Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

AngryLips

Does it go slower than 30kph on road sections?

Carawaystick

AngryLips wrote: »

Does it go slower than 30kph on road sections?

Speed limit on Harcourt st is 35

LXFlyer

syklops wrote: »

It is very slow in places. From Charlemont to Stephens Green particularly.

Well unless you want trams to de-rail as they go around the tight bends from Peter Place onto Adelaide Road, and from Adelaide Road onto Harcourt Street there is not a lot that can be done about that.

Running trams on-street in the city centre area will always be slower than on a reserved track space given the potential hazards (cars, pedestrians etc.).

syklops

lxflyer wrote: »

Well unless you want trams to de-rail as they go around the tight bends from Peter Place onto Adelaide Road, and from Adelaide Road onto Harcourt Street there is not a lot that can be done about that.

Running trams on-street in the city centre area will always be slower than on a reserved track space given the potential hazards (cars, pedestrians etc.).

Compared to trams in other cities, the luas is a bit on the slow side.

monument

syklops wrote: »

Compared to trams in other cities, the luas is a bit on the slow side.

Compare to what trams in what cities? And do these trams have such tight curves to take?

donvito99

monument wrote: »

Compare to what trams in what cities? And do these trams have such tight curves to take?

They're also typically smaller narrower and carry less people.

Trams here are over 40m and closer to metro then they are what would normally be identified as a "tram".

Idbatterim

anks for clearing that up. I just think, unless its going underground the LUAS between st stephens green and parnell st is pointless for the reasons I outlined above. I would rather they invest the money in Dart underground, although I know it wouldn't cover the full cost.

this is the plan EVENTUALLY! the line would go underground around Ranelagh I think... The green line needs to be extended to Bray to link with Dart, start building the MN that has permission asap (having the city totally gridlocked to "save" peanuts in the scheme of things is entirely unacceptable) and also as I have mentioned, get the thing to surface around Ranelagh, have it totally segregated...

The 3rd world infrastructure in this city is a joke and the cost to solve it is also a joke in the scheme of things! Less than 10% of a years budget and a huge amount of that figure will simply go back into government coffers anyway...

1huge1

Idbatterim wrote: »

this is the plan EVENTUALLY! the line would go underground around Ranelagh I think... The green line needs to be extended to Bray to link with Dart, start building the MN that has permission asap (having the city totally gridlocked to "save" peanuts in the scheme of things is entirely unacceptable) and also as I have mentioned, get the thing to surface around Ranelagh, have it totally segregated...

I'm no expert when it comes to the planning of these things, I know Metro North is going back into planning in 2016 with the expectation that construction will start ca. 2021.

But is the 5 year gap necessary, considering all the work that has already been put into it? Is there a chance that given the increased congestion that this may be brought forward? (wishful thinking I know)

Eventually put it underground!
Bloody typical, do it on the cheap and end up paying twice!
It's always far cheaper to do it right first time.

monument

donvito99 wrote: »

They're also typically smaller narrower and carry less people.

Trams here are over 40m and closer to metro then they are what would normally be identified as a "tram".

Luas uses trams which are common in Europe and elsewhere...

"The Citadis is a family of low-floor trams (streetcars) and light rail vehicles built by Alstom. More than 1140 Citadis trams are in use in over 28 cities,[1] including: Bordeaux, Grenoble, Lyon, Montpellier, Rouen, Orléans, the Paris area, Nottingham, Algiers, Oran, Constantine, Barcelona, Dubai, Dublin, Istanbul, Gdańsk, Katowice, Adelaide, Melbourne, Jerusalem, Rabat, Casablanca, Tunis and Rotterdam"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_Citadis

42m is one standard type of Citadis and the above link includes links to other manufacturer's similar type trams -- photos of at least a few look to be at least 40m.

It's not the length of the "tram" that matter, it's the length of the individual cars that matter when it comes to tight corners.

monument

Re the length of trams, Luas is fairly normal compared to many systems I have seen in person and online... Here's a few image examples of long trams:

Amsterdam:
http://www.jlgrealestate.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/CT_Trams_Afb.-01.jpg

Berlin:
http://www.techreleased.com/automotive/bombardier-wins-order-for-39-additional-flexity-berlin-trams/

Paris:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Tramway-line-T3B-in-Paris-near-canal-de-l'Ourcq-DSC_0083.jpg

Bordeaux:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/yarra-trams-may-introduce-45m-trams-to-cope-with-growing-demand-in-melbourne/story-e6frf7kx-1226589466107

Nottingham:
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/mar/09/communities.transportintheuk

Istanbul:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Istanbul_T1_line_Alstom_Citadis_tram.jpg
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bombardier_Flexity_Istanbul.jpg#mw-jump-to-license

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Eventually put it underground!
Bloody typical, do it on the cheap and end up paying twice!
It's always far cheaper to do it right first time.

No, it won't eventually go underground -- loads of cities have in recent years put in on-surface trams (only some with cut and cover in small areas).

Like in Dublin's plans, the on-surface trams in many of these cities are separate to plans for or existing underground metro or suburban railways.

AngryLips

Carawaystick wrote: »

Speed limit on Harcourt st is 35

My point is that if they are not going any slower than the speed limit then they aren't any slower than other road traffic. Effectively, they're not slow.

Sam Russell

AngryLips wrote: »

My point is that if they are not going any slower than the speed limit then they aren't any slower than other road traffic. Effectively, they're not slow.

That is the limit for trams, not road users.

AngryLips

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is the limit for trams, not road users.

City centre speed limits are set at 30kph

monument

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is the limit for trams, not road users.

AngryLips wrote: »

City centre speed limits are set at 30kph

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content//RoadsandTraffic/generaltrafficmeasures/Documents/TD%203369_06%2030%20km%20hr%20City%20Centre%20approved%20%20Mar%202011%20.pdf

Harcourt Street is outside the current 30km/h zone. Although any motorist doing 50km/h on that street most of the time, should not be driving.

Pixel Eater

A much easier way to speed up the LUAS would be to give it absolute priority at all traffic lights (well maybe with the exception of O'Connell Street). It's so frustrating when it stalls at minor roads, sometimes with no traffic, especially on the section between Heuston and Connolly.

Baffling why it does this; petrolheads run the city I suppose.

Sam Russell

Pixel Eater wrote: »

A much easier way to speed up the LUAS would be to give it absolute priority at all traffic lights (well maybe with the exception of O'Connell Street). It's so frustrating when it stalls at minor roads, sometimes with no traffic, especially on the section between Heuston and Connolly.

Baffling why it does this; petrolheads run the city I suppose.

Even at O'Connell St, they know where the tram is and can predict when it will arrive, so why not schedule the light sequence to assist. A tram should not dwell at lights for more than a few seconds, and generally should hit the light without slowing. It is only the fear of motorists not obeying the lights that has the situation as it is. A bus has hit a tram on O'Connell St., and a pedestrian has been killed from a car in collision with a tram - as well as many other collisions.

Also, if the lights match the trams arrival and departure, the delay will only be a few seconds.

It is the motorists that need to learn that trams are big and hurt a lot when you hit them, and they have a video of the occurrence, so blame will be easy to determine.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

Even at O'Connell St, they know where the tram is and can predict when it will arrive, so why not schedule the light sequence to assist. A tram should not dwell at lights for more than a few seconds, and generally should hit the light without slowing. It is only the fear of motorists not obeying the lights that has the situation as it is. A bus has hit a tram on O'Connell St., and a pedestrian has been killed from a car in collision with a tram - as well as many other collisions.

Also, if the lights match the trams arrival and departure, the delay will only be a few seconds.

It is the motorists that need to learn that trams are big and hurt a lot when you hit them, and they have a video of the occurrence, so blame will be easy to determine.

I think that you will find that it was the tram that hit the bus rather than the other way around.

With the sheer volume of bus traffic (and soon Green Line LUAS) on O'Connell Street I think that the junction would have to remain as a sequence controlled set of lights rather than having priority to Red Line trams.

loyatemu

it has poor priority at Gardiner St as well, they really should have cut-and-covered that whole stretch.

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

I think that you will find that it was the tram that hit the bus rather than the other way around.

Could be, but if the lights were sequenced to favour the tram, it would not have happened. I think the tram signals were out of sync with the traffic lights at the time. I remember seeing the lights at Gardener St, where I was waiting, going green as the tram crossed the junction - which should not happen.

[Why do trams use different signals from buses?]

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

Could be, but if the lights were sequenced to favour the tram, it would not have happened. I think the tram signals were out of sync with the traffic lights at the time. I remember seeing the lights at Gardener St, where I was waiting, going green as the tram crossed the junction - which should not happen.

[Why do trams use different signals from buses?]

No "could be" about it, the tram crashed into the side of the bus.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/lapse-by-driver-of-luas-led-to-crash-with-bus-29102210.html

I'm not sure why you think that a far greater number of buses carrying more people should receive less traffic priority than the trams.

Jamie2k9

A much easier way to speed up the LUAS would be to give it absolute priority at all traffic lights (well maybe with the exception of O'Connell Street). It's so frustrating when it stalls at minor roads, sometimes with no traffic, especially on the section between Heuston and Connolly.

Baffling why it does this; petrolheads run the city I suppose.

O'Connell Street is the biggest problem for Luas, the time the lights take to change is way to long and needs to be reduced. I'm sure it may help with traffic congestion as well. You could easily be stopped for over 2 minutes waiting. At night time they change really quickly now I am not suggesting such a quick change during the day but really 30-40 seconds needs to be knocked off.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

O'Connell Street is the biggest problem for Luas, the time the lights take to change is way to long and needs to be reduced. I'm sure it may help with traffic congestion as well. You could easily be stopped for over 2 minutes waiting. At night time they change really quickly now I am not suggesting such a quick change during the day but really 30-40 seconds needs to be knocked off.

And as a result delay for longer all of the cross-city bus routes that operate along O'Connell Street and carry far more passengers than the LUAS?

It's not as straightforward as LUAS must get priority.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

And as a result delay for longer all of the cross-city bus routes that operate along O'Connell Street and carry far more passengers than the LUAS?

It's not as straightforward as LUAS must get priority.

I am not saying priority but the time lights spend been green is way to long and at rush hour traffic is usually backed and not moving anyway. As for numbers carried if my figures are correct two trams carry up to 700 so how many buses would be required?

Why are other "impotent" lights on cross city routes not half as long.

Cutting the time a little would lead to traffic calming in both directions.

Van.Bosch

There are now tracks down in a few spots about town yet it is still 2 years until it opens. I know they have to stop for 2016 celebrations but it still seems s long time to me. The length of time for the project always seemed very long to me but now seeing what is done I can't fathom what will take another 2 years?

LeinsterDub

Van.Bosch wrote: »

There are now tracks down in a few spots about town yet it is still 2 years until it opens. I know they have to stop for 2016 celebrations but it still seems s long time to me. The length of time for the project always seemed very long to me but now seeing what is done I can't fathom what will take another 2 years?

Cables, platforms, signage, restoration works etc

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

And as a result delay for longer all of the cross-city bus routes that operate along O'Connell Street and carry far more passengers than the LUAS?

It's not as straightforward as LUAS must get priority.

That is not necessarily true. Luas trams take the same time to cross O'C St whether they have waited two minutes or 10 seconds and so cause a constant amount of delay. If they can cross O'C St without slowing, they cause less delay - not more. All it takes is proper phasing of the lights.

Cross city buses are delayed by congestion in D'Olier St and Westmoreland St, by buses trying to access their stop blocked by other buses trying to access their designated stop, which in turn are blocked by buses trying to exit their stop.

A bit of planning there would help.

Van.Bosch

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Cables, platforms, signage, restoration works etc

Yeah I know but does 2 years souls reasonable to you? I know not all track is down and costs are higher if done quicker.

Jamie2k9

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Yeah I know but does 2 years souls reasonable to you? I know not all track is down and costs are higher if done quicker.

2 years + above works - weeks of no works in city centre, Paddy's wee, NYE, 1916 etc Easily 2-3 months with no work. Would expect another 2-3 months of driver training and testing of systems.