Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

cgcsb

Stephen15 wrote: »

I dont why everyone thinks mn and du should be built. Firstly MN isint even going to be a proper metro as you may know it in other rather its going to be another light rail system basically a luas on steroids and not a proper full on metro running on a heavy rail system. DU is a bit of a joke as its going to be running from Pearse to Hueston which if you get off at Connolly can be done by Luas.

are you trolling?

Consonata

AngryLips wrote: »

Anyone who thinks that Metro North or Dart Underground would cause less disruption than Luas Cross City is living in cloud cuckoo land

Building an unsegragated transport network, whilst keeping transport moving is far far faaaaaaaar more difficult than building a tunnel, and it takes a lot longer. If MN ever broke ground, I could see it taking 3/4s the time it took to build BXD. Maybe even less.

ArmaniJeanss

markpb wrote: »

There would be giant holes in the ground at every station site. Not like the current roadworks are one or two lanes wide, these would be more like the DPT compounds at Whitehall and OTR. There would be hundreds of trucks per day moving excavated material out of the city centre. Spot sites would close all along the route to allow for ground preparation works.

Looking at the Crossrail numbers the tunnel boring moved at about 14 metres per day per machine.
I doubt that would need hundreds of trucks per day to remove material. Dozens maybe.

Consonata

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Looking at the Crossrail numbers the tunnel boring moved at about 14 metres per day per machine.
I doubt that would need hundreds of trucks per day to remove material. Dozens maybe.

Exactly, and thats for Crossrail, probably the biggest infrastructural project this decade.

AngryLips

Consonata wrote: »

Building an unsegragated transport network, whilst keeping transport moving is far far faaaaaaaar more difficult than building a tunnel, and it takes a lot longer. If MN ever broke ground, I could see it taking 3/4s the time it took to build BXD. Maybe even less.

I'm sorry, but are you really suggesting that placing a station box under O'Connell Bridge will be less disruptive to the city centre than Luas Cross City? Honestly, some people on this forum have been drinking the MN cool-aid

cgcsb

AngryLips wrote: »

I'm sorry, but are you really suggesting that placing a station box under O'Connell Bridge will be less disruptive to the city centre than Luas Cross City? Honestly, some people on this forum have been drinking the MN cool-aid

Station boxes were to be located in the existing central reserve of O'Connell ST and on the newly widened footpath of Westmoreland St. 'new metro north' will have station box at an as of yet unknown location, either way, yes it'd b less disruptive by a considerable margin.

monument

cgcsb wrote: »

Station boxes were to be located in the existing central reserve of O'Connell ST and on the newly widened footpath of Westmoreland St. 'new metro north' will have station box at an as of yet unknown location, either way, yes it'd b less disruptive by a considerable margin.

Are you sure?

Consonata

monument wrote: »

Are you sure?

Not going to lie, the fact that plans exist and weren't implemented saddens me even more

monument

Consonata wrote: »

Not going to lie, the fact that plans exist and weren't implemented saddens me even more

I'm open to correction, but, as far as I am aware, Metro North had full planning permission when the Government decided to kick it down the road (aka revise the plans).

As far as I'm aware, it also still has full planning permission.

Avada

monument wrote: »

I'm open to correction, but, as far as I am aware, Metro North had full planning permission when the Government decided to kick it down the road (aka revise the plans).

As far as I'm aware, it also still has full planning permission.

It has a railway order valid to 2021 as far as I remember

Stephen15

Avada wrote: »

It has a railway order valid to 2021 as far as I remember

So they'll wanna get moving

Stephen15

Another when Luas cross city comes in will this mean STT security guards more or less have the right to patrol the streets of Dublin CC or at least the streets the luas will be running.

Avada

Stephen15 wrote: »

So they'll wanna get moving

They've abandoned that railway order and are starting fresh

strassenwo!f

monument wrote: »

That was a ludicrous proposal (illustrated above) for O'Connell Bridge which, in terms of manpower and materials, would have effectively involved construction of an 8-level station at OCB - and that's not counting the cost of building the underground platforms under the river - for metro trains which would have been about a third of the length of the complete station.

But, apart from that, it is interesting to note the 4 organisations/plans which were shown at the bottom of the picture posted by Monument.

A lot of money was spent on Transport21, including a big launch with bigwigs at Dublin Castle and lots of stickering of buses. That was binned, with almost nothing achieved.

Nothing happened either with the NDP to 2013. And the RPA have gone as well.

Of the four shown in Monument's graphic, only The National Transport Authority are still around, but you'd also have to remember the demise of the Dublin Transportation Office and the Dublin Transport Authority in only the first 17 years of this century.

It is not indicative of a country which is serious about public transport in its capital city, or the country as a whole, that so many plans could have been produced - and that so many organisations could have been created and closed or subsumed into others - with such little result. It is appalling.

strassenwo!f

And there is probably some legal mechanism which allows the railway order for the metro to exist, even though the organisation which applied for it doesn't.

monument

strassenwo!f wrote: »

That was a ludicrous proposal (illustrated above) for O'Connell Bridge which, in terms of manpower and materials, would have effectively involved construction of an 8-level station at OCB - and that's not counting the cost of building the underground platforms under the river - for metro trains which would have been about a third of the length of the complete station.

But, apart from that, it is interesting to note the 4 organisations/plans which were shown at the bottom of the picture posted by Monument.

A lot of money was spent on Transport21, including a big launch with bigwigs at Dublin Castle and lots of stickering of buses. That was binned, with almost nothing achieved.

Nothing happened either with the NDP to 2013. And the RPA have gone as well.

Of the four shown in Monument's graphic, only The National Transport Authority are still around, but you'd also have to remember the demise of the Dublin Transportation Office and the Dublin Transport Authority in only the first 17 years of this century.

It is not indicative of a country which is serious about public transport in its capital city, or the country as a whole, that so many plans could have been produced - and that so many organisations could have been created and closed or subsumed into others - with such little result. It is appalling.

JUST DROP IT!!!

Stephen15

The RPA aren't gone they merged with the NRA to form TII.

strassenwo!f

Stephen15 wrote: »

The RPA aren't gone they merged with the NRA to form TII.

Oh yes of course, the TII. Yet another quango whose remit includes providing public transport infrastructure in Dublin. The list goes on and on.

Stephen15

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Oh yes of course, the TII. Yet another quango whose remit includes providing public transport infrastructure in Dublin. The list goes on and on.

I know its a bit of a joke how many different public transport providers in the Dublin area. Heres a list
NTA
Dublin Bus
Irish Rail
Bus Eireann
Transdev
TII
Eirebus
First Group
Dublin Coach
Dualway

Thats ten operators. And then theres the ones that no longer exist

Jamie2k9

Stephen15 wrote: »

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Oh yes of course, the TII. Yet another quango whose remit includes providing public transport infrastructure in Dublin. The list goes on and on.

I know its a bit of a joke how many different public transport providers in the Dublin area. Heres a list
NTA
Dublin Bus
Irish Rail
Bus Eireann
Transdev
TII
Eirebus
First Group
Dublin Coach
Dualway

Thats ten operators. And then theres the ones that no longer exist

Can I ask what transport the NTA and TII provide?!

I think the number of operators is positive, it cannot be a case of DB for the whole of Dublin.

Telchak

Stephen15 wrote: »

I know its a bit of a joke how many different public transport providers in the Dublin area. Heres a list
NTA
Dublin Bus
Irish Rail
Bus Eireann
Transdev
TII
Eirebus
First Group
Dublin Coach
Dualway

Thats ten operators. And then theres the ones that no longer exist

The NTA and TII are not operators. NTA is a regulator, and TII is an infrastructure agency.

Stephen15

Telchak wrote: »

The NTA and TII are not operators. NTA is a regulator, and TII is an infrastructure agency.

Did i say operators they are providers which i said.

MJohnston

Stephen15 wrote: »

Did i say operators they are providers which i said.

They are not providers, at least not in the sense with which you equate them to operators.

Stephen15

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Can I ask what transport the NTA and TII provide?!

I think the number of operators is positive, it cannot be a case of DB for the whole of Dublin.

The NTA own a large proportion of DB and BE buses buses so they do provide public transport in Dublin. We should be going for a more integrated network. TII own all the luas infustructure including stops I not not if they own trams also so yes they do provide transport. Actually you could nearly include all four councils in that bracket aswell DCC own bus shelters so they help provide transport aswell. Most cities only have one transport provider and the service could tendered but not a load of state owned quangos involved just one. All private providers should be made accept leap aswell or have their licence revoked.

Peregrine

Stephen15 wrote: »

The NTA own a large proportion of DB and BE buses buses so they do provide public transport in Dublin. We should be going for a more integrated network. TII own all the luas infustructure including stops I not not if they own trams also so yes they do provide transport. Actually you could nearly include all four councils in that bracket aswell DCC own bus shelters so they help provide transport aswell. Most cities only have one transport provider and the service could tendered but not a load of state owned quangos involved just one. All private providers should be made accept leap aswell or have their licence revoked.

Go on, so. List a few of the cities that only have one public transport 'provider' in the sense you're speaking of.

Tell us about these cities that has a single public transport provider that owns and operates buses, trains, trams and all associated infrastructure, regulates itself AND has no other private bus operators competing with it.

Edit: And roads and taxi regulation. I think that covers everything you've listed.

Stephen15

Peregrine wrote: »

Go on, so. List a few of the cities that only have one public transport 'provider' in the sense you're speaking of.

Tell us about these cities that has a single public transport provider that owns and operates buses, trains, trams and all associated infrastructure, regulates itself AND has no other private bus operators competing with it.

Berlin
Paris
London
Barcelona
Lisbon
Milan
Rome
Madrid
Copenhagen

CatInABox

Stephen15 wrote: »

Berlin
Paris
London
Barcelona
Lisbon
Milan
Rome
Madrid
Copenhagen

From the TFL wiki:

TfL has responsibility for London's network of principal road routes, for various rail networks including the London Underground, London Overground, Docklands Light Railway and TfL Rail, for London's trams, buses and taxis, for cycling provision, and for river services. The underlying services are provided by a mixture of wholly owned subsidiary companies (principally London Underground), by private sector franchisees (the remaining rail services, trams and most buses) and by licensees (some buses, taxis and river services). TfL is also responsible, jointly with the national Department for Transport (DfT), for commissioning the construction of the new Crossrail line, and will be responsible for franchising its operation once completed.

I'd imagine the rest of those cities would have something similar, a mix of public and private bodies.

Peregrine

Stephen15 wrote: »

Berlin
Paris
London
Barcelona
Lisbon
Milan
Rome
Madrid
Copenhagen

I'll give you London. It's franchised but it qualifies. I suggest that you actually look into the other ones. Off the top of my head, I know that at least half of them don't qualify the criteria I set based on your posts. So this statement still remains false:

Most cities only have one transport provider

Stephen15

Peregrine wrote: »

I'll give you London. It's franchised but it qualifies. I suggest that you actually look into the other ones. Off the top of my head, I know that at least half of them don't qualify the criteria I set based on your posts. So this statement still remains false:

Its not really the privates i have a problem with its the sheer amount of state owned quangos involved. Most of the cities i mentioned have a similar model to London. I cant think of any cities with five state owned providers of public transport most cities only have one or two. Each one if those providers has an overpaid board of directors and the usual that goes with state owned bodies.

Muahahaha

Any news on when delivery of the new trams is expected? And where will they be commissioned & stored, all at the new facility in Broombridge or will some go to Sandyford?

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we stick to the Luas BXD line - Cross city.

Not bickering about other matters. MN and DU have their own threads, and quangos are off topic here.

Start another thread on quangos if you want.

Tusky

Has anyone pointed out how ugly the new Luas signs are that are popping up everywhere? Green, yellow and blue - v.tacky and cheap looking.

Peregrine

Tusky wrote: »

Has anyone pointed out how ugly the new Luas signs are that are popping up everywhere? Green, yellow and blue - v.tacky and cheap looking.

The Cross City signs? They should be gone once Cross City is finished. A construction site isn't really the place for expensive designs.

Tusky

Peregrine wrote: »

The Cross City signs? They should be gone once Cross City is finished. A construction site isn't really the place for expensive designs.

I assumed they would be replaced with permanent signs but with the same design? Would be glad if that's not the case.

MICKEYG

I was in town and the network signs are a bit misleading (to me anyway).
The one way stops (Westmoreland Street for example) are shown with a full circle when really they should have a semi-circle. I thought that was the standard illustration but maybe I am wrong.

spacetweek

MICKEYG wrote: »

I was in town and the network signs are a bit misleading (to me anyway).
The one way stops (Westmoreland Street for example) are shown with a full circle when really they should have a semi-circle. I thought that was the standard illustration but maybe I am wrong.

Nah, you're right. They should be semi. But all those signs will be replaced with the final design soon anyway.

Peregrine

Tusky wrote: »

I assumed they would be replaced with permanent signs but with the same design? Would be glad if that's not the case.

There's no reason why the Cross City name or signs should be used after construction. Everything should have standard Luas design.

D.L.R.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm wondering why they preferred Boombridge over going out the Navan Road

Simple, its where the old Broadstone alignment goes. Cheap and easy is the name of the game when it comes to public transport in Dublin.

Pixel Eater

Tusky wrote: »

Has anyone pointed out how ugly the new Luas signs are that are popping up everywhere? Green, yellow and blue - v.tacky and cheap looking.

I think the Luas Cross City graphic design is quite nice actually, nice vibrant blues and greens. The current Luas branding is quite weak in my opinion.

Stephen15

Pixel Eater wrote: »

I think the Luas Cross City graphic design is quite nice actually, nice vibrant blues and greens. The current Luas branding is quite weak in my opinion.

It was up to me I'd scrap all individual luas branding and go for more TFI branding.

marno21

This is a fairly straightforward extension to the Green line. Why is there any need for blue at all?

Isn't blue being used for Metro North?

Pixel Eater

Stephen15 wrote: »

It was up to me I'd scrap all individual luas branding and go for more TFI branding.

I'd definitely be in favour of scrapping it and replacing it with something much stronger and definitive. I actually think Dublin Bus has very strong branding; that could be used as a starting point for a more integrated transport design perhaps.

LeinsterDub

marno21 wrote: »

This is a fairly straightforward extension to the Green line. Why is there any need for blue at all?

Isn't blue being used for Metro North?

Blue indicates lines under construction apparently

D14Rugby

How do people think the whole buses on the luas line will work? Personally I think first while there'll be a few close calls but as the drivers get more used to it it'll be fine

LeinsterDub

D14Rugby wrote: »

How do people think the whole buses on the luas line will work? Personally I think first while there'll be a few close calls but as the drivers get more used to it it'll be fine

Luas has operated with shared space for over 12 years. There won't be any major issues

D14Rugby

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Luas has operated with shared space for over 12 years. There won't be any major issues

Oh yeah, forgot about those sections already there, approach to Harcourt street being one?

MJohnston

D14Rugby wrote: »

Oh yeah, forgot about those sections already there, approach to Harcourt street being one?

The Red Line around James' shares with private car traffic too.

My main concern with Luas + Buses will be on OCS, where tour buses have a habit of not properly pulling into the kerb and kind of jutting out into the non-bus-lane, which is now a Luas track.

LeinsterDub

D14Rugby wrote: »

Oh yeah, forgot about those sections already there, approach to Harcourt street being one?

The majority of the red line post St James

spacetweek

D.L.R. wrote: »

Simple, its where the old Broadstone alignment goes. Cheap and easy is the name of the game when it comes to public transport in Dublin.

Why on earth would you use the Navan Road when you had a former railway line available.

LeinsterDub

Is it really wise to have a load of trees in the middle of the O'Connell St stop? Looks like they will impede access especially for the disabled