Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

[Jackass]

RE the airport, whilst it doesn't have to be an end of line Luas (although could be, via swords, where there would be massive demand going back the other way into town, which would justify the small extension to the airport EVEN IF there was little demand for it), it's a pretty basic function of every major city in the developed world to have express rail connections from city to airport and vice versa.

We're one of the only ones who doesn't. Tens of Thousands of passengers pass through Dublin Airport each day, and Swords has a bigger population than many cities in Ireland.

I think you'd be surprised at how much demand there would be.

Winters

[Jackass] wrote: »

Tens of Thousands of passengers pass through Dublin Airport each day, and Swords has a bigger population than many cities in Ireland.

One really has to ask the question how Swords was let sprawl with only buses to support it. The car dependency in Swords is ridiculous.

unklerosco

Winters wrote: »

One really has to ask the question how Swords was let sprawl with only buses to support it. The car dependency in Swords is ridiculous.

Totally agree... I've lived here the past 2 years, spent most of my life in Clondalkin which is well served now with the Luas, bus routes and a train station.

I couldn't imagine not having a car out in Swords. Considering the size of Swords and it's population I think it's mad that it's the only form of public transport.. And you can forget about trying to get down to Malahide in the morn to get the dart, traffic is mad with people dropping kids to school... I think a Luas line from Swords via the airport or vice versa etc. would be well used.

BrianD

[Jackass] wrote: »

RE the airport, whilst it doesn't have to be an end of line Luas (although could be, via swords, where there would be massive demand going back the other way into town, which would justify the small extension to the airport EVEN IF there was little demand for it), it's a pretty basic function of every major city in the developed world to have express rail connections from city to airport and vice versa.

This is Dublin Airport - we cut our cloth to the measure required. If money is no object build.

We're one of the only ones who doesn't. Tens of Thousands of passengers pass through Dublin Airport each day, and Swords has a bigger population than many cities in Ireland.

It's a national airport so I would expect this but they all don't go to the city centre. You didn't mention Swords in your original post.

I think you'd be surprised at how much demand there would be.

And given the sprawl, bus is the most efficient way of serving them with public transport.

carlmango11

Winters wrote: »

One really has to ask the question how Swords was let sprawl with only buses to support it. The car dependency in Swords is ridiculous.

I couldn't agree more. Like was there any planing at all!? It makes me furious to think people actually got paid to ensure these sort of basic planning mishaps don't happen. Dublin has just become one big ugly, identityless housing estate.

Joko

In fairness you can get a bus to the city centre from Swords in 30mins.

markpb

Joko wrote: »

In fairness you can get a bus to the city centre from Swords in 30mins.

You •might• make it in 30 minutes. That's if there's no traffic, if you don't go into the airport, there isn't a queue turning into Omni, there isn't a game on in Croke Park, a parade on O'Connell st, a crash or broken down bus anywhere amd everyone isn't blocking the bus lane at N1/Collins Ave.

Joko

markpb wrote: »

You •might• make it in 30 minutes. That's if there's no traffic, if you don't go into the airport, there isn't a queue turning into Omni, there isn't a game on in Croke Park, a parade on O'Connell st, a crash or broken down bus anywhere amd everyone isn't blocking the bus lane at N1/Collins Ave.

Yeah none of the above effects the Swords Express

Victor

carlmango11 wrote: »

I couldn't agree more. Like was there any planing at all!? It makes me furious to think people actually got paid to ensure these sort of basic planning mishaps don't happen. Dublin has just become one big ugly, identityless housing estate.

Ray Burke planning his pension,

monument

Joko wrote: »

Yeah none of the above effects the Swords Express

The Swords Express or any express bus / coach service can't be compared a high-frequency, tram or bus service with far more stops. While the express is great for a few, the amount of people the latter carries makes them incomparable services (that's not to say there is no value in having the express for the few).

The Swords Express has 30 + 7 departures a day from Swords.

Luas (or BRT etc) would have more services than that in a few hours and serves the areas in-between.

Using Luas from Tallaght as an example (which has lower frequency than more central stops), you have a tram every 4-10mins at the 7.30-8.30am peak and a tram every 9mins towards town between 3-6pm. So you're talking at least 30 services in peak times for Luas, and Luas is still high-frequency the rest of the day according to demand.

And, also, the Swords Express can be affected by congestion and problems along the way -- so could Luas or BRT, but due to their nature, less so by design.

skeleton_boy

Joko wrote: »

Yeah none of the above effects the Swords Express

I got on the Swords Express yesterday at 17.25 and it was 18.20 when I rang my friend to see where exactly he was in O'Connell St. I know this was peak traffic but a lusa line would more than half this journey time surely.

Joko

Express buses using the tunnel are also provided by Dublin Bus (142 and 33x) to the main employment centres of Swords.

The experiences of one commuter on one particular day does not justify vast sums of capital to be spent to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

monument

Joko wrote: »

Express buses using the tunnel are also provided by Dublin Bus (142 and 33x) to the main employment centres of Swords.

This is unreal!

Now you're comparing services that at most carry a few 100 people a day to a type of service that would carry 1,000s of people.

Joko wrote: »

The experiences of one commuter on one particular day does not justify vast sums of capital to be spent to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

Nobody says it does. But it shows how the Swords Express can be affect by traffic.

Spending "vast sums of capital" on Luas or decent BRT would be spent -- as it always is -- based on cost benefit analysis and on the basis of providing high quality public transport to many areas along a corridor and feeding into the network.

Joko

monument wrote: »

This is unreal!

Now you're comparing services that at most carry a few 100 people a day to a type of service that would carry 1,000s of people.

Between 7am to 8am - Swords to City Centre using the Port Tunnel
Swords Express: 7 buses
Dublin Bus - 41x: 6 buses
Dublin Bus - 142: 2 buses
Dublin Bus - 33x: 3 buses

Then add the 10s of non express services

The RPA saw the main demand in Park and Ride for commuters off the M1, not in Swords, this demand can be satisfied with a BRT.

Metro North:

monument

Joko wrote: »

Between 7am to 8am - Swords to City Centre using the Port Tunnel
Swords Express: 7 buses
Dublin Bus - 41x: 6 buses
Dublin Bus - 142: 2 buses
Dublin Bus - 33x: 3 buses

Then add the 10s of non express services

What would your point be adding in non-express services?

Those are affected by the things outlined in markpb's post you were replying to. You seem to have gone full circle on your self.

Even with non-express bunched in, you really don't seem to be grasping the service level of a Luas line compared to those.

Joko wrote: »

The RPA saw the main demand in Park and Ride for commuters off the M1, not in Swords, this demand can be satisfied with a BRT.

First, like many people did with Metro North, you're getting caught up with the idea that any line (tram, BRT etc) is about serving Swords and not a massive area. The fact is the real demand comes from the area where the most people live and work -- ie inside the M50.

Secondly, the Fosterstown P&R car park of 300 spaces would likely not be filled from those coming from the M1, but those driving from near by already car-dependent areas (ie south, south-west, and south-east areas of Swords). There's a question of were the RPA being practical here in a car dependent area, or should they have been looking at providing shuttle buses and building and promoting walking and cycling access? But that's for another thread.

It could and has been said that they were expecting too much from the P&R stops but that does not mean that the P&R strategy is totally flawed -- it's not. And good P&R can work for a 'metro', train, tram, high quality BRT line.

I'm not advocating for metro/tram/BRT here. I'm advocating against your nonsense of comparing current marginal services to any possible high frequency, high capacity service.

An important question is what do you mean by BRT? It can be anything from near-Luas like service to marginally better QBCs.

dowlingm

skeleton_boy wrote: »

I got on the Swords Express yesterday at 17.25 and it was 18.20 when I rang my friend to see where exactly he was in O'Connell St. I know this was peak traffic but a lusa line would more than half this journey time surely.

Not saying this to be argumentative but haven't there been several comments about some DB services being as fast as the existing LUAS? Metro would have been different because in addition to being fully segregated the cost of stations would have allowed for longer stop spacing and higher average speeds.

unklerosco

From clondalkin to the city centre at off peak times is around 15 mins quicker by bus than the Lucas from the red cow to city centre... Biggest plus for the Lucas is that 99% of the time when u get on it u know it's gonna take u X mins to get into the city... Different story by bus.

[Jackass]

Anybody who passes the BXD bridge area frequently wanna throw up some pics if / when theres any sign of progress?

popebenny16

[Jackass] wrote: »

Anybody who passes the BXD bridge area frequently wanna throw up some pics if / when theres any sign of progress?

from what i have seen of new bridge building on the liffey in the past it seems nothing much happens for a very long time and then next thing they are lifting the damned thing into place using cranes.

whats going on behind the awful rusty girders i imagine is the pouring of concrete after the piles have been driven in for foundation. I havent seen anything like blocks or bricks being stored up for the facade as of yet.

What is more interesting are the goundworks slowly being done on Hawkins street, where you can see all the exposed wires, pipes and other utilities of the city which have been buried for years. That was the bit of the luas works i found interesting before.

nowecant

Full story on RTE here

An Bord Pleanála has given the go-ahead for the Luas link up in Dublin city centre.

The Government has already announced it is committed to funding the estimated €370m cost of the project.


Initial works are due to begin next year and passenger services are planned to start in 2017.


The 6km BXDl line will extend the Green Line from St Stephen's Green through the city centre where it will link up with the Red Line at the junction of O'Connell St and Abbey St.


It will then go to Broombridge near Cabra where it will link up with the Maynooth commuter rail line.


A stop is also planned for the new DIT campus at Grangegorman a project which got approval for €180m worth of funding in the government's stimulus package.


A number of city centre statues including Molly Malone at the bottom of Grafton St will have to be removed and kept in storage while works take place.


The board decided that the Luas BXD line would not interfere with future development of the Metro North and Underground DART projects.


It also decided to allow the line to run with overhead cables through the core city centre area despite concerns expressed by Dublin City Council that these would be "visually intrusive".


It also decided that Dawson St north bound stop be omitted as it could cause traffic congestion.


The planning permission for LUAS BXD will last for seven years.

monument

Commuting and transport thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80050369#post80050369

An Cuinneach

Looking at the Luas section that's just gotten the go ahead, I wonder is the Upper O'Connell Street stop really necessary?

I've already ranted at length about stops that could be cut from the Red Line because they're so close together so I won't go back down that road, but is there anything of such importance up the top of that road that needs a stop? Or is it to cater for Dr. Quirky's?....

Sure there's a stop at Parnell too so I really don't see the logic...

aliveandkicking

The Parnell stop is only for southbound trams. Northbound trams will stop at O'Connell St upper. I don't think they're needed either especially with the Dominick St stop too.

green123

completely agree about it having too many stops.
huge waste of money.

surely people can walk a few hundred yards and we could save a few hundred million ?

Cool Mo D

The Luas will be going slowly through the city centre because it's sharing the road, so the stops will add only a small amount of extra time.

strassenwo!f

One of the things I'd like to see with this line is an improvement in the naming of stops.

We currently have, for example, on the Red line, "James's", rather than "St. James's" or "St. James's Hospital". A bit slack, in my opinion. Even if many people refer to the hospital as "James's", there's no need for the RPA to do so.

On the Green line, I don't particularly like "Harcourt" either, as if this a defined area of the city, which it isn't. The stop is on Harcourt Street, why not give it this name?

There are a few candidates on the link-up where this minimalist approach to the names is a little grating: "Dominick", "Dawson", "Marlborough". These are not areas of the city, rather they are streets, and what is wrong with letting the stops on these streets take their proper place in the transport world alongside Old Street, Alexanderplatz, Piccadilly Circus, etc?:)

An Cuinneach

strassenwo!f wrote: »

One of the things I'd like to see with this line is an improvement in the naming of stops.

We currently have, for example, on the Red line, "James's", rather than "St. James's" or "St. James's Hospital". A bit slack, in my opinion. Even if many people refer to the hospital as "James's", there's no need for the RPA to do so.

On the Green line, I don't particularly like "Harcourt" either, as if this a defined area of the city, which it isn't. The stop is on Harcourt Street, why not give it this name?

There are a few candidates on the link-up where this minimalist approach to the names is a little grating: "Dominick", "Dawson", "Marlborough". These are not areas of the city, rather they are streets, and what is wrong with letting the stops on these streets take their proper place in the transport world alongside Old Street, Alexanderplatz, Piccadilly Circus, etc?:)

I kinda like James's to be honest because it adds a bit of "Dublin-speech-style", but yeah I agree with you over Harcourt, etc. The odd thing is that in Irish, it's given Sráid Fhearcair (similarly the fuller title of Ospidéal San Séamas) so it seems they don't see Harcourt as an area per se, just an abbreviation.

monument

strassenwo!f wrote: »

We currently have, for example, on the Red line, "James's", rather than "St. James's" or "St. James's Hospital". A bit slack, in my opinion. Even if many people refer to the hospital as "James's", there's no need for the RPA to do so.

The street is James's, and it is named after the street.

St. James's Hospital and even St James's are needlessly long and the stop serves the area not just the hospital. And the near by area is refered to as James's and not "part of the Liberties" etc.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

On the Green line, I don't particularly like "Harcourt" either, as if this a defined area of the city, which it isn't. The stop is on Harcourt Street, why not give it this name?

There are a few candidates on the link-up where this minimalist approach to the names is a little grating: "Dominick", "Dawson", "Marlborough". These are not areas of the city, rather they are streets, and what is wrong with letting the stops on these streets take their proper place in the transport world alongside Old Street, Alexanderplatz, Piccadilly Circus, etc?:)

The only area / stop name comparable to Piccadilly Circus etc is the O'Connell Street stops -- and they have the full name for those stop. With Parnell, it is better on its own as it can be the street or the square. The likes of Dominick, Dawson, and Marlborough are not world famous streets. Anyway, Alexanderplatz is a very wide area, one word, and not really compare to a street.

Irish Rail has both "Pearse Station" and "Tara Street Starion".

Sponge Bob

No condition re the MN station box at OCB I see.

wicklowwonder

monument wrote: »

strassenwo!f wrote: »

We currently have, for example, on the Red line, "James's", rather than "St. James's" or "St. James's Hospital". A bit slack, in my opinion. Even if many people refer to the hospital as "James's", there's no need for the RPA to do so.

The street is James's, and it is named after the street.

St. James's Hospital and even St James's are needlessly long and the stop serves the area not just the hospital. And the near by area is refered to as James's and not "part of the Liberties" etc.

strassenwo!f wrote: »

On the Green line, I don't particularly like "Harcourt" either, as if this a defined area of the city, which it isn't. The stop is on Harcourt Street, why not give it this name?

There are a few candidates on the link-up where this minimalist approach to the names is a little grating: "Dominick", "Dawson", "Marlborough". These are not areas of the city, rather they are streets, and what is wrong with letting the stops on these streets take their proper place in the transport world alongside Old Street, Alexanderplatz, Piccadilly Circus, etc?:)

The only area / stop name comparable to Piccadilly Circus etc is the O'Connell Street stops -- and they have the full name for those stop. With Parnell, it is better on its own as it can be the street or the square. The likes of Dominick, Dawson, and Marlborough are not world famous streets. Anyway, Alexanderplatz is a very wide area, one word, and not really compare to a street.

Irish Rail has both "Pearse Station" and "Tara Street Starion".

Pearce Station is not on Pearse St, it was called Westland Row Station then in 1966 to mark 50 years of the rising it was called Pearse Station after Padraig.