Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

Ted Mosby

bk wrote: »

Perhaps because we have different standards today then we did back 100 years ago.

Pictures of the streets back then show an ugly mesh of cables.

To use a well worn phrase, "who's we, Paleface?"

Perhaps costing the conversion of all the existing Luas units that will run on the expanded Green line and the cost of laying a conduit wiring system will concentrate minds a little as to the desirability of a wire free Luas from the Green to the Broadstone.

Wireless will not be a cost free option.

bk

Ted Mosby wrote: »

Perhaps costing the conversion of all the existing Luas units that will run on the expanded Green line and the cost of laying a conduit wiring system will concentrate minds a little as to the desirability of a wire free Luas from the Green to the Broadstone.

Or you could just take the alternative route which avoids the front of the GPO and Trinity and therefore could use wires and would probably be cheaper anyway as it doesn't require the splitting of the line on O'Connell St.

Jehuty42

Maybe I'm just too OCD about these things, but the lack of symmetry of the current BXD O'Connell St routing is painful to me. A single track with associated OHLE down one side of the street, then onto the central median, and a station as well? Ugh. To me a wide boulevard like O'Connell St should be symmetrical and give each side equal visual precedence.

The idea of putting the busier (due to the large residential demand on the current Green Line + the established commuting mindset in aread already served by Luas) station at darker, duskier peak times, the southbound one on Marlbourough St, in an undesirable and manky area seems uncomfortable to me.

Wild Bill

dowlingm wrote: »

feel free to give us the benefit of your smartassery anyway.

You got it! Better a smartass than a dumb ass I guess :cool:

Most European cities are not laid out in grids, btw.

Wild Bill

robd wrote: »

As I said the corners of those buildings would have to be mined under. It's really not that difficult to do as tunnels go. A TBM is not the only way of digging under something with cut and cover. There's various methods each with their own merit for a particular situation.

What you don't appreciate is that things that are routine engineering molehills in other cities become impossible mountains in the the minds of the Dublin chattering class

Think of the Traitors Gate in St Stephens Green and the complete impossibility of constructing a metro under it without destroying civilization as we know it.

And the port tunnel....

And on and on and on.....zzzzzzzzzz

cgcsb

why is DCC suddenly pretending that they care about things that are visually intrusive? what about those giant trees on college green? what about the endless amount of polls and signage pointing to random car parks and various shopping centres?

donvito99

Perhaps a stop at Marlborough St would lead to bigger and better things for that locale?

Wild Bill

cgcsb wrote: »

those giant trees on college green?

Those trees are not intrusive; they make College Green. There are not nearly enough large trees on Dublin City streets; think of London or Paris or those shady squares in Rome.

On the other hand overhead wires are not only intrusive but ugly as well - though I could live with them for tram lines.

On balance, I'd have to say that DCCs visual acuity and taste is rather superior to some of the pundits here :cool:

As for preferring to look at trams than cars...:rolleyes:

However a motor tunnel would solve some of the gradient issues that seem to confound some naysayers here - so I might go with that.

From the tram users point of view the key thing is not to get caught in traffic - the tunnel could help that regardless of which mode goes underground.

Personally, I like rail transport systems that go in and out of tunnels and over viaducts; all-street-level solutions are tedious.

Jehuty42

cgcsb wrote: »

why is DCC suddenly pretending that they care about things that are visually intrusive? what about those giant trees on college green? what about the endless amount of polls and signage pointing to random car parks and various shopping centres?

If you read the full quote, the council kind of owns up to that:

The council was particularly concerned about the effect such a cable system would have on College Green, Mr Gleeson said. The buildings, including Trinity College and the Bank of Ireland, were of such architectural quality and rarity that they should not be compromised, he said.

“While College Green currently suffers from an excess of hostile traffic and from various aspects of clutter including over-scaled planting, the relationship of buildings and space constitutes a dramatic urban composition and is the city’s most important urban space.”

Wild Bill

Jehuty42 wrote: »

the council kind of owns up

Nah. It merely expresses an opinion. :cool:

And I'd never mistake local "rarity" for quality.

strassenwo!f

And one other thing which puzzles me about this suggested tunnel under TCD:

How would it integrate with the Lucan LUAS, which (when it is built) is proposed to terminate at College Green?

dowlingm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And one other thing which puzzles me about this suggested tunnel under TCD:

How would it integrate with the Lucan LUAS, which (when it is built) is proposed to terminate at College Green?

By the time Lucan Luas gets a goahead trams will be able to levitate over obstacles :rolleyes:

robd

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And one other thing which puzzles me about this suggested tunnel under TCD:

How would it integrate with the Lucan LUAS, which (when it is built) is proposed to terminate at College Green?

Phase 1 (Branded F1: Lucan Luas) of the Lucan Luas will use the current red line from Blackhourse. Phase 2 is to add a section to branch off at Fatima and run via Dame St (Branded F2: Luas Liberties). In terms of maintenance it will be able to link up with Red Line already.

In terms of passengers you have to walk around the corner to Westmorland St. stop anyway. Would it make a huge difference to walk around the corner to Hawkins St stop, 100m extra away.

See http://www.rpa.ie/Maps/Luas%20Line%20F/LuasLineFMapV2%20201008.jpg

I don't think running a Luas on street along Thomas St., High Street, Lord Edward St. and Dame Street is much of a runner anyway. The route interferes with 3 of the main traffic arteries in/out of the city and is over an area of historic importance. Again it would be better if they looked at tunneling for the section in the city (from Fatima to College Green). There's already low quality on street route that can be used in the interim. Why duplicate it. When capacity is a problem build a new high quality segregated section. In doing this, they could also take a route much further South which would skip the archaeologically sensitive area around Dublin castle.

cgcsb

strassenwo!f wrote: »

And one other thing which puzzles me about this suggested tunnel under TCD:

How would it integrate with the Lucan LUAS, which (when it is built) is proposed to terminate at College Green?

not a chance of luas getting down lord edward st anyway. Realistically the only routing is down oliver plunket street, cook st and in a cut and cover tunnel starting in the civic offices and running down essex street through fleet street.

Victor

cgcsb wrote: »

oliver plunket street,

Oliver Bond Street.

cgcsb wrote: »

a cut and cover tunnel starting in the civic offices and running down essex street through fleet street.

To get through the likes of this: http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Essex+Street+East,+Dublin&hl=en&ll=53.345149,-6.265152&spn=0.001624,0.005284&sll=53.401034,-8.307638&sspn=6.644571,21.643066&hnear=Essex+St+E,+Dublin+2&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.345418,-6.265157&panoid=_cXfcjKxbpjq8mKRkre0Wg&cbp=12,258.8,,0,-0.37 you would need an over and under arrangement, which has the problem of: http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Essex+Street+East,+Dublin&hl=en&ll=53.34619,-6.266112&spn=0.001636,0.005284&sll=53.401034,-8.307638&sspn=6.644571,21.643066&hnear=Essex+St+E,+Dublin+2&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.346197,-6.266055&panoid=Y8LoL1qth8MYuE4GAQkPlg&cbp=12,156.82,,3,3.78

I think the more southern route via The Coombe-Kevin Street would be better - diversity and resilience.

robd

Victor wrote: »

I think the more southern route via The Coombe-Kevin Street would be better - diversity and resilience.

Sounds sensible to me.

cgcsb

Victor wrote: »

Oliver Bond Street.

To get through the likes of this: http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Essex+Street+East,+Dublin&hl=en&ll=53.345149,-6.265152&spn=0.001624,0.005284&sll=53.401034,-8.307638&sspn=6.644571,21.643066&hnear=Essex+St+E,+Dublin+2&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.345418,-6.265157&panoid=_cXfcjKxbpjq8mKRkre0Wg&cbp=12,258.8,,0,-0.37 you would need an over and under arrangement, which has the problem of:

it'll fit, I'm a great squeezer.

Victor wrote: »

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Essex+Street+East,+Dublin&hl=en&ll=53.34619,-6.266112&spn=0.001636,0.005284&sll=53.401034,-8.307638&sspn=6.644571,21.643066&hnear=Essex+St+E,+Dublin+2&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=53.346197,-6.266055&panoid=Y8LoL1qth8MYuE4GAQkPlg&cbp=12,156.82,,3,3.78

I think the more southern route via The Coombe-Kevin Street would be better - diversity and resilience.

is it central enough though?

Chris_5339762

Was routing it somehow though Temple Bar ever considered? Seems to me it would avoid the College Green issues and would give the Luas to somewhere that would be very popular with tourists. It could then be put on a new bridge across the Liffey and (somehow) link up with the Red line before heading north up O'Connell street.

Wild Bill

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Was routing it somehow though Temple Bar ever considered? Seems to me it would avoid the College Green issues and would give the Luas to somewhere that would be very popular with tourists. It could then be put on a new bridge across the Liffey and (somehow) link up with the Red line before heading north up O'Connell street.

Jeez! Easier to dig a few tunnels

Jehuty42

So even though we all may agree Route option B for BXD is the better option, is there any chance if it happening? Surely there would have to be whole new set of EIS, a new RO and planning application done and other things that will put the cost and timescale too high to justify continuing with the project.

trellheim

Was routing it somehow though Temple Bar ever considered? Seems to me it would avoid the College Green issues and would give the Luas to somewhere that would be very popular with tourists. It could then be put on a new bridge across the Liffey and (somehow) link up with the Red line before heading north up O'Connell street.

South King St, South William St, Trinity St, cross Dame St in front of CB, turn left up Temple Bar, turn right at Eustace St, cross Liffey, up Jervis St, cross Red Line at Jervis ,turn right onto Parnell St, join mainline traffic. .

Bingo. ( sorry went loony with the crayons there, sorry )

Stops at Exchequer St intersect, Central Bank, Jervis, Parnell St and Rotunda.

Winters

A bit akin to how the Interconnector alignment came about, if you were to route a tunnel under Trinity College would you not be better off continuing underground till say.. Ballymun?

And on the subject of the Lucan Luas City Centre section (T21) or the South City orbital alignment (PfC), I think we can all agree that they were pie in the sky. If any LRT line will be serving Lucan/Liffey Valley then it'll be a branch off the Red Line.

cgcsb

Jehuty42 wrote: »

So even though we all may agree Route option B for BXD is the better option, is there any chance if it happening? Surely there would have to be whole new set of EIS, a new RO and planning application done and other things that will put the cost and timescale too high to justify continuing with the project.

ehh no, that route would be too long.

Ted Mosby

Jehuty42 wrote: »

So even though we all may agree Route option B for BXD is the better option, is there any chance if it happening? Surely there would have to be whole new set of EIS, a new RO and planning application done and other things that will put the cost and timescale too high to justify continuing with the project.

I'll dissent with some vehemence from that "we".

monument

Leo Varadkar said last week that there is apparently no big deal over the conflicts of building BXD before the Metro and Dart stations, from the Dail record:

I propose to take Questions Nos. 13, 38, 43 and 46 together.

The railway order application for Luas BXD was submitted by the Railway Procurement Agency, RPA, to An Bord Pleanála in June 2010 and the oral hearing for the scheme concluded in April 2011.

An Bord Pleanála wrote recently to the RPA seeking submissions and observations on matters relating to the railway order application including interface issues between BXD and metro north and the DART underground projects. It also wrote to the National Transport Authority, NTA, on this matter given the latter’s responsibility for public transport provision and integration in the greater Dublin area and sought the authority’s confirmation for the overall approach to be adopted in developing these projects.

An Bord Pleanála also asked the RPA to re-examine the location of one of the proposed stops in Dawson Street. It also indicated it would commission an independent study on an alternative to overhead cables in the city centre.

As part of the detailed preparations for the comprehensive capital review last year, consideration was given to the sequencing of these major projects as well as the funding issues. In this regard, various options relating to sequencing were examined by the RPA and the NTA and their advice was taken into account by me in reaching conclusions on the priorities for funding to 2016.

Both the RPA and the NTA advised me that BXD could proceed to construction in a manner which ensures the subsequent ability to develop metro north and DART underground is preserved. I understand they will be responding to the request for additional information from An Bord Pleanála over the coming weeks.

Subject to the granting of the railway order this year, essential pre-construction works could begin in 2013 with the main works scheduled to begin in 2015.

.......

The projects were discussed in great detail. When the revised capital plan to 2016 was decided upon, one question that arose, and one on which I and the Minister of State, Deputy Kelly, sought assurances, was that if the Luas BXD went ahead first, whether it would still be possible to build metro north and the DART underground without having to close down the BXD line for several months. A series of discussions and documents exchanged between the RPA and the NTA showed it could be done. There may need to be temporary restrictions from time to time but it should be possible to work on the other projects without shutting down the BXD line or digging it up.

An Bord Pleanála’s request for additional information is reasonable. We all know this from our involvement in the planning process. The information will be made available to An Bord Pleanála soon.

The Luas line will run to Broombridge station. There are three reasons as to why we are not just linking up the two Luas lines but extending them to Broombridge. First, it is to regenerate the areas along the route such as Cabra, Phibsboro and Stoneybatter. Second, it will give life to the DIT Grangegorman project when it goes ahead. Third, it will create an interchange at Broombridge, significantly upgrading that station, and link the Luas network to the Maynooth line allowing people, for example, to get on a train at Leixlip, switch at Broombridge and go on to Dundrum.

Winters wrote: »

And on the subject of the Lucan Luas City Centre section (T21) or the South City orbital alignment (PfC), I think we can all agree that they were pie in the sky. If any LRT line will be serving Lucan/Liffey Valley then it'll be a branch off the Red Line.

The Lucan Luas was really a branch of the red line. See map here.

There was planned to be shared running along the Blackhorse and Fatima section.

L1011

monument wrote: »

The Lucan Luas was really a branch of the red line. See map here.

There was planned to be shared running along the Blackhorse and Fatima section.

I wouldn't call a line with a completely distinct route for the bulk of its length to be a "branch". Sharing the mostly grade-seperated canal/former canal section of the Red line is sensible but doesn't made it a branch of the Red.

Wild Bill

MYOB wrote: »

I wouldn't call a line with a completely distinct route for the bulk of its length to be a "branch". Sharing the mostly grade-seperated canal/former canal section of the Red line is sensible but doesn't made it a branch of the Red.

There's lots of land along the canal to add another set of tracks.

In fact they could swing right at Suir Rd and build a line to meet the Dort at Barrow St.

Winters

They looked at that, not feasible. A mixture of gradients at the canal crossings as well as traffic/junction issues. Also low ridership and low density along the route. The CBA didnt add up.

Referring to the issue of the Lucan 'branch' - it originated as a branch in PfC but changed into its own stand alone line in T21 with its own depot and only sharing a short stretch of the red line alignment.

Aard

Any link to the CBA (or indeed any other reports) on the previously proposed line along the Grand Canal? Can't seem to find any info on the RPA site. I'd be very interested in reading it, as I've often thought that it would be a good idea...

LaFlammeRouge

Aard wrote: »

Any link to the CBA (or indeed any other reports) on the previously proposed line along the Grand Canal? Can't seem to find any info on the RPA site. I'd be very interested in reading it, as I've often thought that it would be a good idea...

I was interested in seeing that too. This map is the best I could find (from Platform for Change):



A fairly mad idea.