Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

Geuze

Paris T2 northern extension, open late 2012

http://www.ratp.fr/fr/ratp/c_10270/carte-d-identite/

4.2km plus 7 new stations

http://t2ladefensebezons.fr/

224m for infrastructure, it seems.

monument

Are we really comparing like with like?

Can we extract BXD tram and depot costs from its price? Or do other prices include the same?

Are tram lines mostly on the outer areas of Paris comparable to one running in core of Dublin city centre?

How do property costs compare?


Some info and context:

Name: Luas BXD
Cost: €370 million
Cost per km: €61m (see question above)
Cost includes: Rolling stock, depot, tracks, trackbed, stops, wires, design, traffic managment etc
Length: ~6km (includes 4.7km of double track and around 2.5km of single track)
Location type: Mix of city centre, historic city core, former railway alignment, very small section of new cut and cover
Street types: Mix of wide and narrow, mostly relatively narrow or narrow workings space
Seggration: sections of shared running
Utilities etc to sort: possibly a bit of a mess with basements and some haphazard utilities

Irish and Proud

monument wrote: »

I was thinking about the same thing when I read "truly integrated". It does offer a good deal of integration, connecting with

• the Red Line, directly
• many bus and coach services, directly or close to directly
• Irish Rail services at Broombridge, directly
• Dart and Commuter services a Tara, with a 300/400m walk
• the two main rail stations with short Luas trips

But it is another piece of the jigsaw, not the end of the puzzle.

Yes, we can only start to think about having a truly integrated transport system when both the Luas BxD and DART Underground are in place. It's ridiculous that we still only have the one DART line - and most of it on track shared with mainline.

Markcheese

Are there any other aspirational Luas lines hoped for ,planned for, or even just that would be a good idea.... Where would they be, should they be ...

OssianSmyth

Markcheese wrote: »

Are there any other aspirational Luas lines hoped for ,planned for, or even just that would be a good idea.... Where would they be, should they be ...

The government has said that no new major public transport projects will be considered before 2015 when the next multi-year capital budget is announced.

There are three more Luas projects planned: Lucan, Bray and Rathfarnham, with Lucan most likely to happen and Rathfarnham least likely. There is also Metro North, DART Underground and Metro West to compete for the same budget.

Luas Line F was to run from Trinity College to Lucan via Dame Street,The Liberties and Ballyfermot.
http://www.rpa.ie/Maps/Luas%20Line%20F/LuasLineFMapV2%20201008.jpg

Line B2 would extend the Luas from Cherrywood to Bray/Fassaroe
http://www.transport21.ie/Projects/upload/File/cherrywood.pdf

Line E would run from Broadstone to Dundrum via Christchurch, Harold's Cross, Terenure, Rathfarnham.
http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Luas%20Line%20E/Luas%20Line%20E%20Documents/Feasibility%20Study%20Possible%20Luas%20Line%20Rathfarnham%20to%20City%20Centre%20(Line%20E).pdf

afatbollix

I personally think Line F should go ahead. But at Kylemore park it should link up with Irish rail.

Same with metro north to the airport. Its silly not having a link to the airport.

The rest should be scraped.

donvito99

Dart Underground over Metro North, I feel.

Markcheese

afatbollix wrote: »

I personally think Line F should go ahead. But at Kylemore park it should link up with Irish rail.

Same with metro north to the airport. Its silly not having a link to the airport.

The rest should be scraped.

Don't really have to worry about scrapping them for a good while.... No harm in having a plan , it won't be acted upon until money appears...and the population/ transit figures justify it ...

How many of the above routes would have to be built as full on trams/metro from day 1 ... Or could they be done as dedicated wheeled tram routes(a bit like the yoke in belfast) and upgraded later...
I assume in the city center not having to do power lines, or rail lines would make the route a lot cheaper(I know alignments would have to change and services would need to be moved but still )

Markcheese

Is Luas precluded from serving the north side ?

loyatemu

Markcheese wrote: »

Is Luas precluded from serving the north side ?

Metro North and Metro West are mostly northside (metro west is a glorified Luas) - BXD is mostly northside too. None of the non-BXD projects are likely to break ground this decade so its all fairly hypothetical...

OssianSmyth

Markcheese wrote: »

Is Luas precluded from serving the north side ?

BXD will go to Cabra with the possibility of future extension to Finglas
http://www.rpa.ie/Maps/Luas%20Line%20BX/Line%20BXD%20Map%200409.pdf

The Red line travels on the Northside (just about) from Collins Barracks to The Point.

cgcsb

I think Markchese is just shocked, like me, that there are all these future plans to build luas lines to Rathfarnam, Lucan, and even up to the uninhabited Dublin/Wicklow mountains(???). Yet there's no consideration to new trams on the Northside.

I would like to see a route study into a luas line from Coolock to Ringsend via Malahide Road, Fairview, Amien St, Moss St Pears St and Grand Canal Dock. The Malahide Rd Corridor is very busy at most hours of the day, it's too far from the DART and Too far from proposed metro North.

Granted LUAS BXD will serve Cabra and Metro North will take huge pressure of the Drumcondra/Swords road and the Ballymun Rd. I would say we'll see Metro N and DARTU in the 2015 Capital programme, just in time for the election.

donvito99

cgcsb wrote: »

I think Markchese is just shocked, like me, that there are all these future plans to build luas lines to Rathfarnam, Lucan, and even up to the uninhabited Dublin/Wicklow mountains(???). Yet there's no consideration to new trams on the Northside.

I would like to see a route study into a luas line from Coolock to Ringsend via Malahide Road, Fairview, Amien St, Moss St Pears St and Grand Canal Dock. The Malahide Rd Corridor is very busy at most hours of the day, it's too far from the DART and Too far from proposed metro North.

Granted LUAS BXD will serve Cabra and Metro North will take huge pressure of the Drumcondra/Swords road and the Ballymun Rd. I would say we'll see Metro N and DARTU in the 2015 Capital programme, just in time for the election.

Would Line F(Lucan) not be better suited to serve Grand Canal Dock?

Zebra3

cgcsb wrote: »

I would like to see a route study into a luas line from Coolock to Ringsend via Malahide Road, Fairview, Amien St, Moss St Pears St and Grand Canal Dock. The Malahide Rd Corridor is very busy at most hours of the day, it's too far from the DART and Too far from proposed metro North.

I'm no expert but I'd guess the Malahide Road is far too narrow for Luas (as well as having buses running on it).

Also Clontarf Road and Harmonstown DART stations are close enough to the Malahide Road.

Aquarius34

Luas line to Bray, what a waste. It has a dart which is enough. Irish planner's

The idea for building public transport is where it is needed and where they can attract people use public transport and get people out of their cars.

There are other more strategic lines that needed to be built than most of what is on that list? There is still little to no public transport integration in Dublin at all. All the Luas lines are served by bus presently and the bus routes are not under-served. It's just more white elephant planning and sending luas lines to politician constituencies The problem is none of Dublin's transport system is integrated or connected to each other. So commuters get dumped somewhere, then have to find other means to get where they need to go. It's a really big problem in this city.


Who is responsible for transport planning in this country? I really would like to know because there is no brain cells contributed or distributed to the planning of our transport network.

This list seems to constantly been put off the list. Nothing ever get's done in this country, until the people are screaming their heads off.

• Dart Underground
• Metro West
• Metro North

Jack Noble

loyatemu wrote: »

Metro North and Metro West are mostly northside (metro west is a glorified Luas) - BXD is mostly northside too. None of the non-BXD projects are likely to break ground this decade so its all fairly hypothetical...

I love this ignorant guff.

Metro North is also a "glorified Luas" - only difference is that it will operate in tunnels for part of the route whereas Metro West will be at grade. The two lines are identical bar that one aspect and link into each other.

And could someone please explain to me how a 'Metro West' service leaving Tallaght for Dublin Airport and Swords is any different to a 'Metro West' service running from Tallaght to St Stephen's Green or Cherrywood via the 'Metro North' line - which is exactly what the RPA and NTA intend?

From the NTA's 2030Vision strategy published in 2011.

serfboard

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Luas line to Bray, what a waste. It has a dart which is enough. Irish planner's

Completely disagree with you. It's called joined up thinking/modes of transport. You connect one mode of transport to another - think Luas/Connolly or Luas/Busarus, or buses going to Blackrock DART station etc.

Aquarius34

serfboard wrote: »

Completely disagree with you. It's called joined up thinking/modes of transport. You connect one mode of transport to another - think Luas/Connolly or Luas/Busarus, or buses going to Blackrock DART station etc.

but it's just a parallel line and end's at the same destination.

It's not as important as other lines, and it's only on the agenda because it's a cheap build in comparison to most schemes, which is very typical "ah sure that'll do".

That graph posted is horrible. Really really bad planning altogether.

varberg

Agree with you aquarious. No need for another link to bray.Makes no sense.

A link from the airport to the city centre is needed immediately and a link from blanch to the city centre should be the next one built.

monument

I don't think Luas should go to Bray. If it is really intended to upgrade the green line to metro or "pre-metro" then fire away to Bray, but if it's been kept as a Luas line, then it should go to Shankill.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

but it's just a parallel line and end's at the same destination.

Nearly sure you can't take the Dart to/from Bray to/from Sandyford/Cherrywood/Leopardstown/Dundrum/etc, and switching in the city is highly impractical.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

That graph posted is horrible. Really really bad planning altogether.

You're dismissing all of the rail plans for Dublin out-of-hand?

varberg wrote: »

No need for another link to bray.Makes no sense.

Expect it would offer:

• Direct and high quality services to/from Bray to/from Sandyford/Cherrywood/Leopardstown/Dundrum/etc.
• Connections between Luas and Dart/Commuter/Intercity rail services.

Aquarius34

monument wrote: »

Nearly sure you can't take the Dart to/from Bray to/from Sandyford/Cherrywood/Leopardstown/Dundrum/etc, and switching in the city is highly impractical.

Oh for god's sakes is there any common sense in this country?
Sandyford is like a stone throw from Bray and is served by direct motorway access. Both are suburbs outside the city.

Bray has a population of 30,000, not 300,000.

Yes it's wonderful to have a Luas serving Bray. Fabulous even. It has a Dart and it's fine for now. There are more pressing concerns right now, like a metro line to the Airport and an underground dart right now. The only reasons they want to build schemes to Bray, is because it's 90 percent of the line is built and it will give people this glorified illusion that the government "built" another seperate line to another separate area of Dublin. This is just fanciful farcial planning.

I find it actually hard not to swear at this point. What kind of Gombeens do we have in our transport planning department? This is not even funny at this stage. Am I the only one is reeling here? Two lines to Bray and Tallaght. It's just mind boggling to me. Tallaght will have two Luas lines? Dublin is NOT Paris, where it has a metro that serves 10 million people. It's almost like I have a picture in my head that every planner and TD in Dublin who made this "graph" has a Luas line going by their house to make them all happy and that it looks good to them, meanwhile the f**K the rest of the city "I have my train and Luas by my house now"

monument

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Oh for god's sakes is there any common sense in this country?
Sandyford is like a stone throw from Bray and is served by direct motorway access. Both are suburbs outside the city.

Sandyford is a large and important business district (and secondly a large residential zone) which is very much so part of the continuous urban area of the city.

Bray has only a few km between its urban bulk and Dublin's, but it still likely counts continuous urban area by many international definations.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Yes it's wonderful to have a Luas serving Bray. Fabulous even. It has a Dart and it's fine for now. There are more pressing concerns right now, like a metro line to the Airport and an underground dart right now.

What are you going on about?

Nobody here or elsewhere seems to calling for Luas to Bray ahead of Metro or Dart Underground -- both projects which have been advanced to full planning stage, while Luas to Bray was held back for good reason. (And as I've said: if the green line stays as Luas it just intersect with Dart before Bray).

Why get worked up when you only know half the story?

Aquarius34 wrote: »

The only reasons they want to build schemes to Bray, is because it's 90 percent of the line is built and it will give people this glorified illusion that the government "built" another seperate line to another separate area of Dublin. This is just fanciful farcial planning.

Nobody wants to build it before the other projects you mentioned -- it's just fanciful thinking on your behalf. In any case, it would never be a "seperate line" as it was clearly planned as part of the green line.

You really need to stop getting worked up when you only know half the story.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

I find it actually hard not to swear at this point. What kind of Gombeens do we have in our transport planning department? This is not even funny at this stage. Am I the only one is reeling here? Two lines to Bray and Tallaght. It's just mind boggling to me. Tallaght will have two Luas lines? Dublin is NOT Paris, where it has a metro that serves 10 million people. It's almost like I have a picture in my head that every planner and TD in Dublin who made this "graph" has a Luas line going by their house to make them all happy and that it looks good to them, meanwhile the f**K the rest of the city "I have my train and Luas by my house now"

We're not Paris, that's exactly why there's not loads of underground heavy rail metros crisscrossing the city, but only a few surfface tram lines area planned (and all bar BXD stalled for the foreseeable future).

Many claim rail spread in T21 if ever envisaged would cover too much of the city... Do they not have two lines planned to your house? Is that why you're mad as hell?

Just as with Bray, Tallaght is just one end point. There's loads of destinations inbetween. Tallaght has a large population and is part of the continuous urban area of Dublin, so two surface tram lines with at-grade crossings isn't much to write home about.

etchyed

Jack Noble wrote: »

I love this ignorant guff.

Metro North is also a "glorified Luas" - only difference is that it will operate in tunnels for part of the route whereas Metro West will be at grade. The two lines are identical bar that one aspect and link into each other.

Problem with your rant is that "that one aspect" is what makes all the difference. Metro North was planned to be mostly grade-separated, allowing for more frequent services, and with much longer vehicles than Luas. Metro West was not. Hence, the tendency to accept that Metro North, albeit light rail, had more of a right to call itself a metro. Metro West, on the other hand, looked just like another Luas line.

Of course, the lines and trams would all have been interoperable and it probably would have all been branded Luas anyway.

etchyed

Aquarius34 wrote: »

...which is very typical "ah sure that'll do".

...

That graph posted is horrible. Really really bad planning altogether.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Oh for god's sakes is there any common sense in this country?

...

This is just fanciful farcial planning.

...

I find it actually hard not to swear at this point. What kind of Gombeens do we have in our transport planning department? This is not even funny at this stage. Am I the only one is reeling here? Two lines to Bray and Tallaght. It's just mind boggling to me. Tallaght will have two Luas lines? Dublin is NOT Paris, where it has a metro that serves 10 million people. It's almost like I have a picture in my head that every planner and TD in Dublin who made this "graph" has a Luas line going by their house to make them all happy and that it looks good to them, meanwhile the f**K the rest of the city "I have my train and Luas by my house now"

I think you need to take a moment and calm yourself down, as you seem to be getting hysterical. Putting aside the validity or otherwise of your arguments, nobody will take them seriously if you continue to couch them in outbursts of rage and indignation.

Yes, there are gombeens aplenty in Irish politics, and there are plenty of examples of bad decisions you can point to in the past (you haven't, incidentally). But your repeated assertion that all this stuff has been drawn up on the back of a fag packet is insulting to all those involved and betrays that you don't really know what you're talking about.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

There are more pressing concerns right now, like a metro line to the Airport and an underground dart right now.

As monument has already pointed out, it never was proposed, nor is it now proposed, for Luas to Bray to take precedence over either of these two projects.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Who is responsible for transport planning in this country? I really would like to know because there is no brain cells contributed or distributed to the planning of our transport network.

Since you asked, in the Greater Dublin Area, the NTA is responsible. Have a look at their website and maybe read a few things before you continue to post uninformed rants here.

That graph posted is horrible. Really really bad planning altogether.

This one is my favourite. Two reallys and an altogether tacked on at the end for emphasis. With no further explanation. And it's not a graph. It's a diagram.

etchyed

etchyed wrote: »

I think you need to take a moment and calm yourself down, as you seem to be getting hysterical. Putting aside the validity or otherwise of your arguments, nobody will take them seriously if you continue to couch them in outbursts of rage and indignation.

Yes, there are gombeens aplenty in Irish politics, and there are plenty of examples of bad decisions you can point to in the past (you haven't, incidentally). But your repeated assertion that all this stuff has been drawn up on the back of a fag packet is insulting to all those involved and betrays that you don't really know what you're talking about.


As monument has already pointed out, it never was proposed, nor is it now proposed, for Luas to Bray to take precedence over either of these two projects.


Since you asked, in the Greater Dublin Area, the NTA is responsible. Have a look at their website and maybe read a few things before you continue to post uninformed rants here.


This one is my favourite. Two reallys and an altogether tacked on at the end for emphasis. With no further explanation. And it's not a graph. It's a diagram.

I've just checked Aquarius34's posting history. 297 of 457 posts in Conspiracy Theories. I've just wasted 15 minutes of my life writing the above post.

Jack Noble

etchyed wrote: »

Problem with your rant is that "that one aspect" is what makes all the difference. Metro North was planned to be mostly grade-separated, allowing for more frequent services, and with much longer vehicles than Luas. Metro West was not. Hence, the tendency to accept that Metro North, albeit light rail, had more of a right to call itself a metro. Metro West, on the other hand, looked just like another Luas line.

Of course, the lines and trams would all have been interoperable and it probably would have all been branded Luas anyway.

Unlike Luas, Metro West is to be fully-segregated from other traffic - that's why calling it a 'glorified Luas' is a fundamental misunderstanding of the project.

There are no tunnel sections - although that may change, for example, if local objections in Tallaght to the bridge section over the Red Luas line at Belgard-Kingswood are taken into consideration - but the line will not cross any roads at grade or share road space like Luas does.

Both lines will be fully-segregated from all other traffic - the only difference between MN and MW is that part of the segregation of MN is tunnelled under the airport, in Ballymun and through the north city and city centre.

Just because it looks like a Luas does not mean it is a Luas.

etchyed

Jack Noble wrote: »

Unlike Luas, Metro West is to be fully-segregated from other traffic

No, it's not. Have a look at the plans for it to meander around the Blanchardstown centre and tell me that again.

Both lines will be fully-segregated from all other traffic

Nope. Neither of them will be.

Just because it looks like a Luas does not mean it is a Luas.

My argument is not that simplistic. It's rude of you to try to make it seem like it is.

monument

I don't want to defend the project too much but in fairness to Metro West I'm nearly most major junctions were grade separated.

etchyed

monument wrote: »

I don't want to defend the project too much but in fairness to Metro West I'm nearly most major junctions were grade separated.

Major junctions, yes. But there were plenty of places where it crossed roads at grade.

chooochooo

etchyed wrote: »

I've just checked Aquarius34's posting history. 297 of 457 posts in Conspiracy Theories. I've just wasted 15 minutes of my life writing the above post.

Are you saying he's a nut 'cos he's obsessed with conspiracy theories?