Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

FreudianSlippers

spacetweek wrote: »

Why on earth would you use the Navan Road when you had a former railway line available.

I don't think it could have been more obvious that it was referring to Parkway station and not the actual Navan Road (which is a ****show as is).

Pixel Eater

If it went to the Navan Road Parkway would not just be duplicating the already exciting rail line? On paper it somewhat makes sense to go to Broombridge; it's just a pity that the station is such a kip.

AngryLips

Pixel Eater wrote: »

If it went to the Navan Road Parkway would not just be duplicating the already exciting rail line? On paper it somewhat makes sense to go to Broombridge; it's just a pity that the station is such a kip.

How else would you suggest regenerating the area as an alternative to building new infrastructure?

MJohnston

Pixel Eater wrote: »

If it went to the Navan Road Parkway would not just be duplicating the already exciting rail line? On paper it somewhat makes sense to go to Broombridge; it's just a pity that the station is such a kip.

Duplicating, but also then able to reuse Navan Road station's Park and Ride, which would provide a substantial boost to commuters from the N3 direction.

Pixel Eater

AngryLips wrote: »

How else would you suggest regenerating the area as an alternative to building new infrastructure?

Simply build residential units on the vacant line/closed industrial units in the area but I agree, hopefully the Luas stop will make this happen and improve the station, and area in general.

MJohnston wrote: »

Duplicating, but also then able to reuse Navan Road station's Park and Ride, which would provide a substantial boost to commuters from the N3 direction.

Shouldn't the park and ride allow people to use the train and then hop on the Luas at Broombridge?

MJohnston

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Shouldn't the park and ride allow people to use the train and then hop on the Luas at Broombridge?

That could happen, but it probably won't because the Maynooth line is considerably lower frequency compared to the Luas, the ticketing isn't integrated, etc.

markpb

MJohnston wrote: »

That could happen, but it probably won't because the Maynooth line is considerably lower frequency compared to the Luas, the ticketing isn't integrated, etc.

There'll be no problem transferring from Western line to Luas, I'd be surprised if people don't do it. Going in the opposite direction just means that people will have to time their connection carefully but this is no difficult to people currently going to Pearse or Connolly by bus or red luas line today.

Integrated ticketing does exist today both for occasional users and regular commuters. There'll be a price penalty which will discourage people from changing to Luas unless it's significantly closer to their destination but people transfer between train, tram and bus today, I don't see why Broombridge would be any different.

D14Rugby

Is there a general luas developments thread or is this the appropriate one for me to ask questions just about the luas in general in?

MJohnston

markpb wrote: »

There'll be no problem transferring from Western line to Luas, I'd be surprised if people don't do it.

Yes, there will be people doing it, but I was referring specifically to people parking at Navan Road Parkway, then transferring to Luas at Broombridge. That particular switch I don't think will happen, because the hassle essentially outweighs the benefit.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

There'll be no problem transferring from Western line to Luas, I'd be surprised if people don't do it. Going in the opposite direction just means that people will have to time their connection carefully but this is no difficult to people currently going to Pearse or Connolly by bus or red luas line today.

Integrated ticketing does exist today both for occasional users and regular commuters. There'll be a price penalty which will discourage people from changing to Luas unless it's significantly closer to their destination but people transfer between train, tram and bus today, I don't see why Broombridge would be any different.

The frequency may militate against that.

People are happy to transfer between modes when both services are high frequency, but when one isn't then it can be a disincentive.

The Maynooth line is hourly off-peak, while only half the trams will go to Broombridge, so it's a lot more difficult to predict when the trams will get to Broombridge, and a long wait for the next train!

At least if you miss a train at Heuston or Connolly, there are facilities and buses aren't too far away. That's not the case at Broombridge.

Stephen15

lxflyer wrote: »

The frequency may militate against that.

People are happy to transfer between modes when both services are high frequency, but when one isn't then it can be a disincentive.

The Maynooth line is hourly off-peak, while only half the trams will go to Broombridge, so it's a lot more difficult to predict when the trams will get to Broombridge, and a long wait for the next train!

At least if you miss a train at Heuston or Connolly, there are facilities and buses aren't too far away. That's not the case at Broombridge.

In the long term there may be a Dart extension to Maynooth so that will increase Maynooth line frequency dramatically. I'd say in the shorter term passengers will just have to leave good timing in order to get to Broombridge.

Tbh I reckon the luas station will mainly serve people living in the local area rather than interconnecting rail passengers. Unless facilities and frequency are improved.

Zebra3

Have Irish Rail any plans to upgrade Broombridge stn after the Luas opens next door?

Jamie2k9

Zebra3 wrote: »

Have Irish Rail any plans to upgrade Broombridge stn after the Luas opens next door?

What do you want upgraded??

MayoSalmon

Jamie2k9 wrote:

What do you want upgraded??

An actual station and not just 2 platforms would be a start?!

MJohnston

Stephen15 wrote: »

Tbh I reckon the luas station will mainly serve people living in the local area rather than interconnecting rail passengers. Unless facilities and frequency are improved.

Cross City's Broombridge interchange will allow people in the N3 corridor and along the Maynooth commuter lines to work in places with heavy amounts of offices like Sandyford, which aren't really accessible right now to them without driving.

Jamie2k9

MayoSalmon wrote: »

An actual station and not just 2 platforms would be a start?!

So build an actual station?

IE won't staff it so why wast the money, you might get a TMV back if your lucky.

Stephen15

Im not familiar with Broombridge station does it presently even have ticket machines. I dont think opening a ticket office is a good idea with ticket machines becoming the norm these days I cant really see it being nessecary. Also most people use leap cards now.

MJohnston

It has a couple of shelters, and maybe Leap validators iirc. That's it.

ongarboy

Stephen15 wrote: »

Im not familiar with Broombridge station does it presently even have ticket machines. I dont think opening a ticket office is a good idea with ticket machines becoming the norm these days I cant really see it being nessecary. Also most people use leap cards now.

Agreed. They opened a manned ticket desk at Hansfield back in 2013 when that station opened and an IR worker sat there every morning twiddling his thumbs as not one passenger required his services until they eventually shut it a  couple of months later. As long as there are several ticket machines and some shelters with seating, RTPI and intercoms and those facilities maintained, I don't see what a physical station can add to the passenger experience.

D.L.R.

MJohnston wrote: »

Cross City's Broombridge interchange will allow people in the N3 corridor and along the Maynooth commuter lines to work in places with heavy amounts of offices like Sandyford, which aren't really accessible right now to them without driving.

It'll be quicker for Maynooth-Sandyford commuters to stay on the train till Tara St and just walk across to Trinity. Broombridge interchange will only really be useful for people headed to the north city.

MJohnston

D.L.R. wrote: »

It'll be quicker for Maynooth-Sandyford commuters to stay on the train till Tara St and just walk across to Trinity. Broombridge interchange will only really be useful for people headed to the north city.

Maybe, although I remember the Connolly bottleneck having a substantial impact on Maynooth line trains, and then not all of them go to Pearse/GCD either.

markpb

D.L.R. wrote: »

It'll be quicker for Maynooth-Sandyford commuters to stay on the train till Tara St and just walk across to Trinity. Broombridge interchange will only really be useful for people headed to the north city.

It's 12-14 minutes by train from Broombridge to Tara, another 8-10 minutes to St Stephens Green and a minute or two to exit Tara St when it's busy. The luas is likely to take about 20 minutes to do the same so there's no time difference between them.

Plus people do like to avoid walking in the rain and also like getting on a tram at the start when it's quiet and they'll get a seat.

Chivito550

spacetweek wrote: »

Why on earth would you use the Navan Road when you had a former railway line available.

Just out of interest, we don't happen to have any other unused former railway lines lying around by any chance, that we could throw a future LUAS into?

AngryLips

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just out of interest, we don't happen to have any other unused former railway lines lying around by any chance, that we could throw a future LUAS into?

There's one in Cork City I believe

D14Rugby

MayoSalmon wrote: »

An actual station and not just 2 platforms would be a start?!

In fairness as far a luas are concerned you're only ever at a stop 5-10 minutes max so a full station isn't really needed just a shelter and ticket machines

Peregrine

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just out of interest, we don't happen to have any other unused former railway lines lying around by any chance, that we could throw a future LUAS into?

Nothing usable in Dublin AFAIR. There was the Harcourt line between Brides Glen and Bray but it's been mostly built over.

AngryLips wrote: »

There's one in Cork City I believe

The Passage West line? It was build on from Albert Road to PUC. It's a greenway from PUC to Passage West with a bit missing at Rochestown. It might be possible to put a Luas line there if the south docks gets redeveloped.

loyatemu

Peregrine wrote: »

Nothing usable in Dublin AFAIR. There was the Harcourt line between Brides Glen and Bray but it's been mostly built over.

"mostly" isn't correct - there's an office building on the line at Cherrywood and a couple of houses near where it joined the Wexford line, otherwise I think it's clear. The proposed Bray Luas takes a different route though to serve a wider catchment area.

Stephen15

loyatemu wrote: »

"mostly" isn't correct - there's an office building on the line at Cherrywood and a couple of houses near where it joined the Wexford line, otherwise I think it's clear. The proposed Bray Luas takes a different route though to serve a wider catchment area.

I wouldnt put it top of thee agenda. Bray has the Dart and the high frequency 145 it dosent really need the Luas money better spent elsewhere.

marno21

Stephen15 wrote: »

I wouldnt put it top of thee agenda. Bray has the Dart and the high frequency 145 it dosent really need the Luas money better spent elsewhere.

I presume the idea behind the extension to Bray is to serve areas parallel to the DART that would require a CC interchange and back out the Luas for a journey e.g. Sandyford, Carrickmines, Cherrywood etc.

The traffic numbers on the N11 need sorting and if it can be shown a Luas will do so then I'm all for it. I wouldn't say it's priority all the same.

Peregrine

loyatemu wrote: »

"mostly" isn't correct - there's an office building on the line at Cherrywood and a couple of houses near where it joined the Wexford line, otherwise I think it's clear. The proposed Bray Luas takes a different route though to serve a wider catchment area.

Are there not pylons on it from Cherrywood to the M11? And from the M11 to the Bray junction, there's a dozen buildings in Shankill that would have to be demolished if it were to be used.

Complete non-runner. A different route is the only option.

marno21

Peregrine wrote: »

Are there not pylons on it from Cherrywood to the M11? And from the M11 to the Bray junction, there's a dozen buildings in Shankill that would have to be demolished if it were to be used.

Complete non-runner. A different route is the only option.

Pylons are easily moved in fairness. Houses are another story but 1/2 would be fairly acceptable. Weren't 1/2 of the old Harcourt line stations that became lived in cleared out for the Green Line?

strassenwo!f

I'm not aware that there has been a proper examination of the possibility of a DART link along the river valley around Shankill between Killiney and Cherrywood.

To my mind, this would provide a much better opportunity for a park-and-ride arrangement for North Wicklow (and South Dublin residents in that area) to access the DART and LUAS. It's right beside the M50 and M11, and there's lots of space.

Much better than trying to force all these people through the narrow streets of Bray to get access to the DART, or the LUAS, if it happens.

LXFlyer

marno21 wrote: »

I presume the idea behind the extension to Bray is to serve areas parallel to the DART that would require a CC interchange and back out the Luas for a journey e.g. Sandyford, Carrickmines, Cherrywood etc.

The traffic numbers on the N11 need sorting and if it can be shown a Luas will do so then I'm all for it. I wouldn't say it's priority all the same.

There is virtually nowhere that would require going to the city centre and back out on the LUAS again.

There are already buses linking the DART line area with those areas you mention above.

dixiefly

lxflyer wrote: »

The frequency may militate against that.

People are happy to transfer between modes when both services are high frequency, but when one isn't then it can be a disincentive.

The Maynooth line is hourly off-peak, while only half the trams will go to Broombridge, so it's a lot more difficult to predict when the trams will get to Broombridge, and a long wait for the next train!

At least if you miss a train at Heuston or Connolly, there are facilities and buses aren't too far away. That's not the case at Broombridge.

Are all the luas trams not going to Broombridge when it opens? I read it to be end of line and assumed that ALL trams would stop at Broombridge.

LXFlyer

dixiefly wrote: »

Are all the luas trams not going to Broombridge when it opens? I read it to be end of line and assumed that ALL trams would stop at Broombridge.

No - only half of them.

The other half will turn at the top of O'Connell Street at Parnell stop and return southwards.

dixiefly

What are the chances of a park and ride being built at Broombridge? From what I know there is a fair bit of available ground around there. Surely the cost would be negligible in comparison to the overall cost of the Luas.

dixiefly

lxflyer wrote: »

No - only half of them.

The other half will turn at the top of O'Connell Street at Parnell stop and return southwards.

Thanks. Probably understandable but a bit of a bummer for anyone trying to commute at a an efficient time.

Has there been any indication as to how frequent the trams will be leaving Broombridge?

dixiefly

markpb wrote: »

It's 12-14 minutes by train from Broombridge to Tara, another 8-10 minutes to St Stephens Green and a minute or two to exit Tara St when it's busy. The luas is likely to take about 20 minutes to do the same so there's no time difference between them.

Plus people do like to avoid walking in the rain and also like getting on a tram at the start when it's quiet and they'll get a seat.

I think you are probably right about the seat option. The times I have taken the train from M3 parkway and changed at Clonsilla for Tara St I often didnt get a seat on the Maynooth train. At least, by getting off at Broombridge and taking the Luas you are almost guaranteed a seat on the Luas.

LXFlyer

dixiefly wrote: »

What are the chances of a park and ride being built at Broombridge? From what I know there is a fair bit of available ground around there. Surely the cost would be negligible in comparison to the overall cost of the Luas.

The depot is taking up most of the space on the railway side - don't think there is room left for a P & R facility.

LXFlyer

dixiefly wrote: »

Thanks. Probably understandable but a bit of a bummer for anyone trying to commute at a an efficient time.

Has there been any indication as to how frequent the trams will be leaving Broombridge?

Well if it's 20 trams an hour at peak times through the city, then that's 10 an hour to/from Broombridge, meaning one every 6 minutes.

That will clearly drop during the off-peak.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

It's 12-14 minutes by train from Broombridge to Tara, another 8-10 minutes to St Stephens Green and a minute or two to exit Tara St when it's busy. The luas is likely to take about 20 minutes to do the same so there's no time difference between them.

Plus people do like to avoid walking in the rain and also like getting on a tram at the start when it's quiet and they'll get a seat.

Are there really that many people making the commute from D15 (or beyond) to Sandyford by public transport though?

Most would surely drive? It would still be a punishing commute by public transport, LUAS or no LUAS.

Stephen15

lxflyer wrote: »

Are there really that many people making the commute from D15 (or beyond) to Sandyford by public transport though?

Most would surely drive? It would still be a punishing commute by public transport, LUAS or no LUAS.

I doubt theres huge numbers but there probably would be some I'd say there might be some that work in other areas on the green line such as Ranelagh, Harcourt Street, Dundrum and even Cherrywood.

LXFlyer

Stephen15 wrote: »

I doubt theres huge numbers but there probably would be some I'd say there might be some that work in other areas on the green line such as Ranelagh, Harcourt Street, Dundrum and even Cherrywood.

Anyone working in the city centre up to Harcourt Street would presumably get the train to one of the three city centre stations and walk.

By transferring to LUAS they're incurring additional costs up to EUR8 per week if using LEAP pay-as-you-go (capping doesn't even come into play!).

I have to say I still think the main market for transfers will be people going to the Phibsboro, Grangegorman and north city centre areas.

markpb

dixiefly wrote: »

What are the chances of a park and ride being built at Broombridge? From what I know there is a fair bit of available ground around there. Surely the cost would be negligible in comparison to the overall cost of the Luas.

I'm not sure if there's a benefit in putting a P&R station so close to the city centre, it would just create local traffic congestion. If there was space there, it would be better utilised as mid to high density residential or office blocks.

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

Anyone working in the city centre up to Harcourt Street would presumably get the train to one of the three city centre stations and walk.

I think you're probably right about the majority of people are heading to the north city centre but I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers transferring to luas doesn't grow over time. Anyone coming from West Dublin and working on Harcourt/Hatch would have a 15-20 minute walk each way from Pearse. That's more than enough for people to discount public transport entirely. Now they'll have the option of a relatively seamless transfer to luas and no walking at all.

lxflyer

lxflyer wrote: »

Anyone working in the city centre up to Harcourt Street would presumably get the train to one of the three city centre stations and walk.

Its this thinking that gave us two separate lines in the first place. 'Shur its only a 20-25 minute walk from Connelly to Stephens Green. Grand bit of a stroll before work' :rolleyes:

Forgetting that it rains 6 months of the year, and if you have to wear a suit for work, you may not want to arrive in work sweaty.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

I think you're probably right about the majority of people are heading to the north city centre but I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers transferring to luas doesn't grow over time. Anyone coming from West Dublin and working on Harcourt/Hatch would have a 15-20 minute walk each way from Pearse. That's more than enough for people to discount public transport entirely. Now they'll have the option of a relatively seamless transfer to luas and no walking at all.

I think that the comment about people viewing the walk as too much is OTT.

One look at the numbers walking along SSG East and Merrion Square West during rush hour will tell you that plenty of people do it every day.

Is it worth paying EUR8 per week extra to use the LUAS? I wouldn't be so sure. Plenty of people (myself included) actually enjoy a short walk before/after work.

LXFlyer

Deleted User wrote: »

Its this thinking that gave us two separate lines in the first place. 'Shur its only a 20-25 minute walk from Connelly to Stephens Green. Grand bit of a stroll before work' :rolleyes:

Forgetting that it rains 6 months of the year, and if you have to wear a suit for work, you may not want to arrive in work sweaty.

I'm not talking about walking from Connolly, but the walk from Pearse to that area is perfectly doable.

I actually have always had a 10-15 minute walk as part of my commute and I wear a suit - it's certainly not the cataclysmic event some people seem to think.

I'm merely saying that I still believe that people are overstating in their minds the number of people that will transfer at Broombridge - not least because of the additional fare penalty.

I'm certainly not downplaying the extension - but I think that the frequency and fare penalty will militate against huge numbers of transfers at Broombridge.

PhoenixParker

markpb wrote: »

I think you're probably right about the majority of people are heading to the north city centre but I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers transferring to luas doesn't grow over time. Anyone coming from West Dublin and working on Harcourt/Hatch would have a 15-20 minute walk each way from Pearse. That's more than enough for people to discount public transport entirely. Now they'll have the option of a relatively seamless transfer to luas and no walking at all.

Also don't discount those working west of the Luas line.
Places like clanbrassil st, Thomas st, Portobello, anywhere west of capel street.

Connolly, Pearse and Tara are inconvenient for huge chunks of the city centre. The Luas line goes much closer to the city centre proper. On a drizzly day I could see many people switching to the Luas to get themselves ten minutes closer to work.

Another aspect is that many people prefer a walk at only one end. Someone who lives twenty minute from the station and then needs to walk twenty minutes from the office will typically consider that unfeasible whereas twenty minute on one end and five on the other is fine.

LXFlyer

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Also don't discount those working west of the Luas line.
Places like clanbrassil st, Thomas st, Portobello, anywhere west of capel street.

Connolly, Pearse and Tara are inconvenient for huge chunks of the city centre. The Luas line goes much closer to the city centre proper. On a drizzly day I could see many people switching to the Luas to get themselves ten minutes closer to work.

Another aspect is that many people prefer a walk at only one end. Someone who lives twenty minute from the station and then needs to walk twenty minutes from the office will typically consider that unfeasible whereas twenty minute on one end and five on the other is fine.

Fair point regarding the walk at either end.

But, again playing devil's advocate, would people from neighbourhoods along the Maynooth line going to work west of Capel Street, or to the Clanbrassil St or Thomas St areas be using the train in the first place?

I doubt it to be honest, as the buses along the Lucan and Blanchardstown QBCs bring them much closer, and will still do even with the LUAS extension.

As I said - the real winners are anyone working in the Phibsboro, going to DIT Grangegorman and those working in the Parnell Street areas.