Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

Pete_Cavan

Im really disappointed ABP and the lack of conditions they have attached. I had hoped they would tell the RPA to pick either O'Connell Street or Malborough Street and send both tracks down the one street, instead of having them split. As others have said, the O'Connell Upper stop is totally unnecessary but were both tracks to use the one street four stops (O'Connell GPO, O'Connell Upper, Parnell and Malborough) could be merged into one. Similarly the Westmoreland and Trinity stops could be merged.

I had also hoped they would tell them to construct any necessary MN infrastructure along the route which may be compromised in any way were BXD to be built before MN. Will it even be possible to construct MN station boxes at SSG and OCB once BXD is constructed?

monument

wicklowwonder wrote: »

Pearce Station is not on Pearse St, it was called Westland Row Station then in 1966 to mark 50 years of the rising it was called Pearse Station after Padraig.

In the same vain that James's is not on James's Street!

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Im really disappointed ABP and the lack of conditions they have attached. I had hoped they would tell the RPA to pick either O'Connell Street or Malborough Street and send both tracks down the one street, instead of having them split. As others have said, the O'Connell Upper stop is totally unnecessary but were both tracks to use the one street four stops (O'Connell GPO, O'Connell Upper, Parnell and Malborough) could be merged into one. Similarly the Westmoreland and Trinity stops could be merged.

Totally agree, but sadly the chances of it happening went out the window when ABP asked for further information on a number of issues but not on this.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I had also hoped they would tell them to construct any necessary MN infrastructure along the route which may be compromised in any way were BXD to be built before MN. Will it even be possible to construct MN station boxes at SSG and OCB once BXD is constructed?

The RPA and NTA seem to think so and ABP have accepted their view.

Richard Hillman

green123 wrote: »

completely agree about it having too many stops.
huge waste of money.

surely people can walk a few hundred yards and we could save a few hundred million ?

The more stops the more payzones :mad:

Thats why in places like Sallynoggin they have 6 bus stops in the space of 1km all going in the same direction :rolleyes:

annfield1978

Who is doing the detailed design and when is it envisaged that procurement of the Contractor will commence?

Victor

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The more stops the more payzones :mad:

Thats why in places like Sallynoggin they have 6 bus stops in the space of 1km all going in the same direction :rolleyes:

Eh, no. A bit off-topic to be talking about Dublin Bus, but their fares are determined by stages, not stops. Luas fare zones were determined by politicians.

annfield1978 wrote: »

Who is doing the detailed design and when is it envisaged that procurement of the Contractor will commence?

RPA will do most of the design - I'm not sure if they have a consulting engineer on board.

They may go for split packages on the construction - one contractor for the preliminary works - mostly diverting services and one for the main construction works (who would then employ specialists for the track laying and electrical systems).

Ernest

Did I hear correctly that one of the planning conditions stipulated by An Bord Pleanala is that there should be no Luas stop in Dawson St? That would leave no stop between St Stephens Green and Westmoreland Street and also leave no stopping point for Grafton Street - Ireland's premier shopping street. Some mistake surely?

LXFlyer

What do you mean no stop for Grafton Street? The St Stephen's Green stop is right at the top of Grafton Street!

If those bus stops on Dawson Street were removed (which they would have to be if a northbound LUAS stop were built), a substantial number of major bus routes would have no stop between Lower Leeson Street and Suffolk Street (25/a/b, 38/a/b, 39/a, 70).

For once the reality that more people do (and will continue to) use the bus through this corridor has managed to hit home with the powers that be.

Ernest

The Grafton street area has probably the most dense series of shopping streets in Dublin including Wicklow Street, Exchequer Street, Suffolk Street, South Anne Street and Duke Street as well as Dawson Street itself and of course the lower half of Grafton Street - all quite a walk from the existing Luas stop in St. Stephen's Green/York Street. A stop in Dawson Street would be an essential link for public transport users who might not consider the existing Luas terminal to be adjacent to these streets. Of course its all relative. There are some who would consider Connolly and Heuston stations as being adequately adjacent to the shopping streets of Dublin but trams, being street cars, are expected to be more user friendly and have convenient stops.

LXFlyer

I think you really are taking the proverbial here. It's 30 seconds walk from the existing SSG stop to Grafton St.

monument

Ernest wrote: »

Did I hear correctly that one of the planning conditions stipulated by An Bord Pleanala is that there should be no Luas stop in Dawson St? That would leave no stop between St Stephens Green and Westmoreland Street and also leave no stopping point for Grafton Street - Ireland's premier shopping street. Some mistake surely?

No platform on the northbound side but people will still be able to board and disembark at a southbound only-stop.

Ernest wrote: »

The Grafton street area has probably the most dense series of shopping streets in Dublin including Wicklow Street, Exchequer Street, Suffolk Street, South Anne Street and Duke Street as well as Dawson Street itself and of course the lower half of Grafton Street - all quite a walk from the existing Luas stop in St. Stephen's Green/York Street. A stop in Dawson Street would be an essential link for public transport users who might not consider the existing Luas terminal to be adjacent to these streets. Of course its all relative. There are some who would consider Connolly and Heuston stations as being adequately adjacent to the shopping streets of Dublin but trams, being street cars, are expected to be more user friendly and have convenient stops.

It's a good compromise. Luas can't and should not always be above everything else.

Sure with Dawson Street, the streets right next to it and the area east of it, there's a bit of an extra walk, but for most of the shopping streets you've mentioned there's very little difference:

Distance from|Dawson Stop|Trinity Stop (southbound only)|Westmoreland (northbound only)
Wicklow Street|200m|280m|370m
Suffolk Street|200m|200m|300m
Exchequer Street|370m|370m|430m

And the likes of South Anne Street are so close to the green, it's not worth putting them in the above.

nowecant

They were pouring concrete into the southside foundations this morning when I was passing

nowecant

Also does anyone know what the temporary traffic arrangements on Dawson street, Nassau Street, Grafton Street and College Green will be?

How will the Luas affect traffic here in future?

Ive been thinking about it for a while and I cant figure out where they might be rooting cars when the Luas is built

LXFlyer

nowecant wrote: »

Also does anyone know what the temporary traffic arrangements on Dawson street, Nassau Street, Grafton Street and College Green will be?

How will the Luas affect traffic here in future?

Ive been thinking about it for a while and I cant figure out where they might be rooting cars when the Luas is built

All of the detailed plans are on www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie

As they haven't even awarded construction contracts yet, I'd suggest you're a bit ahead of yourself. That sort of detail will be something that will become clearer as the process develops.

trellheim

In fact this stupid project has had a lot of modelling done



See http://www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie/Downloads/EIS/BXD_EIS_Book_2/Luas%20Broombridge_EIS_Book_2_Part_2_Chapters_6-7).pdf Pages 105 et.al.

With the Dawson St stop being a shared running island platform ( does no-one else see the potential for loss of life since buses and commercial traffic is still going to use Dawson St ? ) This is friggin idiotic ..... Consider. loaded 46a, 15, 145 , and a loaded tram in the morning peak all have to disgorge outside Hodges Figgis. Can the bus overtake the tram if it ? No.. because its a segregated southbound lane

It is asinine in the extreme to build this idiocy. Read the planning inspectors report and see how so much was ignored.


I note that MPW and Fitzers restaurant in their objections noted

It is remarkable to consider that Dublin Bus has increased the network of buses and cross-city routes through Dawson Street, notwithstanding the routing of the LUAS BXD through Dawson Street. It would appear that there is little concern for the proper and wider distribution of public transport services in the city.
 It is remarkable that two semi-state companies, the RPA and Dublin Bus vie with one another for the limited route space through Dawson Street ultimately to the detriment of the overall network penetration for the public using these services and of the business and street life on Dawson Street.
 The RPA response is all about movement and shows little understanding of place. Ultimately the success of the LUAS BXD Project will lie in sustaining the heart of the city as a vibrant lively attractive city where public transport supports city character and street life and a sense of place.

see www.pleanala.ie/news/NA0004/RNA0004Addendum.pdf page 17 or thereabouts.

Edit :
In fact on reading it, some sense shined through. There is no stop on Dawson St northbound, it has been omitted .See http://www.pleanala.ie/news/NA0004/NA0004Schedule15.pdf. Thus the next stop after SSG inbound is Westmoreland St and you are going to get a lot of annoyed commuters on the tram waiting behind the buses letting off ! There will still be a southbound stop at more or less the same place. .... So marginally less stupid but still completely asinine.

monument

trellheim wrote: »

With the Dawson St stop being a shared running island platform.....

It's not. There will be no island platform.

See the third post: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056717869

brownbeard

Don't think anyone's posted this yet;

http://cyclingindublin.com/2012/08/07/what-does-luas-broombridge-mean-for-cyclists/

Article about the extension's effect on/provision for cycling.

The Idyll Race

brownbeard wrote: »

Don't think anyone's posted this yet;

http://cyclingindublin.com/2012/08/07/what-does-luas-broombridge-mean-for-cyclists/

Article about the extension's effect on/provision for cycling.

I imagine that like the Red Line, there will be more illegal use of the tram lines by cyclists.

There are some good points though in that article and the impact on design and costs should be minimal.

nowecant

Article in the Irish times about the upcoming traffic disruption in the Stephens Green area with the Luas construction

Work on latest Luas line will disrupt city centre traffic

OLIVIA KELLY

MAJOR TRAFFIC disruption can be expected on St Stephen’s Green and surrounding streets in the coming months with the start of work to facilitate the construction of the cross-city Luas line.

The changes, most of which will be permanent, will involve the removal of traffic lanes and parking spaces, and the reversal of traffic flow. The work is the first step in a process which will see cars removed from much of the city core to create space for the new tram line.

Work on the line, known as Luas BXD, including filling in basements and diverting utilities, is due to begin next year, with trams operational by 2017. No cars or buses will be able to drive down Dawson Street. All traffic will also be removed, along with all parking spaces, between Grafton Street and Kildare Street on St Stephen’s Green North.

Kildare Street, currently one way southbound, will become two-way. Turning left from Kildare Street onto the Green, general traffic will be reduced to one lane heading east to Merrion Row.

Only buses will be able to turn right onto St Stephen’s Green East from the Shelbourne Hotel side. Westbound, there will be one general traffic lane, which will turn right onto Kildare Street.

On the east side of the Green, cars coming from Hume Street will be able to turn right only, either to take the lane which eventually turns onto Kildare Street, or to turn onto Merrion Row. Buses from Hume Street can turn left and head south.

At the south end of St Stephen’s Green East, buses will turn left onto Leeson Street or go straight ahead to Earlsfort Terrace. There is a laneway just before this junction which provides an exit from the car park of the Permanent TSB head office, and cars exiting here must turn left and continue straight to Earlsfort Terrace.

Car parking will also be removed from St Stephen’s Green East and cycle parking will be provided.

With St Stephen’s Green West already almost entirely occupied by the Green Luas line, motorists’ access will be severely limited.

However, this is just the first in a series of traffic restrictions which will make crossing the city through its centre almost impossible for motorists. The line will run from St Stephen’s Green, down Dawson Street and Nassau Street, through College Green, Westmoreland Street and O’Connell Street, where it connects with the Luas Red line.

It will serve the new DIT campus at Grangegorman and terminate at the Iarnród Éireann station at Broombridge in Cabra.

The city council will this month publish plans for the St Stephen’s Green works and public submissions can then be made for an eight-week period before the plans are returned to the councillors for ratification.

mydiscworld

Was just about to post that too.

So no traffic down Dawson St anymore.

Two way on Kildare St.

All traffic will also be removed, along with all parking spaces, between Grafton Street and Kildare Street on St Stephen’s Green North.

Where does inward bus go at junction of Nassau and Kildare. Appears it is not allowed go on Nassau St to Suffock St from my reading of it!

Meaning it'd have to go round Trinity via Pearse St!

grimbergen

going to be some serious disruption here! How many of these are going to be permanent. wonder where the taxis at the stephen's green rank will go? On the plus side, should be a more pleasant atmosphere for pedestrians around dawson street

monument

mydiscworld wrote: »

Was just about to post that too.

So no traffic down Dawson St anymore.

Two way on Kildare St.

Only for construction.

mydiscworld wrote: »

Where does inward bus go at junction of Nassau and Kildare. Appears it is not allowed go on Nassau St to Suffock St from my reading of it!

Based on what?

Rock of Gibraltar

How is the Nassau-North Grafton-College Green section going to work long term?
Seeing as it is to be two way tram, is it going to share the road with buses and general traffic?

If it were a two way public transport only section they could route all the northbound buses through there and end the Suffolk St fiasco.

cgcsb

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

How is the Nassau-North Grafton-College Green section going to work long term?
Seeing as it is to be two way tram, is it going to share the road with buses and general traffic?

If it were a two way public transport only section they could route all the northbound buses through there and end the Suffolk St fiasco.

I think that is the plan, they're going to remove the taxi rank and the bus stops on Grafton street to facilitate 2 way tram movements, I see no reason why not also two way bus movements. Private traffic won't be allowed down there anymore.

Victor

cgcsb wrote: »

I see no reason why not also two way bus movements.

Bus stops.

cgcsb

Victor wrote: »

Bus stops.

so arrange for there to be no stops where there's shared running with luas. Bring in traffic light priority while you're at it

Idbatterim

could they not have built a 1km tunnel and terminated it under O'Connell st etc? how many people are going to be inconvenienced by this permanently, as opposed to how many will actually use it?

monument

Idbatterim wrote: »

could they not have built a 1km tunnel and terminated it under O'Connell st etc?

Apparently it's prohibitively expensive to bore short tunnels as few if any tunneling companies will do it because it's not worth their while.

Luas is about serving more frequent stops than a tunnel would allow for without being prohibitively expensive.

Also O'Connell is not the final destination of BXD.

Idbatterim wrote: »

how many people are going to be inconvenienced by this permanently, as opposed to how many will actually use it?

It'll highly likely permanently inconvenience far fewer people than it will serve or otherwise benefit.

cgcsb

he does have a point, it luas BXD and metro north shared tunnel between harcourt and a point under parnell st where BXD would spur off and emerge at the railway cutting in broadstone while metro continued northwards, significant long term savings would be made, but that's all hypothetical now because it would have involved forward planning.

monument

cgcsb wrote: »

he does have a point, it luas BXD and metro north shared tunnel between harcourt and a point under parnell st where BXD would spur off and emerge at the railway cutting in broadstone while metro continued northwards, significant long term savings would be made, but that's all hypothetical now because it would have involved forward planning.

It's hypothetical because Metro North is not going ahead and, in any case, the cost of building a tunnel between Harcourt and Broadstone would be crazy.

nowecant

Idbatterim wrote: »

could they not have built a 1km tunnel and terminated it under O'Connell st etc? how many people are going to be inconvenienced by this permanently, as opposed to how many will actually use it?

There is a lot more Dublin to the north of O'Connell St. Don't think of this as simply connecting the two Luas lines but rather as a completely separate line, serving multiple communities and connecting different parts of the city.

I for one look forward to the reduction of traffic in places like Dawson St and around Trinity. I think it will do a lot for the shops and business in the long run and is a precursor to what will hopefully one day be the full pedestrianization of College Green(apart from the Luas lines that is)