Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

monument

rOBeRt frETt wrote: »

Victor wrote: »

Not everyone from Tallaght is going to the city centre.

no, but everyone going to the city centre is getting the grand tour of Tallaght - what's your point?

No, think about it, most people going to the city centre never go near Tallaght.

brownbeard

Sorry to interrupt the current discussion, but does anyone know about the zoning of BXD? Will the current trend of having the old stations (Harcourt, Connoly, Heuston) as the boarder of central zone and therefore have zone 2 start after Broadstone?

Aard

Interesting observation, Brownbeard. If you look at the current Zone 1 boundaries, they seem to be set at a radius of 1.5km from the Castle St side of Dublin Castle. Bearing that in mind, I'd expect the future boundary to extend to at least Broadstone-DIT stop, or quite possibly Grangegorman stop.

monument

Aard wrote: »

Interesting observation, Brownbeard. If you look at the current Zone 1 boundaries, they seem to be set at a radius of 1.5km from the Castle St side of Dublin Castle. Bearing that in mind, I'd expect the future boundary to extend to at least Broadstone-DIT stop, or quite possibly Grangegorman stop.

It would be more than a bit of a joke if the central zone ended much before Phibsborough. It would be crazy for Broadstone-DIT not to be within the central zone -- it's only 1km from the top of O'Connell Street or 1.5km from its junction with Abbey Street (Smithfield is 1.3km)‎.

Where the zone stands now:

Charlemont‎ is about 2.3km from O'Connell Street.
Heuston‎ is also about 2.3km from O'Connell Street.
However, Mayor St is only about 900m away.

But it's not just down to distance I guess.

cgcsb

I'm a bit annoyed at the Docklands having it's own zone the extension is only 1.5k long. IMO Phibsboro should be the end of central.

I think they're operating on the basis that anywhere inside the area bound by the grand canal and North Circular road is part of central.

brownbeard

cgcsb wrote: »

I think they're operating on the basis that anywhere inside the area bound by the grand canal and North Circular road is part of central.

But then what about James's, Fatima and Rialto? I wonder if there's a specific boundary or criteria that they're going by... or just what the RPA deem to be somewhat more "central" than "zone 2"

Wild Bill

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm a bit annoyed at the Docklands having it's own zone the extension is only 1.5k long.

I assume that's just so they can charge more?

monument

Wild Bill wrote: »

I assume that's just so they can charge more?

Maybe for good reason?... has the Docklands far fewer passengers that the central zone? (maybe also fewer than Red and Green 2 & 3?)

My thinking is that maybe people should pay a little more (the little more they already do pay) to contribute more to the less used section.

Without all the figures of loadings for different days and at different times, I'll freely admit that all the maybes above are there for good reason and this post is somewhat speculation on my part.

Victor

There was political interference before Luas was launched that influenced both fares and zone boundaries. The political idea was that Tallaght-Connolly and Sandyford-SSG would be charged the same even thign the distances are different, as a subsidy to 'poorer' Red Line passengers who "might need to go to a job interview or something".

I strongly suspect that the central zone originally extended to Suir Road, but this was changed when the Luas add-on for Irish Rail tickets was insisted upon.

rOBeRt frETt wrote: »

no, but everyone going to the city centre is getting the grand tour of Tallaght - what's your point?

If you want to go from Tallaght to Templeogue / Terenure / Rathfarnham / Rathmines or Citywest to Balrothery then some route is needed and the 65/b provide this service.

That the 65b includes Killinarden and Belgard Square are necessary to deliver people to where they want to go to.

Blackjack

monument wrote: »

Average speeds on one random tram between Red Cow and Museum today (the last two mins or so was on foot).



For anybody not familiar with this type of recording: This records average speeds over each minute (so max speed are higher).

The overall recordings are:

Average overall: 20.7km/h (was over 30km/h before James's)
Distance: 8.83
Max 69.6km/h

Total decent (m) : 72
Total ascent (m) : 9

Which App has produced this Graphic?

monument

MotionX-GPS -- http://gps.motionx.com/iphone/overview/

rOBeRt frETt

Victor wrote: »

There was political interference before Luas was launched that influenced both fares and zone boundaries. The political idea was that Tallaght-Connolly and Sandyford-SSG would be charged the same even thign the distances are different, as a subsidy to 'poorer' Red Line passengers who "might need to go to a job interview or something".

I strongly suspect that the central zone originally extended to Suir Road, but this was changed when the Luas add-on for Irish Rail tickets was insisted upon.

rOBeRt frETt wrote: »

no, but everyone going to the city centre is getting the grand tour of Tallaght - what's your point?

If you want to go from Tallaght to Templeogue / Terenure / Rathfarnham / Rathmines or Citywest to Balrothery then some route is needed and the 65/b provide this service.

That the 65b includes Killinarden and Belgard Square are necessary to deliver people to where they want to go to.

If I was speaking in the context of how to get from tallaght to the south suburbs then that would be relevant - however I was talking about getting to the city centre from citywest/saggart. I am all too aware of the route the 65b takes, the point is Dublin 24 is under serviced and the lack of a more direct route is evidence of that

LXFlyer

From the city centre there is still Mortons limited service that is direct along the Naas Road to Citywest, however I would imagine that their licence precludes DB from operating a more direct service to/from Citywest than they do already.

The LUAS offers a far more direct route so why should DB provide one?

The reason the 65b takes the route it does is to maximise loadings all along the route - hence it serves Killinarden and Tallaght Village. It offers a connection from those areas to Citywest as well.

rOBeRt frETt

lxflyer wrote: »

From the city centre there is still Mortons limited service that is direct along the Naas Road to Citywest, however I would imagine that their licence precludes DB from operating a more direct service to/from Citywest than they do already.

The LUAS offers a far more direct route so why should DB provide one?

The reason the 65b takes the route it does is to maximise loadings all along the route - hence it serves Killinarden and Tallaght Village. It offers a connection from those areas to Citywest as well.

Both services take far longer than the should, according to Google maps the distance is 16.8 kilometres or 10 miles (citywest hotel to IFSC)
a direct route along QBC's could possibly cover the distance in 25-30 minutes, (averaging 20 mph instead of 10).

I think Indirect pain staking routes will not entice people out of their cars, DB would not have to worry about quantity if the would only concentrate on quality of service. - you can please some of the people some of the time en all.
as an aside, I have only been living in citywest for about 4 years I grew up in Terenure, why is the bus service in the much larger catchment area of 'Tallaght' so incredibly crap?

Victor

rOBeRt frETt wrote: »

as an aside, I have only been living in citywest for about 4 years I grew up in Terenure, why is the bus service in the much larger catchment area of 'Tallaght' so incredibly crap?

(a) The near the edge of a transport system you are, the lesser the service (b) Tallaght is less densely populated than Terenure (c) class and other social distinctions.

An Cuinneach

Surely the fact that Tallaght has 100,000 people amounts for something though? I'd consider it needing better transport facilities than Terenure though I understand Terenure is closer to the city and so automatically has more routes running through it.

rOBeRt frETt

Victor wrote: »

(a) The near the edge of a transport system you are, the lesser the service (b) Tallaght is less densely populated than Terenure (c) class and other social distinctions.

Tallaght is more densely populated, and in greater need of public transport (class and social distinctions) - so I'm going to suggest all politics is local

Aard

Terenure is denser than Tallaght, as Victor's recent map shows: https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/2160/168790.png

In addition, there's no overcoming the 'funnel' effect of lines coming together towards the city centre. Terenure will always have a better bus service than Tallaght, simply because of its location. (Same goes for anywhere else closer to the centre -- Drumcondra, Marino, Cabra, Rathmines...)

I agree with you on the social side of things. However, I feel that that would be better addressed through lower fares for further-out areas. €2.40 is a lot compared to €1.25.

LXFlyer

Tallaght does have considerable public transport available - how much more do you need?

Bus routes to the city and beyond - 27, 49, 54a, 56a, 65, 65b, 77a
Orbital routes - 75, 76, 76a, 76b and 210; Dualway 2311 to Newcastle
Flybus to/from the Airport
LUAS to/from the city
Bus Eireann to/from Waterford
Mortons Citywest/DART service and Citywest/City service

rOBeRt frETt

lxflyer wrote: »

Tallaght does have considerable public transport available - how much more do you need?

Bus routes to the city and beyond - 27, 49, 54a, 56a, 65, 65b, 77a
Orbital routes - 75, 76, 76a, 76b and 210; Dualway 2311 to Newcastle
Flybus to/from the Airport
LUAS to/from the city
Bus Eireann to/from Waterford
Mortons Citywest/DART service and Citywest/City service

yeah, actually I'm only looking for One route that services citywest and doesn't take an hour to go 10 miles- thanks for the timetable though!

rOBeRt frETt

Aard wrote: »

Terenure is denser than Tallaght, as Victor's recent map shows: https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/2160/168790.png

In addition, there's no overcoming the 'funnel' effect of lines coming together towards the city centre. Terenure will always have a better bus service than Tallaght, simply because of its location. (Same goes for anywhere else closer to the centre -- Drumcondra, Marino, Cabra, Rathmines...)

I agree with you on the social side of things. However, I feel that that would be better addressed through lower fares for further-out areas. €2.40 is a lot compared to €1.25.

population density per square km - I get it now
Tallaght has a greater population but is less dense -...because mixing residential with industrial estates is a good idea

LXFlyer

rOBeRt frETt wrote: »

yeah, actually I'm only looking for One route that services citywest and doesn't take an hour to go 10 miles- thanks for the timetable though!

You referred to Tallaght rather than Citywest, hence my response above.

Citywest has the LUAS - why duplicate it with direct buses??

rOBeRt frETt

lxflyer wrote: »

rOBeRt frETt wrote: »

yeah, actually I'm only looking for One route that services citywest and doesn't take an hour to go 10 miles- thanks for the timetable though!

You referred to Tallaght rather than Citywest, hence my response above.

Citywest has the LUAS - why duplicate it with direct buses??

Because the Luas also takes an hour, hence my earlier posts, perhaps an express route along QBC's that doesn't try to cater for 12 different constituencies and aims at reducing travel times by 25-30% - ye know bat **** crazy stuff like that!

LXFlyer

rOBeRt frETt wrote: »

lxflyer wrote: »

rOBeRt frETt wrote: »

yeah, actually I'm only looking for One route that services citywest and doesn't take an hour to go 10 miles- thanks for the timetable though!

You referred to Tallaght rather than Citywest, hence my response above.

Citywest has the LUAS - why duplicate it with direct buses??

Because the Luas also takes an hour, hence my earlier posts, perhaps an express route along QBC's that doesn't try to cater for 12 different constituencies and aims at reducing travel times by 25-30% - ye know bat **** crazy stuff like that!

Unfortunately you are out on a limb where you are in Citywest. I very much doubt there would be sufficient passenger numbers to justify a direct route along the Naas Road, Tallaght Road or Greenhills Road without serving Tallaght or Clondalkin en route. For the bus service to be viable it needs to get reasonable loads all along the route.

I'd agree that the 77a is far from ideal, but frankly DB don't have the resources for a service as you suggest.

The 65b once it passes Tallaght village does follow the QBC all the way into the city.0

As for the Luas is it not about 45 minutes to Abbey stop from Citywest rather than an hour?

Wild Bill

rOBeRt frETt wrote: »

why is the bus service in the much larger catchment area of 'Tallaght' so incredibly crap?

Maybe because buses to many areas further out all pass through Terenure. With most routes terminating in, or passing through, the City Centre the closer you get to the centre the more numerous the buses.

Daft when more people work in the suburbs than the centre but ancient patterns are hard to disrupt.

What we need is a square-grid type route network covering the entire continuous built-up area.

As for buses v trams - there is no way you'll get buses going any faster - they have far more stops and conflicts than trams.

Aard

Wild Bill wrote: »

Daft when more people work in the suburbs than the centre but ancient patterns are hard to disrupt.

More people may work in the suburbs as a whole, but the city centre is still the most important destination.

Victor

Aard wrote: »

More people may work in the suburbs as a whole, but the city centre is still the most important destination.

Indeed, from page 27 here: http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/population/profile/workpoptowns.pdf

Aard

Highly informative map there. It would be interesting to do a mash-up of it with one of population.

It's obvious that the only places with 10000+ workers outside of the Dublin 2 CBD are James' and Beaumont Hospitals. The Walkinstown/Naas Rd industrial estate don't fare too badly... pity nobody lives there. Same can be seen for Blanch and Tallaght where everybody pools into the shopping centres from the grey (no jobs) sprawl. It looks like the areas that fare best in terms of work-population balance are the inner suburbs and the south bay.

All very interesting.

monument

This is also Victor's from this thread here...

Aard wrote: »

It's obvious that the only places with 10000+ workers outside of the Dublin 2 CBD are James' and Beaumont Hospitals. The Walkinstown/Naas Rd industrial estate don't fare too badly... pity nobody lives there. Same can be seen for Blanch and Tallaght where everybody pools into the shopping centres from the grey (no jobs) sprawl. It looks like the areas that fare best in terms of work-population balance are the inner suburbs and the south bay.

Not quite, a lot of the central blob is D1, D4, D8, and D7.

Wild Bill

Aard wrote: »

It's obvious that the only places with 10000+ workers outside of the Dublin 2 CBD are James' and Beaumont Hospitals.

Dun Laoghaire town centre also.

Mind you, the second map shows hardly any workers in Sandyford Industrial Estate which makes one wonder why the exits and entrances are daily jammed in all directions at work start/stop times!