Why do people say that Fianna Fail is corrupt as a matter of fact ?

Drumpot

Just curious as its a remarkably popular throwout comment to make . .

There have certainly been individuals in the party who have done bad deeds, but that does not mean that a majority of the decisions made by the party (not individuals) were above board.

I presume most people understand that what has happened to our economy has been mainly a result of incompetency and poor decisions by FF as opposed to corruption?.

Also, bearing in mind that pretty much most of the politicians take advantage of the ridiculous expenses that T.D's can claim, I dont think other parties can take the moral highground (particularly "reverse paycut Kenny").

Pens at the ready . . What is corrupt about FF or is it fair to taint a whole party with the same brush as a few rogue individuals ?

Because they openly embrace certain people who have been proven to be at the very least EXTREMELY dodgy in their abuses of power.
As opposed to coming out and cracking down on corruption in the party, people are simply let away with it and a few weeks later the population forgets.

Lando Griffin

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Because they openly embrace certain people who have been proven to be at the very least EXTREMELY dodgy in their abuses of power.
As opposed to coming out and cracking down on corruption in the party, people are simply let away with it and a few weeks later the population forgets.

Hear hear.

Drumpot

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Because they openly embrace certain people who have been proven to be at the very least EXTREMELY dodgy in their abuses of power.
As opposed to coming out and cracking down on corruption in the party, people are simply let away with it and a few weeks later the population forgets.

Do you not think if the Irish People took to the streets en masse and protested for accountabillity, that FF would not crack the whip ?

teleboy

Drumpot wrote: »

Do you not think if the Irish People took to the streets en masse and protested for accountabillity, that FF would not crack the whip ?

Definitly.

But,TBH,the Irish people are simply just too lazy

eoinbn

Drumpot wrote: »

Do you not think if the Irish People took to the streets en masse and protested for accountabillity, that FF would not crack the whip ?

Nah, because we might need that FF TD to do something slightly immortal for us one day!

here2surf

I don't understand your presumption.
Are you saying that Fianna Fail are essentially incompetent and poor at making decisions?
You presume we understand that all the corruption associated with Fianna Fail has little to do with the shambles our economy is now in.
You sound a lot like Bertie and Charlie Mc.
"if it wasn't for Lehmans, We'd still be building Ghost Estates and the developers would be living it up with us in the Galway tent......"

kippy

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Because they openly embrace certain people who have been proven to be at the very least EXTREMELY dodgy in their abuses of power.
As opposed to coming out and cracking down on corruption in the party, people are simply let away with it and a few weeks later the population forgets.

This mostly.
People like O Donohoe, BCF, Callally, and countless others who have been found to have questionable attitudes have all been embraced by the party. Sure they may have gone under the radar for a while but they eventually get welcomed back with open arms and arent "forced" to right their wrongs.

thebman

When you hang around with dodgy people, protect dodgy people and give them golden pensions and handshakes, don't be surprised when people start labeling you the same.

paddyland

It is much more fundamental for me.

Leaving aside the Berties and the Beverleys for a moment, Fianna Fáil itself, as a party, traditionally espouses a culture of greed. They play on the inherent greed of ordinary people, and court these people with the promises of excessive personal gain, beyond what might be reasonably sustainable in the long term. Because they only govern with a view to the next election, never beyond. You can have the new car every year, the second house, and the holiday home in France, four holidays a year, and bloated public services funded by what is sold dishonestly as a 'low tax' economy. The fact that your neighbour down the road might be going out of business due to the reckless imbalance in society that provides you with a Monte Carlo lifestyle on a middle class income, is never acknowledged. We'll find some other lie to keep him quiet.

In this way, Fianna Fáil has sold a pup to generations of easily duped voters. Who is going to vote for a fiscally sensible and balanced standard of living when there is a snake oil salesman promising you unfettered riches and good times? Never mind that Las Vegas today probably means Detroit city tomorrow. Know this - Fianna Fáil understand NOTHING other than a farcical hope for a return to boom and gluttony as soon as possible. It's all they know, and failing that, they are all at sea. It is as much as they can do to scramble the deckchairs and save themselves, and to hell with the voters they duped through three fire auction elections.

It is easy to blame ordinary voters, and there is an element of truth in that, but the public voted for a dream that was too good to be true. Fianna Fáil corrupted a generation of this country, and now everyone is paying the price. Within that, then, you have individuals, both Fianna Fáil TDs and senators, and a rogue's gallery of hanger-onners in the banking and developing arenas, who simply made an art form out of corruption.

My point is that it is simply not enough to single out the Berties and the Beverleys, the Charlies and the Seanies, and hope to carry on regardless, business as usual. The corrupting influence of Fianna Fáil on politics and society in general needs to be examined, to see if there is any way of pulling society back from the whoremasters, who would sell their granny for a seat in power, and point the country in a whole new direction, where fairness and accountability, and most importantly, LONG TERM vision would be the way forward. We need an end to the short term selfish society of Fianna Fáil, and the only way to have that is to exclude Fianna Fáil as much as possible from any say in the matter.

goat2

Drumpot wrote: »

Just curious as its a remarkably popular throwout comment to make . .

There have certainly been individuals in the party who have done bad deeds, but that does not mean that a majority of the decisions made by the party (not individuals) were above board.

I presume most people understand that what has happened to our economy has been mainly a result of incompetency and poor decisions by FF as opposed to corruption?.

Also, bearing in mind that pretty much most of the politicians take advantage of the ridiculous expenses that T.D's can claim, I dont think other parties can take the moral highground (particularly "reverse paycut Kenny").

Pens at the ready . . What is corrupt about FF or is it fair to taint a whole party with the same brush as a few rogue individuals ?

what posessed you to ask that question, when you put one rotton spud in a bag of spuds it infects the lot, the same with apples, and the same with ----

jimmycrackcorm

goat2 wrote: »

what posessed you to ask that question, when you put one rotton spud in a bag of spuds it infects the lot, the same with apples, and the same with ----

If that's the case then everyone who posts in afterhours is a bigot.

ei.sdraob

maybe their ex boss not having a bank account and winning alot of money on brown envelopes horses has helped the reputation

btw @OP i noticed you are defending FF lately, why is that? are you affiliated?

hinault

Liam Lawlor (planning/corruption)
Ray Burke (jailed for corruption/tax evasion)
Charles Haughey (done for amongst things, accepting political donations, Des Traynor tax evasion schemes............)
John Ellis.
Denis Foley (tax evasion)
Beverley Cooper Flynn (need I say more)
Bertie Ahern (need I say more)
Padraic Flynn (need I say more)
Michael Collins TD Limerick (tax evasion)

goat2

and the boss before him owning an island, sailing from dublin to kerry living high, while telling the rest of us mere mortals to tighten our belts, we were barly getting by with the hugh inflated mortgages, while he partied

goat2

hinault wrote: »

Liam Lawlor (planning/corruption)
Ray Burke (jailed for corruption/tax evasion)
Charles Haughey (done for amongst things, accepting political donations, Des Traynor tax evasion schemes............)
John Ellis.
Denis Foley (tax evasion)is norma foley his daughter, today she would not give up her council expenses to improving the roads, would rather spend them on attending some conference, while councellor spring is giving his to improving he roads
Beverley Cooper Flynn (need I say more)
Bertie Ahern (need I say more)
Padraic Flynn (need I say more)
Michael Collins TD Limerick (tax evasion)

is that all of them

hinault

goat2 wrote: »

is that all of them

I'm sure there are more but I cannot recall them at the moment.

kuntboy

I wouldn't mind but going to the races is the extent of their imagination on how to spend their hard earned cash.

Liam Byrne

Drumpot wrote: »

Pens at the ready . . What is corrupt about FF or is it fair to taint a whole party with the same brush as a few rogue individuals ?

When the rest of the party condone those actions by voting confidence in them, lying through their teeth to deflect blame from them, and elect 2 of them as leaders ?

Yes.

sxt

"Power leads to corruption" and being in power for the best part of 80 years and for the last 20 years speaks for itself. Alot of people down the years were FF for life, no matter what carry on they got up to, they would still give them their vote and FF were blissfully aware of this.

Floppybits

hinault wrote: »

Liam Lawlor (planning/corruption)
Ray Burke (jailed for corruption/tax evasion)
Charles Haughey (done for amongst things, accepting political donations, Des Traynor tax evasion schemes............)
John Ellis.
Denis Foley (tax evasion)
Beverley Cooper Flynn (need I say more)
Bertie Ahern (need I say more)
Padraic Flynn (need I say more)
Michael Collins TD Limerick (tax evasion)

Probably need to add wee Willie O Dea to the list for his spreading rumours another politician, Also Dr Michael Woods for his deal with the church on the abuse. Im sure there are more.

PeterIanStaker

FF voters are a bit like hardcore Catholics in a way. They know abuse has gone on and that the leadership are morally bankrupt, but they display an amazing ability to block it out in an Orwellian doublethink way.

Fighting Irish

They made me buy a 3 bed house for €500,000 and now i lost my job and it's totally their fault

Tipp Man

eoinbn wrote: »

Nah, because we might need that FF TD to do something slightly immortal for us one day!

Top post, and totally true at the end of the day. We'll complain to the high heavens about something but most of us won't think twice about doing the same should the opportunity arise. this moral high ground makes me sick to be honest, and completly deflects from the job in hand of getting this country's finances sorted asap. Personally I don't care which party does it as long as someone does it

Pots and kettles

invinciblePRSTV

Tipp Man wrote: »

Top post, and totally true at the end of the day. We'll complain to the high heavens about something but most of us won't think twice about doing the same should the opportunity arise. this moral high ground makes me sick to be honest, and completly deflects from the job in hand of getting this country's finances sorted asap. Personally I don't care which party does it as long as someone does it

Pots and kettles

Sounds like you're defending gombeen behaviour and political corruption to me tbh. I've never tried to use or lobby a politician to do something for me, what have they done for you?

bijapos

Drumpot wrote: »

Do you not think if the Irish People took to the streets en masse and protested for accountabillity, that FF would not crack the whip ?

It should not be up to the Irish people to go on the streets to rid ourselves of corruption and demand accountability. It should be up to FF to see that their member is behaving wrong and to then permanently exclude them from the party when it is known that they are doing this.

Until FF start to show zero tolerance to the likes of Burke, Cooper et al they will gain no respect or vote from a large majority of the population. They should be the ones policing themselves, not us.

That said people have constantly voted the corrupt ones in on a regular basis.

Liam Byrne

eoinbn wrote: »

Nah, because we might need that FF TD to do something slightly immortal for us one day!

They might be able to cheat lots of things, but I doubt even they could manage death.....

......mind you, I suppose - like everything else - it depends on where your contacts are!!!!

Tipp Man

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Sounds like you're defending gombeen behaviour and political corruption to me tbh. I've never tried to use or lobby a politician to do something for me, what have they done for you?

they did what the brown envelope paid them to do:rolleyes:

Zulu

Honestly OP? It's not rocket science...
For the same reason certain third world governments are deemed to be corrupt; for the same reasons certain third world police forces are deemed to be corrupt:

because they have been proven time and again to be corrupt and they've done nothing to rectify that.

Zulu

Tipp Man wrote: »

they did what the brown envelope paid them to do:rolleyes:

...which may be fine if they were only paid in brown envelopes.

They are, however, paid very well by the public. (Most for a number of jobs!) But don't let that bother you. :rolleyes:

Laminations

Tipp Man wrote: »

Top post, and totally true at the end of the day. We'll complain to the high heavens about something but most of us won't think twice about doing the same should the opportunity arise. this moral high ground makes me sick to be honest, and completly deflects from the job in hand of getting this country's finances sorted asap. Personally I don't care which party does it as long as someone does it

Pots and kettles

This is why I mistook you for a FFer. By overlooking the corruption, the acceptance of corruption within its ranks and the incompetence, you are sounding very like a FFer.

Tipp Man wrote: »

You've got me completly wrong. I'm not a FF'er at all, in fact have never voted in this state (Uni and working abroad for a few years). I've no idea where you got the idea that I was FFer. I have no alligence to any party but I do know that I am no leftie. (intruiged as to why you think I'm a FF'er?? is it because i stated I wasn't a FGer either but I'm clearly a right of centre so I must be a FFer)

Laminations wrote: »

Apologies Tipp Man, I try and keep the names of the 12 or so FFers on this forum in my head and your name must've accidentally crept in there.

I've never lobbied a politician (especially for a personal issue) nor would anyone I know find it appropriate.

Tipp Man wrote: »

they did what the brown envelope paid them to do:rolleyes:

You serious? If you excuse them of their corrupt members so easily I'll withdraw my apology for thinking you are one of them

ART6

For as long as I can remember (and that's a very long time!) it was generally accepted that Irish politics at all levels was corrupt. The planning consent that was given to a developer to create a massive housing estate in a village where the local small shopkeeper was refused permission to erect a small patio to serve coffee to tourists. The business of the private transmitters that relayed UK TV but were put out of business in favour of a rival (and wealthy) operation, who were granted a sole licence. The TDs and councillors who wined and dined in local 5 star hotels with developers who then obtained rezoning of land for development.

Corruption is not restricted to fiddling expenses. So many of them do that, and they make the rules so that the fiddling is acceptable. It's peanuts compared with the real issue. That is that the culture of corruption had become so ingrained that it was wiewed almost as a right for a TD, councillor, etc. It happened because the generation before mine, and mine too, (but bl***y well not me) could not imagine criticising a TD, councillor, or priest.

Fortunately that has changed. The new generation is bolshie and not at all inclined to tug the forelock. The question then is "Can the established politicians and parties change their ways?" Given the hierachy of Irish politics, I suspect they will have to be dragged screaming into the new millenia.

Tipp Man

Laminations wrote: »

This is why I mistook you for a FFer. By overlooking the corruption, the acceptance of corruption within its ranks and the incompetence, you are sounding very like a FFer.





I've never lobbied a politician (especially for a personal issue) nor would anyone I know find it appropriate.


You serious? If you excuse them of their corrupt members so easily I'll withdraw my apology for thinking you are one of them

Of course I'm not serious, I thought the:rolleyes: gave it away

I think you have misunderstood my first quote as I have not overlooked or accepted any corruption, my point was that there are massive problems in this country and too many people are getting side tracked with issues that are not going to solve the financial mess that thiis country is in. We even got a mention in the British budget yesterday as the only country in Europe to be in a bigger mess than the UK!!

It is worth noting that Patrick Hoonahan made the distinct point in his interview with Browne that he found no wrongdoings on the part of the government with regards to corruption, policy decisions yes, corruption no. I'm not being pro FF here, I'm just saying that what some people thing as some big corruption scandal is just examples of (very) bad government policy. doesn't make it any easier but their is a huge difference

With regards to lobbying of politicans, maybe you have not ever done it but I think it is almost certain that at least 1 person you know has done it, its an epidemic in this country. And don't listen to too much to how holy the people who you are talking to are pretending to be, those who sit furthest up the church on a sunday morning are often the biggest perpatrators. Planning permission being 1 area where it most certainly goes on

aDeener

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Because they openly embrace certain people who have been proven to be at the very least EXTREMELY dodgy in their abuses of power.
As opposed to coming out and cracking down on corruption in the party, people are simply let away with it and a few weeks later the population forgets.

i suppose that's FF's fault too

Shea O'Meara

Founded by a thief (DeValera the scumbag) who stole from Irish people to line his and his family's pockets. Generations of under the counter corruption and general distain for the greater Irish public.........it's a matter of fact.
They should be judged as an illegal organisation in my view.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

why are we saying 'as a matter of fact '

IT IS A FACT

aDeener

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Founded by a thief (DeValera the scumbag) who stole from Irish people to line his and his family's pockets. Generations of under the counter corruption and general distain for the greater Irish public.........it's a matter of fact.
They should be judged as an illegal organisation in my view.

fuck me pink :rolleyes:

Fiskar

Definition of corrupt from d****.net

1. Changed from a sound to a putrid state; spoiled; tainted; vitiated; unsound. [1913 Webster]

FF are tainted with the collapse of the banking sector and the economy

FF are spoiled with the trappings of power

FF are unsound to continue especially with that incompetent ex finance minister as leader of the party

Jumpy

DaDumTish wrote: »

why are we saying 'as a matter of fact '

IT IS A FACT

Or "INFACTAA" see what I did there?

Wide Road

We forgot the ex minister that had John Bruton as his best friend. Oh sorry, wrong party. But that's ok, it's his ex party now.

Arnold Layne

goat2 wrote: »

is that all of them

Dev, the grandaddy of them all. Setting up The Irish Press from money he received in the US for the War of Independence for his family.

T runner

goat2 wrote: »

is that all of them

Wow. Must have been a good 2% there. Yep all corrupt.

And before someone accuses me of being affiliated to FF because I didnt denounce them as satan worshippers

---

Im not.

Sand

Fianna Fail are a corrupt party and they endorse corrupt politicians and corrupt politics. Hence the public recognise them as being corrupt. Maybe theres some saints in there, but there in the back benches where they belong in Fianna Fail.

kippy

T runner wrote: »

Wow. Must have been a good 2% there. Yep all corrupt.

The point is the party accepted them, very few did any time/paid back any ill gotten gains or were investigated further by the gardai.

That being said, other major parties have all had similiar "issues" and dealt with them in a similiar manner but FF appear to be the most blatent about it.

Shea O'Meara

T runner wrote: »

Wow. Must have been a good 2% there. Yep all corrupt.

If the driver of a car is known to like a drink and run over people from time to time and you're a willing passenger having enabled his boozing or simply turned a blind eye, can you really plead innocence for any wrong doings which occur?

T runner wrote: »

And before someone accuses me of being affiliated to FF because I didnt denounce them as satan worshippers

---

Im not.

You often defend them in the guise of complaining about the way other people voice their distain, then state you're not a supporter. If the cap fits. Or are you simply the Mary Whitehouse of Boards?

jacaranda

It's all very well to complain about FF, but lets not forget that the electorate do continue to vote for them. And Michael Lowery, and Beverly Flynn and so on.

Its not comfortable to admit it, but the Irish electorate seems to not mind voting for those who have committed disgraceful acts. What does that say about Ireland and the electorate?

Magi11

I think that corruption has been in FF since its founding so its basically in its DNA. However in recent times they've become so blatant about it that I'm not sure we notice anymore. There are 3 by elections well over due in the State, 2 of which will result in FF losing seats and one will give FG or Labour another seat, so basically a 3 seat swing against the government. FF's Cyprian Brady called the defeat on a vote in the Dail to hold these by elections as "democracy in action"!!!! Is this Albania? or The North in the 70's? People are being denied some very basic rights for the sake of FF's addiction to power. All FF members voted not to hold these by elections - not one of them could say it was for any other reason that clinging to power. But why wouldn't they? When the people of Donegal Soth West, Waterford and Dublin South sit on their hands and occasionally shout at the rain. Not that I'd do anything if it was one of the 4 Constituencies where I have a vote! We get the government we deserve and they therefore treat us with the respect we deserve, which is none.

maynooth_rules

jacaranda wrote: »

It's all very well to complain about FF, but lets not forget that the electorate do continue to vote for them. And Michael Lowery, and Beverly Flynn and so on.

Its not comfortable to admit it, but the Irish electorate seems to not mind voting for those who have committed disgraceful acts. What does that say about Ireland and the electorate?

That a stupidly high proportion of them stick to voting with their family. Because they come from a FF family, they will vote for them come what may. It is the biggest obstacle for good politics in this country. We cannot expect a corrupt party to change its ways when they know they are assured a certain percentage of votes no matter what they do.

jmayo

maynooth_rules wrote: »

That a stupidly high proportion of them stick to voting with their family. Because they come from a FF family, they will vote for them come what may. It is the biggest obstacle for good politics in this country. We cannot expect a corrupt party to change its ways when they know they are assured a certain percentage of votes no matter what they do.

I think this point is often over stated.
I know families where for generations they may have voted FG, but some of the offsprings now votes ff because it is seen as being more beneficial for getting the likes of planning or state work.
ff are always getting into power and thus they are the ones with "the pull".
And they are the ones that use that pull to get supporters benefits.

Also another point I keep hammering away and no one appears to listen is that it wasn't just the old rural voters and long term ff families that voted for ff over the last few elections.
A lot of young students/workers and professionals voted for them (and bertie) because they were the parties/people that were seen as the ones that gave these young voters free third level education, jobs in ireland and availability of cheap credit.

Most involved in the construction industry be it builders, developers, auctioneers, retailers probably voted for the party that gave them the construction boom (some of us knew it was a bubble but did anyone want to know).

scr123

In 2007 75% of the electorate did not vote FF. Thats a lot of people who want your blood, especially after the economic downturn. They are coming out of the woodwork all over the country to get a piece of the anti FF action. People who have never even voted in their lives are enjoying the moment of glory of at long last crucifying FF. On message boards like this threads are started time after time by perpetual political failures who can smell blood. They go on and on about corruption until you ask them to make specific charges against the individuals associated with FF they constantly list. Like all cowards they stick to innuendo because they know to be specific will leave them open to possible legal proceedings. One FF politician has been convicted in our courts of corruption and served time.
Those on the corruption bandwagon are sick hypoctites who are no way interested in right and wrong but have an obsession with only destroying FF in their hunger for power denied to them for so long by superior politicians.

FF are in power so long and so often because a majority ofthe people who come out to vote have rejected the extremism of right wing FG and the cabal left wing extremists led by the Labour Party who now have 100 years of failure behind them. I am FF because when I look left or right I see nothing but convoluted disaster.
Whether its me or any member of FF I suggest specific charges of corruption are made and those charges will be dealt with in a court of law.

The people who say FF is corrupt as a matter of fact are people who have never voted FF and generally people who are at this stage emotionally disturbed at their inability to beat FF where it counts, the ballot box.

Oh, a little worry of mine is that if the hatred of FF ever stopped it means FF are dead !

invinciblePRSTV

Tipp Man wrote: »

Of course I'm not serious, I thought the:rolleyes: gave it away

I think you have misunderstood my first quote as I have not overlooked or accepted any corruption, my point was that there are massive problems in this country and too many people are getting side tracked with issues that are not going to solve the financial mess that thiis country is in. We even got a mention in the British budget yesterday as the only country in Europe to be in a bigger mess than the UK!!

Political corruption breeds economic incompetence. You can't have one without the other. Realise that the brown envelope culture reached its logical conclusion in 21st Century Ireland with the relationship between special interests and politicians reaching its nadir. We need to eliminate this from the body politics, thats if we want to prevent from whats gone before happening again.

Tipp Man wrote: »

It is worth noting that Patrick Hoonahan made the distinct point in his interview with Browne that he found no wrongdoings on the part of the government with regards to corruption, policy decisions yes, corruption no. I'm not being pro FF here, I'm just saying that what some people thing as some big corruption scandal is just examples of (very) bad government policy. doesn't make it any easier but their is a huge difference

Understand the fluid relationship between government policy and special interests. It's been the defining feature of the past decade. If we ignore it then we're doomed to repeat it.

Tipp Man wrote: »

With regards to lobbying of politicans, maybe you have not ever done it but I think it is almost certain that at least 1 person you know has done it, its an epidemic in this country. And don't listen to too much to how holy the people who you are talking to are pretending to be, those who sit furthest up the church on a sunday morning are often the biggest perpatrators. Planning permission being 1 area where it most certainly goes on

Religion doesn't make people less corrupt.