Series 5, Episode 13 - " The Big Bang "

Penn

Absolutely brilliant. No big Deus Ex Machina. Rory's story was genius. The mindf*ck with Amy in the Pandorica was brilliant. It was really funny. And the "Something old, something new, something borrowed and something blue" bit was fantastic.

My only gripe would have been at the end of Flesh and Stone, River said she'd see them when The Pandorica Opens, meaning it was too obvious that they'd all survive it somehow. But either way, definitely the best 2 part finale (and final episode) of the revamped series

phil1nj

Very, very disappointed with this episode. Too many unanswered questions (mainly how did he get OUT of the Pandorica in the first place. Last weeks episode had him being locked for all eternity in a prison devised by his enemies etc etc, universes blinking out of existence, companions being bumped off and then this week sees him jumping back and forward in time with a fez and mop undoing all the stuff that happened last week - poor story telling in my book!)

Feeling a bit short changed about that and a few of the other loose ends (silence falling, TARDIS being controlled by a "mysterious" entity, ominous voice being heard which may or may not have been Davros). Three year arc maybe, but if not then somone needs to have a word with the writers.

Penn

crayolastereo wrote: »

That was....less cool than I was expecting. Bit deus ex machina the whole thing.

Really? I thought the opposite. Let's face it, in the RTD era we had Rose absorbing the time vortex and destroying half a million Daleks by waving her hand, people from a parallel dimension turning up, the Doctor turning into Old Man Tinkerbell then into SuperDoctor, and Donna becoming half Doctor, as well as a new HumanDoctor.

In this, the Doctor was brought back simply because he left a way for Amy to remember him. Something for which there had been clues about for the entire series

Also Starring LeVar Burton

phil1nj wrote: »

Very, very disappointed with this episode. Too many unanswered questions (mainly how did he get OUT of the Pandorica in the first place. Last weeks episode had him being locked for all eternity in a prison devised by his enemies etc etc, universes blinking out of existence, companions being bumped off and then this week sees him jumping back and forward in time with a fez and mop undoing all the stuff that happened last week - poor story telling in my book!)

Feeling a bit short changed about that and a few of the other loose ends (silence falling, TARDIS being controlled by a "mysterious" entity, ominous voice being heard which may or may not have been Davros). Three year arc maybe, but if not then somone needs to have a word with the writers.

Wow, you really don't get time travel do you? And you possibly missed a good portion of the episode, because how he got out was shown to us...

phil1nj

Eh no, dont think I missed most of this episode. Saw him appear and give Rory his sonic screwdriver with instructions telling him how to let him out and put Amy in instead. Time travel or not that's just cheating.

wench

CaptainNegative wrote: »

how he got out was shown to us...

it was, but there is still the paradox that he travelled back to tell Rory to open the Pandorica, but he could only do that because Rory had opened it...

nicowa

phil1nj wrote: »

Eh no, dont think I missed most of this episode. Saw him appear and give Rory his sonic screwdriver with instructions telling him how to let him out and put Amy in instead. Time travel or not that's just cheating.

Well, if you think about it, who else besides the Doctor is going to be able to get the Doctor out of that fix? It's a chicken-and-egg situation, the way it happened, but that's what so good about it. Bit of a mindf...... if you know what I mean?!?!

pixelburp

Fez's are cool.




A cast of four people and yet the finale felt more epic and stirring than many previous final stories. Epic, amazing, heart breaking, exciting, stunning stuff. Enjoyed every last minute of it. Amazing to think how seldom time travel actually features in Dr. Who, and yet here it was so cheekily done - and mostly made sense. Yes it was built on a big paradox, but that's the fun of it. The doctor got out because in the future he had already got out. Marvellous

And the ending was fantastic. The whole wedding sequence was lovely when Amy & Rory remembered the Doctor. Equally fantastic is that the two of them, newly weds, head off with him! Yay, more Rory!

Roll on Xmas / Series 6.

phil1nj

So he travelled back in time to tell Rory to open the Padorica (check), Rory then opened the Padorica to let him out (check). This was possible because Rory had already opened the Padorica in teh future (check) ...head expolodes!!!!!

Sorry, still sounds like a major cop out to me (and over simplistic to boot).

pixelburp

phil1nj wrote: »

So he travelled back in time to tell Rory to open the Padorica (check), Rory then opened the Padorica to let him out (check). This was possible because Rory had already opened the Padorica in teh future (check) ...head expolodes!!!!!

Sorry, still sounds like a major cop out to me (and over simplistic to boot).

Makes sense to me. It is a show about a time travelling basketcase after all.

If RTD was writing it, he'd have used a ressurection potion, which of course is not at all simplistic or a cop-out. Lord no, that's just Science that is.

Mr E

Dude, its a time travelling doctor who isn't really a doctor travelling across time and space in a blue police box thats small on the outside and big on the inside, dealing robotic dustbins and other such creations on a weekly basis, opening, closing, fixing things with a screwdriver which isn't really a screwdriver, and always, somehow, manages to save the day ....

Go with the flow... don't overthink it.

Raedwald

phil1nj wrote: »

So he travelled back in time to tell Rory to open the Padorica (check), Rory then opened the Padorica to let him out (check). This was possible because Rory had already opened the Padorica in teh future (check) ...head expolodes!!!!!

Sorry, still sounds like a major cop out to me (and over simplistic to boot).

The fact that he could do something because his future self had already done it, is a well used idea in many films and books that feature time travel.

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban springs to mind.

Its basically used as a ploy by writers to get out of a situation that has the potential to get overly complicated or if in this case they want to save a scene showing how he does get out in his past/present.

phil1nj

Sorry, expected better from the writers. If someone from the future is going to tell someone in the (realtive) past to arrange a few bits and pieces to help them get out of a sticky situation then the chain of events that lead to that future had better add up - otherwise the plot line is better suited to a Bill and Ted movie or an episode of Red Dwarf where time travel was used for comic effect.

Time Travelling basket cases don't get a pass just becuase it suits them to concoct a handy time paradox to explain away sloppy story telling.

pixelburp

phil1nj wrote: »

Sorry, expected better from the writers. If someone from the future is going to tell someone in the (realtive) past to arrange a few bits and pieces to help them get out of a sticky situation then the chain of events that lead to that future had better add up - otherwise the plot line is better suited to a Bill and Ted movie or an episode of Red Dwarf where time travel was used for comic effect.

Time Travelling basket cases don't get a pass just becuase it suits them to concoct a handy time paradox to explain away sloppy story telling.

How would you have ended it then? Fair question if you think it's over simplistic (not something I've often heard people call time travel plots, but there you go)...

phil1nj

Raedwald wrote: »

The fact that he could do something because his future self had already done it, is a well used idea in many films and books that feature time travel.

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban springs to mind.

Its basically used as a ploy by writers to get out of a situation that has the potential to get overly complicated or if in this case they want to save a scene showing how he does get out in his past/present.

I don't remember the characters from Harry Potter being locked in an inescapable prison unable to communicate with anyone on the outside for all eternity....but I take your point.

Raedwald

Well then you have very high standards that wont ever be satisfied by the writers of this show. Due to the fact that it is not meant to be deadly serious and aimed solely at adults but light hearted and fun aimed at all generations, so take it with a pinch of salt and enjoy it for what it is.

phil1nj

pixelburp wrote: »

How would you have ended it then? Fair question if you think it's over simplistic (not something I've often heard people call time travel plots, but there you go)...

We still had River Song on the Tardis (which was exploding, fair enough) but she had the ultimate piece of time travel hardware at her disposal (and there was a vortex manipulator lying around somewhere as well), a bit of creative writing and a few fresh ideas might have come up with a better way to end it (and still keep all of the other stuff that people seem to enjoy about this episode). Anyway, I'm not being paid to write this stuff, teh BBC writers are and obviously they know best.

pixelburp

phil1nj wrote: »

We still had River Song on the Tardis (which was exploding, fair enough) but she had the ultimate piece of time travel hardware at her disposal (and there was a vortex manipulator lying around somewhere as well), a bit of creative writing and a few fresh ideas might have come up with a better way to end it (and still keep all of the other stuff that people seem to enjoy about this episode). Anyway, I'm not being paid to write this stuff, teh BBC writers are and obviously they know best.

So you're idea of creative writing involves the classic "with one bound he was free" mechanic of using the TARDIS to rescue the Doctor. That's as bad as the sonic screwdriver's overused. No offence mate, but that's so Deus Ex Machina, I'm pretty sure it fits the textbook definition & is a thousand times lazier and hacky than a cheeky time-travel based resolution. Are you RTD in disguise?

Raedwald

phil1nj wrote: »

I don't remember the characters from Harry Potter being locked in an inescapable prison unable to communicate with anyone on the outside for all eternity....but I take your point.

No scene in the book, harry could get rid of the dementors (sp) in his present because he had seen his future self get rid of them in his past.

Very bad explanation that i know.

phil1nj

pixelburp wrote: »

So you're idea of creative writing involves the classic "with one bound he was free" mechanic of using the TARDIS to rescue the Doctor. That's as bad as the sonic screwdriver's overused. No offence mate, but that's so Deus Ex Machina, I'm pretty sure it fits the textbook definition & is a thousand times lazier and hacky than a cheeky time-travel based resolution. Are you RTD in disguise?

No I'm not RTD (honest). But the last time there was a paradox used in DW it involved the Master turing the TARDIS in to a paradox machine to allow him to create the paradox. This time however it "just" happened because the Doctor said so.

Pfft, I'm off to watch repeats of Series 4 on Watch.........

Penn

Just rewatching it now. When the Tardis came back and Rory says "How did we forget the Doctor?" Could anyone else hear him say "I was plastic" to Amy's mother as Amy was climbing over the table?

Pittens

Time Travelling basket cases don't get a pass just becuase it suits them to concoct a handy time paradox to explain away sloppy story telling.

Paradox's like this are the best kind of time travel writing. Did you like blink? Care to tell me how the Doctor had the script he was reading. Sally sparrow wrote it, you say? He read it, you say? But she wrote it because he read it to her from the script she wrote which he read which she.... etc.

I haven't read a review of Blink which made this case. Look, if you dont like these paradoxes then you should not watch the show. All that time travel paradoxes have to be is consistent within their own logic. So having been released from the Pandorica with help from his future self, all that remained was for his future self to go back wearing the same kind of outfit. That had to happen. That was handled really well. He realised he lost the sonic screwdriver and then went back ( to something we had already seen), and then it materialised in Amy's pocket.

if you dont like that kinda thing this is the wrong show for you.

Pittens

My favourite bit, ( rewatching) - Amelia is on the stairs and her Aunt is talking about that "star cult" and how she didnt trust the leader "Richard Dawkins"

nicowa

Pittens wrote: »

That had to happen. That was handled really well. He realised he lost the sonic screwdriver and then went back ( to something we had already seen), and then it materialised in Amy's pocket

Actually - well, the way I think about it anyway - he realised he hadn't made sure that he wouldn't lose the sonic screwdriver. If he had checked first the screwdriver *might* not have been there. We'll never know. Maybe Rory would have thought of it on his own. But by going back in time like that, he was making sure that it would be there.

Being honest, the way I've always decided I'd use time travel would be to spend the entire time saying, "look, I'm just going to turn around, so that my future self can fix this and then tell me how I fixed it so that I can come back in time and fix it".

Which is basically what happened in the Red Nose Day Special (feel free to correct me on the name) when the two Doctors met and the two TARDIS'es became one and Ten was able to fix the TARDIS cos he remembered that he was able to fix it.

And that was RTD.

Which is basically what happened here...

Daemos

nicowa wrote: »

Which is basically what happened in the Red Nose Day Special (feel free to correct me on the name) when the two Doctors met and the two TARDIS'es became one and Ten was able to fix the TARDIS cos he remembered that he was able to fix it.

And that was RTD.

Which is basically what happened here...

It was called Time Crash, but it wasn't written by RTD, it was Moffat again

BaconZombie

Look like the webpage I quote in the first post was just somebody Trolling.......

BlitzKrieg

it's an episode that sort of sums of everything I liked and disliked of the RTD era so much and gave me what I wanted...yet I didnt want it.


I mentioned in the *am i the only one who hates the new series* thread that the major difference between the two series was how the doctor was written and the plots generally reflect the type of doctor we have. Hence under RTD it was always bigger, shinier and louder, while Moffet had with exception to the first episode toned it all down alot more so the doctor was not so big but much more cunning. Less the word of God and more the word of reason.

And this whole episode personified that...and it was good. The doctor not making large grand gestures but instead manipulating in small amounts bit by bit, piece by piece. So even though we get the somewhat cringeworthy bit near the end, unlike say series 3 (where the vast majority of this happened off screen without explanation and with no real development) here we saw a notion get pushed through the whole episode (and I guess even the series) that delivers in the end.

And thats all good.


But there is a bad side to this good. RTD's finales really do make for a definite *bang* END! for each series. Especially the tennant ones. They were satisfying because everything builds to these episodes and you get the climatic final showdown with the big baddie of the series, be it daleks, the master or torchwood. There is a somewhat basic joyful satisfaction in seeing the doctor triumphant over what is essentially a big final boss to a 13 level video game. And then FULL STOP. New series, it all gets somewhat reset and we start a new series somewhat fresh with the prior series only having small effects on the new series and we start building to another big finale.

It was expected. Look at that last thread, people talked about who the big baddie was going to be more then anything else and in the end there was none.

And more importantly the series has made it clear that plot from the finale will run into the next series, things are not resolved and more revelations are to come.


I like this, I miss the big finale, but I like the long stretching story arc and its what I was saying Moffet has over RTD, he write Who with legs, he can stretch an arc over more then one series. RTD tended to burn plot threads out a bit too quickly.


So it was what I wanted, but I do feel somewhat annoyed that I got to wait a year now for the next series to get perhaps closure.


It also means if it is the valeyard/dreamlord then I will be satisfied as I was saying if they'd used him for this finale after so recently reintroducing him it would have been a waste...but playing it out over 2 series...now that is ample room for character development.

BlitzKrieg

phil1nj wrote: »

So he travelled back in time to tell Rory to open the Padorica (check), Rory then opened the Padorica to let him out (check). This was possible because Rory had already opened the Padorica in teh future (check) ...head expolodes!!!!!

Sorry, still sounds like a major cop out to me (and over simplistic to boot).

Such a cop out that James Cameron made millions using the same logic for the terminator films

angelll

Oh i loved it! Cried over rory's story,am delighted he's no longer plastic! It was really really good...and this is from someone who disliked the first half of the series. It's gotten so much better,loved it...and the fez . One question though? If the doctor was erased from time and only amy remembering him would bring him back...how come river song remembered him? And dropped amy the empty notebook,thus ensuring she would remember him and bring him back to life? Oh and according to imdb the voice in the tardis was *big spoiler*

Omega

.

Daemos

Now for the part I hate most about Doctor Who: waiting for it to come back

Pittens

.how come river song remembered him?

The river story is the weird one in this. We dont even know where she was from. 20th and 21st century Earth apparantly.

Also, this is clearly a reboot, right? I mean the Doctor has his memories but nothing of his memories ever happened - Rose is walking around on Earth unharmed.

anotherlostie

Loved it - Amelia meeting Amy was real WTF stuff. Matt Smith's speech to Amy before he left was outstanding, no gnashing of teeth and wailing needed to get across how he felt.

And I hope that Rory's continued journeys mean he'll be a regular companion next year - a 2 companion dynamic would be great (not to mention River Song will inevitably have to appear at intervals to progress the story).

nicowa

DaPoolRulz wrote: »

It was called Time Crash, but it wasn't written by RTD, it was Moffat again

Apologies... possibly my point is no longer as valid... da*n.

angelll wrote: »

One question though? If the doctor was erased from time and only amy remembering him would bring him back...how come river song remembered him? And dropped amy the empty notebook,thus ensuring she would remember him and bring him back to life?

Well, I'd say she obviously comes from the future. So she could have as much time as she wanted to remember him in and could simply come back to that time to remind Amy. And in plot terms, the Doctor knew Amy better so she was more connected to the version of him that got lost.

Pittens wrote: »

Also, this is clearly a reboot, right? I mean the Doctor has his memories but nothing of his memories ever happened - Rose is walking around on Earth unharmed.

Probably not. The writing was back in the book. And I know that's not an exact science....

iguana

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

Absolutely brilliant. No big Deus Ex Machina.

What? Flying a Pandorica, which can just suddenly be flown from the inside (Deus Ex Machina 1) into an exploding TARDIS which is exploding everywhen in the universe (Deus Ex Machina 2) will cause a big bang (Deus Ex Machina 3) and start the same universe all over again because a few fleck of the old universe fell in it (Deus Ex Machina 4). Worst of all, once a-bloody-gain, everybody lives, even people we didn't even know were alive in the first place.:mad: At the end of The Doctor Dances we were told that 'just this once, everybody lives.' It was once off, it was special, but over and over again Moffat has had everybody live.

This time he erased the universe where people had died, so this time around anyone who was killed all series as a result of the crack has been restored. The vampire fish? Their planet is still there, the black girl they killed, free to live her life out, her dad who sacrificed himself, never happened. The woman who was killed by prisoner zero in The Eleventh Hour, chuckling at Amy's dad's speech shenanigans.:rolleyes: Christ RTD had some major flaws but at least most of the dead stayed dead. Pretty much the only thing I admired about the episode Rose was that the dead stayed dead. The Doctor obsessed but obviously loving father and husband gets killed in the shopping centre and there was never any reset, something which continued throughout the series. It was why the end of The Doctor Dances was so special. If death can be reversed it cheapens it.

phil1nj wrote: »

otherwise the plot line is better suited to a Bill and Ted movie or an episode of Red Dwarf where time travel was used for comic effect.

Exactly, I had a strong fear since the whole jacket off, jacket on, jacket off scenario in Flesh and Stone that we were seeing the doctor from the finale at times throughout the series. I really hoped I was wrong as it's a joke. It was the point of the Bill and Ted finale, there is no plot tension if it's possible for the hero to make a note to self to go back in time later and ensure a means to get through any current difficulty. It worked in Bill and Ted because it was a self-knowing comedy. Using a 21 year old joke as a series long plot device is infinitely more childish than fart jokes.

GSPfan

Pittens wrote: »

Also, this is clearly a reboot, right? I mean the Doctor has his memories but nothing of his memories ever happened - Rose is walking around on Earth unharmed.

No no no no no. He didn't exist right up until Amy remembered him. So when she remembered him he now existed and has always existed. So everything he has done and is doing has always happened.

It annoys me that any of you are trying to pick holes in this episode. Why do you want to ruin it for yourselves. I thought it followed the sci-fi rules of time travel perfectly.

Also has anyone noticed the way the 6 glass squares in the Tardis are now clear where as I was sure a few of them were black or dark?

GSPfan

iguana wrote: »

What? Flying a Pandorica, which can just suddenly be flown from the inside (Deus Ex Machina 1) into an exploding TARDIS which is exploding everywhen in the universe (Deus Ex Machina 2) will cause a big bang (Deus Ex Machina 3) and start the same universe all over again because a few fleck of the old universe fell in it (Deus Ex Machina 4). Worst of all, once a-bloody-gain, everybody lives, even people we didn't even know were alive in the first place.:mad: At the end of The Doctor Dances we were told that 'just this once, everybody lives.' It was once off, it was special, but over and over again Moffat has had everybody live.

This time he erased the universe where people had died, so this time around anyone who was killed all series as a result of the crack has been restored. The vampire fish? Their planet is still there, the black girl they killed, free to live her life out, her dad who sacrificed himself, never happened. The woman who was killed by prisoner zero in The Eleventh Hour, chuckling at Amy's dad's speech shenanigans.:rolleyes: Christ RTD had some major flaws but at least most of the dead stayed dead. Pretty much the only thing I admired about the episode Rose was that the dead stayed dead. The Doctor obsessed but obviously loving father and husband gets killed in the shopping centre and there was never any reset, something which continued throughout the series. It was why the end of The Doctor Dances was so special. If death can be reversed it cheapens it.



Exactly, I had a strong fear since the whole jacket off, jacket on, jacket off scenario in Flesh and Stone that we were seeing the doctor from the finale at times throughout the series. I really hoped I was wrong as it's a joke. It was the point of the Bill and Ted finale, there is no plot tension if it's possible for the hero to make a note to self to go back in time later and ensure a means to get through any current difficulty. It worked in Bill and Ted because it was a self-knowing comedy. Using a 21 year old joke as a series long plot device is infinitely more childish than fart jokes.

For Fook Sake. :mad:

Pittens

Exactly, I had a strong fear since the whole jacket off, jacket on, jacket off scenario in Flesh and Stone that we were seeing the doctor from the finale at times throughout the series. I really hoped I was wrong as it's a joke.

Lol. It is a brilliant idea to use - in a story about time travel - that kind of mechanism. Surprised it hasnt been done before in Dr. Who.

iguana

GSPfan wrote: »

For Fook Sake. :mad:

Got a point?

When I don't like something I think about why I don't like it and articulate my feelings. The series was very flawed and the finale suffered from all of the same flaws RTD's did without having any consequences whatsoever.

BuffyBot

Best series finale since it returned. Well crafted, very well acted - if a little the story was a little fast and loose in places. Still a vast improvement over the RTD finales.

GSPfan

iguana wrote: »

Got a point?

When I don't like something I think about why I don't like it and articulate my feelings. The series was very flawed and the finale suffered from all of the same flaws RTD's did without having any consequences whatsoever.

Are you the Eamon Dunphy of the Doctor Who thread? It's just one bitter comment after another. You're entitled to your opinion no matter how wrong it is. For someone who is so over the top in her criticism the next logical step would be to stop watching. Yet you don't.

iguana

Pittens wrote: »

Lol. It is a brilliant idea to use - in a story about time travel - that kind of mechanism. Surprised it hasnt been done before in Dr. Who.

Except it's not brilliant, it's an immediate death to any tension. It gives him a type of omnipotence which means that he will never face any challenges and if there are no challenges there are no stories. Watching an episode where he faces a bad guy who is about to destroy the earth and thinks; well after I get through this I'll pop back in time and smack that bad guy over the head from behind. Then the bad guy falls down unconscious. Then he steps over the unconscious villian, switches off their earth destroying machine and turns them over to the relevant authorities, gets in the TARDIS goes back to the initial worrying moment whacks the villain over the head and spends the next 43 minutes scratching himself makes for crappy tv.

Of course that's what a time traveller can do, but if they do it there is no point in the series. The 'not crossing your own timeline' rule is arbitrary, but if you don't have it there is no story.

K-9

anotherlostie wrote: »

Loved it - Amelia meeting Amy was real WTF stuff. Matt Smith's speech to Amy before he left was outstanding, no gnashing of teeth and wailing needed to get across how he felt.

He was superb in that. I think it's the defining moment for him, where he makes the role his own.

Pittens

Watching an episode where he faces a bad guy who is about to destroy the earth and thinks; well after I get through this I'll pop back in time and smack that bad guy over the head from behind. Then the bad guy falls down unconscious. Then he steps over the unconscious villian, switches off their earth destroying machine and turns them over to the relevant authorities, gets in the TARDIS goes back to the initial worrying moment whacks the villain over the head and spends the next 43 minutes scratching himself makes for crappy tv.

Were you watching the same program. When did that happen?

Obviously if the Doctor gets killed in any way he cant rely on future him. However imprisioning him wont work.

( The real deux ex machina was the sonic opening the Pandorica but nobody ever notices that)

The going back in time to a previous episode to a scene we have already seen, and one which most people didn't notice the difference is a great plot device in a program about time travelling.

pixelburp

iguana wrote: »

Christ RTD had some major flaws but at least most of the dead stayed dead.

Not to look like I'm picking on one particular thing you siad, but, just off the top of my head:
The Master, Rose, Her Dad, The Daleks (technically they died halfway through series 1), Kylie Minogue, to name a few.

At least Moffat's trying put some internal logic on things, not arbitrarily introduce resurrection potions and the like.

iguana

GSPfan wrote: »

Are you the Eamon Dunphy of the Doctor Who thread? It's just one bitter comment after another. You're entitled to your opinion no matter how wrong it is. For someone who is so over the top in her criticism the next logical step would be to stop watching. Yet you don't.

Do you know what bitter means, because you are using it in the wrong context. Your post is sort of bitter, mine is disappointed. And I might stop watching it after this series, but my husband has always watched Doctor Who, whether it's good or bad, and it's something we watch together.

GSPfan

iguana wrote: »

Do you know what bitter means, because you are using it in the wrong context. Your post is sort of bitter, mine is disappointed. And I might stop watching it after this series, but my husband has always watched Doctor Who, whether it's good or bad, and it's something we watch together.

Doubt you will. You've an axe to grind with this series/writer for some reason so you'll be sticking the boot in for a long time yet I bet.

iguana

pixelburp wrote: »

The Master, Rose, Her Dad, The Daleks (technically they died halfway through series 1), Kylie Minogue, to name a few.

Kylie Minogue stayed dead, he tried to save her but couldn't. Did Rose die? I don't remember that. The Daleks and Master coming back is true and I could never understand why he decided to kill them all from the start and then continually keep bringing them back. But them coming back to life wasn't ever done as a lovely happy ending, which is how Moffat has been doing it.

Her dad being alive in an alternate universe doesn't count as resurrection, however sending Jackie off to live with him and letting them have a baby certainly does, as does Jack's resurrection which is why I said most of the dead, not all of them.

pixelburp

iguana wrote: »

Except it's not brilliant, it's an immediate death to any tension. It gives him a type of omnipotence which means that he will never face any challenges and if there are no challenges there are no stories. Watching an episode where he faces a bad guy who is about to destroy the earth and thinks; well after I get through this I'll pop back in time and smack that bad guy over the head from behind. Then the bad guy falls down unconscious. Then he steps over the unconscious villian, switches off their earth destroying machine and turns them over to the relevant authorities, gets in the TARDIS goes back to the initial worrying moment whacks the villain over the head and spends the next 43 minutes scratching himself makes for crappy tv.

But obviously that's not going to happen anytime in the near future, so why get annoyed about it? I mean to be honest, the nature of Dr. Who is that no matter what the cliffhanger is, the resolution will always seem like a cop-out in many ways; because the nature of the danger - something impossibly sciFi - will itself require an impossibly sciFi resolution. So if you're the cynical dismissive type, the resolution wil always disappoint. "Get out of that one!" you'll cry, and then they do, but oh that was just silly. Well so was the problem in the first place!

Quite clearly not every climax will involve the doctor popping up from the future and solving everything, that should be obvious, but the nature of the threat (the Doctor locked up forever and ever, and the TARDIS exploding) required some creative resolution that worked within the show's internal logic - such as it is.

iguana wrote: »

Kylie Minogue stayed dead, he tried to save her but couldn't. Did Rose die? I don't remember that. The Daleks and Master coming back is true and I could never understand why he decided to kill them all from the start and then continually keep bringing them back. But them coming back to life wasn't ever done as a lovely happy ending, which is how Moffat has been doing it.

Her dad being alive in an alternate universe doesn't count as resurrection, however sending Jackie off to live with him and letting them have a baby certainly does, as does Jack's resurrection which is why I said most of the dead, not all of them.

No, Kylie lived on as fairy dust or some such twaddle. Ok, Rose didn't "die" per se, but she was most definitely written out of the series when the universes supposedly closed off forever-and-ever-and ev... oh wait she's back.

Her Dad counts for the same reasons - a parallel version is lazy, especially when it turned out he was the exact same person (traditionally your alternate universe persona is a different side to the same coin).

We're not going to get into a pedantic argument but so far RTD has been far more guilty of letting primary characters come back from the dead, completely arbitrarily, against Moffat who made it part of the central mystery - ie, Rory.

BlitzKrieg

Exactly, I had a strong fear since the whole jacket off, jacket on, jacket off scenario in Flesh and Stone that we were seeing the doctor from the finale at times throughout the series. I really hoped I was wrong as it's a joke. It was the point of the Bill and Ted finale, there is no plot tension if it's possible for the hero to make a note to self to go back in time later and ensure a means to get through any current difficulty.

except at this point the doctor had lost control over time. The Doctor had the Bill & ted power for the opening of the episode when the universe had collapsed and earth was surviving off the burning tardis. But once the universe had been restored, he was no longer jumping through his own timeline at will (and is not able to do so, something which has been stressed as a rare and dangerous action) but being forced backwards through his own timeline back wiping himself out of existence. And he couldnt control it beyond stepping through a crack wiping himself out of existence.

The problem with the sequence is it is a disapointingly short part of the episode, which should have been bigger to emphasize the dileama. The doctor was running out of time, only Amy could hear, but cant see him and she wont listen when she cant see him. How then to get through to her. also discussing the scene in question numerous times prior to the episode sort of spoilered it and deflated the *aww* gotcha! moment.

What? Flying a Pandorica, which can just suddenly be flown from the inside (Deus Ex Machina 1) into an exploding TARDIS which is exploding everywhen in the universe (Deus Ex Machina 2) will cause a big bang (Deus Ex Machina 3) and start the same universe all over again because a few fleck of the old universe fell in it (Deus Ex Machina 4).

A deus ex machina (pronounced /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiː.əs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/,[1], DAY-əs eks MAH-kee-nə) (Latin for "god from the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object.

so very quickly

What? Flying a Pandorica, which can just suddenly be flown from the inside (Deus Ex Machina 1)

using the temporal wrist device that has been in the series since season 1 of the reboot and is used repeatable prior in the episode (much to your annoyance) not only time but also to the same location the pandorica is taken earlier in the same episode again (to rescue river)

so not a deux ex machina

into an exploding TARDIS which is exploding everywhen in the universe (Deus Ex Machina 2)

yeah thats been coming since this season started. Remember those cracks we saw every episode? Yeah thats the universe exploding and we learned quite a few episodes back that it will be the tardis.

will cause a big bang (Deus Ex Machina 3) and start the same universe all over again because a few fleck of the old universe fell in it (Deus Ex Machina 4).

Again running off ideas already established in this episode twice. Firstly its the same process that brought amy back to life and secondly it brought the dalek back to life and its combined with the problem of the tardis cracks to create a solution.

et tu deus ex machina?

iguana

GSPfan wrote: »

You've an axe to grind with this series/writer for some reason

Nope, I think Moffat is a really great writer, as I said in the other thread many of my favourite episodes are his. I was really excited to see him taking the helm. RTD can write some excellent episodes, Midnight and Turn Left, but with the exception of Children of Earth he doesn't hang it all together very well in a series. I was hoping that Moffat's series would rectify that but I haven't liked this series, his weakest elements have been at the fore and I've seen little evidence of the things I love about his previous work.

I don't mind Smith as the Doctor, he's at least as good as Tennant. And I don't think he'll get as bored as I think Tennant did toward the end. I do really hate Amy, she's such a horrible person. Amelia is great, if she was the companion I'd almost dig that. But she grew up into such a shouty little cow who doesn't deserve Rory at all.