Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

Rock of Gibraltar

monument wrote: »

It's hypothetical because Metro North is not going ahead and, in any case, the cost of building a tunnel between Harcourt and Broadstone would be crazy.

I dunno the economic costs of BXD seem pretty crazy, I mean the costs of disruption to the city centre and what seems to me will be major disruption to the bus services.
The benefits are more political than economic, public transport won't be that much more efficient than it is at the moment, but some politician will be able to come along and say 'I joined the Luas lines'.

A tunnel between Harcourt and Broadstone however would move large amounts of people very quickly through the city centre at minimal cost to the bus and street network, the benefits seem much clearer and broader.
Obviously this is an armchair lateral economic way of thinking so completely pointless when it comes to accounts.

Incidentally a Harcourt to Broadstone tunnel was in the Abercrombie plan for Dublin from 1922 although it would have intersected with another tunnel along the current red line alignment just to the east of the Four Courts rather than O'Connel St.
It's a bit mad to think we're still talking about this 90 years later.

I'm half hoping that now the City of Dublin has revenue raising powers again that it'll take the long term view and take the financial burden of these big projects and we can just get on with it.

markpb

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

The benefits are more political than economic, public transport won't be that much more efficient than it is at the moment, but some politician will be able to come along and say 'I joined the Luas lines'.

I know this has been said before in this thread but it's worth repeating:

It's not about linking the two Luas lines. It's a new line that serves new destinations. Yes, the new line links the two existing ones but it's not the sole purpose.

dowlingm

markpb wrote: »

I know this has been said before in this thread but it's worth repeating:

It's not about linking the two Luas lines. It's a new line that serves new destinations. Yes, the new line links the two existing ones but it's not the sole purpose.

Especially since through services are precluded by the layout of the junctions due to lack of space/inclination to bloat the budget further with city centre expropriations.

lucernarian

markpb wrote: »

I know this has been said before in this thread but it's worth repeating:

It's not about linking the two Luas lines. It's a new line that serves new destinations. Yes, the new line links the two existing ones but it's not the sole purpose.

I don't think that was entirely the point Rock of Gibraltar was trying to make, and while he/she can clarify this, I read it as how a politican is going to portray BXD when it's built.

In all honesty, who on this thread doesn't know what the D part in BXD represents?

I think discussing the merits of the LUAS from O'Connell St. to Stephen's Green is still plausible in the context of discussion on the overall BXD project.

Yillan

Am I right in thinking that the red line is a bit of a gooseberry in all this? Green and purple have linked up so you can go Grangegorman to Sandymount on the same train, but if you want to go from Smithfield to GG, you have to get off at Abbey St and cross O'Connell St to get on the purple line? Not a complaint, just to clear it up. Any plans for easy pedestrian access from the abbey st stop to O'Connell St? Small walkway over the street? Or will there be a train full of people disembarking and then standing en masse waiting for the green man like something out of Shaun of the Dead? Any chance the traffic lights will change in sync with the arrival of the Luas?

Victor

Yillan wrote: »

Any chance the traffic lights will change in sync with the arrival of the Luas?

They do! However, that isn't much use a you have to walk from the Luas stop to O'Connell Street, so the change is only worthwhile for people on westbound trams.

Realistically, it isn't going to be a problem - the dominant flows will be between the existing red and green lines and bus stops.

monument

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

I dunno the economic costs of BXD seem pretty crazy, I mean the costs of disruption to the city centre and what seems to me will be major disruption to the bus services.
The benefits are more political than economic, public transport won't be that much more efficient than it is at the moment

Pretty crazy on what bases?

Business case shows benefits are greater than any of the costs.

Public transport will be made far more efficient.

The core city centre north south corridor -- ie the Green - College Green - O'Connell Street - Parnell Street -- will be greatly enhanced. For most people the frequency and dependable offered at Luas stops cannot compare to the dispersed and lower level of service offered by Dublin Bus. Light rail (or BRT) services are far more attractive to shoppers, tourists and business visitors than conventional buses.

The west end of Parnell Street, the genral area around Bolton Street, Grangegorman and Cabra will all jump from low to no service to a high level of service. Lots of the most high density residential and employment areas in city will be given better access.

The current green line will be enhance given the new direct service to more areas and the connecting services to mainline railway stations and residential and employment areas. The red line and Irish Rail regional and intercity services will also be enhanced given new direct and high frequency connections.

Bus services may suffer somewhat even after construction, but this can / will have to be counteracted by mesures such as bus gates which are better enforced and extended; better taxi provisions and greater enforcement; genral greater parking and clearway enforcement. Few care about these things much now, but Luas should push this agenda.

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

but some politician will be able to come along and say 'I joined the Luas lines'.

It's sad and limiting to debate and progress that the public and media perception of the project is mostly confined to "a Luas linkup" but that does not mean the other benefits are wiped out.

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

A tunnel between Harcourt and Broadstone however would move large amounts of people very quickly through the city centre at minimal cost to the bus and street network, the benefits seem much clearer and broader.
Obviously this is an armchair lateral economic way of thinking so completely pointless when it comes to accounts.

Have you looked at all of the offices around Harcourt recently? I could be wrong, but a tunnel portal seems (a) out of the question around there for space reasons, or (b) if there was space between building it would be highly costly and disruptive to the green line and to the road network in the areas.

Without an upgrade of the green line to metro standard the benefits may be a lot less than you think.

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

Incidentally a Harcourt to Broadstone tunnel was in the Abercrombie plan for Dublin from 1922 although it would have intersected with another tunnel along the current red line alignment just to the east of the Four Courts rather than O'Connel St.
It's a bit mad to think we're still talking about this 90 years later.

It might be a bit mad that there has been so little transport progress since than in general, but just because it was proposed 90 years ago, does not make it a worthwhile solution today.

Even if not all agree, an on-street tram network has a lot going for it.

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

I'm half hoping that now the City of Dublin has revenue raising powers again that it'll take the long term view and take the financial burden of these big projects and we can just get on with it.

That won't stop the city having different ideas to you.

dowlingm wrote: »

Especially since through services are precluded by the layout of the junctions due to lack of space/inclination to bloat the budget further with city centre expropriations.

Having to switch trams on Luas is not as important as some people make out.

It's not the same as having to switch from Luas to bus or switch from bus to bus, or even from Dart to commuter service -- switching from Luas to Luas in the city centre will be overall quicker and more dependable than any other public transport in Ireland.

GerardKeating

monument wrote: »

Apparently it's prohibitively expensive to bore short tunnels as few if any tunneling companies will do it because it's not worth their while.

Not all tunnels need a TBM, a less (or more) radical solution might be a short "Cut and Cover" the length of Dawson street and pop back above ground before crossing the Liffey.

monument

GerardKeating wrote: »

Not all tunnels need a TBM, a less (or more) radical solution might be a short "Cut and Cover" the length of Dawson street and pop back above ground before crossing the Liffey.

One of the main reasons people were suggesting / supporting a tunnel is less disruption -- cut and cover is the most disruptive option of all. It's far more disruptive at least at construction than on surface light rail, and the popping back up at the river would be the more disruptive options in those key areas.

Trying to do cut and cover around TCD and the Bank of Ireland on College Green may be fun to say the least and that's without talking about the approches to and from that area.

Victor

GerardKeating wrote: »

Not all tunnels need a TBM, a less (or more) radical solution might be a short "Cut and Cover" the length of Dawson street and pop back above ground before crossing the Liffey.

The River Stein may have something to say about this.

Pete_Cavan

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

I dunno the economic costs of BXD seem pretty crazy, I mean the costs of disruption to the city centre and what seems to me will be major disruption to the bus services.

Correct me if Im wrong RoG, but by this I assume he/she is referring to the disruption and cost involved with routing BXD down two north/south thoroughfares in the north city centre when only one is necessary? Obviously if you are building a Luas line on one street, the other can be used to help alleviate disruption, and it is also cheaper to dig up one street than to dig up two streets. In the absence of facts and figures, I have to agree with RoG, however, if they were to pick either O'Connell Street or Malborough Street I think it would make a lot more sense.

GerardKeating

Victor wrote: »

The River Stein may have something to say about this.

I thought it went down Grafton Street, not Dawson Street.

Victor

Undergrounding that section would mean the trams will have to go underground at SSG and come up at Westmoreland Street, thereby via Dawson Street, Nassau Street and the bottom of Grafton Street.

Winters

Victor wrote: »

The River Stein may have something to say about this.

Or is it the Styne? Ive seen it referred to as Styne mostly.

Victor

Winters wrote: »

Or is it the Styne? Ive seen it referred to as Styne mostly.

The spelling varies.

dowlingm

Re : the inquiry on Line A stops in the vicinity of BX/D. There are crossovers in the area which preclude optimal placement of stops. Best thing to do is check out the RPA presentation to Engineers Ireland on BX/D which described the issues involved.

Irish and Proud

GerardKeating wrote: »

I thought it went down Grafton Street, not Dawson Street.

What?

That street isn't even wide enough for pedestrians as it stands - sure traffic there was banned (during main shopping hours) since the 1970's AFAIK.

GerardKeating

Irish and Proud wrote: »

What?

That street isn't even wide enough for pedestrians as it stands - sure traffic there was banned (during main shopping hours) since the 1970's AFAIK.

Was talking of the River Stein (aka Styne) which goes down Grafton Street.

Winters

GerardKeating wrote: »

Was talking of the River Stein (aka Styne) which goes down Grafton Street.

http://www.tcd.ie/Buildings/images/metro_appendix_5.jpg

GerardKeating

Winters wrote: »

http://www.tcd.ie/Buildings/images/metro_appendix_5.jpg

Cool map.

nowecant

I’m not sure about the etiquette of linking to another forum but there are some really great images and maps of the proposed Luas BXD line over at Archiseek
h
Has anyone any idea when the rolling road closures are starting to prepare the ground for track laying?

I was also wondering if there was any scope for staged opening on this line? As it is a continuation of the Green line, power, maintenance yards etc are all available?

grimbergen

The proposed road closures are out to public consultation at the moment.

Victor

nowecant wrote: »

Has anyone any idea when the rolling road closures are starting to prepare the ground for track laying?

The biggest part of the job is diverting water, drainage, gas, electrical and communications services. I understand staff are being hired for this at the moment, although I'm not sure by who.

Cool Mo D

Is anyone else unhappy with the way the Luas will be crossing Constitution Hill at road level? Surely an overpass for the road should be built here?

nowecant

I would wholeheartedly agree. If i remember right the original plan was to have it crossing on a bridge. when this got changed i don't know. At the top of dominic st the line will have to go back down hill to get to the junction so the topology was perfect for a bridge. I think the original plans are available here.

Maybe the new DIT Grangegorman entrance was the influence?

LXFlyer

The first project update is now on the RPA
website:
http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Luas%20Line%20BXD/Project%20Updates/Luas%20Broombridge%20Project%20Update%20No%201_180912.pdf

cgcsb

agreed, I remember the bridge or road level crossings were being considered and the RPA said this would be subject to further public consultation. Which means you'll get what's cheaper and like it. Wasted opportunity to improve traffic and improve luas journey times.

Victor

While I think I would have preferred some bridge arrangement, the trams will cross at the same time as traffic turns from Western Way into Phibsborough road, so no great problem.

sdanseo

Irish and Proud wrote: »

What?

That street isn't even wide enough for pedestrians as it stands - sure traffic there was banned (during main shopping hours) since the 1970's AFAIK.

1984.

monument

cgcsb wrote: »

agreed, I remember the bridge or road level crossings were being considered and the RPA said this would be subject to further public consultation. Which means you'll get what's cheaper and like it. Wasted opportunity to improve traffic and improve luas journey times.

Victor wrote: »

While I think I would have preferred some bridge arrangement, the trams will cross at the same time as traffic turns from Western Way into Phibsborough road, so no great problem.

Given the peak traffic conditions between the Four Courts and Hart's Corner it won't make a blind bit of diffrence at rush hour. It might improve bus flows and help pedestrians cross.

Off peak it will likely slow things down at that point but the junctions before and after it will slow you down half of the time anyway.

The movement which will be most affected is the left off Western Way (currently a slip) never seems like it is that busy.

It's not clear that a bridge would make that much diffrence overall.