Property tax

Glenalla

Will the looming introduction of a property tax ruin any recovery in the market and force prices down further as people cant afford to keep houses?

gulf

No doubt farmers will, as with all taxes, be exempt.

quozl

There would need to be a recovery for one to be ruined, so no to your leading question.

However it is another downward impetuous. Less so because people won't be able to afford to keep properties so much as they will be able to take out smaller mortgages with the additional expense calculated in.

Tech3

This will be the final nail in the coffin for all those badly stuck up in the eyes with debt. Well that and the fact interest rates are only going one way.

This will in turn drive the market into further turmoil even though average joe soap might think that it cant get any worse at the moment.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Joe Duffy, I mean, the OP fails in stating that the tax is for second homes. Sensationalist, saber rattling you are not the best at OP.

Jesh1

Glenalla wrote: »

Will the looming introduction of a property tax ruin any recovery in the market and force prices down further as people cant afford to keep houses?

With water charges and now property tax looming I’m beginning to think if going to work is worth it anymore.....Unless you’re earning a substantial wage maybe sitting at home playing my PS3 in my Pajamas all day in my free council house and butter vouchers isn’t all bad

Glenalla

Jesh1 wrote: »

With water charges and now property tax looming I’m beginning to think if going to work is worth it anymore.....Unless you’re earning a substantial wage maybe sitting at home playing my PS3 in my Pajamas all day in my free council house and butter vouchers isn’t all bad

I agree as those on benefits seem to be exempt from everything so maybe its time to join them.

fliball123

I really think if they do introduce this that there will be a mass exodus out of the country and a lot of unrest and protest on the street. I for one will march all day and do time before I pay any property tax.

I have already paid over 60k in stamp duty and the most recent house bought is over 100k in neg equity and still with a mortgage of over 20 years..

I mean if the money was being spent wisely you could stomach it a bit more but it will go into the banks..

I mean people in this country need to wake up the gov only does a uturn if there is unrest

Look at the pensioners and now the Unions/P.S get their croke park deals so they will not be getting any more cuts...

So now the poor f#cks who bought a property will be getting hit with yet another tax....

I mean we pay income tax, tax levies, PRSI, Road Toals, We pay for school teachers, books, uniforms so no free education

We pay for visits to doctors/Hospitals no free health and not mentioning the level of service which is very poor

We pay car tax and still have to pay on the likes of the M50

When do people call enough is enough...If the lads from the 1916 rising were here they'd kick our arses..We have become a nation of lazy people and the fact that these f#cking idiots got voted in again is unreal..

Sorry for the rant but I consider myself to be average

I get paid 40k out of that about 10k goes out on taxes
I have a house - paid the stamp and will now have to pay property tax
I have a car - Road tax and M50 twice a day + petrol prices + taxes...
I have no medical card - so 60 quid a visit
It leave very little for clothes on your back and food on the table
I have a kid on the way and being honest with you I get very disheartened when I think about having to raise the kid in this climate...I mean where is all of this money that I probably indicitive of an average irish person is paying going? Because I am not seeing anything in return for what I am paying

D3PO

here here. I will march against a property tax and have never marched before.

and if they do introduce it I wont pay it. Until I make my last mortgage payment the bank "own" the house so they can pay the tax.

facksake

I actually agree that a property tax should be introduced. Before you go bonker hear me out.

Stamp duty is a barrier to mobility in the market. It needs to be gotten rid of.

Every other developed country in the world pay some form of a recurrent property tax. Introducing one isn't being exceptionally unfair.

There will more than likely be a relief scheme whereby a persons ability to pay will be taken into account, i.e someone drawing social welfare won't be levied.

There will also more than likely be a relief scheme for those that paid stamp duty in recent years, so they won't be liable to pay the tax until it is seen that their stamp duty payment has been completely justified, as in their yearly levy will be added each year until it surpasses the amount of stamp duty that they paid. Then they will have to start paying the property tax.

The revenue generated from stamp duty has been slashed during the recession, and the government is missing out on much needed funds that a recurrent property tax would yield. In order to get this country throuh a proper recovery, tax revenue needs to increase. Like I said a persons ability to pay should and probably will be taken into account so only those that can afford to pay will.

I think it's a much needed move by the government and for once people should see the economics of it and applaud the decision as tough as it may be, rather than moan about everything they do in an almost blind manner at this stage due to the governments previous mistakes

20goto10

Everyone wants the state finances sorted but nobody wants to be the one to pay for it. Let's get bailed out and let the Germans and French pay for it instead!

danbohan

20goto10 wrote: »

Everyone wants the state finances sorted but nobody wants to be the one to pay for it. Let's get bailed out and let the Germans and French pay for it instead!

exactly , sort out state finances , sort out negative equity ,dont cut wages especally public servants , dont cut sw payments , dont cut rent allowence or mortgage allowence , dont cut childrens allowence , no property tax , whinge whinge , get real and think for a while , do ye think we can keep borrowing 50 million a day forever, ?, sometimes i dont know if majority of people in this country are just totally stupid or totally in denial or both !

fontanalis

20goto10 wrote: »

Everyone wants the state finances sorted but nobody wants to be the one to pay for it. Let's get bailed out and let the Germans and French pay for it instead!

It's like the episode of the simpsons with the bear aptrol and bear tax.

As for the recovery mentioned that this may kill, what recovery? Unless you mean the wonderful surge in prices so people can offload their houses, and if prices go down there could be a surge in interested buyers.

D3PO

danbohan wrote: »

exactly , sort out state finances , sort out negative equity ,dont cut wages especally public servants , dont cut sw payments , dont cut rent allowence or mortgage allowence , dont cut childrens allowence , no property tax , whinge whinge , get real and think for a while , do ye think we can keep borrowing 50 million a day forever, ?, sometimes i dont know if majority of people in this country are just totally stupid or totally in denial or both !

stupid or in denial .... or perhaps just fedup of getting FUC*KED over by government policy on property.

ive had no issues with increased vat, carbon tax, increased tax etc but they can get stuffed if they think Im paying them a property tax for a house in negative equity that they already got over 20 grand for in stamp duty only 5 years ago for.

incase you didnt realise theres over 130 ways to reduce spend / increase tax in the McCarthy report. Hows about the policy makers looks there before siticking their fingers up at the hundreds and thousands of people in neg equity

now before you got trotting out the people are stupid comments you might actually get a grip and realise that nobody on here has said they dont agree with things being cut :rolleyes:

Jesh1

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/fianna-fail-takes-only-from-poor-2234504.html

The_Conductor

Royalty Shy Speech wrote: »

Joe Duffy, I mean, the OP fails in stating that the tax is for second homes. Sensationalist, saber rattling you are not the best at OP.

The property tax for second homes is already into its second year of operation. The current proposal is to tax people's PPR (principle private residence).

At present the proposals are bogged down in arguments over whether property size should have precedent over property value- as the previous property tax which focused solely on property value- was widely seen as a 'Dublin-only' tax.

It will probably be a mesh-up of both- half the tax calculated on property size, and half on value- meaning no-one will be happy, but at least there won't be the recriminations that were obvious last time out.

It looks likely to come in for December- and then water rates the following year- as I don't think we're allowed to levy flat rate water charges, as it goes against the user pays principle.

Now that 35-40% of the population are exempt from all these proposals- what the government really need to do is sit down and redesign our social welfare system from the bottom up- for the average family- once these levies come in- it will put vast swathes of the population over the tipping point. A family with 3 kids are currently better off on social welfare and related entitlements (incl. medical card, rent allowance etc) than with a parent in fulltime employment on a gross salary of 52k paying the cheapest health insurance available in the Irish market. If you propose to take another 2,600 (property tax and water charges) gross off them per year- it really will be the straw that breaks the camels back.

AARRRRGH

There will certainly be a property tax.

Also the mortgage interest relief will go for everyone.

And the rent relief that all renters get now will go too. That will raise more money than any property tax and will not be on home owners.

I bet they dont remove stamp duty either.

Theboinkmaster

fliball123 wrote: »

I really think if they do introduce this that there will be a mass exodus out of the country and a lot of unrest and protest on the street. I for one will march all day and do time before I pay any property tax.

I have already paid over 60k in stamp duty and the most recent house bought is over 100k in neg equity and still with a mortgage of over 20 years..

I mean if the money was being spent wisely you could stomach it a bit more but it will go into the banks..

I mean people in this country need to wake up the gov only does a uturn if there is unrest

Look at the pensioners and now the Unions/P.S get their croke park deals so they will not be getting any more cuts...

So now the poor f#cks who bought a property will be getting hit with yet another tax....

I mean we pay income tax, tax levies, PRSI, Road Toals, We pay for school teachers, books, uniforms so no free education

We pay for visits to doctors/Hospitals no free health and not mentioning the level of service which is very poor

We pay car tax and still have to pay on the likes of the M50

When do people call enough is enough...If the lads from the 1916 rising were here they'd kick our arses..We have become a nation of lazy people and the fact that these f#cking idiots got voted in again is unreal..

Sorry for the rant but I consider myself to be average

I get paid 40k out of that about 10k goes out on taxes
I have a house - paid the stamp and will now have to pay property tax
I have a car - Road tax and M50 twice a day + petrol prices + taxes...
I have no medical card - so 60 quid a visit
It leave very little for clothes on your back and food on the table
I have a kid on the way and being honest with you I get very disheartened when I think about having to raise the kid in this climate...I mean where is all of this money that I probably indicitive of an average irish person is paying going? Because I am not seeing anything in return for what I am paying

I'm sorry i have no sympathy for you at all. You only earn €40k yet you've managed to pay €60k stamp duty and are €100k in negative equity?! You obviously completely over-stretched yourself, getting heavily into debt and buying an obviously over-priced asset. Nobody made you do it so now live with the consequences.

I 100% completely agree with the introduction of property tax. It's one of the only possible ways to broaden the tax base and most other countries have some sort of property tax. We need to increase the tax take somewhat without increasing income tax, VAT etc so this is one of the only ways of doing it.

There will be no unrest - this isn't France you know. Us Irish can't even send food back in restaurants

digzy

I agree wit hfliball123. I'm sick of us morons in the middle taking all these hits. the state ought to look at those on benefit. I'm sick of hearing about "those most vulnerable in society". fliball123 and I are the vulnerable ones. Our pay is the easy target, we've paid the bloody stamp duty. The very least is that we should be exempt from property tax.
It'll give all those auctioneers something to do. they can rip us all off alllllllll over again!

D3PO

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

I 100% completely agree with the introduction of property tax. It's one of the only possible ways to broaden the tax base and most other countries have some sort of property tax. We need to increase the tax take somewhat without increasing income tax, VAT etc so this is one of the only ways of doing it.

one of the only ways to broaden the tax base ? you couldnt be further off the mark. if you had said the only way to plug the gap left by the massive reduction in stamp duty for the last few years then fair enough.

the tax base can be broadened in literally hundreds of ways.

god forbid creating a taxation policy hits everybody across the board proportionatly.

I mean why should renters take a hit lets just lash everything on "property owners" :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I genuinely will refuse to pay this to the point they can lock me up.

Sam Kade

gulf wrote: »

No doubt farmers will, as with all taxes, be exempt.

What a load of nonsense :rolleyes:

facksake

If a property tax was run efficiently and equitably I think it would 100% be the right tax to introduce. Like I said before if it takes those who recently paid stamp duty into account and takes a persons ability to pay into account then it will be a very fair tax.

It will shift this country's reliance away from stamp duty which is far too transaction based and generate a large amount of revenue instantly. It's 100% the right economic move, however I still think if it takes all this into account people like D3PO will still find a way to complain and the Government will be slated for the right economic move

quozl

Here's a thought on the double taxation issue.

If there's one thing we have learnt from the bubble it is that people would pay as much as they could (via massively over-leveraged borrowing) when buying properties.

So, assume 20k stamp duty on a 400k purchase.
380K goes to vendor. 20K to government. Buyer pays 400k.

Assume no stamp duty. We've seen that people will pay as much as they can borrow, so they will still be paying the 400k for the property - if they don't someone else would. We all saw the competitive rush to buy properties during the boom years.

So, no stamp duty gives
400k to vendor, 0k to government. Buyer pays 400k.

Stamp duty is actually a tax on the vendor, not the purchaser. The buyer pays the same either way.

So people claiming that property tax is unfair because they've already paid stamp duty when buying the property are mistaken.

*not my original argument, it hadn't occurred to me until I read this argument elsewhere, but it is very plausible to me.

facksake

^^^
That's a good point actually however if a new property tax is introduced and those that paid stamp duty in recent years aren't given some form of relief there will be an absolute war

Duckjob

smccarrick wrote: »

If you propose to take another 2,600 (property tax and water charges) gross off them per year- it really will be the straw that breaks the camels back.

Thats an interesting side-point actually- are they proposing any sort of tax credit to go alongside this, so that the tax is effectively off your gross income?

Or is it going to be another double-tax job, which is a model normally reserved for taxing items that are considered luxuries ? e.g car, tv.

Is owning your own home to be considered a "luxury" now?

AARRRRGH

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

I'm sorry i have no sympathy for you at all. You only earn €40k yet you've managed to pay €60k stamp duty and are €100k in negative equity?! You obviously completely over-stretched yourself, getting heavily into debt and buying an obviously over-priced asset. Nobody made you do it so now live with the consequences.

I 100% completely agree with the introduction of property tax. It's one of the only possible ways to broaden the tax base and most other countries have some sort of property tax. We need to increase the tax take somewhat without increasing income tax, VAT etc so this is one of the only ways of doing it.

There will be no unrest - this isn't France you know. Us Irish can't even send food back in restaurants

You are right about there going to be a property tax. But wrong about it being the best way to broaden the tax net. The best way to broaden the tax net is to have a property tax AND get rid of rent relief and mortgage interest relief. Now that would pull in some bucks.

Idbatterim

well if the water tax and property tax, mean that the PS wont suffer anymore cuts in pay until 2014, isnt it worth it?

D3PO

facksake wrote: »

If a property tax was run efficiently and equitably I think it would 100% be the right tax to introduce. Like I said before if it takes those who recently paid stamp duty into account and takes a persons ability to pay into account then it will be a very fair tax.

It will shift this country's reliance away from stamp duty which is far too transaction based and generate a large amount of revenue instantly. It's 100% the right economic move, however I still think if it takes all this into account people like D3PO will still find a way to complain and the Government will be slated for the right economic move

your way off the mark. Firstly your extremely nieve if you think this would be run efficiently. your memory must be very short

this is the same governemnt who amongst others

wasted millions on co-location hospitals

wasted millions via a quango on the glass bottle site

wasted millions on the would be super prision

wasted millions on e voting machines

wasted millions on buying luas trams years in advance onlyl to have to pay to store them

drove the property boom due to their policies things like section 21 tax breaks etc

same government who failed to listen to their own department of finance in 2005 when they were warned of a bubble about to burst

i could go on and on but i think ive made my point

im all for broadening the tax base and I have no issue in having to take the additional share of the burden so dont go spouting rubbish about people complaining about a property tax when honestly you havent a clue.

I have no problem with a well thought out property tax eventually being introduced when the market stabilises but the tax base can be broadened in other ways in the interim.

facksake

That's fair enough D3PO I understand your point.

I have to dispute your claim that I don't have a clue though - I did a thesis on the case for reintroducing a Residential Property Tax in the Republic of Ireland. I understand that this study didn't analyse the abilities and failings of the current government, but it certainly highlighted the fact that a property tax could instantly generate ten times what stamp duty generated last year. I definately believe that ability to pay should be taken into account, so OAP's, people drawing social welfare, widowers etc. shouldn't have to pay this tax. I also think that a households overall income should be taken into account, so that people will not be burdened to an inequitable degree.

People who recently paid stamp duty should have this regarded as a 'pre payment' of property tax and when their total amount paid is equaled to by the accumulated annual levy of that person they will then be chargeable.

As i've said before the economics of it are simple - Every other developed country has some form of recurrent property taxation, Stamp Duty's time has come and gone. It's time to move to a more steady and reliable property tax system.

Sorry for saying that people like you will still complain, but that's how I see it. If I was in government i'd like to think i'd have the balls to make this decision, but there will be uproar if it's introduced. In my opinion I think people should look at the economics of it and accept it.

Having said all that you make a very valid point that this government has wasted millions in recent years so how can they be trusted? I can't argue with that, but if a property tax system was introduced with my previously stated criteria and more it would be an equitable and efficient tax system which could generate a couple of billion a year

D3PO

just to clarify i didnt say you dont have a clue, just that your nieve if you think the government introduction fo this would be even half as thought out as your proposal.

if it was well thought out and dealt with fine but i have no confidence in this being the case.

Bailey05

fliball123 wrote: »

I really think if they do introduce this that there will be a mass exodus out of the country and a lot of unrest and protest on the street. I for one will march all day and do time before I pay any property tax.

I have already paid over 60k in stamp duty and the most recent house bought is over 100k in neg equity and still with a mortgage of over 20 years..

I mean if the money was being spent wisely you could stomach it a bit more but it will go into the banks..

I mean people in this country need to wake up the gov only does a uturn if there is unrest

Look at the pensioners and now the Unions/P.S get their croke park deals so they will not be getting any more cuts...

So now the poor f#cks who bought a property will be getting hit with yet another tax....

I mean we pay income tax, tax levies, PRSI, Road Toals, We pay for school teachers, books, uniforms so no free education

We pay for visits to doctors/Hospitals no free health and not mentioning the level of service which is very poor

We pay car tax and still have to pay on the likes of the M50

When do people call enough is enough...If the lads from the 1916 rising were here they'd kick our arses..We have become a nation of lazy people and the fact that these f#cking idiots got voted in again is unreal..

Sorry for the rant but I consider myself to be average

I get paid 40k out of that about 10k goes out on taxes
I have a house - paid the stamp and will now have to pay property tax
I have a car - Road tax and M50 twice a day + petrol prices + taxes...
I have no medical card - so 60 quid a visit
It leave very little for clothes on your back and food on the table
I have a kid on the way and being honest with you I get very disheartened when I think about having to raise the kid in this climate...I mean where is all of this money that I probably indicitive of an average irish person is paying going? Because I am not seeing anything in return for what I am paying

I agree, if property tax comes in, with the water tax, I'll be straight up to the bank handing my keys over and taking the first plane out of here. Well done majority 99% of you gov. ministers for stealing from the country, giving it to developers, failing to put any TD's, FAS directors, executive bankers or developers in jail for blatant fraud and theft. You have destroyed this country but you'll be safe in your consituent house and fat pension, while I have to tell my kid, wife that we can't turn on the heat as it costs too much. Your a disgrace and I'll see you on the street in the very near future.