Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

MJohnston

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

The Luas is too expensive, and it is too slow on city streets.
I know a lot of people on the green line who are dreading the BXD link up.

Why?

BonnieSituation

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

The Luas is too expensive, and it is too slow on city streets.
I know a lot of people on the green line who are dreading the BXD link up.

The poor lambs.

Imagine if we connected the Dart to our western suburbs as well. what would they do then?

---

The Luas is a mess of a system, however, we have it now as is and I'll take it over nothing.

LXFlyer

BonnieSituation wrote: »

And those rail users who see the benefit of this infrastructural improvement could move to a multi-mode ticket in the future.

If not it won't affect them. Those that have leap cards for their commute would be able to use the capping system to benefit from a multi-modal switch anyway.

It does remain to be seen. But it is an option.

Some multi-modal users [bus-train for example] may change the ticket to suit this new option.

I used to have a bus/rail annual ticket as there was no tram service in existence that worked for me. However this could have been an option for consideration for me if I still lived in Cabra.

And? Who's this person?

The capping system serves regular travelers and exists to encourage public transport use.

How this conversation started was regarding how a person could get a tram to Broombridge to catch a train as an option. The assumption is that they are getting that train anyway, with the Luas now an extra option for this rhetorical commute.

So if they are getting a train anyway, assuming, they normally cap at the regular 9.50 per day/37.00 per week then all of a sudden this extra mode which is proving convenient and improving their commute jumps to the staggering 10.00 per day/40.00 per week. Hardly earth shattering. And that's assuming they cap out on the longest possible journeys in Dublin Zone.

Correct. That's how this started.

You may not be aware. But it isn't beyond the realms of possibilities that ticketing options might change in the future is it? In fact I would wager there's a 100% chance that there will be changes and additions in the future. Which is what I was getting at.

I don't actually need you to tell me what point I was making as you seem to repeatedly try to tell me.

But for the record, the point I was making above was, in response to a post stating that there would be a large number transferring between rail and LUAS at Broombridge and that LUAS BXD will be at capacity from the start, was that I disagreed with that notion.

I don't believe that the numbers transferring at Broombridge will be as great as some people think, unless they're going somewhere around DIT or beyond St Stephen's Green, due to the reasons I gave - paying additional fares, the lack of rail connections off-peak, and the relatively poor planned frequency of LUAS to/from Broombridge (every second tram). I gave three reasons not just one.

Regarding the fares, many regular commuters will have cheaper prepaid rail only monthly/annual tickets which work out cheaper than using LEAP pay-as-you-go, and for many using LEAP pay-as-you-go their journeys won't even come close to the capping inn the first place- anyone commuting from Clonsilla to the city five days per week for example would only pay €25 per week using the epurse for rail only. Assuming LUAS will require two ticketing zones from Broombridge to the city centre, that would be an additional €8.50 per week assuming LEAP90 discount applies. That's not insignificant.

I actually do expect that the majority of rail passengers travelling to/from the city centre will continue to use the train rather than transferring to/from LUAS. Obviously it will appeal to some people, but I don't think that the numbers transferring will be as great as some think. That's my personal opinion and I'm sticking to it - you may believe otherwise.

Talking about hypothetical future changes to the ticketing on Irish Rail and LUAS when there has been absolutely zero talk of it in any fare determination to date is daft frankly, and completely without foundation and irrelevant. The NTA have completed their review of IE short hop ticketing in the last fare determination.

quadrifoglio verde

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

The Luas is too expensive, and it is too slow on city streets.
I know a lot of people on the green line who are dreading the BXD link up.

It won't be any slower than it currently is from ssg

LXFlyer

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

The Luas is too expensive, and it is too slow on city streets.
I know a lot of people on the green line?who are dreading the BXD link up.

I'd also like to know what Green line users are dreading the extension, as they will now be able to remain on the tram to the Northside of the river at no extra charge (I would expect the city centre fare zone to extend to Grangegorman).

Frankly the people who are likely to be most upset are the bus users who will have to endure longer journeys as a result of the route changes.

MICKEYG

Viscount Aggro wrote: »

The Luas is too expensive, and it is too slow on city streets.
I know a lot of people on the green line who are dreading the BXD link up.

How will BXD make the journey times for existing Green line users slower?

seekers

Is there any draft timetable as to what services will look like once the line is finished?

Geuze

AFAIk, trams northbound will alternate between continuing to Broombridge, and turning onto Parnell, and heading back southwards along Marlborough.

MJohnston

I had figured the trams that currently only go as far as Sandyford will be the ones that go to Broombridge, and the Bridges Glen trams will use the OCS/Parnell turnback loop. Similar to Saggart to Connolly and Tallaght to The Point.

Peregrine

MJohnston wrote: »

I had figured the trams that currently only go as far as Sandyford will be the ones that go to Broombridge, and the Bridges Glen trams will use the OCS/Parnell turnback loop. Similar to Saggart to Connolly and Tallaght to The Point.

Yes. Sandyford to Broombridge and Brides Glen to O'Connell Street Upper.

seekers

Interesting. Had forgotten about the loop at Parnell st. Will there be regular services on the loop in Abbey street between the red and green line?

MJohnston

seekers wrote: »

Interesting. Had forgotten about the loop at Parnell st. Will there be regular services on the loop in Abbey street between the red and green line?

What do you mean?

LXFlyer

seekers wrote: »

Interesting. Had forgotten about the loop at Parnell st. Will there be regular services on the loop in Abbey street between the red and green line?

The connection between the Red & Green Lines is not for operational use - only for transferring trams between depots. There is insufficient space for an operational connection to be put in place.


The two lines will operate independently of one another.

Geuze

What will be the frequency on the core section of the line, i.e. Sandyford to OCS?

Will parallel bus routes be re-organised?

LXFlyer

Geuze wrote: »

What will be the frequency on the core section of the line, i.e. Sandyford to OCS?

Will parallel bus routes be re-organised?

It is planned for the current Green line frequency to continue - however I remain to be convinced as to how practical between St Stephen's Green and O'Connell Street that will be. There may have to be more use of the turnback siding at St Stephen's Green North than originally intended (in my personal opinion).

Current frequencies are here:
https://www.luas.ie/973

What parallel bus routes are you thinking of?

No bus routes follow the exact line taken by LUAS BXD - they all serve different areas en route and most serve areas further out that will still need a bus service.

While there might be some frequency adjustments and some route changes there is no info on this at all right now, other than the NTA are planning for a review of the city bus network later this year, and bus routes will be re-routed through the city centre due to the planned College Green plaza.

Geuze

So every 3-6 mins at peak times, Mon-Fri, okay. That's 10-20 trams per hour.

Although I note that it's actually only during 8-9am that there are trams every 3-4 mins.

Otherwise, from 7am to 10pm it's a tram every 5-7 mins. So max of 12 trams ph outside of 8-9am.

Will that be enough?

LXFlyer

Geuze wrote: »

So every 3-6 mins at peak times, Mon-Fri, okay. That's 10-20 trams per hour.

Although I note that it's actually only during 8-9am that there are trams every 3-4 mins.

Otherwise, from 7am to 10pm it's a tram every 5-7 mins. So max of 12 trams ph outside of 8-9am.

Will that be enough?

Well it is more than sufficient for the Green Line as it is.

Or do you expect all of the Green Line passengers to stay on board after St Stephen's Green?

Realistically there are still going to be a lot getting off at St Stephen's Green.

Bray Head

lxflyer wrote: »

It is planned for the current Green line frequency to continue - however I remain to be convinced as to how practical between St Stephen's Green and O'Connell Street that will be. There may have to be more use of the turnback siding at St Stephen's Green North than originally intended (in my personal opinion).

Current frequencies are here:
https://www.luas.ie/973

I suspect this may be the case.
Would this mean that there would be trams terminating at Bride's Glen, Sandyford, SSG, O'Connell St, and Broombridge?

Would this give six combinations of trips? It could be confusing for the passenger.

Zebra3

Bray Head wrote: »

I suspect this may be the case.
Would this mean that there would be trams terminating at Bride's Glen, Sandyford, SSG, O'Connell St, and Broombridge?

Would this give six combinations of trips? It could be confusing for the passenger.

I assume the trams will continue to have the name of the final stop written on the front of them.

jamo2oo9

Bray Head wrote: »

I suspect this may be the case.
Would this mean that there would be trams terminating at Bride's Glen, Sandyford, SSG, O'Connell St, and Broombridge?

Would this give six combinations of trips? It could be confusing for the passenger.

I doubt trams will terminate services at SSG unless it has already been confirmed?

L1011

They can, as a turnback is installed. That does not mean they will.

Jamie2k9

It is planned for the current Green line frequency to continue - however I remain to be convinced as to how practical between St Stephen's Green and O'Connell Street that will be. There may have to be more use of the turnback siding at St Stephen's Green North than originally intended (in my personal opinion).

What's you rational for feeling they won't be able to run a tram lets say every 4 minutes from SSG through the city? I really don't see it been a major problem if it's based on traffic volumes (DCC will just squeeze out cars and re route buses, even if not popular)

Terminating at SSG using the new or current set up has potential to cause even more disruption to services through the city.

Going by typical Luas scheduling you will likely see two trams be almost on top of one another followed by a sizable gap. With proper traffic light changes (not like the mess on O'Connell Street) operators should run pretty smooth.

seekers

Is there a siding at st Stephens green?

Jamie2k9

seekers wrote: »

Is there a siding at st Stephens green?

As part of nrw line there will be.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

What's you rational for feeling they won't be able to run a tram lets say every 4 minutes from SSG through the city? I really don't see it been a major problem if it's based on traffic volumes (DCC will just squeeze out cars and re route buses, even if not popular)

Terminating at SSG using the new or current set up has potential to cause even more disruption to services through the city.

Going by typical Luas scheduling you will likely see two trams be almost on top of one another followed by a sizable gap. With proper traffic light changes (not like the mess on O'Connell Street) operators should run pretty smooth.

Unlike the red line, the issues with the Green Line extension are the extended traffic light sequences that this line will require, and the far greater interaction with other public transport operators along the route.

The first issue is the longer trams, and the requirement for traffic light sequences to be established that allow for northbound trams to have a clear non-stop run from Westmoreland Street stop to the O'Connell (GPO) stop and southbound trams to have a clear non-stop run from Marlborough stop to the southern end of Hawkins Street. This is necessary as otherwise the trams will overhang junctions.

That will require a far more frequent and indeed longer red light for bus traffic on the North and South Quays as the tram will have to have priority over general traffic.

Thus you have the following factors:

* Longer traffic light sequences due to trams requiring a clear run as above;
* A proposed 3 minute peak LUAS Green Line frequency;
* A new traffic light phase to allow buses on several high frequency key routes turn right off O'Connell Bridge southbound onto Aston Quay (9, 13, 16, 40, 122, and 123);
* The fact that there will be at least 175 buses during the hour from 08:00 to 09:00 coming along Bachelors Walk (source - physical counts by myself and others).

All of that suggests to me that the proposed LUAS frequency through the core city centre portion of the extended Green Line may have to be reduced from the current levels that are proposed, as otherwise I suspect it will cause chaos to the bus services, which it should be noted carry (and will continue to do so) more passengers than both LUAS lines. That would imply to me that there will still have to be some short workings from the south to St Stephen's Green which will turn back there.

Now we will have to wait until the testing starts in earnest in August to see what exactly happens, but I genuinely fear that the 3 minute frequency may be a bridge too far even with the removal of the majority of cars from Bachelors Walk due to the huge number of buses using that route. It may need to go down at the very least to a 4-minute frequency which would be 15 trams in either direction rather than 20, to avoid bringing the bus service to a standstill. That would require some northbound trams turning back at St Stephen's Green which I cannot see having anything like the disruptive impact that you suggest - it doesn't clash with any traffic.

Detailed planning for the re-routing of bus routes, traffic, impact of the traffic light sequences should have formed part of the original ABP planning hearings, but they didn't - the first indications of what might be required appeared last year.

Now, four months before testing, we still don't know where exactly all of the buses are going to go, as the EIS for the College Green Plaza and re-routing of buses along Parliament Street is only going to be published next month ahead of ABP hearings later in the summer. If ABP refuses permission for Parliament Street to be used, then there will be serious problems for the cross-city bus network.

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

I suspect this may be the case.
Would this mean that there would be trams terminating at Bride's Glen, Sandyford, SSG, O'Connell St, and Broombridge?

Would this give six combinations of trips? It could be confusing for the passenger.

People cope perfectly well on the Red Line as it is with trams heading outbound to Saggart, Tallaght and Red Cow (there are short workings during the shoulders of the morning and evening peaks).

You could have two southbound destinations on the revised Green Line - Sandyford and Brides Glen as at present, and potentially St Stephen's Green, O'Connell Upper, and Broombridge northbound.

Short workings are common across transit systems and people do get used to them - they are often necessary to focus the peak capacity where it is needed.

jamo2oo9 wrote: »

I doubt trams will terminate services at SSG unless it has already been confirmed?

There may have to be some trams terminating there for the reasons that I outlined in my post above.

MJohnston

Anybody know what the current signal phase timings are for the Bachelor's Walk/OCS junction?

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

Unlike the red line, the issues with the Green Line extension are the extended traffic light sequences that this line will require, and the far greater interaction with other public transport operators along the route.

The first issue is the longer trams, and the requirement for traffic light sequences to be established that allow for northbound trams to have a clear non-stop run from Westmoreland Street stop to the O'Connell (GPO) stop and southbound trams to have a clear non-stop run from Marlborough stop to the southern end of Hawkins Street. This is necessary as otherwise the trams will overhang junctions. Just a fact of life with trams and it holds up everything.

That will require a far more frequent and indeed longer red light for bus traffic on the North and South Quays as the tram will have to have priority over general traffic.

Thus you have the following factors:

* Longer traffic light sequences due to trams requiring a clear run as above;
* A proposed 3 minute peak LUAS Green Line frequency;
* A new traffic light phase to allow buses on several high frequency key routes turn right off O'Connell Bridge southbound onto Aston Quay (9, 13, 16, 40, 122, and 123);
* The fact that there will be at least 175 buses during the hour from 08:00 to 09:00 coming along Bachelors Walk (source - physical counts by myself and others).

All of that suggests to me that the proposed LUAS frequency through the core city centre portion of the extended Green Line may have to be reduced from the current levels that are proposed, as otherwise I suspect it will cause chaos to the bus services, which it should be noted carry (and will continue to do so) more passengers than both LUAS lines. That would imply to me that there will still have to be some short workings from the south to St Stephen's Green which will turn back there.

Now we will have to wait until the testing starts in earnest in August to see what exactly happens, but I genuinely fear that the 3 minute frequency may be a bridge too far even with the removal of the majority of cars from Bachelors Walk due to the huge number of buses using that route. It may need to go down at the very least to a 4-minute frequency which would be 15 trams in either direction rather than 20, to avoid bringing the bus service to a standstill. That would require some northbound trams turning back at St Stephen's Green which I cannot see having anything like the disruptive impact that you suggest - it doesn't clash with any traffic.

Detailed planning for the re-routing of bus routes, traffic, impact of the traffic light sequences should have formed part of the original ABP planning hearings, but they didn't - the first indications of what might be required appeared last year.

Now, four months before testing, we still don't know where exactly all of the buses are going to go, as the EIS for the College Green Plaza and re-routing of buses along Parliament Street is only going to be published next month ahead of ABP hearings later in the summer. If ABP refuses permission for Parliament Street to be used, then there will be serious problems for the cross-city bus network.

Some good points but:
Take the Red Line between VHI Lower Abbey St and first curve after Gardner Street. The majority of trams get a clear run through the double signal however at times they only get one cleared and end up having to stop on the road which at times could be 2-3 minutes before they are cleared to run.

(see)
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3492804,-6.2546155,3a,75y,68.89h,66.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sV3EJv7C_Y8Mi04HMFHDxow!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

They have 10 long trams, at most only every second if not third will likely be a longer one if event that, guess it depends on where they start from BG or Sandyford.

Like the red line from time to time they will get caught blocking the quays however overall they should manage a clear run if they set it up correctly.

The CG plaza is a different kettle of fish.

LXFlyer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Some good points but:
Take the Red Line between VHI Lower Abbey St and first curve after Gardner Street. The majority of trams get a clear run through the double signal however at times they only get one cleared and end up having to stop on the road which at times could be 2-3 minutes before they are cleared to run.

(see)
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3492804,-6.2546155,3a,75y,68.89h,66.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sV3EJv7C_Y8Mi04HMFHDxow!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

They have 10 long trams, at most only every second if not third will likely be a longer one if event that, guess it depends on where they start from BG or Sandyford.

Like the red line from time to time they will get caught blocking the quays however overall they should manage a clear run if they set it up correctly.

The CG plaza is a different kettle of fish.

While there are new trams being ordered at the extended length, my understanding is that all of the existing Green Line trams are also to be lengthened to the same length as the new trams - hence the absolute necessity for them to be able to get the clear runs from Westmoreland to O'Connell (GPO) stops northbound, and Marlborough stop to the top of Hawkins St southbound.

Hence this could be a real issue!

LXFlyer

The issue that I have is not the fact that junctions might be blocked (of course that's possible) - it's the frequency that the lights on the Quays at O'Connell Bridge will turn red, and the necessarily shorter length of time that they will be green due to a potential frequency of 20 trams an hour.

With all of the additional buses that will be diverted via the Quays I do believe that this will be an issue, as well as along the shared space on Dawson St, Nassau St and Grafton St. The interaction with so many bus routes at one specific location is the issue - no single location on the Red Line comes close.