Decline of European football?

namloc1980

I have read that this will be the first World Cup since the inaugural one in 1930 that more non-European teams will have qualified from the first round than European teams (I checked it out and it's true!).

So is this an indication of a shift of power in world football or just a temporary blip?

Melion

To put it simply, No.

Its a blip because of the disastrous performances of France and Italy

Jagera

god some weird conclusions come out of the woodwork during world cups

Hazys

namloc1980 wrote: »

I have read that this will be the first World Cup since the inaugural one in 1930 that more non-European teams will have qualified from the first round than European teams (I checked it out and it's true!).

So is this an indication of a shift of power in world football or just a temporary blip?

No, its a power shift from teams consisting of over paid, over hyped individual 'superstars' to teams full of no-namers, who play as a team and have pride in playing for their country.


It just happens the big European countries have more Superstars than team players.

redout

namloc1980 wrote: »

I have read that this will be the first World Cup since the inaugural one in 1930 that more non-European teams will have qualified from the first round than European teams (I checked it out and it's true!).

So is this an indication of a shift of power in world football or just a temporary blip?

Meh, Italy and France were known to be rubbish before the tournament even started to be honest.

Stinicker

Due to the very nature of the European proffesional system I would wager that there are some of the worlds best players going completely unnoticed in the amateur game or who aren't playing properly. Look at that New Zealand chap who had to get time off from his work as a banker and he completely destroyed the Italian marking him.

Overheal

namloc1980 wrote: »

I have read that this will be the first World Cup since the inaugural one in 1930 that more non-European teams will have qualified from the first round than European teams (I checked it out and it's true!).

So is this an indication of a shift of power in world football or just a temporary blip?

lol, rubbish.

Its more to do with the fact that the World Cup has grown in such popularity that more and more countries outside of Europe are taking interest and bringing their A-game.

I think doomsday prophecies are a bit OTT just because Europe doesn't have the lion's share of spots in the tournament.

I dont follow much football but that seems to be the case. And yes it doesnt hurt that most countries dont have Beckhams that are into their superstar status not the team.

yahoo_moe

Can we not just introduce a 'Snap Judgments' sub-forum and be done with it?

namloc1980

Overheal wrote: »

lol, rubbish.

Its more to do with the fact that the World Cup has grown in such popularity that more and more countries outside of Europe are taking interest and bringing their A-game.

I think doomsday prophecies are a bit OTT just because Europe doesn't have the lion's share of spots in the tournament.

It's not rubbish, it's a fact :rolleyes: This is the first time since 1930 that there are less European teams than non-Euro teams coming out of the first round. It's a fact! I was just putting the fact out there.

Personally I think non-Euro teams are more up for it these days. That may change next time out in Brazil...who knows?

namloc1980

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Can we not just introduce a 'Snap Judgments' sub-forum and be done with it?

Who made a snap judgment.....it's a question to the forum FFS! :rolleyes:

Bob the Seducer

I'm not one to pass up the chance of some wild speculation. How many Asian and African teams would have qualified if they all had to play-off against teams like Russia, Turkey, Croatia, Ireland, Sweden, Romania, Czech Republic etc...?

eagle eye

Overheal wrote: »

lol, rubbish.

Its more to do with the fact that the World Cup has grown in such popularity that more and more countries outside of Europe are taking interest and bringing their A-game.

I think doomsday prophecies are a bit OTT just because Europe doesn't have the lion's share of spots in the tournament.

I dont follow much football but that seems to be the case. And yes it doesnt hurt that most countries dont have Beckhams that are into their superstar status not the team.

I think you need to change the name of the player you are using to describe those that are more into their superstar status.

In all fairness to David Beckham he gave his all on the pitch every time he played for England. So saying 'Beckhams' is very wrong.

x in the city

If Ireland were in the tournament we would all be happy as larry

blame herr blatter


*evil laugh

mike65

In the 90s everyone seemed to think Africa was the next big thing, and that an African nation would win the WC in the foreseeable future (they couldn't see nearly far enough), as it happens Afican players have come on in leaps and bounds in the professional game but the national teams have fallen back a little. Asia was going to be the next big thing (see South Korea c 2002) well maybe baby but the jury is still out obviously.

Europe has seen two traditional powers fall at the first hurdle (with a third a slight possible tomorow) but so what? Spain often leave early, England didn't even qualify in 1974/78 and 06. France just have a few too many crap managers, their systems are fine. The Americans if they get past Ghana will no doubt be talking themselves up as future world beaters and the 2010 Cup will go to Brazil probably. Sounds like business as usual to me.

ArmaniJeanss

namloc1980 wrote: »

It's not rubbish, it's a fact :rolleyes: This is the first time since 1930 that there are less European teams than non-Euro teams coming out of the first round. It's a fact! I was just putting the fact out there.

A huge factor (probably the biggest factor) is that there are less European teams than ever. Just 13 out of 32 now, down from 14 of 24 as recently as 1994.
So it would have been a reasonable achievement by Europe to have got 8 teams into the last 16 (to maintain the record you refer to). 7 is still possible so I don't think we can write off Europe just yet.

Jagera

mike65 wrote: »

In the 90s everyone seemed to think Africa was the next big thing, and that an African nation would win the WC in the foreseeable future (they couldn't see nearly far enough), as it happens Afican players have come on in leaps and bounds in the professional game but the national teams have fallen back a little. Asia was going to be the next big thing (see South Korea c 2002) well maybe baby but the jury is still out obviously.

Europe has seen two traditional powers fall at the first hurdle (with a third a slight possible tomorow) but so what? Spain often leave early, England didn't even qualify in 1974/78 and 06. France just have a few too many crap managers, their systems are fine. The Americans if they get past Ghana will no doubt be talking themselves up as future world beaters and the 2010 Cup will go to Brazil probably. Sounds like business as usual to me.

Agree. There are always some surprises and upsets, but it'll be a long time before a team outside of the "usual suspects" actually WIN the World Cup.

(watch Japan go on & win it now.....)

namloc1980

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

A huge factor (probably the biggest factor) is that there are less European teams than ever. Just 13 out of 32 now, down from 14 of 24 as recently as 1994.
So it would have been a reasonable achievement by Europe to have got 8 teams into the last 16 (to maintain the record you refer to). 7 is still possible so I don't think we can write off Europe just yet.

Not sure about that, in 2006 Europe had 10 teams in the second round out of 14 representatives.

Overheal

namloc1980 wrote: »

It's not rubbish, it's a fact :rolleyes: This is the first time since 1930 that there are less European teams than non-Euro teams coming out of the first round. It's a fact! I was just putting the fact out there.

That was not what I was referring to. I was referring to calling it the decline of European football.

An Citeog

mike65 wrote: »

In the 90s everyone seemed to think Africa was the next big thing, and that an African nation would win the WC in the foreseeable future (they couldn't see nearly far enough), as it happens Afican players have come on in leaps and bounds in the professional game but the national teams have fallen back a little. Asia was going to be the next big thing (see South Korea c 2002) well maybe baby but the jury is still out obviously.

Europe has seen two traditional powers fall at the first hurdle (with a third a slight possible tomorow) but so what? Spain often leave early, England didn't even qualify in 1974/78 and 06. France just have a few too many crap managers, their systems are fine. The Americans if they get past Ghana will no doubt be talking themselves up as future world beaters and the 2010 Cup will go to Brazil probably. Sounds like business as usual to me.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2006/4991618.stm

T'was 94!;)

mike65

Doh!

Euro_Kraut

South America are on track to have all 5 representatives qualify for the next round as group winners.

Would be some achievement by them.

Europe's 2nd level teams have been very poor. Only Slovakia looks like they will make it out of the Group. Greece, Slovenia, Serbia & Denmark have all been pretty disappointing. It might suggest a the lack of strength in depth. I'm not sure if some sort of continental co-efficient is used to determine how many team qualify from a Region. But as it stands Europe and Africa would be losing places to the Americas and Asia.

Het-Field

Im just delighted that it is becoming the game d'jour in the USA. Sure the Dallas Cowboys are already offering Cowboys Stadium as a World Cup Final venue !

I just want to get it back in the US !

namloc1980

Overheal wrote: »

That was not what I was referring to. I was referring to calling it the decline of European football.

You obviously missed the question mark.

Peyton Manning

Het-Field wrote: »

Im just delighted that it is becoming the game d'jour in the USA. Sure the Dallas Cowboys are already offering Cowboys Stadium as a World Cup Final venue !

I just want to get it back in the US !

That would be incredible. More people need to see that stadium. For those that don't know, it has the largest LCD High Def screen in the world (160ft x 72ft) hanging over the centre of the field. Magnificent achievement.

rossie1977

namloc1980 wrote: »

Not sure about that, in 2006 Europe had 10 teams in the second round out of 14 representatives.

that wc was in europe, no european team has ever won the wc outside of europe, there is a fact for you and that won't change this year either

mike65

I wouldn't fancy running about under that!

namloc1980

rossie1977 wrote: »

that wc was in europe, no european team has ever won the wc outside of europe, there is a fact for you and that won't change this year either

9 European teams qualified from the first round in the 2002 world cup and that was in Asia!

ArmaniJeanss

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

But as it stands Europe and Africa would be losing places to the Americas and Asia.

Why would Europe be losing places to Asia?

Both confederations have performed identically so far. 50% of the Asian representatives have qualified for the next round (2 from 4) and barring a couple of miracle results tomorrow either 6 or 7 of Europes 13 will also qualify for the next round.

(I accept that South America have made a huge case for having their allocation increased from 4.5 to 5 or 5.5, but logically only Africa have performed seriously below what they should have achieved, which is 3 teams in the second round).

gandalf

Hazys wrote: »

No, its a power shift from teams consisting of over paid, over hyped individual 'superstars' to teams full of no-namers, who play as a team and have pride in playing for their country.


It just happens the big European countries have more Superstars than team players.

This is exactly my thoughts on this. All these superstar players care about is getting marketing endorsements so they can flog any convenience food, soft drink or beer associated with the World Cup. Or force a move to a bigger club to pay them even more obscene wages. They don't give a fiddlers about the team or the ordinary supporters.

Contrast them with the Japanese players who played out of their skin today and were a credit to their country and their fans.

Eire-Dearg

Archimedes wrote: »

That would be incredible. More people need to see that stadium. For those that don't know, it has the largest LCD High Def screen in the world (160ft x 72ft) hanging over the centre of the field. Magnificent achievement.

Who cares, aren't you at the game already?

monkey9

Overheal wrote: »

lol, rubbish.

Its more to do with the fact that the World Cup has grown in such popularity that more and more countries outside of Europe are taking interest and bringing their A-game.

I think doomsday prophecies are a bit OTT just because Europe doesn't have the lion's share of spots in the tournament.

I dont follow much football but that seems to be the case. And yes it doesnt hurt that most countries dont have Beckhams that are into their superstar status not the team.

This post is completely contradictory!! The overall attitude of this post suggests you want to disagree with the OP, but from what you write, you are actually agreeing with him!!

Jordan Berbatov

A France under Blanc would have been a force to be reckoned with imo. I think he would have the got the best out of players like Gourcoff, Ribery, Anelka, Evra and he would have had Benzema and Nasri in the squad. The French team pulled together in 2006 (albeit with an inspired Zidane) and were unlucky not to win it. For Domench to still be in charge is an insult to them and you have to understand their frustration.

Italy showed in the last twenty minutes that they can play when they want to, and if Buffon and Pirlo had of been fit they would probably have been through.

I think South America have definitely been the outstanding continent at this world cup, but I still wouldn't rule out Germany/Spain/England/Holland/Portugal to have a major say in this tournament, all bar England have looked class at certain stages.

Euro_Kraut

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Why would Europe be losing places to Asia?

Both confederations have performed identically so far. 50% of the Asian representatives have qualified for the next round (2 from 4) and barring a couple of miracle results tomorrow either 6 or 7 of Europes 13 will also qualify for the next round.

I forgot Australia are Asian now. Was thinking they has 2/3 into the next round.

However if Asia are preforming to a similar level as Europe why should they only have 4 teams vs 13 from Europe? In the head to heads vs the continents its currently 3-3. I think there is evidence t suggest that Asia are closing the gap on Europe and prehaps deserve and extra place at our expense.

Definitely 'America' deserves an extra place if we were basing it purely on this world cup. So far, from the 8 North and South American teams, only Honduras have lost a match. *


* Excluding the inter-Americas match between Uruguay and Mexico.

ArmaniJeanss

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

However if Asia are preforming to a similar level as Europe why should they only have 4 teams vs 13 from Europe?

Because in order to justify more places they would have to perform at a level which indicates they have too few. And they haven't done this, all they've done is indicate that they have the correct amount of places in 4 (its actually 4.5 come to think of it with a playoff place against Oceania).
Similarly Europes allegedly 'disastrous' performance would merely indicate that 13 places is the correct amount, and there is no peformance based reason to reduce it.

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

In the head to heads vs the continents its currently 3-3. I think there is evidence t suggest that Asia are closing the gap on Europe and prehaps deserve and extra place at our expense.

If any other continents deserve an extra place (and I think we agree that Conmebol probably do) then logically the place it should come from is Africa. It won't happen for political reasons obviously, but their results have never been able to justify their continual increase in places. Their performance in 2010 is the equivalent of only 2 of Europes 13 getting into the second round.

It would be beyond ridiculous for one 'exactly par' performance from Europe to lead to a reduction in teams when our 'above par' performance in 2006 (10 of 14 teams into the 2nd round) didn't lead to an increase in places.

bonerm

If you trawl the records you will see the lowest* number of European teams to make it to last-8 was 1970 where only 4 European teams were present at that stage. Same thing happened in 2002, so clearly the venue has an effect on European performance.

This time around however, unless someone can knock-out Brazil in the last16, there is actually going to be only three european teams still playing at the quarter finals stage, which will be an all-time low.

I definetly think this is a watershed moment. Whilst I certainly don't believe that most of these non-European countries have better players I do believe that they have prepared better and generally have a better attitude to the competition than many of their European counterparts.

*I'm not counting 1930 as most European teams chose not to even enter that particular competition.

inforfun

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I think there is evidence t suggest that Asia are closing the gap on Europe and prehaps deserve and extra place at our expense.

If any continent should lose a spot it is Africa.
But before Asia gets another spot let them first show consistency, just like Africa has basically shown their are bad consistently.
I would make the exemption for Ivory Coast who have been very unlucky being drawn in a group of death 2x in a row now. But they also failed 2x in such a group (bar a miracle today)
Remember Japan won its first games ever apart from the ones they won when they organised WC2002. I really dont think we should award a continent extra places based on that.

South America has already 4,5/5 spots which is a lot seeing that only 10 countries compete in the qualifiers.

marco_polo

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I forgot Australia are Asian now. Was thinking they has 2/3 into the next round.

However if Asia are preforming to a similar level as Europe why should they only have 4 teams vs 13 from Europe? In the head to heads vs the continents its currently 3-3. I think there is evidence t suggest that Asia are closing the gap on Europe and prehaps deserve and extra place at our expense.

Definitely 'America' deserves an extra place if we were basing it purely on this world cup. So far, from the 8 North and South American teams, only Honduras have lost a match. *


* Excluding the inter-Americas match between Uruguay and Mexico.

If the fourth best team is North Korea, then that really suggests to me that the competition would not be enhanced by the presence of the next placed Asian side tbh. Discounting Australia who were only imported this time around there are there are only two nations which are at the level of the better European / South American teams and not much evidence that this is going to change in the near future.

African teams have been dissappointing for sure, I think it was a pity that Egypt were pipped by Algeria in their group, as I feel that they would have been in a better position to make a decent impact. I also think the Ivory Coast with a full fit Drogba might have progressed a good few of the other groups weaker groups in the competition.

ArmaniJeanss

bonerm wrote: »

This time around however, unless someone can knock-out Brazil in the last16, there is actually going to be only three european teams still playing at the quarter finals stage, which will be an all-time low.

An element of this is obviously the 'luck of the draw' which sees England playing Germany and Holland playing Slovakia, with Portugal v Spain/Switzerland also a possible tie. Not easy to get 4+ into the quarter finals if all your teams are getting drawn against each other!

bonerm wrote: »

I definetly think this is a watershed moment. Whilst I certainly don't believe that most of these non-European countries have better players I do believe that they have prepared better and generally have a better attitude to the competition than many of their European counterparts.

I actually think theres a reasonable chance that you (and Euro Kraut) are correct, that this is a watershed moment. The figures as I've tried to explain can be interpreted in different ways, but there quite possibly is a decline in European standards.
I'd just hate to see it pounced on by the other confederations as Europes allocation is a one-way street.

Say it gets reduced to 11 because of this WC. And in 4 years time seven of those eleven end up in the quarter finals, and four in the semi finals. That wouldn't lead to an increase back to 13 as no other confederation will be willing to give up their allocation. So Europe should fight tooth and nail to hold onto what they have.

marco_polo

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

An element of this is obviously the 'luck of the draw' which sees England playing Germany and Holland playing Slovakia, with Portugal v Spain/Switzerland also a possible tie. Not easy to get 4+ into the quarter finals if all your teams are getting drawn against each other!



I actually think theres a reasonable chance that you (and Euro Kraut) are correct, that this is a watershed moment. The figures as I've tried to explain can be interpreted in different ways, but there quite possibly is a decline in European standards.
I'd just hate to see it pounced on by the other confederations as Europes allocation is a one-way street.

Say it gets reduced to 11 because of this WC. And in 4 years time seven of those eleven end up in the quarter finals, and four in the semi finals. That wouldn't lead to an increase back to 13 as no other confederation will be willing to give up their allocation. So Europe should fight tooth and nail to hold onto what they have.

Good points, one world cup does not a trend make. Tthere should not be any knee jerk reallocations of qualifying places.

MementoMori

Hear a commentator on the Italy v Slovakia match claiming the result was a bad one for European football.



Where exactly does he think Slovakia is?

Yakult

Far from it imo.

If anything I think Italy are in a decline. Unless they have MASSIVE hidden young talent back there, which is doubtful.

France have a good squad, just need the right management.

England, god only knows.

Spain, strong team and most players have another WC in them.

Germany, young team with good harmony and will be better next WC.

only a small example.

Boskowski

There obviously has been a shift over the last 20 or 30 years.
Until what - 1994? - Asian teams didn't play a role whatsoever. Before that it was African teams. Before that the World Cup was entirely a South-American and European affair.
Football - like virtually every other thing too - has become more of a global game now and the latecomers are beginning to get better. Only natural. I don't think you can call it a decline of European football but rather a rise in non-European football.

pickarooney

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I forgot Australia are Asian now. Was thinking they has 2/3 into the next round.

Was that a permanent decision? Do NZ have a case for being allowed qualify from Asia directly now after their undefeated run

ArmaniJeanss

Bump.

And so it came to pass in the following week that the good people of boards realised that they'd perhaps written off European football a bit too early.

mike65

Some did, I said it was buisness as usual (plus Spain!).