Series 5, Episode 13 - " The Big Bang "

iguana

Pittens wrote: »

Lol. It is a brilliant idea to use - in a story about time travel - that kind of mechanism. Surprised it hasnt been done before in Dr. Who.

Except it's not brilliant, it's an immediate death to any tension. It gives him a type of omnipotence which means that he will never face any challenges and if there are no challenges there are no stories. Watching an episode where he faces a bad guy who is about to destroy the earth and thinks; well after I get through this I'll pop back in time and smack that bad guy over the head from behind. Then the bad guy falls down unconscious. Then he steps over the unconscious villian, switches off their earth destroying machine and turns them over to the relevant authorities, gets in the TARDIS goes back to the initial worrying moment whacks the villain over the head and spends the next 43 minutes scratching himself makes for crappy tv.

Of course that's what a time traveller can do, but if they do it there is no point in the series. The 'not crossing your own timeline' rule is arbitrary, but if you don't have it there is no story.

K-9

anotherlostie wrote: »

Loved it - Amelia meeting Amy was real WTF stuff. Matt Smith's speech to Amy before he left was outstanding, no gnashing of teeth and wailing needed to get across how he felt.

He was superb in that. I think it's the defining moment for him, where he makes the role his own.

Pittens

Watching an episode where he faces a bad guy who is about to destroy the earth and thinks; well after I get through this I'll pop back in time and smack that bad guy over the head from behind. Then the bad guy falls down unconscious. Then he steps over the unconscious villian, switches off their earth destroying machine and turns them over to the relevant authorities, gets in the TARDIS goes back to the initial worrying moment whacks the villain over the head and spends the next 43 minutes scratching himself makes for crappy tv.

Were you watching the same program. When did that happen?

Obviously if the Doctor gets killed in any way he cant rely on future him. However imprisioning him wont work.

( The real deux ex machina was the sonic opening the Pandorica but nobody ever notices that)

The going back in time to a previous episode to a scene we have already seen, and one which most people didn't notice the difference is a great plot device in a program about time travelling.

pixelburp

iguana wrote: »

Christ RTD had some major flaws but at least most of the dead stayed dead.

Not to look like I'm picking on one particular thing you siad, but, just off the top of my head:
The Master, Rose, Her Dad, The Daleks (technically they died halfway through series 1), Kylie Minogue, to name a few.

At least Moffat's trying put some internal logic on things, not arbitrarily introduce resurrection potions and the like.

iguana

GSPfan wrote: »

Are you the Eamon Dunphy of the Doctor Who thread? It's just one bitter comment after another. You're entitled to your opinion no matter how wrong it is. For someone who is so over the top in her criticism the next logical step would be to stop watching. Yet you don't.

Do you know what bitter means, because you are using it in the wrong context. Your post is sort of bitter, mine is disappointed. And I might stop watching it after this series, but my husband has always watched Doctor Who, whether it's good or bad, and it's something we watch together.

GSPfan

iguana wrote: »

Do you know what bitter means, because you are using it in the wrong context. Your post is sort of bitter, mine is disappointed. And I might stop watching it after this series, but my husband has always watched Doctor Who, whether it's good or bad, and it's something we watch together.

Doubt you will. You've an axe to grind with this series/writer for some reason so you'll be sticking the boot in for a long time yet I bet.

iguana

pixelburp wrote: »

The Master, Rose, Her Dad, The Daleks (technically they died halfway through series 1), Kylie Minogue, to name a few.

Kylie Minogue stayed dead, he tried to save her but couldn't. Did Rose die? I don't remember that. The Daleks and Master coming back is true and I could never understand why he decided to kill them all from the start and then continually keep bringing them back. But them coming back to life wasn't ever done as a lovely happy ending, which is how Moffat has been doing it.

Her dad being alive in an alternate universe doesn't count as resurrection, however sending Jackie off to live with him and letting them have a baby certainly does, as does Jack's resurrection which is why I said most of the dead, not all of them.

pixelburp

iguana wrote: »

Except it's not brilliant, it's an immediate death to any tension. It gives him a type of omnipotence which means that he will never face any challenges and if there are no challenges there are no stories. Watching an episode where he faces a bad guy who is about to destroy the earth and thinks; well after I get through this I'll pop back in time and smack that bad guy over the head from behind. Then the bad guy falls down unconscious. Then he steps over the unconscious villian, switches off their earth destroying machine and turns them over to the relevant authorities, gets in the TARDIS goes back to the initial worrying moment whacks the villain over the head and spends the next 43 minutes scratching himself makes for crappy tv.

But obviously that's not going to happen anytime in the near future, so why get annoyed about it? I mean to be honest, the nature of Dr. Who is that no matter what the cliffhanger is, the resolution will always seem like a cop-out in many ways; because the nature of the danger - something impossibly sciFi - will itself require an impossibly sciFi resolution. So if you're the cynical dismissive type, the resolution wil always disappoint. "Get out of that one!" you'll cry, and then they do, but oh that was just silly. Well so was the problem in the first place!

Quite clearly not every climax will involve the doctor popping up from the future and solving everything, that should be obvious, but the nature of the threat (the Doctor locked up forever and ever, and the TARDIS exploding) required some creative resolution that worked within the show's internal logic - such as it is.

iguana wrote: »

Kylie Minogue stayed dead, he tried to save her but couldn't. Did Rose die? I don't remember that. The Daleks and Master coming back is true and I could never understand why he decided to kill them all from the start and then continually keep bringing them back. But them coming back to life wasn't ever done as a lovely happy ending, which is how Moffat has been doing it.

Her dad being alive in an alternate universe doesn't count as resurrection, however sending Jackie off to live with him and letting them have a baby certainly does, as does Jack's resurrection which is why I said most of the dead, not all of them.

No, Kylie lived on as fairy dust or some such twaddle. Ok, Rose didn't "die" per se, but she was most definitely written out of the series when the universes supposedly closed off forever-and-ever-and ev... oh wait she's back.

Her Dad counts for the same reasons - a parallel version is lazy, especially when it turned out he was the exact same person (traditionally your alternate universe persona is a different side to the same coin).

We're not going to get into a pedantic argument but so far RTD has been far more guilty of letting primary characters come back from the dead, completely arbitrarily, against Moffat who made it part of the central mystery - ie, Rory.

BlitzKrieg

Exactly, I had a strong fear since the whole jacket off, jacket on, jacket off scenario in Flesh and Stone that we were seeing the doctor from the finale at times throughout the series. I really hoped I was wrong as it's a joke. It was the point of the Bill and Ted finale, there is no plot tension if it's possible for the hero to make a note to self to go back in time later and ensure a means to get through any current difficulty.

except at this point the doctor had lost control over time. The Doctor had the Bill & ted power for the opening of the episode when the universe had collapsed and earth was surviving off the burning tardis. But once the universe had been restored, he was no longer jumping through his own timeline at will (and is not able to do so, something which has been stressed as a rare and dangerous action) but being forced backwards through his own timeline back wiping himself out of existence. And he couldnt control it beyond stepping through a crack wiping himself out of existence.

The problem with the sequence is it is a disapointingly short part of the episode, which should have been bigger to emphasize the dileama. The doctor was running out of time, only Amy could hear, but cant see him and she wont listen when she cant see him. How then to get through to her. also discussing the scene in question numerous times prior to the episode sort of spoilered it and deflated the *aww* gotcha! moment.

What? Flying a Pandorica, which can just suddenly be flown from the inside (Deus Ex Machina 1) into an exploding TARDIS which is exploding everywhen in the universe (Deus Ex Machina 2) will cause a big bang (Deus Ex Machina 3) and start the same universe all over again because a few fleck of the old universe fell in it (Deus Ex Machina 4).

A deus ex machina (pronounced /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiː.əs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/,[1], DAY-əs eks MAH-kee-nə) (Latin for "god from the machine"; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object.

so very quickly

What? Flying a Pandorica, which can just suddenly be flown from the inside (Deus Ex Machina 1)

using the temporal wrist device that has been in the series since season 1 of the reboot and is used repeatable prior in the episode (much to your annoyance) not only time but also to the same location the pandorica is taken earlier in the same episode again (to rescue river)

so not a deux ex machina

into an exploding TARDIS which is exploding everywhen in the universe (Deus Ex Machina 2)

yeah thats been coming since this season started. Remember those cracks we saw every episode? Yeah thats the universe exploding and we learned quite a few episodes back that it will be the tardis.

will cause a big bang (Deus Ex Machina 3) and start the same universe all over again because a few fleck of the old universe fell in it (Deus Ex Machina 4).

Again running off ideas already established in this episode twice. Firstly its the same process that brought amy back to life and secondly it brought the dalek back to life and its combined with the problem of the tardis cracks to create a solution.

et tu deus ex machina?

iguana

GSPfan wrote: »

You've an axe to grind with this series/writer for some reason

Nope, I think Moffat is a really great writer, as I said in the other thread many of my favourite episodes are his. I was really excited to see him taking the helm. RTD can write some excellent episodes, Midnight and Turn Left, but with the exception of Children of Earth he doesn't hang it all together very well in a series. I was hoping that Moffat's series would rectify that but I haven't liked this series, his weakest elements have been at the fore and I've seen little evidence of the things I love about his previous work.

I don't mind Smith as the Doctor, he's at least as good as Tennant. And I don't think he'll get as bored as I think Tennant did toward the end. I do really hate Amy, she's such a horrible person. Amelia is great, if she was the companion I'd almost dig that. But she grew up into such a shouty little cow who doesn't deserve Rory at all.

Penn

iguana wrote: »

What? Flying a Pandorica, which can just suddenly be flown from the inside (Deus Ex Machina 1) into an exploding TARDIS which is exploding everywhen in the universe (Deus Ex Machina 2) will cause a big bang (Deus Ex Machina 3) and start the same universe all over again because a few fleck of the old universe fell in it (Deus Ex Machina 4). Worst of all, once a-bloody-gain, everybody lives, even people we didn't even know were alive in the first place.:mad:

I suppose this is where it gets difficult to define the boundaries between science fiction and Deus Ex Machina. Lets face it, there's stuff like that in nearly every episode of DW.

But like I said, in previous finales, Rose absorbed the Time Vortex, spread the letters BADWOLF around the universe, and destroyed half a million Daleks by moving her hand.

A parallel world, one which was closed off, opened again and people from there came in to save everyone, only to be closed off again when everything was done.

The Doctor linked into a psychic network, and millions of people shouting the Doctor's name at the same time allowed the Doctor to fly, rewind the way he was aged, deflect The Master's laser screwdriver etc.

Donna became part Time Lord, the Doctor's hand regenerated into a Doctor who was part human, but Donna didn't really become part Time Lord until Davros blasted her

But what happened in this one? The Doctor set up a predestination paradox by going back in time because Rory told him he had already gone back in time. But this was seen before in episodes like Blink and Time Crash. Both written by Moffat, yes. But typical Sci-fi for shows involving time travel. Hell, the Pandorica flying can be explained by the wires coming out of the vortex manipulator and presumably linked into the mechanism of the Pandorica. But I wouldn't class that as a DEM Again, that is something the likes of which would fit in any episode of DW.

But the examples from the other finales? Past or powerful characters suddenly appearing to save the day? People suddenly gaining new magic powers which they no longer have by the end of the episode?

K-9

Maybe a few posters should organise a viewing of each series from the start (Series 1) and subject each series to the same critique?

iguana

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Again running off ideas already established in this episode twice. Firstly its the same process that brought amy back to life and secondly it brought the dalek back to life and its combined with the problem of the tardis cracks to create a solution.

I know what a deus ex machina is and establishing certain parameters within the finale that doesn't make sense based on what we have learned previously, in order to justify a conclusion to a problem that has been building all series counts as one. The fact that the Pandorica could raise the dead itself falls into that category. If a prison which suddenly raises the dead doesn't fall under a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object then nothing does. The same goes for the wrist device being able to transport an entire Pandorica but not take the Doctor back out.

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

yeah thats been coming since this season started. Remember those cracks we saw every episode? Yeah thats the universe exploding and we learned quite a few episodes back that it will be the tardis.

But similar to the point Fysh was making, if the explosion is happening everywhen and everywhere it happens all at once. There would never have been cracks slowly shattering the universe piece by piece, it would all have happened all at once.

It was a Deus Ex Machina ending. The way it ended didn't match up to the science we had seen earlier in the series. It was just a neat wrap around for a big bang ending which would tie everything up in a neat bow without making any actual sense.

samtyler

FFS! This is why I hate threads like these - its a family TV show! Not a Theory of Evoulitionary Physics.
Just sit back and enjoy a bit of escapism for an hour or so every week!

iguana

K-9 wrote: »

Maybe a few posters should organise a viewing of each series from the start (Series 1) and subject each series to the same critique?

I criticised all of the old series whenever it deserved criticism. It's all there if you want to search for it. Some of it's on other sites too, I have the same username on any site I've talked about Doctor Who on.;)

I don't like lazy writing and this series has been full of it, along with an unlikable smugness.

pixelburp wrote:

No, Kylie lived on as fairy dust or some such twaddle.

Really? I thought that was just her essence and would dissipate in the next few minutes. I fell asleep in the middle of that episode so I guess I missed something. Damned if I'm ever going to watch it again though, THAT was a truly awful episode. One of the very worst, along with the Easter one with the bus and Michelle Ryan.

Also Starring LeVar Burton

iguana wrote: »

I know what a deus ex machina is and establishing certain parameters within the finale that doesn't make sense based on what we have learned previously, in order to justify a conclusion to a problem that has been building all series counts as one. The fact that the Pandorica could raise the dead itself falls into that category. If a prison which suddenly raises the dead doesn't fall under a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object then nothing does. The same goes for the wrist device being able to transport an entire Pandorica but not take the Doctor back out.




But similar to the point Fysh was making, if the explosion is happening everywhen and everywhere it happens all at once. There would never have been cracks slowly shattering the universe piece by piece, it would all have happened all at once.

It was a Deus Ex Machina ending. The way it ended didn't match up to the science we had seen earlier in the series. It was just a neat wrap around for a big bang ending which would tie everything up in a neat bow without making any actual sense.

:rolleyes:
It made sense - you're just picking holes...
It's a sci-fi/fantasy series... Embrace some disbelief and watch it for what it is FFS...

iguana

CaptainNegative wrote: »

It's a sci-fi/fantasy series... Embrace some disbelief and watch it for what it is FFS...

That's a week argument and not one that anyone who actually respects sci-fi would make. Doctor Who isn't fantasy, if it was the Deus Ex Machina would be sort of excusable, it's how Buffy got away with it so often. But this is science fiction and that means that for it to make sense it has to set certain parameters and stick within them. Genuine sci-fi is by far and away my favourite genre, it has the means to tell stories in completely original ways but it's important that it sets certain parameters and stay within them.

Suspension of disbelief is tenuous in any genre, but in sci-fi it's more so. So if the rules are changed mid-story it breaks that suspension. Deciding that; oh it's just a story of a mad alien in a time traveling box, obviously anything goes, undermines it.

BlitzKrieg

iguana wrote: »

I know what a deus ex machina is and establishing certain parameters within the finale that doesn't make sense based on what we have learned previously, in order to justify a conclusion to a problem that has been building all series counts as one. The fact that the Pandorica could raise the dead itself falls into that category. If a prison which suddenly raises the dead doesn't fall under a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object then nothing does.

Ahh but thats the point. It is a deux ex machina when the machine is used to revive Amy. But when it revives the dalek...nope. It was already a deux ex machina for amy cant be deux ex machina for the same reason twice in a row, thats sort of the point of a deux ex machina. So when it is used as part of the solution its no longer a deus ex machina. because like you said

a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object[/i]

it can be a deux ex machina the first time someone uses it, but the 2nd, 3rd time so on it isnt, it has prescedent.

The same goes for the wrist device being able to transport an entire Pandorica but not take the Doctor back out.

Again established well within the prior episode (and also part of the solution) nothing can escape the pandorica, the doctor would need someone to release him to get out. Also the wrist device teleporting more then a single person has also been well established, season 3 finale 2 parter opens with the same logic (wrist device rewired with sonic screwdriver to teleport 3 people instead of 1) so again not a deus ex machina.

nicowa

samtyler wrote: »

FFS! This is why I hate threads like these - its a family TV show! Not a Theory of Evoulitionary Physics.
Just sit back and enjoy a bit of escapism for an hour or so every week!

YES!
Thank you, just my thoughts exactly. Nit picking is all yer doing now...

iguana

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Ahh but thats the point. It is a deux ex machina when the machine is used to revive Amy. But when it revives the dalek...nope. It was already a deux ex machina for amy cant be deux ex machina for the same reason twice in a row, thats sort of the point of a deux ex machina. So when it is used as part of the solution its no longer a deus ex machina. because like you said it can be a deux ex machina the first time someone uses it, but the 2nd, 3rd time so on it isnt, it has prescedent.

Good try but if it was DEM when it revived Amy it is the ability to restore the dead that is DEM. And it's ability to restore Amy was different to the Dalek as it restored Amy once she was imprisoned as that was part of it's apparent purpose. The light from the box restoring the Dalek was different and a plot point who's entire purpose was to show the Doctor that the Pandorica could restore life it hadn't imprisoned and therefore fix the universe. So it's certainly Deus Ex Machina.

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Again established well within the prior episode (and also part of the solution) nothing can escape the pandorica, the doctor would need someone to release him to get out.

And why would he shut Pandorica in order to teleport it?

phil1nj

if you dont like that kinda thing this is the wrong show for you.[/QUOTE]

Apologies for having an opinion that went against the greater "this was the best series EVER" thread that seems to have pervaded this topic but I still maintain that it was lazy writing that does not give the viewers some credit to actually spot a cop out when they see it.

I have to say that the previous episodes in this series were pretty enjoyable and it was just a shame that it ended on such a weak note (IMHO).

phil1nj

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Such a cop out that James Cameron made millions using the same logic for the terminator films

He actually ripped off the short story and twilight zone episode "Demon With A Glass Hand" but then again I could be wrong as I've been told I don't fully understand time travel so maybe James Cameron went back in time, wrote that story, then copied it for his Terminator films (both of them , which actually make sense with repeated viewings - no Deus ex Machina to be seen anywhere ) and then had a word with the DW writers. Sorry, bit of a stretch too.

Banjo Fella

Phenomenal episode! I liked it so much! From the immensely entertaining time-travelling plot, the fez-based hilarity, Rory's heroics, the wonderful scenes between little Amy and the Doctor, the silly dancing, and the absolutely genius use of that "something old, something new" idiom... it was a fantastic end to a great series.

Can't wait for the next one! And I love that all but one crucial mystery was tied up - leaves us with a lot to look forward to.

*doffs his fez to The Moff and co.*

Agent J

I want a fez now.

Really enjoyed that episode.Thought it was one of the best season finales i've seen so far.

I was wanting an explaination as to who was controlling the tardis but its set that up for season 6 and river song.

toiletduck

Pretty disappointed with it. Some great bits but overall just left with a feeling of 'meh'. Felt it didn't justify a proper end to a great season.

monkeyfudge

phil1nj wrote: »

He actually ripped off the short story and twilight zone episode "Demon With A Glass Hand" but then again I could be wrong as I've been told I don't fully understand time travel so maybe James Cameron went back in time, wrote that story, then copied it for his Terminator films (both of them , which actually make sense with repeated viewings - no Deus ex Machina to be seen anywhere ) and then had a word with the DW writers. Sorry, bit of a stretch too.

Was a Harlan Elision penned episode of The Outer Limits. They had planned to do a sequel to the episode in Babylon 5 at one point too.

BlitzKrieg

phil1nj wrote: »

He actually ripped off the short story and twilight zone episode "Demon With A Glass Hand" but then again I could be wrong as I've been told I don't fully understand time travel so maybe James Cameron went back in time, wrote that story, then copied it for his Terminator films (both of them , which actually make sense with repeated viewings - no Deus ex Machina to be seen anywhere ) and then had a word with the DW writers. Sorry, bit of a stretch too.

I said logic not story.

The whole went back in time to kill sarah connor to stop john connor being born and ends up creating him by such action. Its the kill your own grandfather paradox scenario.

(though personnally I am more fond of the shifting timeframe theory which the films never confirmed, though the tv series did.)

Its the same sort of paradox scenario (in a less violent light) as the doctor going back in time to release himself from the pandorica.

If that hurt your head in this, how it didnt in terminator fascinates me.

Good try but if it was DEM when it revived Amy it is the ability to restore the dead that is DEM.

Yes, the ability to revive the dead would be DEM if it was used only once for only one solution, if it persists and remains a constent within the narrative (which it does here, with the dalek and needing young pond's dna and of course the finale.)

I am not saying there was no DEM, there was the very first time. I think Every 2 part finale of DW tends to start the 2nd half with a DEM (series 4 has it with the random new regeneration direction ability.)

I just think its a stretch to staple every event after the initial one as DEM aswell, I see them all as building on the opening DEM.

But I think we have irked enough people and might have to agree to disagree

And why would he shut Pandorica in order to teleport it?

trying to remember if Jack said in the empty child if it needs a lifeform signature to operate...but I could be wrong, leaving it open and having the doctor on the inside wouldnt really work, they are teleporting to the centre of an explosion, he cant teleport into the inside of the tardis cause its on a temporal loop and perhaps the elements inside the tardis would interfere with the pandorica.

phil1nj

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

I said logic not story.

The whole went back in time to kill sarah connor to stop john connor being born and ends up creating him by such action. Its the kill your own grandfather paradox scenario.

(though personnally I am more fond of the shifting timeframe theory which the films never confirmed, though the tv series did.)

Its the same sort of paradox scenario (in a less violent light) as the doctor going back in time to release himself from the pandorica. **

If that hurt your head in this, how it didnt in terminator fascinates me.

Maybe it's because of the way that having him release himself from the Pandorica lessens the impact of the penultimate episode of this series. I actually really enjoyed "The Pandorica Opens" episode, some great ideas and a great cliff hanger ending. And then the ultimate kick in the puss with such a terrible and ultimately peril free resolution of how he got out.*

Comparing this with the terminator movies is also a bit non sensical to me as at least with those movies there was a bona fide means of time travel used to create the paradoxes (unlike this episode where the Doctor essentially freed himself with a sequence of logic that convieniently ignores the fact that he was placed in an inescabale prison for all eternity). Sorry to sound like a broken record but IMHO there is no logic whatsoever in this solution. Going back to the Terminator series, at least the time travel technolgy could be reused to back up the events of T1, T2 and T3. End of rant.*

BaconZombie

*/ Have not read any previous comments after the show aired */
Only just watching the opening scene and had to come here and post " WTF!!!!! "

Banjo Fella

phil1nj wrote: »

unlike this episode where the Doctor essentially freed himself with a sequence of logic that convieniently ignores the fact that he was placed in an inescabale prison for all eternity

I don't know... I was actually quite happy with how the Doctor escaped. As you said, the Alliance sealed him within the Pandorica for all eternity... but since the TARDIS destroyed eternity itself I think its fair to bend the rules of causality slightly. Perhaps the laws of nature were distorted enough to allow this sort of thing to happen before the last flicker of reality disappeared?

He escaped from the box because he rescued himself from the box after escaping from the box! It's a paradox, a completely mad one, but it's the sort of thing I find really fun in sci-fi. Given the situation the Doctor was stuck in, I think an inexplicable, mind-bending escape method was much more entertaining than a mundanely logical explanation.