Margaret Thatcher and Ireland

Blisterman

Whenever anyone mentions Margaret Thatcher to a lot of Irish people, they practically spit on the ground.

But were her policies towards this country really as bad as people say? After all, she did go against unionist opposition and sign the Anglo-Irish agreement, which gave the republic a role in Northern Ireland affairs. It could be seen as the start of the peace process.

And I think her reaction to the hunger strikers was reasonable. After all, most people in Britain considered them to be terrorists. If she were to concede, there would have been public outroar. Can you imagine what would happen if an Al-Qaeda member were to do the same things nowadays?

So is it time for a reapraisal of Thatcher in Ireland?

Morlar

Blisterman wrote: »

And I think her reaction to the hunger strikers was reasonable. ........
So is it time for a reapraisal of Thatcher in Ireland?

I am not going to get involved in this thread but can you clear up why (aside from you comparing the IRA to the taliban) would now be the time for a public re-appraisal of Thatcher ?

Brendog

Reasonable is NOT letting people starve to death. She was a cold woman. Terrorists Killed 2,200 americans in 9/11. If they let 1 of their terrorist prisoners starve to death there would be uproar, and its not just the Irish who hate her.

To Quote Frankie Boyle: "You could give everyone in Scotland a shovel and we'd dig a hole so deep we could hand her over to satan personally."

claire h

Blisterman wrote: »

Whenever anyone mentions Margaret Thatcher to a lot of Irish people, they practically spit on the ground.

In my experience there's far more hatred for Thatcher in the UK than there is over here.

Fratton Fred

Brendog wrote: »

Reasonable is NOT letting people starve to death. She was a cold woman. Terrorists Killed 2,200 americans in 9/11. If they let 1 of their terrorist prisoners starve to death there would be uproar, and its not just the Irish who hate her.

To Quote Frankie Boyle: "You could give everyone in Scotland a shovel and we'd dig a hole so deep we could hand her over to satan personally."

I hated her with a passion, but I believe there is some ambiguity regarding how many people she actualy let starve to death http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/eamon-mccann/will-ira-ever-admit-truth-over-hunger-strike-13397183.html

InTheTrees

Blisterman wrote: »

Whenever anyone mentions Margaret Thatcher to a lot of Irish people, they practically spit on the ground.

I moved from Dublin to London for a few years towards the end of her "reign" and it was a very intense time in england.

There were constant strikes. The miners were out for a long time and spawned marches and riots and more strikes. If it hadnt been for the tin pot south american general invading the falklands she wouldnt have made it another term.

I'll say one thing for her, I may not have moved to California if she hadnt been around.

Blisterman

I'm talking about Ireland.
And it's not exactly the same as starving someone to death. They chose to refuse food. What would you suggest she do instead?

Skrynesaver

Just took a look at your home node, you were 11 when the last Tory government was kicked out.

Call me agist if you will, but believe me when I say Frankie Boyle's opinion is echoed by those of us who lived through her regime.

Morlar

Skrynesaver wrote: »

Just took a look at your home node, you were 11 when the last Tory government was kicked out.

Call me agist if you will, but believe me when I say Frankie Boyle's opinion is echoed by those of us who lived through her regime.

It's not directly about Tory this or tory that - just contrast Camerons Bloody Sunday speech with the fact that thatcher would not have permitted the enquiry to begin with even over her dead body. It's not a party issue - it's a personal morality issue in my view.

Fratton Fred

Morlar wrote: »

It's not directly about Tory this or tory that - just contrast Camerons Bloody Sunday speech with the fact that thatcher would not have permitted the enquiry to begin with even over her dead body. It's not a party issue - it's a personal morality issue in my view.

The world was a very different place back then.

Morlar

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The world was a very different place back then.

And yet some things never change.

Such as the immorality of shooting about 30 unarmed people in broad daylight, some in the back or with their hands up to surrender, people shot while running away, while crawling away, while lying wounded on the street, while running to help wounded family members and so on. The immorality of that and also of the successive uk govt response to it are things that don't change.

MarchDub

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The world was a very different place back then.

Yes - and I am saying this sincerely, there were a lot more "Empire Boys" around then - especially in Thatcher's party - who were looking backwards into the past and not forward to the reality of what Britain had to become.

Fratton Fred

Morlar wrote: »

And yet some things never change.

Such as the immorality of shooting about 30 unarmed people in broad daylight, some in the back or with their hands up to surrender, people shot while running away, while crawling away, while lying wounded on the street, while running to help wounded family members and so on. The immorality of that and also of the successive uk govt response to it are things that don't change.

I'm not sure what this has to do with Maggie Thatcher?

The hunger Strike was an entirely different kettle of fish, for starters the men were not exactly innocent civilians and were all active members of the IRA or INLA.

I'm not sure if it was a case of morals, or just sheer bloody mindedness to be honest.

InTheTrees

She had that right wing stand firm dont give an inch crush the opposition concede nothing way about her, that produced results by sheer bullying and slowly alienated more and more people.

Tragically the response to the hunger strikes was thatcherism taken to the extreme. Its no suprise to anyone she acted the way she did, but we still hoped she wouldnt,

ejmaztec

There was some talk of her having some Irish ancestry, in Kenmare I think, but the last time I searched for info, I couldn't find any. Perhaps she scorched it off the internet.

I think that she was just as much hated in the UK as she was here, but for different reasons. One true-blue Tory, a retired Lt. Colonel, whom I had dealings with, hated her with a vengeance, mostly due to his not getting a Knighthood, but also the fact that she was a woman. He cheered up a bit when I told him that she was probably a lady-boy.

I'm not a Tory, so I had no reason not to hate her.

Some mention here, but not much.
http://www.angelfire.com/ny/home/Kenmare.html

Maggie Thatcher - ancestor, an O'Sullivan
Billy Idol - mother, an O'Sullivan -

http://travel.viamichelin.com/web/Culture/Ireland/THE_COUNTRY_TODAY-Irish_Diaspora
Margaret Thatcher, ex-Prime Minister of the UK (1978–91), is descended from Catherine Sullivan, who emigrated in 1811 from Kenmare and became a washerwoman in England.


Maggie was a bit of a washerwoman, so carrying on the family tradition.

donaghs

InTheTrees wrote: »

I moved from Dublin to London for a few years towards the end of her "reign" and it was a very intense time in england.

There were constant strikes. The miners were out for a long time and spawned marches and riots and more strikes. If it hadnt been for the tin pot south american general invading the falklands she wouldnt have made it another term.

I'll say one thing for her, I may not have moved to California if she hadnt been around.

Compared to the Heath/Wilson 1970s, there weren't that many strikes during the Thatcher years.

The Miners Strike was the last big Union attempt to dictate to the government and it failed. There were the Poll Tax riots in her last days. In the early years there were many riots (Toxeth, Brixton, etc), but this was more to do with the global recession of the early 80s. The recession combined with a conservative fiscal policy did make her very unpopular in her first 3 years and she probably was saved by the Falklands War.

Never a fan myself, but I can see how British people were prepared for a radical change after the economic mess of the 70s. Christopher Hitchens (a Trotskyite at the time) admits he didn't vote in 1979 as he secretly hoped Thatcher would win.

A bit like Ronald Reagan, she has enemies and detractors in many corners, especially in the media, but enough people liked her to re-elect her and the Conservatives again and again.

In relation to Ireland, apart from the hunger strikes, she did also spout nonsense like "Northern Ireland is as British as Finchely" (her wealthy North London constituency). But this can be seen more as a negotiating position seeing as she signed the 1985 Anglo-Irish Agreement.

Possibly one of things which Irish people find most annoying about her was her fake posh accent she developed through elocution lessons.

Fratton Fred

Did she claim Northern Ireland is more British than Finchley, or observed it?

I've driven through Finchley many times and I don't think I have ever seen a union flag, but drive along the North Antrim coast and you're falling over the bleedin things.

donaghs

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Did she claim Northern Ireland is more British than Finchley, or observed it?

I've driven through Finchley many times and I don't think I have ever seen a union flag, but drive along the North Antrim coast and you're falling over the bleedin things.

She said "as British as Finchley". The fact that some parts of Northern Ireland fly lots of Union Jacks, and the rest of Britain does not, points to a difference. And Britain doesn't have lots of areas flying Irish Tricolours. Garret Fitzgerald also pointed out that Finchly didnt have armed soldiers patrolling the streets.

If she had said, the North Antrim coast is more British than Finchley, it wouldnt have had the same impact.

Hendon100

Blisterman wrote: »

I'm talking about Ireland.
And it's not exactly the same as starving someone to death. They chose to refuse food. What would you suggest she do instead?

She should have granted them their 5 basic demands. Margaret Thatcher refused to give the prisoners political status, so the people of Fermanagh and South Tyrone gave it to them instead. Whether you support what the IRA did or not, there's no denying that they had large support from the nationalist community in the North and what she did only strengthened the IRA.

Here are some other things she did in relation to Ireland:

- Put a ban on leading republicans in the media such as Gerry Adams (which is clearly autocratic and fascist whether you agree with them or not).

- Tried to criminalize republicanism which Bobby Sands made a mockery of.

- She ratified the Representation of the People Act as a measure to stop the people of Northern Ireland expressing their democratic will.

- She also wanted to but sanctions on the Irish republic and start deporting Irish people for the Republic not taking, in her opinion, strong enough measures against the IRA. Thatcher wanted the British army to be allowed to make incursions into the South on security missions which is clearly a breach of our sovereignty.

And thats only in relation to Ireland. Not to mention a whole load of other horrible things she did such as supporting the apartheid regime in South Africa.

r3nu4l

Hendon100 wrote: »

- Put a ban on leading republicans in the media such as Gerry Adams (which is clearly autocratic and fascist whether you agree with them or not).

Indeed but our own Government's sanction was worse than that of Maggie. At least in British Media they could use actors to voiceover the video commentary from people like Gerry Adams. In Ireland the media couldn't even do that thanks to Section 31.

Wikipedia (not always accuarate I'll admit) wrote:

The Troubles

During the Troubles in Northern Ireland censorship was used to prevent Sinn Féin and IRA members from having access to the media. Under Section 31 of the Broadcasting Act, it was forbidden to broadcast the voice of Sinn Féin members. This rule was brought in by Fianna Fáil Minister for Posts & Telegraphs Gerry Collins in 1971 and strengthened by Labour's Conor Cruise O'Brien in 1977.[citation needed]

The United Kingdom operated a similar rule between 1988 and 1994, although British broadcasters subverted this censorship by dubbing Sinn Féin speeches and interviews, with an actor's voice repeating the speech word-for-word. This was not possible in Ireland as the Government maintained the broadcasting ban did not allow word for word broadcast of a speech etc and had sacked the entire Raidió Teilifís Éireann (RTÉ) authority in 1971 and jailed RTÉ's Kevin O Kelly when he interviewed IRA chief of staff Sean Mac Stiofain but did not say he was the voice on a taped interview.[11]

However RTÉ even refused to broadcast Sinn Féin members when they were talking about matters completely unrelated to the Northern Troubles. For example, Sinn Féin member Larry O'Toole was not permitted to appear on RTÉ to talk about a trade union dispute he was involved in. Instead, clips of the speaker talking were shown, along with a brief summary of what was being said. The High Court later found that this exclusion was not justified under Section 31.[11]

As for Thatcher, I agree with the sentiment that her actions were more to do with her absolute stubborness than anything else. That single-mindedness and intransigence I believe is a big part of the reason that Irish people dislike her so intensely.

Japer

Blisterman wrote: »

Whenever anyone mentions Margaret Thatcher to a lot of Irish people, they practically spit on the ground.

But were her policies towards this country really as bad as people say? After all, she did go against unionist opposition and sign the Anglo-Irish agreement, which gave the republic a role in Northern Ireland affairs. It could be seen as the start of the peace process.

And I think her reaction to the hunger strikers was reasonable. After all, most people in Britain considered them to be terrorists. If she were to concede, there would have been public outroar. Can you imagine what would happen if an Al-Qaeda member were to do the same things nowadays?

So is it time for a reapraisal of Thatcher in Ireland?

A lot of Irish people like her, and a lot - probably hundreds of thousands - got jobs and a good living in the eighties in England, when Irish politicians had little to offer us here in Ireland. Think of our premier, Charles Haughey, telling us to wear the hairshirt, while he had his shirts custom made in the most expensive shop in the world beside the Ritz in Paris. Seventies Britain was destroyed by strikes and socialism ; Thatchers policies revitalised Britain, made it boom. She was elected for 3 terms and her government was the second biggest contributer to EC funds , after Germany. At least some of the hundreds of thousands of Irish people who were happy to vote with their feet over the decades and go to Britain, are grateful for the employment, fair play and good opportunities received there. Not everyone liked her, but she gave her job her best shot. She was a very hard worker, she was determined and did the best she could for her country and she was not corrupt, unlike many of our politicians. She was respected hugely from the USA to Russia, Regan to Gorbachev. Like her or loate her, she was proved correct on many issues.

owenc

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Did she claim Northern Ireland is more British than Finchley, or observed it?

I've driven through Finchley many times and I don't think I have ever seen a union flag, but drive along the North Antrim coast and you're falling over the bleedin things.

Aw aye everywhere especially this past few weeks sure today in town i seen dozens of scottish flags... they're a bit drastic putting them up don't you think.

owenc

ejmaztec wrote: »

There was some talk of her having some Irish ancestry, in Kenmare I think, but the last time I searched for info, I couldn't find any. Perhaps she scorched it off the internet.

I think that she was just as much hated in the UK as she was here, but for different reasons. One true-blue Tory, a retired Lt. Colonel, whom I had dealings with, hated her with a vengeance, mostly due to his not getting a Knighthood, but also the fact that she was a woman. He cheered up a bit when I told him that she was probably a lady-boy.

I'm not a Tory, so I had no reason not to hate her.

Some mention here, but not much.
http://www.angelfire.com/ny/home/Kenmare.html

Maggie Thatcher - ancestor, an O'Sullivan
Billy Idol - mother, an O'Sullivan -

http://travel.viamichelin.com/web/Culture/Ireland/THE_COUNTRY_TODAY-Irish_Diaspora
Margaret Thatcher, ex-Prime Minister of the UK (1978–91), is descended from Catherine Sullivan, who emigrated in 1811 from Kenmare and became a washerwoman in England.


Maggie was a bit of a washerwoman, so carrying on the family tradition.

Are you going to bring up every single person that has irish ancestry, i'm sick to the bone teeth of this being brought up, just because she has irish ancestry doesn't mean that its the end of the world, with the amount of mixing shes bound to have it, the biggest loyalists have irish ancestry and that doesn't change them so why would it change her, sure i have a wee bit of irish ancestry and thats not for changing me to a republican.

jordan..

owenc wrote: »

Are you going to bring up every single person that has irish ancestry, i'm sick to the bone teeth of this being brought up, just because she has irish ancestry doesn't mean that its the end of the world, with the amount of mixing shes bound to have it, the biggest loyalists have irish ancestry and that doesn't change them so why would it change her, sure i have a wee bit of irish ancestry and thats not for changing me to a republican.

So is everybody that is Irish a republican??

owenc

jordan.. wrote: »

So is everybody that is Irish a republican??

Naw but he makes a big fuss out of it because she has irish ancestry.

ejmaztec

owenc wrote: »

Are you going to bring up every single person that has irish ancestry, i'm sick to the bone teeth of this being brought up, just because she has irish ancestry doesn't mean that its the end of the world, with the amount of mixing shes bound to have it, the biggest loyalists have irish ancestry and that doesn't change them so why would it change her, sure i have a wee bit of irish ancestry and thats not for changing me to a republican.

Well, you see Owen, this is the History and Heritage forum, and all of our ancestors had their part in making us the people that we are today.

Perhaps Maggie Thatcher didn't like the fact that she had Irish ancestry, and allowed this dislike to affect her dealings with Irish people?

If people somehow didn't pass down their bigoted opinions from one generation to the next, the world would be a much better place.

Where do you think that your opinions come from?

Japer

ejmaztec wrote: »

Perhaps Maggie Thatcher didn't like the fact that she had Irish ancestry, and allowed this dislike to affect her dealings with Irish people?

Some of her friends and colleagures had been murdered and maimed by some Irish people, and yet she remained courteous and professional towards the Irish people, despite her and her family being under 24 hour "jihad". She sacrificed her personal freedom for her convictions, so that the majority of us in Ireland would not suffer from terrorism.

ejmaztec

Japer wrote: »

Some of her friends and colleagures had been murdered and maimed by some Irish people, and yet she remained courteous and professional towards the Irish people, despite her and her family being under 24 hour "jihad". She sacrificed her personal freedom for her convictions, so that the majority of us in Ireland would not suffer from terrorism.

Some people might say that she was too antagonistic, and never attempted to find the middle-ground with anyone. She threatened more than negotiated.

Politicians are always courteous to foreigners, unless their country is in an all-out war with them. The courtesy is purely down to protocol and diplomacy.

Wasn't Thatcher responsible for allowing foreign take-overs of British companies, so leaving the UK too reliant on financial services, a reliance that is now costing the UK tax-payer big bucks?

It also led to the recent state of affairs with Cadbury getting taken over by American giant Kraft, which in turn leaves Irish Cadbury employees wondering how long their jobs will last.

People who weren't affected by Thatcher's policies think she's great, but there were an awful lot of people who were adversely affected, and their opinion is entirely different.

She did shoot Scargill down in flames though, which was a good thing. He did more damage to the mining industry, because his ego got in the way.

owenc

ejmaztec wrote: »

Well, you see Owen, this is the History and Heritage forum, and all of our ancestors had their part in making us the people that we are today.

Perhaps Maggie Thatcher didn't like the fact that she had Irish ancestry, and allowed this dislike to affect her dealings with Irish people?

If people somehow didn't pass down their bigoted opinions from one generation to the next, the world would be a much better place.

Where do you think that your opinions come from?

Myself and a bit of my parents.

Letitiaxxx

I personally hate Margaret Thatcher for the way she treated Republicans/Nationalists and especially the way she let the political prisoners die. I hope she rots in hell!!

Blisterman

Can you give some more examples of how she treated Republicans and Nationalists badly, Letitia?