Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

bk

loyatemu wrote: »

you can still drive into BT or the SSG centre and park to shop on Grafton St.

And yet most people don't according to the below study, just 19% of shoppers on Grafton Street got there by car.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Dublin_City_Centre_Shopper_Survey_Report_MB_1.pdf

But it certainly disproves the idea that the city would be crippled without cars. In reality motorists add very little to the city and the city would be a much more attractive place to visit without them.

grahambo wrote: »

I read that statistic somewhere before too.
I doesn't say how much they spent or what they spent it on (could just be lunch), only that they spent something.

I'd guess that those coming into town in Cars spend a lot more.

That is the perception and the studies find it is wrong. People who walk into the city actually spend the most!

You don't need a car to spend big in the city. You can cycle or take the bus into the city and then order a €2000 TV or €3000 sofa in Arnotts or buy nice jewellery in BT.

Also what is wrong with just getting lunch? People spending money on lunch, dinner, coffee, cinema, pubs, theatre, etc. is absolutely vital to the economic health of a city.

monument

grahambo wrote: »

Agreed,
Looking at the stats, the number of people on Bikes has doubled since 2006 (6,000 to 12,000)
IE people crossing the Canal between 7am and 10am
Still over 50,000 cars a day though which is sh*t
There needs to be more infra, but the other side of that is that people need to use it.

There is proper dedicated cycle lane on the AB road but people wont use parts of it coming to/going out of town as the Cycle lane crosses the road at a pedestrian crossing.



So effectively we're back to the same problem like was mentioned above
People, whether they are motorists/cyclists are in their own little bubble oblivious to whats going on around them, only concerned with what's happening for them, so to speak

I gave my mam a GoPro today to record the problem on the road, I'll stick it up tomorrow.

The bit south the East point business park entrance goes in the wrong direction for people cycling east / south on East Wall Road.

99% of people will use cycle paths when they make sense. This bit doesn’t make sense eastbound or southbound.

Zebra3

Sure plenty of motorists just drive in to the city without spending anything. Just passing through from one suburbia to another but adding to the city’s air and noise pollution and congestion.

Beta Ray Bill

monument wrote: »

The bit south the East point business park entrance goes in the wrong direction for people cycling east / south on East Wall Road.

99% of people will use cycle paths when they make sense. This bit doesn’t make sense eastbound or southbound.

They had to move the Cycle lane to the other side of the road years ago (before the tunnel was built).

It used to be all on the side heading into East Wall (South of the map)
But that turn left on to the east was road is lethal, Cyclists were cycling up the inside of Atric trucks turning left. The Larger trucks used to regularly clip the kerb and any cyclist there would be seriously injured or killed.

So they moved the Cycle lane to the other side of the road. I think for liability reasons. IE Why weren't you in the cycle lane?

Saw more longer Luas Trams again this morning.

Does anyone know the spec? Do they have an uprated motor to accommodate the extra cars.

Also is it me, or do they seem to move slower?

Beta Ray Bill

Looks what's in the news this morning:

Ghost town: Cork traders threaten rates revolt over city centre car ban

Traders clearly feel that a car ban is not the way to go

BonnieSituation

grahambo wrote: »

Looks what's in the news this morning:

Ghost town: Cork traders threaten rates revolt over city centre car ban

Traders clearly feel that a car ban is not the way to go

Remember that time the traders lobbied for Naas not to be bypassed...

Traders are the worst people to ask about such things. No foresight ever.

Beta Ray Bill

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Remember that time the traders lobbied for Naas not to be bypassed...

Traders are the worst people to ask about such things. No foresight ever.

I get what you are saying.
But Naas is a commuter town for Dublin.

If you look at many of the non commuter towns in the country that have been by-passed the story is very different.

Ben D Bus

grahambo wrote: »

If you look at many of the non commuter towns in the country that have been by-passed the story is very different.

I don't think that describes Cork city centre either.

Beta Ray Bill

Ben D Bus wrote: »

I don't think that describes Cork city centre either.

True, but the stats speak for themselves.
Traders can back up their stats, where are Cork City Councils stats?

The calling crys of a crappy plan/design:
Needs time to bed in <= I HATE that saying
We have challenges
We need to engage
Teething problems

In other words: There's a whole bunch of things we didn't think about/care about and just went ahead and did it anyway.
All mentioned in the above article.

Hopefully though people will start going back into the city by foot/cycle or by public transport.

CramCycle

grahambo wrote: »

True, but the stats speak for themselves.
Traders can back up their stats, where are Cork City Councils stats?

Its been two weeks, the weather has been awful. Basically the traders cannot back anything up yet.

loyatemu

traders always want people to be able to drive up their door and park there, like in the 60s.

Beta Ray Bill

CramCycle wrote: »

Its been two weeks, the weather has been awful. Basically the traders cannot back anything up yet.

Ah C'mon!

This is Ireland the weather is always terrible!

They have stats to hand there.

loyatemu wrote: »

traders always want people to be able to drive up their door and park there, like in the 60s.

Absolutely, some of them have a real petrol station mentality.

For them to threaten to stop paying rates though after just 2 week, things must be bad!

I don't live in Cork so, I cannot say for sure.

The Topic probably deserves it's own thread.

One thing I have noticed though is that Grafton St doesn't seem as busy at it used to be at rush hour. (I walk from Tara St Station up Grafton St to Work)
Lunchtime seems unaffected.

Ben D Bus

You have 2 sides here that together contribute to making things worse.

Traders who don't like change as it's a risk, and local authorities who implement change badly thus reinforcing traders fear of change. As you'll never eliminate fear of change (it's a human thing), focus has to be on a more professional approach to change management.

cgcsb

grahambo wrote: »

Looks what's in the news this morning:

Ghost town: Cork traders threaten rates revolt over city centre car ban

Traders clearly feel that a car ban is not the way to go

Traders? traders opposed, successfully, having two connecting luas lines. Traders organisations are inherently anti progress set ups. Also it's Cork, Ireland is a moany place but Cork is easily the centre of moaning, they also have a flare for the dramatic down south, blame the armada for that.

cgcsb

grahambo wrote: »

True, but the stats speak for themselves.
Traders can back up their stats, where are Cork City Councils stats?

The traders don't have any stats just to be clear, they only have histrionics.

cgcsb

grahambo wrote: »

One thing I have noticed though is that Grafton St doesn't seem as busy at it used to be at rush hour. (I walk from Tara St Station up Grafton St to Work)
Lunchtime seems unaffected.

Perhaps a latent delayed result of the 1980 pedestrianisation scheme :rolleyes:

Sam Russell

Mod: Cross City Luas instead of cross Cork traders?

Middle Man

bk wrote: »

And yet most people don't according to the below study, just 19% of shoppers on Grafton Street got there by car.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Dublin_City_Centre_Shopper_Survey_Report_MB_1.pdf

But it certainly disproves the idea that the city would be crippled without cars. In reality motorists add very little to the city and the city would be a much more attractive place to visit without them.



That is the perception and the studies find it is wrong. People who walk into the city actually spend the most!

You don't need a car to spend big in the city. You can cycle or take the bus into the city and then order a €2000 TV or €3000 sofa in Arnotts or buy nice jewellery in BT.

Also what is wrong with just getting lunch? People spending money on lunch, dinner, coffee, cinema, pubs, theatre, etc. is absolutely vital to the economic health of a city.

...and perhaps ridding the footpaths of those pesky parked bikes would also add to the city - Get Off Our Footpaths!!!

It is plain to see that what Dublin actually needs is an underground rail system - simple as - there is no other solution! The city needs to see at least one metro line delivered every decade starting with MetroLink for the 2020's. Next, a cross city metro line via the Docklands for the 2030's - perhaps from Tallaght to Clongriffin with a view to filling in the remaining large gaps left inside the M50 the rail transit systems as well as increasing capacity/connectivity for the Docklands. Perhaps, some form of the Dart Inter-connector for the 2040's - it would be our CrossRail project!

Come guys, we need to stop making a fool of ourselves by trying to turn the clock back - we need forward thinking and ambition! You know quite well that Dutch Cycling is a very different ballgame to what we're trying to do here by merely downgrading the roads - even at that, the cycling infrastructure service level would still fall far short of Dutch standards - this is due to lack of space. We need to get back on track - literally. 50 years ago, motorways were all the rage abroad and it's not even 10 years since we have managed a very basic system FFS. In 2018, it's all about railways and it's deja vu for Ireland - it's like being in the 1980's again. Everyone else is building railways and look at us - in relative terms, it brings us back to the day when we thought we were great having the Naas Dual Carriageway - while on it, an American industrialist was asking (back in the 1970's) when he'd be coming to the motorway and was told "This is it!" :rolleyes:

We need to start taking infrastructure seriously if this country is to survive economically in the 21st Century!

Drifter50

Another French Convoi Exceptionnel with 2 escort vans ( French as well ) at the newly built Brewery Road spur on Tuesday morning unloading a 9 piece set. I saw 3 sets in the depot this afternoon.

Spoke to a Transdev admin manager back at Christmas who had a few on him but he said there are serious concerns about the motors. Alstrom apparently told the NTA that the motors are not up to dragging a fully loaded 9 piece up the ramp from street level to Charlemont on a fulltime basis. There is an engineering term for when you put too much load on an electric traction motor, think its called flashover. Anyone have any more info on this.

Clearly full speed ahead with the 9 piece sets but no answers on the city centre congestion...................

Why do we try to reinvent the wheel here, most European cities I have been in ( Cologne, Amsterdam, Paris, Barcelona etc ) have short 2/3 piece trams that chug along happily almost right behind each other but Dublin........no we go our own road

LeinsterDub

Drifter50 wrote: »

Why do we try to reinvent the wheel here, most European cities I have been in ( Cologne, Amsterdam, Paris, Barcelona etc ) have short 2/3 piece trams that chug along happily almost right behind each other but Dublin........no we go our own road

It's simply not feasible. You'd need 3, piece trams to match the current capacity to do so you'd be talking about a frequency of every 30 seconds. This leaves no time for other traffic movements and very little fault tolerance.

bk

Drifter50 wrote: »

Why do we try to reinvent the wheel here, most European cities I have been in ( Cologne, Amsterdam, Paris, Barcelona etc ) have short 2/3 piece trams that chug along happily almost right behind each other but Dublin........no we go our own road

All those cities have extensive underground systems that carry the bulk of people. The trams are more local access to supplement the core routes.

We are trying to ask too much of our trams and need to build an extensive underground network similar to those cities.

fly_agaric

Drifter50 wrote: »

Why do we try to reinvent the wheel here, most European cities I have been in ( Cologne, Amsterdam, Paris, Barcelona etc ) have short 2/3 piece trams that chug along happily almost right behind each other but Dublin........no we go our own road

Unfortunately small to mid size European cities (excl. our paragons in the UK) have public transport networks Dublin might have (if we are lucky with economy & the politicians over next generation) some time post 2070 so we probably do have to go our own road with the meagre stuff we have for now!

Beta Ray Bill

Drifter50 wrote: »

Alstrom apparently told the NTA that the motors are not up to dragging a fully loaded 9 piece up the ramp from street level to Charlemont on a fulltime basis.

Of course!
The Ramp to Charlemont!

And it's just after a sharp bend where it crosses the road,, so there is no way it could get a run at it.

So do you know if they are installing/have installed uprated motors?

What's alarming about this though (if what you say is true) is that the NTA were told there would be an issue, but they blatantly ignored it and went ahead with their plans anyway!

Flashover or Arcing occurs when the electric motor is drawing to much power. If the voltage is higher than the insulation strength between bars, then flashover or arcing between the bars and one of the brushes can occur. If it happens enough the insulator between the 2 bars begins to break down. Once it's gone, the motor is knackered.

Sam Russell

There is also a ramp at Leopardstown. I think that might be a challenge as well.

Dardania

grahambo wrote: »

Drifter50 wrote: »

Alstrom apparently told the NTA that the motors are not up to dragging a fully loaded 9 piece up the ramp from street level to Charlemont on a fulltime basis.

Of course!
The Ramp to Charlemont!

And it's just after a sharp bend where it crosses the road,, so there is no way it could get a run at it.

So do you know if they are installing/have installed uprated motors?

What's alarming about this though (if what you say is true) is that the NTA were told there would be an issue, but they blatantly ignored it and went ahead with their plans anyway!

Flashover or Arcing occurs when the electric motor is drawing to much power. If the voltage is higher than the insulation strength between bars, then flashover or arcing between the bars and one of the brushes can occur. If it happens enough the insulator between the 2 bars begins to break down. Once it's gone, the motor is knackered.

Progress is an exercise in taking risk. It sounds like the operation of these longer trams, with Dublin commuters & ramp conditions, was at the edge of the envelope. Maybe the manufacturer couldn't definitely rule out it wouldn't work. If it did work well, we would all be very satisfied with the additional capacity (or more likely, find something else to whinge about)
Progress is an exercise in taking risk

Beta Ray Bill

Dardania wrote: »

Progress is an exercise in taking risk. It sounds like the operation of these longer trams, with Dublin commuters & ramp conditions, was at the edge of the envelope. Maybe the manufacturer couldn't definitely rule out it wouldn't work. If it did work well, we would all be very satisfied with the additional capacity (or more likely, find something else to whinge about)
Progress is an exercise in taking risk

Absolutely agreed!

But there needs to be risk reduction/calculated risk and planning.

NTA clearly did not do much in the way of planning for the Luas cross city (in terms of the effect it would have across Dublin city) Redirection of 1/3 of Buses off college green, traffic chaos and failing Luas trams. Not to mention it's quicker to walk from College St stop to Harcourt Street stop than it is to take the Luas (unless the Luas is there when you arrive at the stop). Then there's the issue with the length of the Luas and the new bridge.

There is no way anyone can argue that it was planned well.

The design and implementation of the track itself was very well done. IE the builders did the work to spec and seem have done a V.good job.

Don't get me wrong, we needed the Luas lines to meet up. I'm glad it's been built.

In Hindsight (Forgive me ) it would have been better to run the Luas through TCD, and left college green as it was.

markpb

grahambo wrote: »

In Hindsight (Forgive me ) it would have been better to run the Luas through TCD, and left college green as it was.

That's not hindsight, it's just silly. There was no way the Luas was ever going to run through Trinity. It's not physically viable. It's not politically viable and it would have been tied up in the courts for years as Trinity threw their considerable weight against it. We'd have spent €300m on solicitors, barristers and PR firms and not have a single piece of track to show for it.

grahambo wrote: »

NTA clearly did not do much in the way of planning for the Luas cross city (in terms of the effect it would have across Dublin city) Redirection of 1/3 of Buses off college green, traffic chaos and failing Luas trams. Not to mention it's quicker to walk from College St stop to Harcourt Street stop than it is to take the Luas (unless the Luas is there when you arrive at the stop). Then there's the issue with the length of the Luas and the new bridge. There is no way anyone can argue that it was planned well.

The idea that the NTA did no traffic planning is equally daft. DCC and NTA had a decent plan which involved significant traffic management changes to OCB and College Green and would have left the system running a lot more smoothly. Unfortunately DCC councillors didn't have the balls to proceed with it and, to make matters worse, they only vote against it a few weeks before the extension was opened to the public which left no time for a new plan. This is why everyone is scrambling to fix it.

Beta Ray Bill

markpb wrote: »

That's not hindsight, it's just silly. There was no way the Luas was ever going to run through Trinity. It's not physically viable. It's not politically viable and it would have been tied up in the courts for years as Trinity threw their considerable weight against it. We'd have spent €300m on solicitors, barristers and PR firms and not have a single piece of track to show for it.

Probably right, then again, money talks...
If they can run a motorway through peoples family homes in Wexford they can run a Luas across a couple of pitches/fields at the back of TCD.

markpb wrote: »

The idea that the NTA did no traffic planning is equally daft. DCC and NTA had a decent plan which involved significant traffic management changes to OCB and College Green and would have left the system running a lot more smoothly.

I haven't seen that plan, so I cannot comment on that. Do you have a link?

markpb wrote: »

Unfortunately DCC councillors didn't have the balls to proceed with it and, to make matters worse, they only vote against it a few weeks before the extension was opened to the public which left no time for a new plan. This is why everyone is scrambling to fix it.

DCC (which is run by Sinn Fein atm) should have voted on the plan before any work was done, not near completion.
Maybe the plan was there but there is no communication between the relevant stake holders (Which is even worse)
But like you said, everyone is scrambling to fix it. But the metal is in the ground now. It can't be fixed. All that can happen now is things like:
No Cars in zones X, Y or Z (Motorists inconvenienced)
Buses A, B, C, etc now use an alternate route (Bus users inconvenienced)

I do not drive a car into town because the traffic is mental.
I don't even come in on a motorcycle as it's still so heavy it takes a while to get through.
I do use a bicycle as it's to dangerous
I use the DART.

My problem is that DCC's solution to traffic, seems to be a total ban on cars.
I take issue with this (despite the fact I do not use the car to commute) because it is damn expensive to run a car in this country. People that have families need cars. I have a son and I've tried the whole public transport thing with a kid, it's not workable long term. You'd have your hair pulled out. Do you think dropping a child to creche/school in car, then heading back home and then heading into work on Public transport is workable? I can tell you in most parts of Dublin it most certainly is not.
I also want to have the option to drive my car into town if I am heading somewhere directly after work, not have to travel all the way home to get it.

And now DCC are angling for "You have to pay Road Tax but you cannot use most of the roads where you live during the busiest time of the week".
And it is road tax despite is officially being called motor tax. If you declare your car off the road you are not liable for it.

DCC have tried everything to stop people using their cars to go to work short of a total ban/toll at the canal's
Travel Saver Cards
Bike to work
Taxing car parking spaces in offices
Reducing lanes of traffic
Banning cars on some roads
More Bus routes
New Luas Line

None of it is working well enough. The traffic is worse than it ever was. Irish people like their cars and they'll see themselves even more out of pocket to use their cars.
DCC need to start working on: How to do we get these cars to where they want to go quickly (which will reduce the congestion) and not: How to we get rid of congestion.

No one can argue against the fact that up to now, the new Luas line has caused more congestion than it has relieved.
I find it exceptionally frustrating that they NTA/DCC/whoever continue to get it wrong time and time again.

Sam Russell

Most public transport is based on the bus. Most buses get delayed by cars. No proper enforcement is carried out against motorists that park illegally, block yellow box junctions, or use bus lanes illegally.

If the appropriate laws were enforced, the buses would travel quicker, and there would be more bus journeys because of this.

So enforce the laws that affect travel in the city centre.

Edit: Of course, using fixed and mobile cameras would make enforcement easier and possibly automatic, so why is this not done?

markpb

grahambo wrote: »

But like you said, everyone is scrambling to fix it. But the metal is in the ground now. It can't be fixed. All that can happen now is things like:
No Cars in zones X, Y or Z (Motorists inconvenienced)
Buses A, B, C, etc now use an alternate route (Bus users inconvenienced)

Fixed to me means that trams and buses are co-existing peacefully and efficiently in College Green. That can certainly be achieved.

You talk about a car ban not being an option because people can't or won't live without them. No-one is talking about a widespread ban on cars, only in the very core of the city centre. Banning cars there has numerous advantages. Luas, Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and all the private bus operators will benefit. Cyclists and pedestrians will benefit. The air quality will improve. The noise pollution levels will fall. None of this affects people driving in the suburbs or even the outer parts of the city centre.