Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

Well aware that most bus routes can't have high frequency (though every 30 minutes is pretty rubbish by any standard). I'm just stating that Dublin Bus is not good for interchanges, which was in response to your original point about needing to have O'C Street as a main interchange.

The fact you have to even keep track of an app while you are travelling says it all. In any proper functioning city I've been I'd never need to do that as I'd hop off one and only be waiting a few minutes for the next.

Buses carry the most people in Dublin, you are correct. But we need to gradually move away from it, bit by bit. They are inefficient (idiots standing at the door with seats free upstairs so driver not stopping at stops), slow, infrequent, and far worse for the environment. Any move that favours a tram over a bus I'm in favour of. Short term pain for long term gain. Do we really want this city's PT still dominated by buses in 30 years?

No we don't - but for the short to medium term we have to make do with what we have - LUAS BXD is an extra element in the public transport network, and a welcome one, but until we get proper underground rail based solutions (not anytime soon), in the meantime, the fact remains that buses will still be the backbone of Dublin's PT system.

And I don't agree that using apps and journey planners is ridiculous - frankly anything that makes the journey easier is to be welcomed. Not everywhere in Dublin justifies a "turn up and go" service which is what I think you're expecting.

You do seem to be rather unlucky in your trips to be honest in terms of connections, and journey times. That's why I suggested using the apps as they are very useful when on the move. It might reduce stress levels!!

The LUAS Green Line extension will I expect see more people using the line from the southern end in particular as it will finally penetrate the core city centre area, rather than terminating on the periphery at St Stephen's Green - some of those passengers may connect with buses at Dundrum - again using the apps lets you know whether that's worthwhile.

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

Definitely Luas is more significant than bus for the future of public transport in Dublin. I'm not disagreeing that DB is the most important form of transport for the city but how the city will grow public transport use is going to be with Luas and not with more buses, so in that respect Luas is more significant and should be prioritised. That said, my point is that bus is far more flexible than tram from an operational point of view so I don't really understand why re-configuring bus routes around the city should be considered sacrosanct. Planners should be taking advantage of that flexibility, not ignoring it. Also, I don't agree that all bus routes need to converge on O'Connell Street to make the bus network work effectively. Most bus routes are cross-city since Network Direct, that means that so long as most of the routes intersect at some point then it's pretty inconsequential where in the city they intersect. Dublin is small enough that you can reach almost anywhere with one interchange, so you don't need a really large convergence of bus routes on O'Connell Street once those routes are still intersecting.

I'm not sure where you see all of this growth from LUAS coming from apart from BXD which may be mainly modal switch? There are no more lines planned - any more growth in PT in the short to medium term is going to be from increasing bus frequencies.

The problem is that most of the alternative routes that you're suggesting (Capel Street for example) simply aren't viable for even more routes due to the level of existing car traffic and lack of priority. With the impending traffic changes, those routes are going to be even more congested, and have little or no room for bus priority. Parliament Street will be pretty much full with the diverted buses from College Green. There really are not that many viable alternative routes.

Many corridors only have one or two cross-city routes (and some have none) - people are not going to necessarily intersect with other routes anywhere else, other than around the general O'Connell Bridge area, especially considering the diversions away from College Green that are planned.

That's why getting the O'Connell Bridge interaction is critical, and it will be a balancing act. There will have to be compromises and I don't particularly think that a 4 minute frequency on Green Line LUAS (15 trams an hour) at peak times through the city centre is unreasonable. Current service levels arriving/departing at St Stephen's Green between 08:00 and 09:00 is 16 trams in the hour - perhaps the 20 was more of a rounded figure rather than what was planned.

Bray Head

So can anyone tell me what share of DB passengers use OCS for a change to another bus?

Or is OCS just a big chute for sending buses up and down?

LXFlyer

Bray Head wrote: »

So can anyone tell me what share of DB passengers use OCS for a change to another bus?

Or is OCS just a big chute for sending buses up and down?

No one here is going to have that precise information, it's not published - but unless they have a direct cross-city route to their destination, anyone going cross-city is likely to have to change in the city centre (most likely around O'Connell Bridge), and purely anecdotally from observations in the morning/evening peak quite a few do.

It's not buses going along O'Connell Street that is relevant - it is the area around O'Connell Bridge. Buses stop on the streets around it allowing people to change routes within a very short walk. OCS bisects the north city centre and as such offers better penetration than using the likes of Gardiner Street or Capel Street, and hasn't got the traffic issues of the latter.

The main factor I'm highlighting is the approximately 175 buses & coaches operated by multiple operators along Bachelors Walk that will have to interact with the LUAS line at O'Connell Bridge. Dublin Bus is a portion of that. Interacting with 20 trams an hour (with the constraints mentioned many posts back) along with pedestrians and the limited remaining general traffic is going to be a significant challenge - hence my observation that 15 trams an hour might work better (and given the current service level of 16 trams an hour that might be what is planned all along).

AngryLips

Obviously any attempts to move bus routes to alternative cross-city paths will require removing on-street parking along those routes and also restricting private motor vehicles. Luas is able to command a higher passenger numbers compared to the bus alternatives, with Luas stop catchment areas being double what you get with bus stops. It stands to reason that Luas should get priority since it is capable of generating usage from people who would otherwise ignore the bus as an alternative or who would consider a comparable walk to the local bus stop to be too far. People using Dublin Bus for their commute, like myself, are not going to stop using it just because a few routes in the city centre need to be re-configured. That's something that's not going to take away the network effect of the city's public transport for two reasons: 1. interchanges will be offered elsewhere in the city centre bus network and 2. the existing interchange on OCS will be replaced with the opportunity to interchange to the Luas network. So even thought there are no future Luas lines in the running for construction at the moment, let's not ignore the fact that Luas is superior at attracting usage compared to bus alternatives.

Geuze

Chivito550 wrote: »

Maybe if they stopped charging for the second bus (albeit discounted by 1 Euro) then people might change their mindset. I've never seen anything like it anywhere else.

Yes. It should be:

1 journey = 1 ticket = 1 fare - by multiple modes

Geuze

20 trams per hour along the Green line - is that actually confirmed?

The current timetable says every 3-4 mins only during 8-9am.

That suggests 15-20 trams per hour.

LXFlyer

Geuze wrote: »

Yes. It should be:

1 journey = 1 ticket = 1 fare - by multiple modes

All well and good - but who funds the shortfall in farebox revenues?

Adequate funding, is the main issue facing our public transport services.

There are lots of things that should be done but can't due to the shortfall in funding.

LXFlyer

Geuze wrote: »

20 trams per hour along the Green line - is that actually confirmed?

The current timetable says every 3-4 mins only during 8-9am.

That suggests 15-20 trams per hour.

I've already stated what the number of trams at St Stephen's Green are currently between 08:00 & 09:00 - 16.

The 3 minute frequency (20 trams an hour) is what has been quoted by Brendan O'Brien (Head of traffic) at the DCC Transport Committee meetings and in numerous articles on the extension.

Keyzer

Probably covered before but do you guys know which line is north bound and which is south? I assume trams going up O'Connell st will be northbound?

BonnieSituation

Keyzer wrote: »

Probably covered before but do you guys know which line is north bound and which is south? I assume trams going up O'Connell st will be northbound?

Yup.

OCS is northbound.

Marlborough St is southbound.

http://www.luascrosscity.ie/route-map-and-alignment-drawings-2/

Sierra Oscar

It took 45 minutes to travel from Arran Quay to College Green at 9am this morning. Dublin Bus services are going to be a serious mess once the capacity at College Green is down significantly on a permanent basis.

I suspect we will have a deluge of stories in the papers next January with Dublin Bus passengers angry over their commuting times. Listening to people on the buses day in and day out it's pretty clear that a consensus has taken hold that journey times will be back to normal once the Luas Cross City is completed. People are in for a bit of a shock.

Arbie

I can't find anything official re: zone pricing yet, so I presume they haven't published it. Are there any reliable estimates of which zone Broombridge will be in?

Also any idea of Broombridge to Kilmacud travel time? Just trying to estimate. EDIT: I have calculated 38 minutes but wondering if this is a good estimate.

LXFlyer

Arbie wrote: »

I can't find anything official re: zone pricing yet, so I presume they haven't published it. Are there any reliable estimates of which zone Broombridge will be in?

Also any idea of Broombridge to Kilmacud travel time? Just trying to estimate. EDIT: I have calculated 38 minutes but wondering if this is a good estimate.

At a guess I would say that the city centre zone would extend to Grangegorman and that a second zone would then extend to Broombridge.


Timing probably between 40 and 45 mins to get to Kilmacud from Broombridge.

LXFlyer

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It took 45 minutes to travel from Arran Quay to College Green at 9am this morning. Dublin Bus services are going to be a serious mess once the capacity at College Green is down significantly on a permanent basis.

I suspect we will have a deluge of stories in the papers next January with Dublin Bus passengers angry over their commuting times. Listening to people on the buses day in and day out it's pretty clear that a consensus has taken hold that journey times will be back to normal once the Luas Cross City is completed. People are in for a bit of a shock.

Well I don't think it will be on the scale that it is now - bear in mind that there will be a double bus lane from Capel Street bridge onwards which will allow buses to keep moving while other buses are at a stop, and that most of the private car traffic will divert earlier.

However, I do think that some of the bus routes that currently operate southbound via D'Olier Street, College Green, Grafton Street and Nassau Street from Bachelors Walk may have to go via Townsend Street and Westland Row - I don't think that there will be enough space for them all with trams and taxis along the current alignment.

But again - this is conjecture on my part - we will have to wait and see when testing begins.

Changes will happen a lot sooner than next January - they will have to be in place when full testing begins in the Autumn.

Chivito550

What's the craic with how Stephens green will look post completion of the LUAS? Will the road connecting Dawson St to the Stephens Green car park (which goes around the green) be still there or gone? The artistic impression on the. Cross City site indicates that road won't exist and it will be a big plaza.

LuckyLloyd

Great posting from Ixflyer

Bray Head wrote: »

What share of DB users use two or more buses in succession? I'd be keen to see evidence either way.

I have tried it the odd time in the past but it's been so unreliable as to make it pointless, but that's just my experience.

Speaking from experience, I see a decent proportion of users on my route every morning (79/A) to Parkwest making their way to or from other stops in the morning and evening. I do it myself.

Bus users will make themselves heard in the coming consultations. A crawling LUAS up O'Connell St. is only one part of a larger public transport puzzle.

MJohnston

Chivito550 wrote: »

What's the craic with how Stephens green will look post completion of the LUAS? Will the road connecting Dawson St to the Stephens Green car park (which goes around the green) be still there or gone? The artistic impression on the. Cross City site indicates that road won't exist and it will be a big plaza.

It's still there at the minute with the majority of work done, and I'd imagine it'll always remain because there's a multi-storey car park at the end of it. There used to be a separate lane in the opposite direction that is now gone iirc.

BonnieSituation

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It took 45 minutes to travel from Arran Quay to College Green at 9am this morning. Dublin Bus services are going to be a serious mess once the capacity at College Green is down significantly on a permanent basis.

I suspect we will have a deluge of stories in the papers next January with Dublin Bus passengers angry over their commuting times. Listening to people on the buses day in and day out it's pretty clear that a consensus has taken hold that journey times will be back to normal once the Luas Cross City is completed. People are in for a bit of a shock.

I'm still shocked that the deluge hasn't happened yet. Even considering the LCC works the North Quays has been beyond a joke for so long.

I work on Fitz Sq and I get off at the Four Courts most mornings because going around would take a good 40min on a good day to Merrion Row.

This morning it was particularly bad. It took 10+min to go from Arran Quay to Inns Quay. If I wasn't snoozing I would have seen how bad the traffic evidently was from Heuston and gotten off at Arran Quay and walked from there.

spacetweek

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It took 45 minutes to travel from Arran Quay to College Green at 9am this morning

Luas to Abbey St or walk it.

BonnieSituation

That's not a solution. To get off a bus to walk to a tram and then get off at Abbey St is an insane solution. It plain shouldn't take that long to make that journey in any circumstances bar a particularly bad day for weather or traffic or accidents.

But this journey length is the norm for he last few years and exacerbated​ by the LCC works.

As someone who does it every morning or at least attempts it... I end up getting off at Four Courts/Inns Quay and walk to George's St and grab any bus that comes to shave a bit of time off my journey.

It can, most of the time, take longer for a bus to go from Inns Quay to Ormond Quay than it takes to walk it. Madness.

Sierra Oscar

spacetweek wrote: »

Luas to Abbey St or walk it.

I don't live anywhere near the Luas line, it's not even remotely an option for me.

I walked up the quays today. I usually do so over the summer anyway. It's quicker to walk it but I think that's a pretty damning indictment of the current state of bus services in the city centre.

The traffic was moving at a snails pace up along the quays again this morning, the bus driver had warned us this that it would take 30mins + to reach College Green from Arran Quay. It's not really good when the bus drivers themselves are hinting that you should avoid staying on the bus.

LeinsterDub

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It can, most of the time, take longer for a bus to go from Inns Quay to Ormond Quay than it takes to walk it. Madness.

Routes like the 83 and others needlessly go down the quays. The NTA should reroute a number of routes away from the O'Connell Street area

BonnieSituation

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Routes like the 83 and others needlessly go down the quays. The NTA should reroute a number of routes away from the O'Connell Street area

Yup. No idea why that and say the 123 can't be routed more sensibly and away from OCS. The idea of interchange is laudable but that's only if you change one route in isolation from others without consideration of potential linsk that can be made.

Eg. Re-routing the 83 away from OCS and down Kevin St etc (Kimmage-Harristown) would link other parts of the city. And should people really need to go up OCS then they can hop off and interchange with a 122 et al anywhere from Camden St to Georges St depending on the options that are taken.

These options can be created for almost any part of the network if the will is there to do so.

In the attached file red is the current 83 route and the other lines are potential route options. Obviously this is assuming junction changes to facilitate these changes.

Heartbreak Hank

Scathing article on the LCC map on citymetric.com

noelfirl

Heartbreak Hank wrote: »

Scathing article on the LCC map on citymetric.com

While I agree that is is rubbish, I think perhaps people are getting a tad over wound up about this map. The final map will doubtless have to include the Luas zones, so I think this really should be treated as an interim outline map, really just to introduce the extension to the public.

Still, hopefully comments will be taken onboard in making the final iteration. Heaven forbid that the NTA force the usage of unified rail and tram map that complies with their own cartography guidance.

LeinsterDub

No additional shelter, rti signage or ticket machines on what looks like the completed Hardcourt St stop. 1 additional validatior added

Geuze

As the trams travel northbound along OCS, past the GPO stop, what will the destination sign read?

For half of them it will read Broombridge, okay.

The other half, will the destination be OCS Upper?

LXFlyer

Geuze wrote: »

As the trams travel northbound along OCS, past the GPO stop, what will the destination sign read?

For half of them it will read Broombridge, okay.

The other half, will the destination be OCS Upper?

One would assume so, or it could display Parnell - that level of detail will be decided when the service finally starts up.


That's some time off yet.

loyatemu

Geuze wrote: »

As the trams travel northbound along OCS, past the GPO stop, what will the destination sign read?

For half of them it will read Broombridge, okay.

The other half, will the destination be OCS Upper?

An Lár.