Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

loyatemu

fionnsci wrote: »

I'm pretty pleased with that map, I've been wondering for months how they're going to illustrate the connection between lines. It's pretty clear there with the expanded section. I wonder if there'll be much rebranding aboard the trams themselves. Some of these maps should be placed where there is space, the list of stops on whatever line you happen to be on doesn't really tell the full story.

much better to show close connections like this IMO, rather than using unconnected ovals as they've done above:

Sam Russell

Also, would it not be better to show Connolly Stn as very near Busarras - that looks a long way when it is just across the road - could be achieved by moving the stop names to below the Luas line, and moving Connolly down.

It is obviously Ver 0.1.

LXFlyer

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

Hang on, is there two stops on O' Connell St? (northbound that is)

You're only noticing this now?

This is hardly groundbreaking news.

The northern one (opposite the Gresham) counterbalances Parnell southbound which is east of O'Connell St.

The next stop isn't until Dominick St - that would be too far between stops.

D.L.R.

God thats almost as bad as an Irish Rail map.

MJohnston

It does at least show how south-side heavy our high quality transport network is.

AngryLips

The map doesn't really tell us anything about the zones, does it? I have a feeling the completion of Luas Cross City will see the zones reimagined to squeeze even more revenue from poor Luas passengers.

fionnsci

loyatemu wrote: »

much better to show close connections like this IMO, rather than using unconnected ovals as they've done above:

I agree but I'm more talking about that fact that the expanded section makes it very clear how to get from one line to the other, and shows it to be a pretty easy connection.

The ovals do look clunky on the main map alright.

fionnsci

People spouting off all over the place about how the lines don't connect, as though it's brand new information. I feel like I'll be explaining to people why they don't connect for the next year.

jamo2oo9

lxflyer wrote: »

You're only noticing this now?

This is hardly groundbreaking news.

The northern one (opposite the Gresham) counterbalances Parnell southbound which is east of O'Connell St.

The next stop isn't until Dominick St - that would be too far between stops.

I was completely unaware of this beforehand. I always thought there'd be a stop outside GPO and the next stop is Dominick St. Hadn't noticed an extra stop other than GPO being constructed but I'll have a look out for it tomorrow.

Avada

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

I was completely unaware of this beforehand. I always thought there'd be a stop outside GPO and the next stop is Dominick St. Hadn't noticed an extra stop other than GPO being constructed but I'll have a look out for it tomorrow.

Its directly outside the Gresham, platform is starting to take shape.

Bray Head

lxflyer wrote: »

Prior to the current LUAS works, buses did pass through the city centre reasonably quickly and predictably - there wasn't the same scale of congestion on College Green, College Street, D'Olier Street, and knocking back onto the Quays and Dame Street.

The bus gates at North Frederick Street, Pearse Street and College Green all made a significant difference to bus journey times through the city centre.

Can you think of something else that's happened since 2013 too?

Like an extra 60,000 people in employment every day in Dublin?

It's specious to blame slow buses purely on the Luas works.

Congestion in Dublin is always far lower when the economy is struggling.

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

Can you think of something else that's happened since 2013 too?

Like an extra 60,000 people in employment every day in Dublin?

It's specious to blame slow buses purely on the Luas works.

Congestion in Dublin is always far lower when the economy is struggling.

Bizarrely enough I can actually think back to the boom years - the College Green bus gate is there longer than you think. There was nothing like the current level of disruption and unpredictability to journey times through the College Green area for bus services.

The LUAS works are the principal cause of the current issues with bus reliability in the city centre whether you want to believe it or not.

Bray Head

The College Green bus gate was not in place in the boom years. It opened in mid-2009. Traffic congestion peaked 18 months or so before that. 

The four years between its opening and the Luas works starting in mid-2013 saw probably the lowest level of employment and activity in the city centre since the early 2000s.

Anyway I said it was specious to purely blame slow buses on Luas works. And you have adjusted your argument to claim that the works are only the 'principal' cause of the reduction in reliability. So we don't disagree.

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

The College Green bus gate was not in place in the boom years. It opened in mid-2009. Traffic congestion peaked 18 months or so before that.

The four years between its opening and the Luas works starting in mid-2013 saw probably the lowest level of employment and activity in the city centre since the early 2000s.

Anyway I said it was specious to purely blame slow buses on Luas works. And you have adjusted your argument to claim that the works are only the 'principal' cause of the reduction in reliability. So we don't disagree.

Please stop twisting my comments. I am not adjusting my argument at all.

I was specifically referring to bus speeds through the heart of the city centre in response to another poster, who claimed that the buses were "awful" since they took 20 minutes to get along the Quays from Heuston.

I'm making the point that before the LUAS works in the city centre, and going back to the boom years that didn't happen - the bus was actually faster than the LUAS between Heuston and O'Connell Bridge. That I know from regular personal experience.

You can try and put whatever slant you want on this, but without the LUAS works the bus service would be significantly more reliable passing through the city centre and along the North Quays.

Bray Head

Of course - but what impact do you think the increased traffic stemming from higher employment in the city centre has had?

For the record the boom in the number of cyclists in Dublin in the last ten years has probably also had a negative impact on bus speeds too.

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

Of course - but what impact do you think the increased traffic stemming from higher employment in the city centre has had?

For the record the boom in the number of cyclists in Dublin in the last ten years has probably also had a negative impact on bus speeds too.

Genuinely on that specific corridor it would be limited. There is a continuous bus lane the length of the North Quays.

The problem is that traffic from D'Olier St has to funnel into a single lane either on Townsend Street or College Street where prior to the LUAS works there were two lanes in both cases. That causes a backlog of bus and taxi traffic and this then works its way backwards.

dixiefly

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

While we as infrastructure enthusiasts might think articles like this are nonsense, the reality is that the works have had a demoralising affect on the Ciry Centre and it is still reasonable to ask what current or future problem is really solved by a slow moving tram between Stephen's Green and Parnell St that will traverse the distance no quicker than one could walk it.

This is not me saying not to build more LUAS, or heavy rail, or the badly needed DU / Metro projects by the way. The juice needs to be worth the squeeze and the cross city part of the Green Line hangs tenuously in that regard.

I do realise that it is slow relative to undergrounds and some bus routes but it is quicker than walking the route.

spacetweek

dixiefly wrote: »

I do realise that it is slow relative to undergrounds and some bus routes but it is quicker than walking the route.

Hah. That is a 20 minute walk, longer at busy periods.
With an official 24-minute journey time from Stephen's Green to Broombridge, I'd be surprised if the Luas took longer than 10 minutes to cover SG-Dominick.

Bray Head

The SSG to Parnell section will be touch-and-go compared to a fast walk.

This is a pity but inevitable given the interaction with pedestrians and traffic.

There will still be huge benefits to the Luas network from having cross-city in place.

Dardania

Bray Head wrote: »

The SSG to Parnell section will be touch-and-go compared to a fast walk.

This is a pity but inevitable given the interaction with pedestrians and traffic.

There will still be huge benefits to the Luas network from having cross-city in place.

Not to mention being out of the rain!

AngryLips

I wonder how much the Luas cross city will increase multi-modal and luas-luas transfers

Bray Head

AngryLips wrote: »

I wonder how much the Luas cross city will increase multi-modal and luas-luas transfers

I would say a lot will transfer from rail to Luas at Broombridge.

Pearse to Broombridge is currently 16 minutes already.

For a lot of workers in the south inner city it will make more sense to take the Luas to Broombridge.

I suspect Luas cross-city will be at capacity from day one.

Zebra3

AngryLips wrote: »

I wonder how much the Luas cross city will increase multi-modal and luas-luas transfers

Off peak I'd imagine Luas to IR at Broombridge will be very low given how poor IR's service is.

LXFlyer

Bear in mind too that changing from rail to LUAS at Broombridge will mean paying twice rather using a single mode and walking. That may not appeal to many people.

Whatever about inbound connections, transferring outbound (especially off-peak) is likely to be low given the lower service levels on the railway - it will difficult to predict connections given LUAS is frequency based rather than on a timetable, and only half the trams are planned to go to Broombridge - the other half turning around in the city centre.

loyatemu

lxflyer wrote: »

Bear in mind too that changing from rail to LUAS at Broombridge will mean paying twice rather using a single mode and walking. That may not appeal to many people.

Whatever about inbound connections, transferring outbound (especially off-peak) is likely to be low given the lower service levels on the railway - it will difficult to predict connections given LUAS is frequency based rather than on a timetable, and only half the teams are planned to go to Broombridge - the other half turning around in the city centre.

a couple of sets running Maynooth - Docklands off peak would greatly improve this without interfering with operations through the loop line. There's not much demand to go to Docklands off peak currently but it would allow much better connections at Broombridge.

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

a couple of sets running Maynooth - Docklands off peak would greatly improve this without interfering with operations through the loop line. There's not much demand to go to Docklands off peak currently but it would allow much better connections at Broombridge.

Well that will be down to the NTA at the next timetable review - we will have to wait and see what they decide to fund.

BonnieSituation

lxflyer wrote: »

Bear in mind too that changing from rail to LUAS at Broombridge will mean paying twice rather using a single mode and walking. That may not appeal to many people.

Whatever about inbound connections, transferring outbound (especially off-peak) is likely to be low given the lower service levels on the railway - it will difficult to predict connections given LUAS is frequency based rather than on a timetable, and only half the trams are planned to go to Broombridge - the other half turning around in the city centre.

Capping will restrict the notions of "paying twice".

Plus we'll see ticketing options improve as we move forward. Can't see that being a big issue for regular rail and Luas users who already will have leap cards.

LXFlyer

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Capping will restrict the notions of "paying twice".

Plus we'll see ticketing options improve as we move forward. Can't see that being a big issue for regular rail and Luas users who already will have leap cards.

Most regular rail commuters will have a single mode prepaid commuter ticket.

Using LUAS will mean having to pay extra for a prepaid rail/LUAS combined ticket. Whether people will want to do that in large numbers remains to be seen.

Irregular travellers using pay-as-you-go will in all likelihood not be coming close to reaching caps and therefore would be paying extra if they switch.

It's only people travelling to locations not within easy walking distance of the three city centre rail stations that the switch to LUAS may appeal to.

I'm not aware of any plans in the near future to add additional ticketing options so I'm not sure to what you are referring.

BonnieSituation

lxflyer wrote: »

Most regular rail commuters will have a single mode prepaid commuter ticket.

And those rail users who see the benefit of this infrastructural improvement could move to a multi-mode ticket in the future.

If not it won't affect them. Those that have leap cards for their commute would be able to use the capping system to benefit from a multi-modal switch anyway.

Using LUAS will mean having to pay extra for a prepaid rail/LUAS combined ticket. Whether people will want to do that in large numbers remains to be seen.

It does remain to be seen. But it is an option.

Some multi-modal users [bus-train for example] may change the ticket to suit this new option.

I used to have a bus/rail annual ticket as there was no tram service in existence that worked for me. However this could have been an option for consideration for me if I still lived in Cabra.

Irregular travellers using pay-as-you-go will in all likelihood not be coming close to reaching caps and therefore would be paying extra if they switch.

And? Who's this person?

The capping system serves regular travelers and exists to encourage public transport use.

How this conversation started was regarding how a person could get a tram to Broombridge to catch a train as an option. The assumption is that they are getting that train anyway, with the Luas now an extra option for this rhetorical commute.

So if they are getting a train anyway, assuming, they normally cap at the regular 9.50 per day/37.00 per week then all of a sudden this extra mode which is proving convenient and improving their commute jumps to the staggering 10.00 per day/40.00 per week. Hardly earth shattering. And that's assuming they cap out on the longest possible journeys in Dublin Zone.

It's only people travelling to locations not within easy walking distance of the three city centre rail stations that the switch to LUAS may appeal to.

Correct. That's how this started.

I'm not aware of any plans in the near future to add additional ticketing options so I'm not sure to what you are referring.

You may not be aware. But it isn't beyond the realms of possibilities that ticketing options might change in the future is it? In fact I would wager there's a 100% chance that there will be changes and additions in the future. Which is what I was getting at.

Viscount Aggro

The Luas is too expensive, and it is too slow on city streets.
I know a lot of people on the green line who are dreading the BXD link up.