Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

dubhthach

It would be interesting if the 2,500 - <10,000 section was broken up into:
2,500 - <5,000
5,000 - <10,000

As you can see Sandyford Business Park falls into this category as do areas such as Blackrock Clonskeagh and bulk of Dún Loaghaire towncentre.

crushproof

Seems like the stats are from the 2006 Census, would be interesting to see the results of the most recent census, I'd imagine there would have been a large increase in the number workers in Sandyford.

dubhthach

crushproof wrote: »

Seems like the stats are from the 2006 Census, would be interesting to see the results of the most recent census, I'd imagine there would have been a large increase in the number workers in Sandyford.

The thing to remember is the colours are based on number of workers per square km. Look at the size of the "Enumeration area" for Sandyford compare to ones in town. If it was divided in four you would probably see a good bit of variation as parts would contain more residential, others more open space etc.

Wild Bill

dubhthach wrote: »

The thing to remember is the colours are based on number of workers per square km. Look at the size of the "Enumeration area" for Sandyford compare to ones in town. If it was divided in four you would probably see a good bit of variation as parts would contain more residential, others more open space etc.

I was just about to point that out! The dark square that contains the Sandyford Industrial Estate is about 50% composed of entirely residential low-density suburb.

It would be black if it merely contained the Estate.

matc66

Just an observation but there is definitely an marked increase in activity in the disused railway line that goes from broadstone up to cabra. Some sort of drilling into the wall below the Ford garage on the NCR today, a Sunday! Also a mini-JCB digging small trenches. My guess is some sort of surveying going on.

cgcsb

Seen the construction site for the new bridge at Hawkins street last night. I'd say FG might push ahead with Luas BXD sooner than 2015 and then pat themselves on the back, saying it was finished ahead of time(Despite the circa 10 year delay).

monument

This is roughly the Dundrum-Balally Electoral Division (also here on google maps):

monument

For data reasons the Dundrum-Balally Electoral Division, where Sandyford Industrial Estate is, is one of the historically drawn ones which may need to be redrawn. One of the main other ones is the North Docklands which (unlike the south Docklands) is still lumped into the low worker and low residential port area.

cgcsb wrote: »

Seen the construction site for the new bridge at Hawkins street last night. I'd say FG might push ahead with Luas BXD sooner than 2015 and then pat themselves on the back, saying it was finished ahead of time(Despite the circa 10 year delay).

The new bridge is not just for the Luas, it's for buses as well.

Wild Bill wrote: »

I was just about to point that out! The dark square that contains the Sandyford Industrial Estate is about 50% composed of entirely residential low-density suburb.

It would be black if it merely contained the Estate.

The estate is quite mixed:



There's quite low density in some parts of the industrial area:


Even around the larger buildings there's some surface car parks and/or generous green areas -- while not unheard in the city, it is not very common at all...

dubhthach wrote: »

The thing to remember is the colours are based on number of workers per square km. Look at the size of the "Enumeration area" for Sandyford compare to ones in town. If it was divided in four you would probably see a good bit of variation as parts would contain more residential, others more open space etc.

Yes, that's important to keep in mind, but it's also worth mentioning that the worker density in town is across a large area and it would stand up if split into three areas the size of the Sandyford industrial estate ED:

Wild Bill

But if there are 10,000 workers/jobs/unit area, and half of the area contains almost no workers (outside the estate), then simple maths tells us the industrial estate has double that number per unit area; regardless of it's varying density. :cool:

That would give you a black shaded area in Sandyford almost as big in area as all the black sections combined north of the Liffey.

Aard

I don't think anybody is denying that Sandyford IE has lots of jobs.


Unlike the CC, though, it lacks life. It's somewhere people go to work. Few live there; there's no nightlife. There's immense congestion during the day, then none at night. Around the CC CBD there's a gradual tapering of job-concentration out towards the burbs, whereas in Sandyford it goes rapidly from pretty much nothing but jobs to very few.

If you're trying to make the Sandyford out to be some sort of secondary CBD, it isn't. What point are you trying to make?

monument

Wild Bill wrote: »

But if there are 10,000 workers/jobs/unit area, and half of the area contains almost no workers (outside the estate), then simple maths tells us the industrial estate has double that number per unit area; regardless of it's varying density. :cool:

That would give you a black shaded area in Sandyford almost as big in area as all the black sections combined north of the Liffey.

I'm sure somebody could look up the exact figures for the areas for 2006, but in the meanwhile it's worth saying that the colours on the map are (wide) ranges not exact figures. The darkest colour is 10,000+ and the second darkest is from 2,500 to 10,000 -- so while your guess work may be ok with the exact numbers, it's of little use with such wide ranges.

dubhthach

monument wrote: »

I'm sure somebody could look up the exact figures for the areas for 2006, but in the meanwhile it's worth saying that the colours on the map are (wide) ranges not exact figures. The darkest colour is 10,000+ and the second darkest is from 2,500 to 10,000 -- so while your guess work may be ok with the exact numbers, it's of little use with such wide ranges.

That and the range is per km². Going on the following census document the area of that electoral district is 2.61km² (261 hectares)
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/documents/census2006_press_release_volume_1.pdf

You could potentially have up to 26,000 people working in the area and still be classed in the 2,500 - < 10,000 colouration. (2.61 * 9,999 = 26,097)

Obviously there aren't that many people working there, however it does show how bad their ranges are. The other thing to note is that there is contiguous Business estates right on boundary (Leopardstown Business Park etc.) though in it's case it's in evern lower densisty area due to no doubt the racetrack and the mass of suburbia (The Gallops etc.)

robd

Lads seriously. Give over on the Sandyford Industrial Estate stuff. We're way off on a tangent here. We're talking about Luas BXD, through city centre, to Grangegorman , and onto Broombridge. The first point was valid but after that we're on a tangent.

Wild Bill

Aard wrote: »

If you're trying to make the Sandyford out to be some sort of secondary CBD, it isn't. What point are you trying to make?

I'm making the point that the unequal size of blocks make suburban employment hotspots invisible by including large areas with zero jobs, that's all. :cool:

I live in Sandyford and am therefore familiar with it - including the non-existent "life" you seem to imagine.

I'd guess huge areas in the west of the city also appear "work-less" for the same reason - thus the map gives a false impression of the amount of suburb to suburb transport that is required.

What is "CBD"?

Wild Bill

robd wrote: »

We're talking about Luas BXD, through city centre, to Grangegorman , and onto Broombridge. The first point was valid but after that we're on a tangent.

What was the first point?

dubhthach

Wild Bill wrote: »

What is "CBD"?

Central Business District -- I do think Robd is right though we have got off topic. Which should be bout Luas BXD.

Does anyone know what the predicted travel time between Broombridge and St. Stephen's green will be?

Cool Mo D

dubhthach wrote: »

Does anyone know what the predicted travel time between Broombridge and St. Stephen's green will be?

I believe that the time for the BX portion from Stephen's Green to Parnell street is supposed to be 8 minutes, according to one of the old consultation posters. I would estimate about 10 minutes from there to Broombridge, since it's a segregated alignment from Broadstone on.

monument

From the RPA's BXD FAQ page:

Q: What is the round trip journey time through the City Centre from St. Stephen’s Green and back?

A: The journey time from St. Stephen’s Green to Broombridge is expected to be in the order of 24 minutes during peak periods.

dubhthach

monument wrote: »

From the RPA's BXD FAQ page:

Q: What is the round trip journey time through the City Centre from St. Stephen’s Green and back?

A: The journey time from St. Stephen’s Green to Broombridge is expected to be in the order of 24 minutes during peak periods.

Badly worded that, the question says "Round trip" but the answer gives impression that it's talking purely bout time between the two end-points. So I'm reading it as 12minutes each way. Opinions?

Wild Bill

dubhthach wrote: »

Badly worded that, the question says "Round trip" but the answer gives impression that it's talking purely bout time between the two end-points. So I'm reading it as 12minutes each way. Opinions?

I'd say "round-trip" is a mistake - single journey time can't be 12 minutes.

cgcsb

24 seems a little long to me, maybe 20, it's not that far. Does anyone know if they decided to have the luas cross constitution hill on elevated tracks or on surface tracks?

The surface option would definitely be a nightmare.

AngryLips

Did I read somewhere that the stops along the old Broadstone alignment won't be widened to accomodate platforms? And that, as a result, the platforms will be narrower than usual with ticket machines located at street level to free up space? Might this present a problem?

robd

cgcsb wrote: »

24 seems a little long to me, maybe 20, it's not that far. Does anyone know if they decided to have the luas cross constitution hill on elevated tracks or on surface tracks?

The surface option would definitely be a nightmare.

The street maps @ http://www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie/ appear to show it crossing at street level.

Terrible idea (much like original Red Cow) but there you go. To be honest at this stage I'd take anything. Just build the thing. A bridge could be put in at a later date if and when it proves to be a traffic disaster (like Red Cow).

See http://www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie/Downloads/PlanofProposedWorks/01-ALIGNMENT_PROPERTY/08_BXD_RO_29_D-E.pdf

cgcsb

robd wrote: »

The street maps @ http://www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie/ appear to show it crossing at street level.

Terrible idea (much like original Red Cow) but there you go. To be honest at this stage I'd take anything. Just build the thing. A bridge could be put in at a later date if and when it proves to be a traffic disaster (like Red Cow).

See http://www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie/Downloads/PlanofProposedWorks/01-ALIGNMENT_PROPERTY/08_BXD_RO_29_D-E.pdf

the traffic at that junction is an absolute nightmare at present, I don't see how an on street alignment can be the favourable option. Also, if you look at the gradients, the bridge option makes more sense. The actual road is pretty much in a ditch.

cgcsb

AngryLips wrote: »

Did I read somewhere that the stops along the old Broadstone alignment won't be widened to accomodate platforms? And that, as a result, the platforms will be narrower than usual with ticket machines located at street level to free up space? Might this present a problem?

the railway ditch is about 8.5metres wide as far as I can tell. As far as I know there is about 5.5m required for luas track, that'd leaves 2.8 metres for platforms and .2metres wiggle room give or take. It'll be tight, but should fit. The ticket machines aren't really big, It should fit. The plans show how they fit them in.

monument

AngryLips wrote: »

Did I read somewhere that the stops along the old Broadstone alignment won't be widened to accomodate platforms? And that, as a result, the platforms will be narrower than usual with ticket machines located at street level to free up space? Might this present a problem?

cgcsb wrote: »

the railway ditch is about 8.5metres wide as far as I can tell. As far as I know there is about 5.5m required for luas track, that'd leaves 2.8 metres for platforms and .2metres wiggle room give or take. It'll be tight, but should fit. The ticket machines aren't really big, It should fit. The plans show how they fit them in.

Search the page or scroll down "Structures Drawings" on dublinluasbroombridge.ie to see all the details of the stops. This is the PDF for the plan of the Phibsborough Stop.

The Phibsborough Stop -- [URL="http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,714571,735830,7,10
The plans show the "]located in a key location[/URL] between and near the junction of the Cabra and North Circular Road -- is in the narrowest part of the Broadstone alignment and the the ticket vending machines are at street level, to keep the platform as wide as possible.

The plans of the other stops show the platforms as being wide -- Cabra is really the only other in the alignment and it has wide platforms and loads of extra space (it shows tree planting behind the platforms there).

robd wrote: »

The street maps @ http://www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie/ appear to show it crossing at street level.

Terrible idea (much like original Red Cow) but there you go. To be honest at this stage I'd take anything. Just build the thing. A bridge could be put in at a later date if and when it proves to be a traffic disaster (like Red Cow).

See http://www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie/Downloads/PlanofProposedWorks/01-ALIGNMENT_PROPERTY/08_BXD_RO_29_D-E.pdf

cgcsb wrote: »

24 seems a little long to me, maybe 20, it's not that far. Does anyone know if they decided to have the luas cross constitution hill on elevated tracks or on surface tracks?

The surface option would definitely be a nightmare.

Surface option here is more comparable to the crossing at Church Street but Constitution Hill has less congestion and better sight lines. Traffic levels nowhere like the Red Cow, Luas can be given good priority here, and traffic light enforcement cameras should work a wonder.

cgcsb wrote: »

the traffic at that junction is an absolute nightmare at present, I don't see how an on street alignment can be the favourable option. Also, if you look at the gradients, the bridge option makes more sense. The actual road is pretty much in a ditch.

The longitudinal section for this section seems to be missing from the website, but it is shown with the stop drawings.

The Broadstone-DIT stop is at around the same level as that junction and under the current ground level of the front of Broadstone.

cgcsb

monument wrote: »

Luas can be given good priority here, and traffic light enforcement cameras should work a wonder.

that wont be the case though, under designing is Ireland's speciality.

robd

robd wrote: »

The street maps @ http://www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie/ appear to show it crossing at street level.

Terrible idea (much like original Red Cow) but there you go. To be honest at this stage I'd take anything. Just build the thing. A bridge could be put in at a later date if and when it proves to be a traffic disaster (like Red Cow).

See http://www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie/Downloads/PlanofProposedWorks/01-ALIGNMENT_PROPERTY/08_BXD_RO_29_D-E.pdf

I don't disagree. The cynic in me thinks that the RPA are deliberately implementing the Luas as an on street system with little segregation so that it doesn't compete or take away from Metro North. Of course the landscape has changed so it should be improved but probably won't.

Aard

dubhthach wrote: »

Badly worded that, the question says "Round trip" but the answer gives impression that it's talking purely bout time between the two end-points. So I'm reading it as 12minutes each way. Opinions?

A sketch on Google maps shows a distance of ~5.8km for BXD. Compare that with ~5.6 for SSG>Dundrum. The latter trip takes 15 minutes, and the only non-segregated sections are a crossing at Beechwood, and Harcourt>SSG. BSD otoh has at least 5 sharp turns, including the very sharp Marlborough>Parnell. There's also at least 3km of it on-street -- the same distance as Heuston>Connolly which itself takes 15 mins.

So 15 mins for the on-street BXD, and another 7 mins for the 3km from Broombridge to Broadstone. It'd be at least 22 minutes, so I'd imagine their estimate of 24 minutes is for a one-way trip.

Victor

cgcsb wrote: »

24 seems a little long to me, maybe 20, it's not that far. Does anyone know if they decided to have the luas cross constitution hill on elevated tracks or on surface tracks?

The surface option would definitely be a nightmare.

Not as bad as one might think, traffic from Western Way can turn right and pedestrians can cross a the same time as trams.