Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

donvito99

strassenwo!f wrote: »

given that there is much else to do in the city, and recent posts on this thread indicate that an upgrade may be premature

I think it's just yourself positing that.

strassenwo!f

donvito99 wrote: »

I think it's just yourself positing that.

I don't think so. The poster cramcycle seemed to also have doubts about the necessity for an upgrade, and came up with options for the green line which were very possibly better than mine.

Would you care to answer the questions?

Stephen15

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I've read statements on this board that (some) officials at the public consultation about the metrolink project are saying that the LUAS line south of Sandyford will 'never' be upgraded to metro status.

I am curious about this: while I don't think the next 10-15 or so years is an appropriate time to upgrade the green line - given that there is much else to do in the city, and recent posts on this thread indicate that an upgrade may be premature - it was always my hope that it would eventually be upgraded to have a very fine service between Cherrywood, Sandyford and the city.

Two questions:

Could someone give a clear explanation why the line south of Sandyford won't be, or can't be, upgraded?

And, if it can't, why did Dublin spend so much money on the infrastructure for a tram line which is out in the sticks, and will remain out in the sticks, when a bus route might have sufficed?

There are too many at grade crossing with the road south of Sandyford which wouldn't allow for high frequency trains. The section of line between Sandyford and Charlemount is ideal for Metro conversion as most of the line is fenced off from pedestrians and vehicles and it only has two at grade crossings which be changed to overpasses or closed and replaced with cup de sacs.

Also the long term aim is to extend the Luas line South off Sandyford to Bray which would likely have street running within Bray town itself not possible if the line was built as Metro I think don't Bray would really would really require tunnelling under the town for metro.

The reason the Luas was extended South of Sandyford was that it was a cheap and easy extension to serve the large amount of houses west of the M50 around Ballyogan Road, Leopardstown and Stepaside which were previously poorly served by bus based public transport with only the low frequency routes 44 and 63 serving them and to allow for future development around Carrickmines, Laughanstown and Cherrywood which is now taking place in Cherrywood.

A number of cities around Europe have suburban tramway system which connect with Metros for example London, Paris and Madrid. I suspect that the Luas line South of Sandyford will morph into something to the trams in Madrid which provide high frequency tram connections from suburbs to the Metro and heavy rail lines within Madrid.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Ligero

salmocab

Not going to quote a long post but no it’s not ideal that the LUAS beyond Sandyford can’t be upgraded and it’s not ideal that it will have to be closed to make some of the upgrades but we are where we are due to years of bad planning and the current plan probably makes the best use of the money currently available. The metro is needed and the green line is packed constantly even at the weekend at times, So it makes sense to do this all in one go.

strassenwo!f

Stephen15 wrote: »

There are too many at grade crossing with the road south of Sandyford which wouldn't allow for high frequency trains. The section of line between Sandyford and Charlemount is ideal for Metro conversion as most of the line is fenced off from pedestrians and vehicles and it only has two at grade crossings which be changed to overpasses or closed and replaced with cup de sacs.

Also the long term aim is to extend the Luas line South off Sandyford to Bray which would likely have street running within Bray town itself not possible if the line was built as Metro I think don't Bray would really would really require tunnelling under the town for metro.

The reason the Luas was extended South of Sandyford was that it was a cheap and easy extension to serve the large amount of houses west of the M50 around Ballyogan Road, Leopardstown and Stepaside which were previously poorly served by bus based public transport with only the low frequency routes 44 and 63 serving them and to allow for future development around Carrickmines, Laughanstown and Cherrywood which is now taking place in Cherrywood.

It was obviously easy, because it was open countryside for the most part, but it was not cheap to build the tunnels and bridges, the track bed and the catenary, the stops, etc. It remains unclear why the bus lines serving these areas could not have been strengthened to remove the need for all the tram infrastructure.

Stephen15 wrote: »

A number of cities around Europe have suburban tramway system which connect with Metros for example London, Paris and Madrid. I suspect that the Luas line South of Sandyford will morph into something to the trams in Madrid which provide high frequency tram connections from suburbs to the Metro and heavy rail lines within Madrid.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Ligero

The cities which you mention all have very well-developed rail infrastructure, covering pretty much the entirety of those cities. Dublin does not. I'm not sure about the latter two, but in London's case the tram network was developed to fit it with an already developed overground and underground rail network. This is clearly not the case in Dublin.

Sam Russell

Was not the extension south of Sandyford part funded by the developers so they could benefit from it?

[Of course the crash in 2008 changed all that but left a stub of a Luas service]

I assume that Luas trams will still be able to travel from Sandyford to Charlemont for service/maintenance./transfer.

Stephen15

strassenwo!f wrote: »

It was obviously easy, because it was open countryside for the most part, but it was not cheap to build the tunnels and bridges, the track bed and the catenary, the stops, etc. It remains unclear why the bus lines serving these areas could not have been strengthened to remove the need for all the tram infrastructure.

The problem is that the buses in those areas were generally slow free of QBCs serving residential areas and ran parallel to the existing Luas line and QBCs. For example the 44 for a large part runs parallel to green line it is a low frequency local route that serves it's purpose. The 63 used to run hourly into the city centre along the N11 QBC running parallel to the more frequent 46a and 145. It now operates as a local route every half hour between Kilternan and DL since the Luas line has opened it's far more efficient than its old routing.

If you improved buses in those areas in order to get people out of cars you'd have to build QBCs which would be wasteful as they'd run parallel to the Luas line. Also numbers have been good between Sandyford and Carrickmines since completion it's only South of Carrickmines where the numbers are poor and that will change when Cherrywood SPZ is completed in a few years time.

The cities which you mention all have very well-developed rail infrastructure, covering pretty much the entirety of those cities. Dublin does not. I'm not sure about the latter two, but in London's case the tram network was developed to fit it with an already developed overground and underground rail network. This is clearly not the case in Dublin.

True but I was just giving examples as to how a suburban tram service can connect to Metro systems. When the line to Bray is built the line will connect with the Dart in Bray and the Metro in Sandyford and the area in between will be far more developed than currently meaning the numbers will be there to justify it.

cgcsb

The Sandyford- Cherrywood section of the line has a smaller loading gauge, it couldn't accommodate 2 wider metro trams passing eachother out. There's also the issue of grade separation, south of Sandyford was not designed with the possibility of future metro upgrade. Either way This is a vast improvement of service, trams are often completely full by the time they get to Sandyford. Having a 2 minute 90m metro from there northwards will mean a dramatic improvement. The problem is we have a minimum of 9 years to wait for that improvement. Also it's only after 2027 will the construction of a Coolock-Tallaght metro line be considered. We've a lot of painful commutes left before Dublin's public transport reaches an acceptable standard for a metropolitan area soon to be home to 2 million people.

threein99

Might be starting a new job in Stephens Green area in a few weeks. I live in Castleknock, has anyone experience of the commute from Castleknock to Stephens Green using the train from Castleknock and LUAS from Broombridge ?

Sam Russell

Mod: Now a new thread has been started for 'future' Luas lines, can speculation on such new lines be expressed on that thread and this thread be about the Green Line and its current format.

Quackster

Sam Russell wrote: »

I assume that Luas trams will still be able to travel from Sandyford to Charlemont for service/maintenance/transfer.

The preferred option at this stage for Metrolink will involve the complete severance of the existing line just south of Clarlemont so this won't be possible.

salmocab

Quackster wrote: »

The preferred option at this stage for Metrolink will involve the complete severance of the existing line just south of Clarlemont so this won't be possible.

I think I remember they said it would still be possible, I imagine there will be a set of points. It would be crazy having no way of moving tram sets between the 3 depots and lines.

yer man!

It was mentioned in the Metrolink documents that there's the option of temporarily running the Luas on the Ranelagh Road to connect the Ranelagh and Harcourt stations. No idea what this would involve really though.

Quackster

salmocab wrote: »

I think I remember they said it would still be possible, I imagine there will be a set of points. It would be crazy having no way of moving tram sets between the 3 depots and lines.

There are two options which involve the Luas terminating at Charlemont with an adjacent metro station. One option maintains a single service track linking the Luas and metro lines but this involves significant additional property acquisition so the route options report recommends the option that would involve the complete severance of the Luas track just south of Charlemont Luas station.

Dats me

Quackster wrote: »

There are two options which involve the Luas terminating at Charlemont with an adjacent metro station. One option maintains a single service track linking the Luas and metro lines but this involves significant additional property acquisition so the route options report recommends the option that would involve the complete severance of the Luas track just south of Charlemont Luas station.

I think he's asking whether there will be an engineering link for moving trams around for maintenance etc. i.e. will MetroLink run on a different guage?

Quackster

Dats me wrote: »

I think he's asking whether there will be an engineering link for moving trams around for maintenance etc. i.e. will MetroLink run on a different guage?

Sorry, I meant one of the Charlemont options (and well as other options) maintains a single engineering link but this would require significant additional property acquisition so the preferred Charlemont option does not include an engineering link.

The reason for the need for significant additional land is that the metro would require a ramp of substantial length to run alongside the existing Luas line to bring the metro line up to the same level as the overhead Luas line. If the Luas link is completely severed, a section of the existing Luas line can be taken out to facilitate this ramp.

marno21

I don't see the issue with severance. After all the red and green lines were severed for most of their operational life without difficulty

Beta Ray Bill

Looks like the are back testing the max length Luas trams.

This one was Out of Service just now. Seen another one earlier too


Does anyone know the tech specs of the Longer Trams?

Same Motor as the smaller ones but with more cars?

markpb

grahambo wrote: »

Looks like the are back testing the max length Luas trams.

How tall are you!?

Beta Ray Bill

markpb wrote: »

How tall are you!?

Long Arms!

cgcsb

Assuming that ABP come up with a positive decision regarding the College Green Plaza, can it be implemented immediately? that is close off CG for East-West traffic?

I think that'd be a big help in facilitating the longer trams. Then DCC can set about taking cars off the quays, which should have been done a year ago.

Beta Ray Bill

cgcsb wrote: »

Then DCC can set about taking cars off the quays, which should have been done a year ago.

You realise that by completely banning cars from the quays you're effectively banning Cars from Dublin City centre.

For me this would be great! I drive a motorcycle. No cars means I could fly in and out of town.
Note: I use the DART (which is always packed) every day to get to work as it's nearly as fast as it is on a bike (That's how bad the traffic situation is in Dublin atm :eek:)

The the reality is far different. There is no doubt in my mind that if you banned cars from the quays, you'd hurt business in Dublin city centre.
Irish people for some strange reason love their cars!
I had to come in on the motorcycle this morning (As I need to get some work done on it today) and I'm still astounded by the number of people who are prepared to just sit in their cars for hours on end, barely moving at all.
So I don't think that if you ban cars from Dublin city you'll force people to use public transport, what will happen is they'll just stop coming into Dublin city altogether.

I myself fall into this bracket.
My next job, without a doubt, will not be in Dublin city centre. I have an expensive bike sitting there Monday to Friday that's not cost effective to use given where I live and where I work.
Next Job will be out in a Business park on the North Side of the city somewhere. Maybe East point or something like that. Then I'll be able to get to work in 15 mins or so, as opposed to the 35-45 mins it take now.

bk

grahambo wrote: »

The the reality is far different. There is no doubt in my mind that if you banned cars from the quays, you'd hurt business in Dublin city centre.

Not really, only 19% of people who shop in Dublin City Center got there by car!

The other 81% get there by walking, cycling or public transport.

In fact interestingly cyclists are the biggest spenders per person!

Many people have this idea that the majority of people in Dublin City Center get there by car, due to how much space each car takes up and the congestion. In reality most don't drive and really it just shows how inefficient cars are.

Grafton Street had cars on it to the 1970's! Can you imagine that! Pedestrianising it didn't hurt it, in fact quiet the opposite, it went from strength to strength. The same will be true for the rest of the city.

loyatemu

bk wrote: »

Grafton Street had cars on it to the 1970's! Can you imagine that! Pedestrianising it didn't hurt it, in fact quiet the opposite, it went from strength to strength. The same will be true for the rest of the city.

you can still drive into BT or the SSG centre and park to shop on Grafton St.

IMO you don't need to ban cars completely, they're only a major problem for a few hours on weekdays. Just restrict the space they have - if they have one lane, then no-one can complain they've been banned, you can still drive in and park but be prepared for a slow journey. Far too many roads still have 2 or 3 lanes for private traffic. You would also have to provide proper physical segregation for bus and cycle lanes and remove on-street parking.

Stephen15

grahambo wrote: »

The the reality is far different. There is no doubt in my mind that if you banned cars from the quays, you'd hurt business in Dublin city centre.
Irish people for some strange reason love their cars!
I had to come in on the motorcycle this morning (As I need to get some work done on it today) and I'm still astounded by the number of people who are prepared to just sit in their cars for hours on end, barely moving at all.
So I don't think that if you ban cars from Dublin city you'll force people to use public transport, what will happen is they'll just stop coming into Dublin city altogether.

I don't think anyone loves their car in the sense that they are huge petrol heads. I thinks it's more that a lot of people are quite narrow minded and they don't see past it as they think that the public transport alternatives are slow, unpleasant and unreliable or they are doing a cross city journey and aren't willing to pay the tolls on the M50 or Port tunnel.

That's why I suggest we remove the M50 toll so people aren't clogging up less significant roads who should be on the M50. I don't think Dublin CC will die if you removed cars as the majority come by public transport anyway and not by car.

Beta Ray Bill

bk wrote: »

Not really, only 19% of people who shop in Dublin City Center got there by car!

The other 81% get there by walking, cycling or public transport.

In fact interestingly cyclists are the biggest spenders per person!

I read that statistic somewhere before too.
I doesn't say how much they spent or what they spent it on (could just be lunch), only that they spent something.

I'd guess that those coming into town in Cars spend a lot more.

bk wrote: »

Many people have this idea that the majority of people in Dublin City Center get there by car, due to how much space each car takes up and the congestion. In reality most don't drive and really it just shows how inefficient cars are.

Completely agreed that they are extremely inefficient, we don't even car pool in Ireland.
But people don't care about how inefficient it is, this is the problem.
These people don't want to use public transport. My Ex would give up work rather than use public transport.
They'd be prepared to spend twice a long in a car if it meant they didn't have to use it.

bk wrote: »

Grafton Street had cars on it to the 1970's! Can you imagine that! Pedestrianising it didn't hurt it, in fact quiet the opposite, it went from strength to strength. The same will be true for the rest of the city.

I think it went well because cars were still able to get into the city, IE it was accessible.

loyatemu wrote: »

IMO you don't need to ban cars completely, they're only a major problem for a few hours on weekdays. Just restrict the space they have - if they have one lane, then no-one can complain they've been banned, you can still drive in and park but be prepared for a slow journey. Far too many roads still have 2 or 3 lanes for private traffic. You would also have to provide proper physical segregation for bus and cycle lanes and remove on-street parking.

Agreed.
But to add, there are many main roads into Dublin City centre that do not have a dedicated bus lane on each side of the road.
There are also Bus Lanes where the bus stop is on the main road instead of having a siding/lay by/inlet or what ever you want to call it, so that the bus can pull in to let other buses by. In may cases there is loads of space to to this, but for whatever reason it hasn't been done. Fairview is perfect example of of this, so is Clontarf Road.

Originally, years ago, I thought cycle lanes were a good idea (as I cycle too!) however now I think they are a waste of space. Cyclists will start weaving in and out of traffic when the cycle lane stops as the road is too narrow. Not to mention if the surface isn't perfect the lads on the racer bikes wont use it (And why would they? It'll buckle their wheels). There is also a growing problem of cyclists on footpaths. My mother was only hit by a cyclist on the footpath on the Alfie Byrne Road yesterday. Little fecker cycled off.

loyatemu

grahambo wrote: »

Originally, years ago, I thought cycle lanes were a good idea (as I cycle too!) however now I think they are a waste of space. Cyclists will start weaving in and out of traffic when the cycle lane stops as the road is too narrow. Not to mention if the surface isn't perfect the lads on the racer bikes wont use it (And why would they? It'll buckle their wheels). There is also a growing problem of cyclists on footpaths. My mother was only hit by a cyclist on the footpath on the Alfie Byrne Road yesterday. Little fecker cycled off.

people will use cycle lanes if they're well designed, well maintained and continuous. Experienced/fast cyclists may continue to use the road, but that's not the point - if you want more people on bikes you have to provide the infrastructure. One asshat hitting your mother is not a reason not to build decent cycle lanes.

Beta Ray Bill

loyatemu wrote: »

people will use cycle lanes if they're well designed, well maintained and continuous. Experienced/fast cyclists may continue to use the road, but that's not the point - if you want more people on bikes you have to provide the infrastructure. One asshat hitting your mother is not a reason not to build decent cycle lanes.

Agreed,
Looking at the stats, the number of people on Bikes has doubled since 2006 (6,000 to 12,000)
IE people crossing the Canal between 7am and 10am
Still over 50,000 cars a day though which is sh*t
There needs to be more infra, but the other side of that is that people need to use it.

There is proper dedicated cycle lane on the AB road but people wont use parts of it coming to/going out of town as the Cycle lane crosses the road at a pedestrian crossing.



So effectively we're back to the same problem like was mentioned above
People, whether they are motorists/cyclists are in their own little bubble oblivious to whats going on around them, only concerned with what's happening for them, so to speak

I gave my mam a GoPro today to record the problem on the road, I'll stick it up tomorrow.

cgcsb

grahambo wrote: »

You realise that by completely banning cars from the quays you're effectively banning Cars from Dublin City centre.

No it isn't. When I say the quays I only mean Bachelors walk and Aston Quay.

grahambo wrote: »

what will happen is they'll just stop coming into Dublin city altogether.

Well I know that definitely won't happen because it would involve people changing jobs(a difficult task) and most jobs are located centrally anyway. Also everywhere else in the entire world that has implemented similar measures have had universal success with them.

Beta Ray Bill

cgcsb wrote: »

No it isn't. When I say the quays I only mean Bachelors walk and Aston Quay.

I get ya

cgcsb wrote: »

Well I know that definitely won't happen because it would involve people changing jobs(a difficult task) and most jobs are located centrally anyway. Also everywhere else in the entire world that has implemented similar measures have had universal success with them.

You'd be surprised how many people would start looking if this were the case. Younger people (Those in there 30's and below) generally change job every few years anyway. A lot of new companies are setting up shop on the M50 ring as the commercial rates in Dublin City are excessively high.