Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

cgcsb

Victor wrote: »

Not as bad as one might think, traffic from Western Way can turn right and pedestrians can cross a the same time as trams.

in theory but in practice, DCC won't work with the RPA. Look at O'Connell street when the luas is crossing, O'Connell street the lights could just go green for east-west pedestrians, but they don't. A bridge over western way and more extreme segregation is the way to go.

markpb

cgcsb wrote: »

in theory but in practice, DCC won't work with the RPA. Look at O'Connell street when the luas is crossing, O'Connell street the lights could just go green for east-west pedestrians, but they don't.

I asked DCC about this two years ago. They said the lights were originally setup like you said but too many people assumed that if one set of lights were green, both were and walked im front of the Luas. The lights were changed to their current configuration for safety.

Victor

markpb wrote: »

I asked DCC about this two years ago. They said the lights were originally setup like you said but too many people assumed that if one set of lights were green, both were and walked im front of the Luas. The lights were changed to their current configuration for safety.

Yeah, I got a similar reply from the (I think) the RPA.

monument

That's insanity.

It just adds to the reasons for pedestrians to ignore traffic lights even more.

cgcsb

markpb wrote: »

I asked DCC about this two years ago. They said the lights were originally setup like you said but too many people assumed that if one set of lights were green, both were and walked im front of the Luas. The lights were changed to their current configuration for safety.

But they can see the appropriate traffic light and the oncoming luas. How come at other junctions it is possible to have pedestrian and vehicle movements at the same time(granted Irish motorists sometimes don't know the difference between a circular green light and a green arrow)?

To be honest that sounds like a BS answer and it smacks of laziness on behalf of the council and RPA,

An Cuinneach

Thanks for the links guys - some great illustrations there. Had no idea that the line would split in two, with one arm heading up O'Connell Street. Looks great!

strassenwo!f

I haven't been in Dublin for a while, but would it be a fair guess that something akin to the old aqueduct across Constitution Hill cannot be recreated because some building is now in the way?

I seem to recall a discussion on archiseek.com about a landmark building in or around there. Would this building have any impact on rebuilding a bridge across this main road?

strassenwo!f

And was the potential route of the LUAS a factor in the granting of planning permission for this development?

cgcsb

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I haven't been in Dublin for a while, but would it be a fair guess that something akin to the old aqueduct across Constitution Hill cannot be recreated because some building is now in the way?

I seem to recall a discussion on archiseek.com about a landmark building in or around there. Would this building have any impact on rebuilding a bridge across this main road?

the henderson building wouldn't be affected by the luas line, it's a good bit back from the proposed bridge.

Victor

See the images of Broadstone and the Foster Aqueduct here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadstone,_Dublin

Broadstone http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Constitution+Hill,+Smithfield,+Dublin&hl=en&ll=53.3536,-6.273751&spn=0.004086,0.01929&sll=53.356123,-6.272919&sspn=0.009016,0.01929&oq=constitution+Hill,+Dublin&hnear=Constitution+Hill,+Smithfield,+Dublin,+County+Dublin&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.353594,-6.27375&panoid=9DdKFHaTPaE_3zV4PyXpOA&cbp=11,354.36,,0,1.6 The Luas stop is planned for the front of the station building, at a lower level.

Kings Inns http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Constitution+Hill,+Smithfield,+Dublin&hl=en&ll=53.352972,-6.273108&spn=0.004086,0.01929&sll=53.356123,-6.272919&sspn=0.009016,0.01929&oq=constitution+Hill,+Dublin&hnear=Constitution+Hill,+Smithfield,+Dublin,+County+Dublin&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.352966,-6.273107&panoid=F-dTwz8B91Ya3Uaq-6Vq-Q&cbp=11,103.05,,0,-0.7

This building was built on the site of hte bungalow that was nearest to the city centre: http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Constitution+Hill,+Smithfield,+Dublin&hl=en&ll=53.354996,-6.273494&spn=0.004085,0.01929&sll=53.356123,-6.272919&sspn=0.009016,0.01929&oq=constitution+Hill,+Dublin&hnear=Constitution+Hill,+Smithfield,+Dublin,+County+Dublin&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.35491,-6.273478&panoid=dmUijIoa13vxnH2OXmxgaQ&cbp=12,93.27,,0,0.93

monument

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I haven't been in Dublin for a while, but would it be a fair guess that something akin to the old aqueduct across Constitution Hill cannot be recreated because some building is now in the way?

I seem to recall a discussion on archiseek.com about a landmark building in or around there. Would this building have any impact on rebuilding a bridge across this main road?

No, that's not correct.

There is northing much in the way of what was first the aqueduct and later a wider road bridge.

After the bridge was removed completely, both the Phibsborough Road and Constitution Hill was risen up a bit at the end of each to meet the new (ie the current) junction. And the ground where the west end of Western Way now is was lowered.



You can still see where the bridge end is on Google Maps:

robd

cgcsb wrote: »

the henderson building wouldn't be affected by the luas line, it's a good bit back from the proposed bridge.

There's no proposed bridge. The proposal (which to be honest I disagree with) is to cross Constitution Hill at street level. The bridge was an option that seems not to have been chosen.

cgcsb

robd wrote: »

There's no proposed bridge. The proposal (which to be honest I disagree with) is to cross Constitution Hill at street level. The bridge was an option that seems not to have been chosen.

It was proposed at one stage, hence "proposed". If plans for the bridge are dropped, that's a shame, no ambition at all in the RPA.

Wild Bill

cgcsb wrote: »

no ambition at all in the RPA.

No money at all - it's gone to pay for German bank loans :mad:

Irish and Proud

Wild Bill wrote: »

No money at all - it's gone to pay for German bank loans :mad:

The Eurocrats talk about capitalism - they don't even know the meaning of the word FFS!

AFAIK Capitalism = Taking a risk by investment with a view to capitalizing on a potential market in order to obtain a greater return.

Bond holders getting paid in full regardless of economic/financial circumstances does not equate to risk - it equates to social welfare for business failure! :mad:

I certainly don't dig liberal capitalism, but what's now happening globally isn't even capitalism!

Regards!

cgcsb

Wild Bill wrote: »

No money at all - it's gone to pay for German bank loans :mad:

They had little or no regard for the public purse when they "selected" the needlessly expensive metro north route and the needlessly expensive BXD loop route. Then when it comes to the sensible separation of modes by building a small bridge there's "no money".

Victor

Irish and Proud wrote: »

The Eurocrats talk about capitalism - they don't even know the meaning of the work FFS!

AFAIK Capitalism = Taking a risk by investment with a view to capitalizing on a potential market in order to obtain a greater return.

Bond holders getting paid in full regardless of economic/financial circumstances does not equate to risk - it equates to social welfare for business failure! :mad:

I certainly don't dig liberal capitalism, but what's now happening globally isn't even capitalism!

Regards!

Lets not go there. There are other forums for such discussions.

Wild Bill

cgcsb wrote: »

the needlessly expensive metro north route and the needlessly expensive BXD loop route.

It is a national disgrace that the very valuable Metro North was abandoned in favour of paying German gambling debts. :mad:

If we are going with a mickey-mouse Luas scheme might as well build it in mickey-mouse fashion.

markpb

News about this today on RTE.ie

An Bord Pleanála has expressed concern that the proposed Luas link-up in Dublin city centre would interfere with future development of the DART Underground and Metro North projects.

Construction of the LUAS link line BXD was originally scheduled to take place after completion of the two underground lines. The board points out that the LUAS line will be above three planned Metro stations and one for the DART Underground.

In a letter to the Rail Procurement Agency (RPA), the board states it is not clear how future works can be carried out while keeping the BXD line open. It would also have reservations about any proposal to suspend or replace this Luas service. The Metro North and Underground DART projects have been given the go-ahead by An Bord Pleanála. But these plans were shelved in the Government's spending review last November because of the combined cost estimated at €5bn.
The Government said it would go-ahead with BXD, which is estimated to cost €300m.

An oral hearing on the BXD application was completed before the Government announced the suspension of the underground projects. A decision on BXD was expected soon, but in its request for further information the board warns that any modification of existing plans would need fresh approvals. It also wants the National Transport Authority to approve the response of the RPA. A spokesman for the RPA said it was confident that the concerns of the board could be addressed. It has until the end of March to respond.

monument

Using just Marlborough Street could solve a lot of the problems with the Metro stations as well as other problems (the O'Connell Street medium).

The letter http://www.pleanala.ie/news/NA0004_F_I_Request.pdf

ABP are to commission an independent report on having no overhead wires in the city centre -- the RPA are against this, but ABP say they are not satisfied with the information provided so-far.

They also want to see a new option on Dawson Street of a platform in the middle of the tracks serving both directions (like Busaras etc).

AngryLips

Why on earth is the RPA still in existence now that we have the NTA? I thought the plan was to rationalise the number of quangos not multiply them...

dowlingm

I worry about vendor lock-in and obsolescence with no-wire light rail. At least the technology for overhead is reasonably vendor neutral, things haven't changed too much since pantographs went in (Toronto is currently converting from trolley pole to panto but that's the joys of a legacy system)

As for the discussion of how LUAS BXD plans conflict with infrastructure already approved - facepalm.

Aard

I still can't get over how the wires thing is even an issue. Nobody goes to Amsterdam and complains about the wires. Tbh, I wouldn't be surprised if it's just that somebody with a loud voice had taken a trip down the Côte d'Azur and noticed that le tramway was wire-free for a stretch or two and that Dublin had to have it.

At worst, wires are just another element of the urban streetscape. And ones that aren't exactly obstructive at that. Double-decker neon yellow busses are worse. Naked poles and duplicative streetlamps are worse. Poor paving transitions, and hostile pedestrian crossings are worse.

I think we can deal with a few wires.

AngryLips

Personally, I think anyone pushing a wire-free agenda is essentially pushing an anti-Luas agenda. If you're going to be hostile to the entire concept of modern public transport and the prevailing consensus that cars should be restricted from the city centre then just say so, don't disguise it as some sort of trumped-up concern for maintaining the integrity of the public realm when most people in this country (and I'm not one of them) couldn't give a s*** about the quality of our public spaces.

monument

There's no harm for ABP to explore the options if they think that they have not gotten the full picture. I'm fairly neutral on for wire-free for historic city centres, but you can't deny that they look slick:

An Cuinneach

monument wrote: »

There's no harm for ABP to explore the options if they think that they have not gotten the full picture. I'm fairly neutral on for wire-free for historic city centres, but you can't deny that they look slick:

Wów. They do look great.

Comeagain

I think they look great too. Saw them in France last year.

LaFlammeRouge

Pedestrian College Green!!

dowlingm

I wonder if Alstom even offer the Nice version Citadis any more? The other wireless deployments since have been APS - except for the flywheel version in Rotterdam (PDF)

bk

I'm not one bit surprised by this, I previously warned about these issues.

It makes no sense at all to build Luas BXD over the planned locations of Metro North and DART Underground.

Yes MN and DU may not happen for another 10 or 20 years, but they will happen, they are fundamentally very necessary projects and we should be planning and preparing for them.

This issue and the issue of overhead wires in historical locations could be completely avoided if the LUAS was routed down Marlborough Street in both directions and around the back of Trinity, Route Option B:
http://www.rpa.ie/Maps/Luas%20Line%20BX/Luas%20City%20Centre%20Link%20Up%20Line%20BX%20Route%20Option%20B.map.jpg