Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

LuckyLloyd

While we as infrastructure enthusiasts might think articles like this are nonsense, the reality is that the works have had a demoralising affect on the Ciry Centre and it is still reasonable to ask what current or future problem is really solved by a slow moving tram between Stephen's Green and Parnell St that will traverse the distance no quicker than one could walk it.

This is not me saying not to build more LUAS, or heavy rail, or the badly needed DU / Metro projects by the way. The juice needs to be worth the squeeze and the cross city part of the Green Line hangs tenuously in that regard.

quadrifoglio verde

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

While we as infrastructure enthusiasts might think articles like this are nonsense, the reality is that the works have had a demoralising affect on the Ciry Centre and it is still reasonable to ask what current or future problem is really solved by a slow moving tram between Stephen's Green and Parnell St that will traverse the distance no quicker than one could walk it.

This is not me saying not to build more LUAS, or heavy rail, or the badly needed DU / Metro projects by the way. The juice needs to be worth the squeeze and the cross city part of the Green Line hangs tenuously in that regard.

The part I can't really understand is that it will follow the same route more or less of metro north when it was built. They should, in my opinion, have put it underground to the top of O Connell st, or gone a different route altogether

monument

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

While we as infrastructure enthusiasts might think articles like this are nonsense, the reality is that the works have had a demoralising affect on the Ciry Centre and it is still reasonable to ask what current or future problem is really solved by a slow moving tram between Stephen's Green and Parnell St that will traverse the distance no quicker than one could walk it.

This is not me saying not to build more LUAS, or heavy rail, or the badly needed DU / Metro projects by the way. The juice needs to be worth the squeeze and the cross city part of the Green Line hangs tenuously in that regard.

Sounds very much like the people who say the bus is better than than the Luas red line when the trams carry far more people daily than all the buses on the quays.

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

The part I can't really understand is that it will follow the same route more or less of metro north when it was built. They should, in my opinion, have put it underground to the top of O Connell st, or gone a different route altogether

I'd support an underground route but a surface tram is serving more areas and their ending points are different.

It's normal internationally to have routes covering similar ground n core areas

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Sounds very much like the people who say the bus is better than than the Luas red line when the trams carry far more people daily than all the buses on the quays.

Can you be absolutely sure of that statistic?

You're claiming that the LUAS Red Line carries more people than the combined total of the Lucan and Blanchardstown QBCs and other bus routes (including Bus Eireann and private commuter routes?

I don't think that is the case - and it certainly isn't when you factor in the re-routed bus routes along the Quays.

LXFlyer

For the record - I'm not diminishing the importance of the Red Line in favour of buses but I'd certainly not be as confident about saying that the LUAS carries "far more" than the buses along the Quays.

They are both important.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Can you be absolutely sure of that statistic?

You're claiming that the LUAS Red Line carries more people than the combined total of the Lucan and Blanchardstown QBCs and other bus routes (including Bus Eireann and private commuter routes?

I don't think that is the case - and it certainly isn't when you factor in the re-routed bus routes along the Quays.

This is peak hour: the quays vs the red line, from the Council's report on Eden Quay and and new bus lanes.



Everything we know about bus vs tram frequency and loadings off-peak tells me the graph would show even higher tram use for the full day.

This should not be too much a surprise given how popular trams are all day and the total passenger numbers on just two Luas routes vs all of Dublin Bus -- something like 89,000 daily on two routes vs 325,000 on many QBCs and other routes.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

For the record - I'm not diminishing the importance of the Red Line in favour of buses but I'd certainly not be as confident about saying that the LUAS carries "far more" than the buses along the Quays.

They are both important.

I agree both are important and I'm not diminishing buses.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

This is peak hour: the quays vs the red line, from the Council's report on Eden Quay and and new bus lanes.



Everything we know about bus vs tram frequency and loadings off-peak tells me the graph would show even higher tram use for the full day.

This should not be too much a surprise given how popular trams are all day and the total passenger numbers on just two Luas routes vs all of Dublin Bus -- something like 89,000 daily on two routes vs 325,000 on many QBCs and other routes.

That is capacity - it is not what is being actually carried and it does not reflect what the re-routed buses onto the Quays will put there.

I think that the other poster has a point in terms of the overall impact that the LUAS cross-city extension will have - as I've posted elsewhere I remain to be convinced that the planned 3 minute frequency (on which the business case was made) will actually be practical given the bus traffic that it will interact with.

I do hope I'm wrong, but based on my analysis (doing physical vehicle counts) it's difficult to see how that can work.

LeinsterDub

LeinsterDub wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/business/small-business/we-cant-guarantee-customers-will-come-back-when-luas-works-are-finished-dublin-city-businesses-form-alliance-35603825.html



Aka how were we to know this 4 year plan would take 4 years?

"The reality is that customers will start creating a new shopping trend, a new habit. If you've to walk 300 yards up a street and then walk back on yourself, you're not going to do that," said Stephen.

Thinly veiled "Im annoyed my shop won't be next to a luas stop".

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

That is capacity - it is not what is being actually carried and it does not reflect what the re-routed buses onto the Quays will put there.

I think that the other poster has a point in terms of the overall impact that the LUAS cross-city extension will have - as I've posted elsewhere I remain to be convinced that the planned 3 minute frequency (on which the business case was made) will actually be practical given the bus traffic that it will interact with.

I do hope I'm wrong, but based on my analysis (doing physical vehicle counts) it's difficult to see how that can work.

There is very little to dispute here, trams are rammed in the mornings, outbound does quiet well to. They easily carry the same if not more than DB.

Chivito550

lxflyer wrote: »

That is capacity - it is not what is being actually carried and it does not reflect what the re-routed buses onto the Quays will put there.

I think that the other poster has a point in terms of the overall impact that the LUAS cross-city extension will have - as I've posted elsewhere I remain to be convinced that the planned 3 minute frequency (on which the business case was made) will actually be practical given the bus traffic that it will interact with.

I do hope I'm wrong, but based on my analysis (doing physical vehicle counts) it's difficult to see how that can work.

Regardless of what carries more, one thing is certain, the bus is a truly awful way to travel along the quays. I come in from Celbridge occasionally. The LUAS was not running one dry Wednesday morning for about an hour, and I jumped on the 145 at Heuston and after 20 mins I was a the Halfpenny bridge. Compare that to the 8-9 minutes in the LUAS to Jervis.

MJohnston

Nothing new here but great to see the map finally complete:

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

That is capacity - it is not what is being actually carried and it does not reflect what the re-routed buses onto the Quays will put there.

I think that the other poster has a point in terms of the overall impact that the LUAS cross-city extension will have - as I've posted elsewhere I remain to be convinced that the planned 3 minute frequency (on which the business case was made) will actually be practical given the bus traffic that it will interact with.

I do hope I'm wrong, but based on my analysis (doing physical vehicle counts) it's difficult to see how that can work.

It actual capacity -- and trams are very full at peak hours... are you saying buses aren't?

LeinsterDub

MJohnston wrote: »

Nothing new here but great to see the map finally complete:

Nearly starting to look like a transport system

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

Regardless of what carries more, one thing is certain, the bus is a truly awful way to travel along the quays. I come in from Celbridge occasionally. The LUAS was not running one dry Wednesday morning for about an hour, and I jumped on the 145 at Heuston and after 20 mins I was a the Halfpenny bridge. Compare that to the 8-9 minutes in the LUAS to Jervis.

The city centre right now is a building site through which the bus traffic has to pass, with a single lane available in both directions through College Green. It is akin to passing the bus service through the eye of a needle. This has caused massive tailbacks and journey times can vary wildly from one day to the next.

It's effectively a black hole in the city centre.

Prior to the commencement of the LUAS works the bus was actually regularly faster from Heuston to O'Connell Bridge (I can state this from personal experience).

You need to factor all of this in before making such sweeping statements like the one you made above - stating that the bus service is "awful" while there is a massive construction programme in the heart of the city is kind of stating the obvious - there are exceptional circumstances right now.

These are not normal traffic conditions.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

You need to factor all of this in before making such sweeping statements like the one you made above - stating that the bus service is "awful" while there is a massive construction programme in the heart of the city is kind of stating the obvious - there are exceptional circumstances right now.

These are not normal traffic conditions.

Wouldn't it be fairer to say they weren't normal conditions before, but are likely to be so in the future? Construction completion won't mean an end to traffic capacity downgrades with the Luas taking up some space previously used by buses.

Chivito550

MJohnston wrote: »

Nothing new here but great to see the map finally complete:

That's only going to confuse tourists. Cross City should be coloured green, not blue. Also O'Connell Upper is not an interchange.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

It actual capacity -- and trams are very full at peak hours... are you saying buses aren't?

No I'm not at all. Every bus I see during the morning peak is full too, and most have good loadings throughout the day as well.

The current capacity is kind of irrelevant.

What is needed is to see the actual numbers carried using all of the routes that currently and are proposed to use the Quays - it's meaningless looking at current numbers when a large number of additional buses are going to use the Quays on top of the existing routes.

MJohnston

Chivito550 wrote: »

That's only going to confuse tourists. Cross City should be coloured green, not blue. Also O'Connell Upper is not an interchange.

They said on their Facebook page it'll be Green when it actually opens.

I'm presuming OCU is an "interchange" in the sense that Sandyford is - some trams from the south will loop back around the O'Connell Loop, and therefore OCS Upper is a way to interchange between trams going to OCS only and trams proceeding to Broombridge.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Wouldn't it be fairer to say they weren't normal conditions before, but are likely to be so in the future? Construction completion won't mean an end to traffic capacity downgrades with the Luas taking up some space previously used by buses.

Prior to the current LUAS works, buses did pass through the city centre reasonably quickly and predictably - there wasn't the same scale of congestion on College Green, College Street, D'Olier Street, and knocking back onto the Quays and Dame Street.

The bus gates at North Frederick Street, Pearse Street and College Green all made a significant difference to bus journey times through the city centre.

As for the future, that will come out in the wash when LUAS testing starts in August to be honest.

But I personally don't see some of the proposed bus routings staying the same (particularly southbound through College Green), nor do I see the proposed 3 minute peak Green Line LUAS frequency in both directions being viable either through the city centre section - it may have to stretch out to every 5-6 minutes.

We shall have to wait and see.

Dardania

Chivito550 wrote: »

MJohnston wrote: »

Nothing new here but great to see the map finally complete:

That's only going to confuse tourists. Cross City should be coloured green, not blue. Also O'Connell Upper is not an interchange.

Agree on both counts. there is a minor possibly that they could run everything on the cross city line as it's own line with the exception of Dawson...But they should include Dawson on the green line for that (presuming a turnaround possibility?)

MJohnston

Dardania wrote: »

Agree on both counts. there is a minor possibly that they could run everything on the cross city line as it's own line with the exception of Dawson...But they should include Dawson on the green line for that (presuming a turnaround possibility?)

I responded above

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

Prior to the current LUAS works, buses did pass through the city centre reasonably quickly and predictably - there wasn't the same scale of congestion on College Green, College Street, D'Olier Street, and knocking back onto the Quays and Dame Street.

The bus gates at North Frederick Street, Pearse Street and College Green all made a significant difference to bus journey times through the city centre.

As for the future, that will come out in the wash when LUAS testing starts in August to be honest.

But I personally don't see some of the proposed bus routings staying the same (particularly southbound through College Green), nor do I see the proposed 3 minute peak Green Line LUAS frequency in both directions being viable either through the city centre section - it may have to stretch out to every 5-6 minutes.

We shall have to wait and see.

Right but I'm just pointing out that the previous traffic conditions you referred to as normal will never return.

Dardania

MJohnston wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Agree on both counts. there is a minor possibly that they could run everything on the cross city line as it's own line with the exception of Dawson...But they should include Dawson on the green line for that (presuming a turnaround possibility?)

I responded above

Great minds think alike (and the fool didn't click to the next page of the post when quoting  )

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Right but I'm just pointing out that the previous traffic conditions you referred to as normal will never return.

The conditions will be different, but predictable bus journey times should certainly return. The current lottery will cease.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

No I'm not at all. Every bus I see during the morning peak is full too, and most have good loadings throughout the day as well.

The current capacity is kind of irrelevant.

What is needed is to see the actual numbers carried using all of the routes that currently and are proposed to use the Quays - it's meaningless looking at current numbers when a large number of additional buses are going to use the Quays on top of the existing routes.

My point was about the current capacity of the red line, so it's kind of not irrelevant to that. It might be irrelevant to another line of discussion on-going in this thread, but my point was of the value of Luas Cross City regardless of any Metro or any other underground line.

LXFlyer

Of course it is valuable - but whether the LUAS cross city line actually delivers what it was supposed to in terms of frequency and whether the knock on effects to other public transport are not negative overall remains to be seen.

I think that was the point that the poster was making - not that "bus is better" as you suggested.

loyatemu

MJohnston wrote: »

Nothing new here but great to see the map finally complete:

Is this an official map - it's terrible!

for a start it suggests that trams going around the city centre loop will pass through the Dominic stop, which they won't. Also Parnell is in the City Centre.

fionnsci

I'm pretty pleased with that map, I've been wondering for months how they're going to illustrate the connection between lines. It's pretty clear there with the expanded section. I wonder if there'll be much rebranding aboard the trams themselves. Some of these maps should be placed where there is space, the list of stops on whatever line you happen to be on doesn't really tell the full story.

jamo2oo9

Hang on, is there two stops on O' Connell St? (northbound that is)