College Green, according to the head of the city council.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/0221/942347-traffic-dublin-transport/

He finally spoke, but only because he was forced to!

Chivito550

Has anybody else noticed the tram seems to be talking longer to reach Stephens Green from south side these days. 23 mins from Ballaly to SSG this morning is pretty dreadful. Loading passengers seems to be taking an age and getting caught behind other trams is becoming more common. What’s going on?

tom1ie

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/0221/942347-traffic-dublin-transport/

He finally spoke, but only because he was forced to!

Jesus Christ, some of the quotes in this article! A taxi was blocking the tram, this shouldn’t happen and should have been made impossible by planning it out of the system.
We’ll speak to the taxi industry first, seriously? Pt decisions are going through the taxi industry first now are they?:mad:

Sam Russell

tom1ie wrote: »

Jesus Christ, some of the quotes in this article! A taxi was blocking the tram, this shouldn’t happen and should have been made impossible by planning it out of the system.
We’ll speak to the taxi industry first, seriously? Pt decisions are going through the taxi industry first now are they?:mad:

No, they go through the car park owners first, then if they agree they go to the taxi owners.

hmmm

His views were echoed by Joe Herron of the Taxi Federation of Ireland.

“It is grossly unfair to ask people to pay extra in time and fares to get to O’Connell or Dame St.

“The solution as we see it is to remove buses from the area as we are the only door-to-door service.”

It's outrageous what is being said. Bus passengers really are the lowest class when it comes to transport in Dublin.

yabadabado

Joe Herron should be told go **** himself. The taxi's and private cars should be the very first thing removed from that stretch.

strassenwo!f

I'm not in Dublin, and I haven't yet seen this cross-city service in action, but I'd be very interested to know what the numbers are like on trams in from Broombridge to the city, and trams outward from the city to broombridge.

Nothing specific, of course, just a broad picture of how well that section is being used. (I haven't seen any mention of this on this thread).

Sam Russell

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I'm not in Dublin, and I haven't yet seen this cross-city service in action, but I'd be very interested to know what the numbers are like on trams in from Broombridge to the city, and trams outward from the city to broombridge.

Nothing specific, of course, just a broad picture of how well that section is being used. (I haven't seen any mention of this on this thread).

The frequency of the service is poor at the present time due to lack of extra trams but these are coming on stream over the next few months. We shall see how much custom they get.

wakka12

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Have lived in Amsterdam. My conclusion is that trams are a rubbish form of transport. The main way to get around Amsterdam is cycling and 40% of trips within the city are by bike. So lets bike lane the crap out of Dubin. When I couldn't cycle in Amsterdam I'd take the bus or walk the extra distance to get to a metro stop. Trams are rubbish. But politicians love them.

Trams are only rubbish if they're within a congested tightly packed urban area, like around college green the luas starts going so slow and its barely worth taking it. If you live in sandy ford though trams are amazing and get you to town very quickly, it'd be hard work to cycle that distance and would be much longer.
Also cycling isn't for everyone, many people find it dangerous, people with young children can't, sick or elderly or those less able bodied, lots of people don't want to be sweating when they come into work

Trams can be and often are a great transport solution and dublin could do with more.

bk

Lennoxschips wrote: »

Have lived in Amsterdam. My conclusion is that trams are a rubbish form of transport. The main way to get around Amsterdam is cycling and 40% of trips within the city are by bike. So lets bike lane the crap out of Dubin. When I couldn't cycle in Amsterdam I'd take the bus or walk the extra distance to get to a metro stop. Trams are rubbish. But politicians love them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that it is mostly people with mobility issues that use trams and buses. While everyone else cycles.

Cycling is almost always the fastest way to get around any European city. Give people high quality, safe, cycling infrastructure and those who can will of course choose it.

Metros are more for those coming from further out, outside cycling distance. Many of them transfer to bikes for the last mile.

LXFlyer wrote: »

There is every point in doing it in a planned and organised manner, rather than in the totally disorganised and unplanned manner in which this has been rolled out.

Well they had a plan. It was just the usual car parks lobby that scuppered it as it always do. A complete plague on our city.

We really need to tackle the car parks. Rezone them, CPO them, whatever it takes, but they need to be taken out of the equation and we can finally fix our city.

wakka12 wrote: »

Trams are only rubbish if they're within a congested tightly packed urban area, like around college green the luas starts going so slow and its barely worth taking it. If you live in sandy ford though trams are amazing and get you to town very quickly, it'd be hard work to cycle that distance and would be much longer.

The Tram from Sandyford in is more like a Metro. High degree of separation, at least until the city center and relatively fast and high capacity. Though you see their limitations of them with street running in core city centers with Luas Cross City and the Red line, which is what Lennoxschips is on about.

What we need now is more Metros and sensible extensions to the Luas lines.

wakka12 wrote: »

Also cycling isn't for everyone, many people find it dangerous,

Only because we don't have the high quality, dedicated cycling infrastructure like Amsterdam.

wakka12 wrote: »

people with young children can't, sick or elderly or those less able bodied, lots of people don't want to be sweating when they come into work

If you go to Amsterdam you will see loads of parents cycling with young children, either in child bike seats or in cargo bikes, hell I see a lot of that here in my area of Dublin too!

You also see lots of elderly and less able bodies cycling tri-cycles too over their.

The sweaty thing is a complete myth. If you are just commute cycling, you don't sweat at all.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have public transport for those who don't want to cycle, but all the above are just excuses (the infrastructure one a good one in fairness).

Idbatterim

The Tram from Sandyford in is more like a Metro. High degree of separation, at least until the city center and relatively fast and high capacity. Though you see their limitations of them with street running in core city centers with Luas Cross City and the Red line, which is what Lennoxschips is on about.

What we need now is more Metros and sensible extensions to the Luas lines.

there are so many junctions that are small, where luas waits and I dont understand why! A prime example being where hatch street upper intersects with Harcourt st! then from harcourt to stephens green, why cant a sensor trip something when the luas pulls off, so that it can cross the junction moving?

There could be massive improvements made to existing system, also the 10kmph limit on college green! There could be massive improvements made, until Dublin metro is up and running...

CramCycle

wakka12 wrote: »

If you live in sandy ford though trams are amazing and get you to town very quickly, it'd be hard work to cycle that distance and would be much longer.

Not really, Google maps has the LUAS at 22minutes and cycling at 34minutes between Sandyford Luas and SSG Luas stop. Considering the LUAS time will be very close and they over exaggerate the cycling time immensely, it is only a 10minute difference. Considering you probably do not start in the LUAS car park and have to walk to it, it is probably closer, time wise again.

Also cycling isn't for everyone, many people find it dangerous, people with young children can't, sick or elderly or those less able bodied, lots of people don't want to be sweating when they come into work

Sweating is not as big a deal as people make out, because it is often, not always, related to how hard you push it. I could cut that cycling time in half and be covered in sweat, or just be at the google prediction, and be breathing less heavy than if I had been walking.

Trams can be and often are a great transport solution and dublin could do with more.

100%, but there are alot of things Dublin PT could do with, trams is one but it is not the only one.

bk wrote: »

Cycling is almost always the fastest way to get around any European city. Give people high quality, safe, cycling infrastructure and those who can will of course choose it.

I am not sure you even need that, there has to be a cultural and policy mind set that facilitates it. Paris getting rid of the no red light running on turns. Motorists then expected it, safety would appear to have improved, cycling times have improved, and the mindset comes into being, with cycling being seen as not only a viable alternative but one that others expect.

Only because we don't have the high quality, dedicated cycling infrastructure like Amsterdam.

Having been to Amsterdam several times, it really is the culture that is the big difference. The infrastructure helped breed it but the culture is the difference.

beauf

In fairness you'll use alternative trams and buses to cycling if you have a long commute. Most people don't though.

The biggest obstacle is that it's not pleasant without half decent infrastructure. Though for many it's not bad if they'd just try it.