Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

Pixel Eater

It's great to see that they are finally going to connect the two Luas lines but I was just wondering why will it take so long? I mean it was given planning permission in 2010, construction starts this month with the whole thing operational in the Autumn of 2017.

Now I'm not an engineer or anything and I appreciate that there are technical issues to building such large infrastructural projects, but over four years does seem like an inordinate amount of time to build a tramline that is only a few miles in length?

Weren't the original two lines, which are much longer, built in less time?

Even the new bridge seems to be taking a rather long time to complete, it's a pretty narrow distance they have to span.

monument

Pixel Eater wrote: »

It's great to see that they are finally going to connect the two Luas lines but I was just wondering why will it take so long? I mean it was given planning permission in 2010, construction starts this month with the whole thing operational in the Autumn of 2017.

Now I'm not an engineer or anything and I appreciate that there are technical issues to building such large infrastructural projects, but over four years does seem like an inordinate amount of time to build a tramline that is only a few miles in length?

Weren't the original two lines, which are much longer, built in less time?

Even the new bridge seems to be taking a rather long time to complete, it's a pretty narrow distance they have to span.

It's nearly 6km across some of the busiest and most densely populated areas in Ireland.

It could be done a lot quicker if you're ok with more disruption -- but you have to have a balance between speed and affects on city centre businesses and residents all along the line.

cgcsb

Pixel Eater wrote: »

It's great to see that they are finally going to connect the two Luas lines but I was just wondering why will it take so long? I mean it was given planning permission in 2010, construction starts this month with the whole thing operational in the Autumn of 2017.

Now I'm not an engineer or anything and I appreciate that there are technical issues to building such large infrastructural projects, but over four years does seem like an inordinate amount of time to build a tramline that is only a few miles in length?

Weren't the original two lines, which are much longer, built in less time?

Even the new bridge seems to be taking a rather long time to complete, it's a pretty narrow distance they have to span.

the other extensions, eg. brides glen and citywest were built very quickly because they were built mostly on green field sites, so dissruption was not an issue.

In the centre of Dublin, there are much more constraints, here's a short list:

Access: getting construction vechicles into and out of the site through narrow streets.

Noise: this will probably be an issue in the more residential sections of the line eg cabra

Traffic disruption: because of the need to keep roads and footpaths open, the construction phases have to be rolling, the whole thing cannot be built at once, it has to be sectional to keep traffic moving.

Archaeology

Removal of statues

Diversion of underground services

infilling of 300 year old basements

All while de peeeepplle call Joe Duffy about how it's Teeeerrrrriblllee

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

I fervently hope that you are wrong.

Having a bus depot that close to the city is invaluable. Closing it would mean significant additional costs arising from dead running to/from depots.

I doubt he's right but in any case, it's not impossible for both to live together. The main bus depot in Stockholm is under a hotel. The main bus depot in Belfast is (sort of) under a hotel and office block. Arguably it's a better use of valuable city centre space (once you can solve the issues of noise and access).

L1011

markpb wrote: »

I doubt he's right but in any case, it's not impossible for both to live together. The main bus depot in Stockholm is under a hotel. The main bus depot in Belfast is (sort of) under a hotel and office block. Arguably it's a better use of valuable city centre space (once you can solve the issues of noise and access).

Belfast/Europa is a bus station rather than a depot - I have no idea about Stockholm but I'd imagine its the same. Doesn't quite have the capacity for 200 buses to be stabled overnight, same as Bus Aras doesn't.

I imagine a multi-storey is possible for buses but I can't imagine its cheap...

Hootanany

The suits have to justifie there wages that's why it's drawn out

cgcsb

Hootanany wrote: »

The suits have to justifie there wages that's why it's drawn out

four years is a reasonable time for such a complex project, if you want to see drawn out, check out Edinburgh trams

BowWow

But half the route is on a disused railway line. I too think it's a long build timeline.

monument

cgcsb wrote: »

Noise: this will probably be an issue in the more residential sections of the line eg cabra

Parnell Street and Dominick Street has a lot of high density housing. Other city centre streets have smaller amounts.

Noise can also be a big issue for the hospital, hotels, cinemas, offices, shops etc in the city centre.

BowWow wrote: »

But half the route is on a disused railway line. I too think it's a long build timeline.

The disused railway line is mostly a railway cutting beside people's houses and about half of that is really narrow with buildings on both sides.

Hootanany

Big Digger was clearing a site adjacent to Broombridge yesterday

nowecant

Short list has been announced for the next Luas operator

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2013/07/04/shortlist-announced-for-dublin-luas-contract/

cgcsb

BowWow wrote: »

But half the route is on a disused railway line. I too think it's a long build timeline.

And half of it isn't. What do you base your opinion on? Do you believe that you could prepare a swifter construction schedule.

LXFlyer

BowWow wrote: »

But half the route is on a disused railway line. I too think it's a long build timeline.

You obviously have an extremely short memory of the length of time the works took the last time (particularly on Harcourt Street) when the original lines were being built.

Exactly what part of the timeline would you unilaterally decide is "too long"?
http://www.luascrosscity.ie/whats-the-plan/timeline/

Maybe you should sit down then with the project engineers and explain that in person to them?

L1011

nowecant wrote: »

Short list has been announced for the next Luas operator

http://www.globalrailnews.com/2013/07/04/shortlist-announced-for-dublin-luas-contract/

Is this the first renewal or did Connex-Veoila-Transdev have a previous one? I seem to remember the original contract was fairly short but the old RPA/Luas project website content is all gone.

Unless one of the others comes in far cheaper I can't see anyone but Transdev getting it.

Quickelles

MYOB wrote: »

Unless one of the others comes in far cheaper I can't see anyone but Transdev getting it.

They have done a brilliant job.

Compare and contrast Irish Rail!

grimbergen

Quickelles wrote: »

They have done a brilliant job.

Compare and contrast Irish Rail!

Agree, great customer service. What kind of profit they making from it last year?

BowWow

lxflyer wrote: »

You obviously have an extremely short memory of the length of time the works took the last time (particularly on Harcourt Street) when the original lines were being built.
Exactly what part of the timeline would you unilaterally decide is "too long"?
http://www.luascrosscity.ie/whats-the-plan/timeline/
Maybe you should sit down then with the project engineers and explain that in person to them?

I don't have a short memory of the amount of time it took on Harcourt St. I drove around the city for a living, at the time, and am also very aware of the various construction projects over the years.
I just think in this country that capital projects seem to take longer than in other countries.
We have a 54 month build on BXD - Its 5.2Kms long - thats less than a 100 metres per month on average. 10 months per Km. Given that half of it is "off street" to me it just seems long.

1km in 14 days:eek:

http://railforthevalley.wordpress.com/2010/08/26/prefab-tram-track-fast-construction-friends-of-light-railstreetcar-take-note/

I admit I'm not a project engineer. The only vested interest I have is as a taxpayer.

Quickelles

BowWow wrote: »

I just think in this country that capital projects seem to take longer than in other countries.
We have a 54 month build on BXD - Its 5.2Kms long - thats less than a 100 metres per month on average. 10 months per Km. Given that half of it is "off street" to me it just seems long.

1km in 14 days:eek:

http://railforthevalley.wordpress.com/2010/08/26/prefab-tram-track-fast-construction-friends-of-light-railstreetcar-take-note/

I admit I'm not a project engineer. The only vested interest I have is as a taxpayer.

Given the speed with which we were completing roads projects, includung the intricate M50 upgrade, before the money ran out I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the long construction period is to stretch out the payments.

The decision to go with BXD took a year longer than it needed to; the "rush" to construction is fairly snail-like and I'm simply not convinced this couldn't be done start to finish in two years without excessive disruption.

And remember. when BXD is complete the pressure would be on to start the next scheme.

So more money saved.

Zhane

Quickelles wrote: »

Given the speed with which we were completing roads projects, includung the intricate M50 upgrade, before the money ran out I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the long construction period is to stretch out the payments.

The decision to go with BXD took a year longer than it needed to; the "rush" to construction is fairly snail-like and I'm simply not convinced this couldn't be done start to finish in two years without excessive disruption.

And remember. when BXD is complete the pressure would be on to start the next scheme.

So more money saved.

Oooooh let's start speculating. Luas to the Airport? ;-)

Peregrine

Zhane wrote: »

Oooooh let's start speculating. Luas to the Airport? ;-)

Dart Underground and Metro North

MrDerp

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Dart Underground and Metro North

Hopefully in that order

Hootanany

Construction workers are starting to demolish I think the old printing factory adjacent to Campells bridge is the proposed Flyover going ahead.

Quickelles

Hootanany wrote: »

Construction workers are starting to demolish I think the old printing factory adjacent to Campells bridge is the proposed Flyover going ahead.

No over-bridges being built for BXD so far as I can see. (Unless you count the one over the Liffey).

Peregrine

MrDerp wrote: »

Hopefully in that order

Indeed

[Jackass]

Who are the current operators of the LUAS? It is so refreshing to have a service that is up to international standards. Whoever it is, I hope they continue on. The only part of Dublin (or even Irish?) public transport that runs at an acceptable standard.

Hootanany

Quickelles wrote: »

No over-bridges being built for BXD so far as I can see. (Unless you count the one over the Liffey).

It's the next bridge up from Broombrigde has a level crossing on it.
It would make sense do it now it got planning permission I think.

Aard

[Jackass] wrote: »

Who are the current operators of the LUAS? It is so refreshing to have a service that is up to international standards. Whoever it is, I hope they continue on. The only part of Dublin (or even Irish?) public transport that runs at an acceptable standard.

Veolia.

TheBandicoot

Hootanany wrote: »

It's the next bridge up from Broombrigde has a level crossing on it.
It would make sense do it now it got planning permission I think.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Luas BXD, but yes, that bridge is going ahead. http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=124&n=288

[Jackass]

Aard wrote: »

Veolia.

And are they not reapplying to continue or are they reapplying under a different name does anyone know? Just curios.

monument

[Jackass] wrote: »

And are they not reapplying to continue or are they reapplying under a different name does anyone know? Just curios.

Veolia > Veolia Transdev > Transdev

Transdev took over Veolia (transport section) and then changed the brand to the transnational name of Veolia Transdev before going fully to Transdev, which has now happened.