Series 5, Episode 13 - " The Big Bang "

Mr E

Dude, its a time travelling doctor who isn't really a doctor travelling across time and space in a blue police box thats small on the outside and big on the inside, dealing robotic dustbins and other such creations on a weekly basis, opening, closing, fixing things with a screwdriver which isn't really a screwdriver, and always, somehow, manages to save the day ....

Go with the flow... don't overthink it.

Raedwald

phil1nj wrote: »

So he travelled back in time to tell Rory to open the Padorica (check), Rory then opened the Padorica to let him out (check). This was possible because Rory had already opened the Padorica in teh future (check) ...head expolodes!!!!!

Sorry, still sounds like a major cop out to me (and over simplistic to boot).

The fact that he could do something because his future self had already done it, is a well used idea in many films and books that feature time travel.

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban springs to mind.

Its basically used as a ploy by writers to get out of a situation that has the potential to get overly complicated or if in this case they want to save a scene showing how he does get out in his past/present.

phil1nj

Sorry, expected better from the writers. If someone from the future is going to tell someone in the (realtive) past to arrange a few bits and pieces to help them get out of a sticky situation then the chain of events that lead to that future had better add up - otherwise the plot line is better suited to a Bill and Ted movie or an episode of Red Dwarf where time travel was used for comic effect.

Time Travelling basket cases don't get a pass just becuase it suits them to concoct a handy time paradox to explain away sloppy story telling.

pixelburp

phil1nj wrote: »

Sorry, expected better from the writers. If someone from the future is going to tell someone in the (realtive) past to arrange a few bits and pieces to help them get out of a sticky situation then the chain of events that lead to that future had better add up - otherwise the plot line is better suited to a Bill and Ted movie or an episode of Red Dwarf where time travel was used for comic effect.

Time Travelling basket cases don't get a pass just becuase it suits them to concoct a handy time paradox to explain away sloppy story telling.

How would you have ended it then? Fair question if you think it's over simplistic (not something I've often heard people call time travel plots, but there you go)...

phil1nj

Raedwald wrote: »

The fact that he could do something because his future self had already done it, is a well used idea in many films and books that feature time travel.

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban springs to mind.

Its basically used as a ploy by writers to get out of a situation that has the potential to get overly complicated or if in this case they want to save a scene showing how he does get out in his past/present.

I don't remember the characters from Harry Potter being locked in an inescapable prison unable to communicate with anyone on the outside for all eternity....but I take your point.

Raedwald

Well then you have very high standards that wont ever be satisfied by the writers of this show. Due to the fact that it is not meant to be deadly serious and aimed solely at adults but light hearted and fun aimed at all generations, so take it with a pinch of salt and enjoy it for what it is.

phil1nj

pixelburp wrote: »

How would you have ended it then? Fair question if you think it's over simplistic (not something I've often heard people call time travel plots, but there you go)...

We still had River Song on the Tardis (which was exploding, fair enough) but she had the ultimate piece of time travel hardware at her disposal (and there was a vortex manipulator lying around somewhere as well), a bit of creative writing and a few fresh ideas might have come up with a better way to end it (and still keep all of the other stuff that people seem to enjoy about this episode). Anyway, I'm not being paid to write this stuff, teh BBC writers are and obviously they know best.

pixelburp

phil1nj wrote: »

We still had River Song on the Tardis (which was exploding, fair enough) but she had the ultimate piece of time travel hardware at her disposal (and there was a vortex manipulator lying around somewhere as well), a bit of creative writing and a few fresh ideas might have come up with a better way to end it (and still keep all of the other stuff that people seem to enjoy about this episode). Anyway, I'm not being paid to write this stuff, teh BBC writers are and obviously they know best.

So you're idea of creative writing involves the classic "with one bound he was free" mechanic of using the TARDIS to rescue the Doctor. That's as bad as the sonic screwdriver's overused. No offence mate, but that's so Deus Ex Machina, I'm pretty sure it fits the textbook definition & is a thousand times lazier and hacky than a cheeky time-travel based resolution. Are you RTD in disguise?

Raedwald

phil1nj wrote: »

I don't remember the characters from Harry Potter being locked in an inescapable prison unable to communicate with anyone on the outside for all eternity....but I take your point.

No scene in the book, harry could get rid of the dementors (sp) in his present because he had seen his future self get rid of them in his past.

Very bad explanation that i know.

phil1nj

pixelburp wrote: »

So you're idea of creative writing involves the classic "with one bound he was free" mechanic of using the TARDIS to rescue the Doctor. That's as bad as the sonic screwdriver's overused. No offence mate, but that's so Deus Ex Machina, I'm pretty sure it fits the textbook definition & is a thousand times lazier and hacky than a cheeky time-travel based resolution. Are you RTD in disguise?

No I'm not RTD (honest). But the last time there was a paradox used in DW it involved the Master turing the TARDIS in to a paradox machine to allow him to create the paradox. This time however it "just" happened because the Doctor said so.

Pfft, I'm off to watch repeats of Series 4 on Watch.........

Penn

Just rewatching it now. When the Tardis came back and Rory says "How did we forget the Doctor?" Could anyone else hear him say "I was plastic" to Amy's mother as Amy was climbing over the table?

Pittens

Time Travelling basket cases don't get a pass just becuase it suits them to concoct a handy time paradox to explain away sloppy story telling.

Paradox's like this are the best kind of time travel writing. Did you like blink? Care to tell me how the Doctor had the script he was reading. Sally sparrow wrote it, you say? He read it, you say? But she wrote it because he read it to her from the script she wrote which he read which she.... etc.

I haven't read a review of Blink which made this case. Look, if you dont like these paradoxes then you should not watch the show. All that time travel paradoxes have to be is consistent within their own logic. So having been released from the Pandorica with help from his future self, all that remained was for his future self to go back wearing the same kind of outfit. That had to happen. That was handled really well. He realised he lost the sonic screwdriver and then went back ( to something we had already seen), and then it materialised in Amy's pocket.

if you dont like that kinda thing this is the wrong show for you.

Pittens

My favourite bit, ( rewatching) - Amelia is on the stairs and her Aunt is talking about that "star cult" and how she didnt trust the leader "Richard Dawkins"

nicowa

Pittens wrote: »

That had to happen. That was handled really well. He realised he lost the sonic screwdriver and then went back ( to something we had already seen), and then it materialised in Amy's pocket

Actually - well, the way I think about it anyway - he realised he hadn't made sure that he wouldn't lose the sonic screwdriver. If he had checked first the screwdriver *might* not have been there. We'll never know. Maybe Rory would have thought of it on his own. But by going back in time like that, he was making sure that it would be there.

Being honest, the way I've always decided I'd use time travel would be to spend the entire time saying, "look, I'm just going to turn around, so that my future self can fix this and then tell me how I fixed it so that I can come back in time and fix it".

Which is basically what happened in the Red Nose Day Special (feel free to correct me on the name) when the two Doctors met and the two TARDIS'es became one and Ten was able to fix the TARDIS cos he remembered that he was able to fix it.

And that was RTD.

Which is basically what happened here...

Daemos

nicowa wrote: »

Which is basically what happened in the Red Nose Day Special (feel free to correct me on the name) when the two Doctors met and the two TARDIS'es became one and Ten was able to fix the TARDIS cos he remembered that he was able to fix it.

And that was RTD.

Which is basically what happened here...

It was called Time Crash, but it wasn't written by RTD, it was Moffat again

BaconZombie

Look like the webpage I quote in the first post was just somebody Trolling.......

BlitzKrieg

it's an episode that sort of sums of everything I liked and disliked of the RTD era so much and gave me what I wanted...yet I didnt want it.


I mentioned in the *am i the only one who hates the new series* thread that the major difference between the two series was how the doctor was written and the plots generally reflect the type of doctor we have. Hence under RTD it was always bigger, shinier and louder, while Moffet had with exception to the first episode toned it all down alot more so the doctor was not so big but much more cunning. Less the word of God and more the word of reason.

And this whole episode personified that...and it was good. The doctor not making large grand gestures but instead manipulating in small amounts bit by bit, piece by piece. So even though we get the somewhat cringeworthy bit near the end, unlike say series 3 (where the vast majority of this happened off screen without explanation and with no real development) here we saw a notion get pushed through the whole episode (and I guess even the series) that delivers in the end.

And thats all good.


But there is a bad side to this good. RTD's finales really do make for a definite *bang* END! for each series. Especially the tennant ones. They were satisfying because everything builds to these episodes and you get the climatic final showdown with the big baddie of the series, be it daleks, the master or torchwood. There is a somewhat basic joyful satisfaction in seeing the doctor triumphant over what is essentially a big final boss to a 13 level video game. And then FULL STOP. New series, it all gets somewhat reset and we start a new series somewhat fresh with the prior series only having small effects on the new series and we start building to another big finale.

It was expected. Look at that last thread, people talked about who the big baddie was going to be more then anything else and in the end there was none.

And more importantly the series has made it clear that plot from the finale will run into the next series, things are not resolved and more revelations are to come.


I like this, I miss the big finale, but I like the long stretching story arc and its what I was saying Moffet has over RTD, he write Who with legs, he can stretch an arc over more then one series. RTD tended to burn plot threads out a bit too quickly.


So it was what I wanted, but I do feel somewhat annoyed that I got to wait a year now for the next series to get perhaps closure.


It also means if it is the valeyard/dreamlord then I will be satisfied as I was saying if they'd used him for this finale after so recently reintroducing him it would have been a waste...but playing it out over 2 series...now that is ample room for character development.

BlitzKrieg

phil1nj wrote: »

So he travelled back in time to tell Rory to open the Padorica (check), Rory then opened the Padorica to let him out (check). This was possible because Rory had already opened the Padorica in teh future (check) ...head expolodes!!!!!

Sorry, still sounds like a major cop out to me (and over simplistic to boot).

Such a cop out that James Cameron made millions using the same logic for the terminator films

angelll

Oh i loved it! Cried over rory's story,am delighted he's no longer plastic! It was really really good...and this is from someone who disliked the first half of the series. It's gotten so much better,loved it...and the fez . One question though? If the doctor was erased from time and only amy remembering him would bring him back...how come river song remembered him? And dropped amy the empty notebook,thus ensuring she would remember him and bring him back to life? Oh and according to imdb the voice in the tardis was *big spoiler*

Omega

.

Daemos

Now for the part I hate most about Doctor Who: waiting for it to come back

Pittens

.how come river song remembered him?

The river story is the weird one in this. We dont even know where she was from. 20th and 21st century Earth apparantly.

Also, this is clearly a reboot, right? I mean the Doctor has his memories but nothing of his memories ever happened - Rose is walking around on Earth unharmed.

anotherlostie

Loved it - Amelia meeting Amy was real WTF stuff. Matt Smith's speech to Amy before he left was outstanding, no gnashing of teeth and wailing needed to get across how he felt.

And I hope that Rory's continued journeys mean he'll be a regular companion next year - a 2 companion dynamic would be great (not to mention River Song will inevitably have to appear at intervals to progress the story).

nicowa

DaPoolRulz wrote: »

It was called Time Crash, but it wasn't written by RTD, it was Moffat again

Apologies... possibly my point is no longer as valid... da*n.

angelll wrote: »

One question though? If the doctor was erased from time and only amy remembering him would bring him back...how come river song remembered him? And dropped amy the empty notebook,thus ensuring she would remember him and bring him back to life?

Well, I'd say she obviously comes from the future. So she could have as much time as she wanted to remember him in and could simply come back to that time to remind Amy. And in plot terms, the Doctor knew Amy better so she was more connected to the version of him that got lost.

Pittens wrote: »

Also, this is clearly a reboot, right? I mean the Doctor has his memories but nothing of his memories ever happened - Rose is walking around on Earth unharmed.

Probably not. The writing was back in the book. And I know that's not an exact science....

iguana

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

Absolutely brilliant. No big Deus Ex Machina.

What? Flying a Pandorica, which can just suddenly be flown from the inside (Deus Ex Machina 1) into an exploding TARDIS which is exploding everywhen in the universe (Deus Ex Machina 2) will cause a big bang (Deus Ex Machina 3) and start the same universe all over again because a few fleck of the old universe fell in it (Deus Ex Machina 4). Worst of all, once a-bloody-gain, everybody lives, even people we didn't even know were alive in the first place.:mad: At the end of The Doctor Dances we were told that 'just this once, everybody lives.' It was once off, it was special, but over and over again Moffat has had everybody live.

This time he erased the universe where people had died, so this time around anyone who was killed all series as a result of the crack has been restored. The vampire fish? Their planet is still there, the black girl they killed, free to live her life out, her dad who sacrificed himself, never happened. The woman who was killed by prisoner zero in The Eleventh Hour, chuckling at Amy's dad's speech shenanigans.:rolleyes: Christ RTD had some major flaws but at least most of the dead stayed dead. Pretty much the only thing I admired about the episode Rose was that the dead stayed dead. The Doctor obsessed but obviously loving father and husband gets killed in the shopping centre and there was never any reset, something which continued throughout the series. It was why the end of The Doctor Dances was so special. If death can be reversed it cheapens it.

phil1nj wrote: »

otherwise the plot line is better suited to a Bill and Ted movie or an episode of Red Dwarf where time travel was used for comic effect.

Exactly, I had a strong fear since the whole jacket off, jacket on, jacket off scenario in Flesh and Stone that we were seeing the doctor from the finale at times throughout the series. I really hoped I was wrong as it's a joke. It was the point of the Bill and Ted finale, there is no plot tension if it's possible for the hero to make a note to self to go back in time later and ensure a means to get through any current difficulty. It worked in Bill and Ted because it was a self-knowing comedy. Using a 21 year old joke as a series long plot device is infinitely more childish than fart jokes.

GSPfan

Pittens wrote: »

Also, this is clearly a reboot, right? I mean the Doctor has his memories but nothing of his memories ever happened - Rose is walking around on Earth unharmed.

No no no no no. He didn't exist right up until Amy remembered him. So when she remembered him he now existed and has always existed. So everything he has done and is doing has always happened.

It annoys me that any of you are trying to pick holes in this episode. Why do you want to ruin it for yourselves. I thought it followed the sci-fi rules of time travel perfectly.

Also has anyone noticed the way the 6 glass squares in the Tardis are now clear where as I was sure a few of them were black or dark?

GSPfan

iguana wrote: »

What? Flying a Pandorica, which can just suddenly be flown from the inside (Deus Ex Machina 1) into an exploding TARDIS which is exploding everywhen in the universe (Deus Ex Machina 2) will cause a big bang (Deus Ex Machina 3) and start the same universe all over again because a few fleck of the old universe fell in it (Deus Ex Machina 4). Worst of all, once a-bloody-gain, everybody lives, even people we didn't even know were alive in the first place.:mad: At the end of The Doctor Dances we were told that 'just this once, everybody lives.' It was once off, it was special, but over and over again Moffat has had everybody live.

This time he erased the universe where people had died, so this time around anyone who was killed all series as a result of the crack has been restored. The vampire fish? Their planet is still there, the black girl they killed, free to live her life out, her dad who sacrificed himself, never happened. The woman who was killed by prisoner zero in The Eleventh Hour, chuckling at Amy's dad's speech shenanigans.:rolleyes: Christ RTD had some major flaws but at least most of the dead stayed dead. Pretty much the only thing I admired about the episode Rose was that the dead stayed dead. The Doctor obsessed but obviously loving father and husband gets killed in the shopping centre and there was never any reset, something which continued throughout the series. It was why the end of The Doctor Dances was so special. If death can be reversed it cheapens it.



Exactly, I had a strong fear since the whole jacket off, jacket on, jacket off scenario in Flesh and Stone that we were seeing the doctor from the finale at times throughout the series. I really hoped I was wrong as it's a joke. It was the point of the Bill and Ted finale, there is no plot tension if it's possible for the hero to make a note to self to go back in time later and ensure a means to get through any current difficulty. It worked in Bill and Ted because it was a self-knowing comedy. Using a 21 year old joke as a series long plot device is infinitely more childish than fart jokes.

For Fook Sake. :mad:

Pittens

Exactly, I had a strong fear since the whole jacket off, jacket on, jacket off scenario in Flesh and Stone that we were seeing the doctor from the finale at times throughout the series. I really hoped I was wrong as it's a joke.

Lol. It is a brilliant idea to use - in a story about time travel - that kind of mechanism. Surprised it hasnt been done before in Dr. Who.

iguana

GSPfan wrote: »

For Fook Sake. :mad:

Got a point?

When I don't like something I think about why I don't like it and articulate my feelings. The series was very flawed and the finale suffered from all of the same flaws RTD's did without having any consequences whatsoever.

BuffyBot

Best series finale since it returned. Well crafted, very well acted - if a little the story was a little fast and loose in places. Still a vast improvement over the RTD finales.

GSPfan

iguana wrote: »

Got a point?

When I don't like something I think about why I don't like it and articulate my feelings. The series was very flawed and the finale suffered from all of the same flaws RTD's did without having any consequences whatsoever.

Are you the Eamon Dunphy of the Doctor Who thread? It's just one bitter comment after another. You're entitled to your opinion no matter how wrong it is. For someone who is so over the top in her criticism the next logical step would be to stop watching. Yet you don't.