british sas , are they over rated

troubleshooter

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Why bother?
The post attached doesn't mention afghanistan - and just to clarify I did know but could care less that the SAS are in afghanistan.
Left army 25 years ago so don't know what point you are making? I stated I WORKED with ex SAS. Can't imagine what sort of egos some of you have that you'd imagine I'd lie about this - but it only came up when a playstation soldier referred to my service. OH. and VCP - can I be a real soldier like you now.....

The problem is you have come on here claming to be an ex NCO who has worked with ex SAS etc, yet everything you have posted is inaccurate, including the terminology you use. Your also also very defencive calling people armchair generals etc and now covering yourself saying you dont know much about the SAS because those who you worked alongside never talked about their service, yet it was you who originally came on this thread to have a pop at them,your displaying classic symptoms of walting.

Wicklowrider

This has decended from reasoned discussion into farce.

I initially questioned opinions that the SAS represented the pinnacle of special forces ability.
Some of these examples were challenged and I learnt ( and acknowledged) several things.

I have changed my view of the patrol south of the border incident - on reading up on it I now believe the SAS acted responsibly and honourably and people are alive because of this.
Don't know why anyone didn't beat me to this. - but hey, why use reason when cheap shots come naturally?
I mentioned my service only because twinytwo referred to me as an armchair general ( something troubleshooter missed out on before accusing me)and I took this as saying I hadn't served. I am honestly at a loss as to why anyone would think I was spoofing - I did not make out that I have done anything special. Regarding vernacular/soldier speak - honestly, can you not get over yourselves?( btw its absolutely pathetic to hear civvies using this lingo). Its a 1/4 of a century since I soldiered, I have left it behind. A lot of the vernacular bandied around here was not used back then and any ex Irish D.F bloke from then would confirm that.
Checkpoints were simply checkpoints, static or mobile (MSGs anyone?)
Anyway genuine thanks to those of you who engaged in reasoned and educated discussion - twinytwo, you made an intelligent comment before taking a very low swipe at me personally - I am genuinely mystified why you chose to do that. But hey, its the internet and neither standards nor honour are mandatory.

Good luck and thanks,

Wicklowrider, OUT.

supersportq

troubleshooter wrote: »

Do you have a link to your claim that 2 terrorists escaped at Loughall?

While Coogan may have links to the PIRA, he has no links to the SAS or RUC to make such a claim, please post a link.

It was the PIRA who realeased a satement after Loughall claiming members had shot their way out of an ambush...total bs.

It's in Tim Pat Coogans book THE IRA. If your that interested just look up the index for Loughgall which has a paragraph on the ambush. Their's also some stuff on your 'hero' Nairac.

And are you seriously going to tell me if a highly respected journalist publishes something on the north and if it's not backed up by the RUC or SAS - it's not true You may come from a long line of RUC/UDR/B Specials in your family, but for God's sake don't expect any Irish nationalist to believe that crowd of sectarian liars :rolleyes:

troubleshooter wrote: »

Not true, the SAS killed 28 members of East Tyrone brigade in 5 yrs, how could killing their top bombers not have an effect on the PIRA, East Tyrone were heavily involved in supporting South Armagh brigade and in Fermanagh, this is where the decline happened, East Tyrone had fair low levels of terrorist attacks in the first place, 7 killings in 2 yrs, 11 in the following 2 yrs,your simply posting SF/PIRA Bs/spin.

"The SAS ambush had no noticeable long-term effect on the level of IRA activity in East Tyrone. In the two years prior to the Loughgall ambush the IRA killed 7 people in East Tyrone and North Armagh, and 11 in the two years following the ambush.[5] Ed Moloney, Irish journalist and author of the A Secret History of the IRA, states that the brigade lost 53 members killed in the Troubles - the highest of any 'Brigade' area. Of these, 28 were killed between 1987 and 1992.[6] Most of the attacks which took place in County Fermanagh during this period of the Troubles were also launched from Tyrone and Monaghan.[7]"

Wiki :rolleyes: BTW, does the above highlighted line not contradict you ?

troubleshooter wrote: »

Once again do you have links for your claims/bs? The SAS never claimed Niairac as one of theirs, as with all det/14 Int operators KIA his parent reg was given.

As stated Nairac was the poster boy of the SAS until his invovlement with the loyalists was exposed. If anyone ( beside yourself of course) wants to see how this 'hero' was reported in the media after his abduction in 1977 then read the chapter on it in Ireland:The Propaganda War by Liz Curtis.

supersportq

I wonder about SF in other parts of the world. Countries such as Japan and Korea that have a history of producing warriors and fighting men second to no one in the world. Here in Ireland we mostly here about the Green Berets, Navy Seals, SAS etc. I haven't any doubt that their are fighting men from other backgrounds well capable of going toe to toe with other SF's.

DylanJM

supersportq can you give a source confirming Nairac as a badged member of the SAS. Everything thing I've seen has him down as 14 int, Which is NOT the SAS. It had members of the SAS serving in it but was not exclusively made up of SAS.

angry_bob

supersportq wrote: »

Totally agree with you. Their the most hyped up military unit in the world, no doubt about it. propably because Britian can no longer go on about how to rule the waves etc so they have to make up some fairytale about thier military brillance :rolleyes:. Whenever you watch a documentary about them it's just themselves bragging about how great they are, they never question the men they fought against for their opinions. And every documentary about them is always described with words like "amazing" "incredible" "outstanding" etc, etc

I'd say the police SWAT team's in America have proven themselves in many, many more situations to be more profficent. Not saying they haven't made cockups either, but the amount of raids on crack houses, heavily armed criminal gangs etc on an almost weekly basis keeps them on the top of their game. Unlike the SAS who merely simulate it in Hereford and hype themselves about a shoot out with a few Iranian students 30 years ago.

You are a Grade A arse, aren't you.


TimPat Coogan is probably one of the most respected journalists in Ireland and a recognised authority on the IRA. I happen to believe such people and not SAS fairytales.

LOL, talk about works of fiction.


that crowd of sectarian liars

You said it yourself


You were shot down in your response to the French Foreign Legion thread, and you have no idea what you're talking about here.
You really should take up a hobby.

troubleshooter

supersportq wrote: »

I wonder about SF in other parts of the world. Countries such as Japan and Korea that have a history of producing warriors and fighting men second to no one in the world. Here in Ireland we mostly here about the Green Berets, Navy Seals, SAS etc. I haven't any doubt that their are fighting men from other backgrounds well capable of going toe to toe with other SF's.

I dont dispute the above. There is no way to prove which SOF is the "best" as it cant be measured but the facts are the SAS possibly the oldest surviving SOF in the world, it has seen more combat and has more experience then any other SOF in the world, it has pioneered many of the black op tactics used by SOF units and its recruits have possibly the most ardous selection process of any SOF unit.

ynotdu

TimPat Coogan is probably one of the most respected journalists in Ireland and a recognised authority on the IRA.

Have You read Tim Pat Coogans biography's of both Collins and Dev?
For obvious reasons Dev's is a far longer read.
He is without doubt a fine writer who research's his books,despite his best efforts though he was unable to be 'neutral' about what side He was on.{something an Historian should never do.}

I can't help thinking that the OP has been badly served by most replys to his question,the best respone's IMO were the one's who said "there is no definative answer to the question"

I merely posted the SAS raid on the Iranian Embassy video because it is so easy to find compared to other operations by Special Services in other Countries,It was not meant as an endorsement of any Country over another!

It was important too that many special services operations from whatever Country can be very hum-drum was pointed out.

Most important to remember is that any soldier,from any Country is a human being behind the mask who has no idea if He/She will survive their orders and come out alive!

In the Case of high risk operations it has to be remembered that a troop has a fraction of a second to distinguish between friend or foe,Kill or be killed,It is a wonder many more innocents don't die given this truth.

Since the event of Suicide terrorists things are even more difficult.

In the case of the loss of life in the in the Cinema held by Chechynayn rebels,the big balls up was there was not enough anti-dote to the poison used to knock suicide bombers and their hostage's out cold.

In the case of the School were Checynyn rebels killed so many kids,if the version is to be believed one of the terrorists accidently released the pressure pad he had his foot on and set off the unexpected explosion were action had to be taken instantly.{The only good that came from that day was the rebels lost the support of their community and have not been a problem since}

after the English terrorist attacks on the underground and the bus, advice was sought from the Israeli Military as to how to best respond to somebody You believe to be wrapped in explosives and ready to die by pulling a string even though it was not a 'shoot to kill' policy until Israel decided the only solution was to shoot straight to the head in order that a terrorists last act might be to pull on the chord bringing innocent civilians with them.

This led to the death of the poor guy from Brazil being shot through the head when He hopped the barrier carrying a backpack just so He would catch the train in time in order to be on time for work.{Don't forget how many died in the Spanish train bombings and the Looney suicide bombers in Bali}

It was a total failure of communications between the Security force's watching his block of flats and those based at the underground.
The meaness shown to his family by the UK Govt was disgraceful{and as an aside the meaness shown to the Ghurka's who had to fight for British passports despite their skills saving so many English lives throughout history}

In the case of the Iranian Embassy siege the operation was left entirely in charge of the police until the very patient negotiators requested that the SAS plan was put into operation{Everything had been done to bring everybody out alive as a police operation}

There is many case's of State sponsored Terrorism by Military forces throughout history and the world{Most Countries hands are not clean}
but that would be for the Politics forum.

Poccington

WicklowRider is an ex member of the PDF.

The next person to call him a Walt etc. purely because they disagree with him, will be dealt with accordingly.

troubleshooter

Heres footage of a classic SAS/14 Int coy ambush against the PIRA in NI, a vast amount of sustained fire into the vehicle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DipjwaH_2VA&feature=related





Heres a good film about the SAS in Oman, possibly the SAS's finest hour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c4-psnlKQU


one about the SAS role in the 77 Lufthansa hijacking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQevE34QoWo&feature=related

ynotdu

Poccington wrote: »

WicklowRider is an ex member of the PDF.

The next person to call him a Walt etc. purely because they disagree with him, will be dealt with accordingly.

Wicklowrider i am delighted You have been supported in the unjustified attacks on You.

also to add one more point to My previous post,i just don't understand people who whatever their political point of view could not see that in a purely Military manner the release of the hostages from the Iranian Embassy was an extraordinly feat of Statedgy and courage and well...........brilliance!

I am sure whoever was the leader of the IRA at the time even had a secret sneaking regard for the operation.

singling out the troop who got tangled in a rope for a short while is just begrudgery of pettiest kind.

If the Irish Rangers had been put into the same situation and had the same result,We would most likely have a bank holiday to celebrate it!

ynotdu

Lets not forget the thin line between life and death any rescue operation attempted by troops is,after the Shah of Iran had fallen and was replaced by Ayathollah Khomeni the US faced a terrible dilema and as usual it was its Military who had to pay the price.

although on a political level the interferance in Iranian internal affairs by the USA Govt was proably not right,The capture of the American Embassy in Tehran by the people who toppled the Shah and the holding hostage of the Embassys staff for 444 days was a cowardly act,and the eventual deciscion to forget negotiating by the then President Jimmy Carter to attempt to rescue the hostges and instead call on his troops ended up in their deaths.
The Humiliation of America forced the next President of the USA Ronald Reagan to warn diplomatic staff heading oversea's that they would have to accept they are putting themselves in harms way and become quasi Military as America felt it could not be held to randsome and humiliated like that ever again.

The first video {55 seconds long}is of shortwave radio recordings as the operation went wrong.

The second video is by the first Western reporter to arriave on the scene of where the plan came to grief.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXWyFHFhimA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxg6Krggx3I

Wicklowrider

ynotdu wrote: »

Wicklowrider i am delighted You have been supported in the unjustified attacks on You.!

Thanks. Hadn't time until to now to answer.

ynotdu wrote: »

whatever their political point of view could not see that in a purely Military manner the release of the hostages from the Iranian Embassy was an extraordinly feat of Statedgy and courage and well...........brilliance!.!

No political angle from me.. purely detached observations.

If Usain bolt showed up at your local school field and won the 100m would it impress you? 30 years later, if he was boasting about it wouldn't you think him a pratt? SAS was greatly superior force equipped , trained and experienced compared to the terrorists.Not eactly a fighting force to test the best force the brits could field?
The embassy raid made great T.V. It was undoubtly a major coup in propaganda even if the raid achieved noble ends.I am amazed that this packaged version, designed for everyman on the street is repeated verbatim now by informed, intelligent and experienced commentators - the spin doctors must be delighted!

ynotdu wrote: »

singling out the troop who got tangled in a rope for a short while is just begrudgery of pettiest kind.!

Come on now - he's a big lad!
Did the trooper himself ever speak about this incident? I have never read or heard anything he said.

The point isn't that he was in trouble. The point is that this too was spun.
If you are hanging upside down I don't think you could cut yourself free. If you are hanging upside down, your legs don't get burned without your head and upper body getting burnt - does this make sense?
At the time it was reported by eye witnesses that a man was seen dangling from rope and was cut down after the raid. Fair enough - we all know things go wrong. Then, much later the boy's own verson came out.
Super trooper cuts himself free ( presumably falls aprx 10 feet onto his head) and despite burns, re enters the fray. I suppose its remotely possible but it is not how the incident was reported by Tony Geraghty ( ex para and award winning military and security journalist) and all the creditable press of the time.

ynotdu wrote: »

If the Irish Rangers had been put into the same situation and had the same result,We would most likely have a bank holiday to celebrate it!

I know you are half kidding here but I don't think so.
The tiny amount that has been published about them seems to suit their ends. Joe public doesn't even know ( or care) about the hostage rescue in Liberia. They put on a good show in Dublin at the 1916 commerations a few years ago. You could tell they didn't take themselves over seriously and they were gas interacting with the kids. Only time I've seen them as a unit.

Thanks again for views.

Local-womanizer

Regarding the guy hanging and getting burned,I recall seeing a show and I am almost sure he dident free himself,yet it took the whole squad to cut him down and save him.

He wasnt hanging directly upside down either afaik,rather at an angle with one have of his body hanging over the window and the other half not over the window,hence the burning on his legs.

DylanJM

Wicklowrider I'm still struggling to find what point your trying to make about the embassy assault. A hostage situation is a diffucult mission to undertake no matter how badly equipped or trained the terrorists are. It's also difficult no matter which SOF you are. I don't really think there is such a thing as an easy mission when it comes to a situation like that. Could you,maybe, elaborate on why you think the SAS performed badly during the mission? The embassy seige occured during a time where previous experience in missions similar to it was very limited. I think the only similar situation the SAS(well 2 soldiers) were involved in before the embassy was this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Flight_181#Operation_Feuerzauber_.28Fire_Magic.29

Re: the trooper tangled.

From what I've heard on documentaries and read,

-The tropper was abseiling
-Got tangled and ended up hanging upside doen
-Flashbang thrown through a window set curtains on fire
-His leg got burnt from the fire
-A trooper above him cut him free and he landed on the balcony
-He continued with the mission

I don't think that sounds too unreasonable, I mean, he wasn't going to not continue on, which would have put the success of the mission at stake.

At the end of the day all the hostages were released alive(EDIT: Actually one died during the assault) after the mission and no SAS were killed. How is that not a success. Of course thigs will never go flawlessly but you can't expect them to either. Despite how the media and eejits like mcnab and Ryan would have you believe, the SAS are NOT supermen and ARE capable of mistakes. However they are some the best trained soldiers around and are doing a fine job over in Afghanistan.

Wicklowrider

DylanJM wrote: »

Could you,maybe, elaborate on why you think the SAS performed badly during the mission?

They didn't perform badly.You caught me dopey before so I'll be careful:)
I don't think I said they underperformed in embassy,failed or what ever. I struggled to make the point as clearly as possible that it wasn't the mighty battle that has become lore. The terrorists had no plan,scheme of defense or even basic grasp of tactics.Interviews with hostages state at least 2 had hands on head and were sitting down etc.NB I am not interested in defending the terrorists - they asked for trouble and got it.

DylanJM wrote: »

Re: the trooper tangled.

From what I've heard on documentaries and read,

-The tropper was abseiling
-Got tangled and ended up hanging upside doen
-Flashbang thrown through a window set curtains on fire
-His leg got burnt from the fire
-A trooper above him cut him free and he landed on the balcony
-He continued with the mission .

My contention with this is that this version came out later, wasn't reported by the reputable news at the time etc. If you look at geraghty's account for instance theres simply no mention of either burns nor trooper rejoining battle. I mention geraghty because we know he was a trained soldier and also a respected journalist and writer of objective well researched books on this subject. I mention all this to support my contention that a lot of what is taken as accurate accounts of what went on that day is propoganda at its best.

DylanJM wrote: »

At the end of the day all the hostages were released alive after the mission and no SAS were killed. How is that not a success. Of course thigs will never go flawlessly but you can't expect them to either. Despite how the media and eejits like mcnab and Ryan would have you believe, the SAS are NOT supermen and ARE capable of mistakes. However they are some the best trained soldiers around and are doing a fine job over in Afghanistan.

Hostages rescued - respect that, if I'd been a hostage I'd probably be kissing their boots. Agree f/ups happen. Ha -Ha disagree about mcnab,ryan etc - you got to hand it to 'em, they're making a few bob.:)
Afghanistan?
" Serious injuries have left more than 70 unable to fight, while 12 have been killed. It means the forces have lost about a sixth of their full combat capacity." Sunday Times article,March 7, 2010. NB - I think this is refferring to SBS and SAS casualties.
http://info-wars.org/2010/03/07/sas-in-afghanistan-suffers-worst-losses-for-60-years/
I have very little info on afghanistan and honestly don't know where everyone else gets theirs from. I really can't comment on action there - but I suspect its hell.

DylanJM

My contention with this is that this version came out later, wasn't reported by the reputable news

I'm guessing it happened at the back of the embassy, due to there being no photos or videos of a tangled trooper. The SAS wouldn't have commented on the operation afterwords either. Just throwing out some possible emplanations there. I can't remember which docu I heard about it in, but I'm pretty sure it was a SAS tropper involved in the assault who was talking about the tangled tropper. I know you have to take some stuff with a pinch of salt but it seemed genuine enough.

I will concede there is a lot of propaganda BS out there regarding the SAS though.

elius

Wicklowrider wrote: »

" Serious injuries have left more than 70 unable to fight, while 12 have been killed. It means the forces have lost about a sixth of their full combat capacity." Sunday Times article,March 7, 2010. NB - I think this is refferring to SBS and SAS casualties.
http://info-wars.org/2010/03/07/sas-in-afghanistan-suffers-worst-losses-for-60-years/
I have very little info on afghanistan and honestly don't know where everyone else gets theirs from. I really can't comment on action there - but I suspect its hell.

Thats since 2001 and they have been in battle the hole time 12 dead and 70 injured to march 2010 is to be honest fairly good going.

If your told your good at something you 9 times out of 10 get a great deal of satisfaction out of it. At time's i reckon it a mental way of spurring the sas/sbs on mentally it builds them up in confidence.

If your repeatedly told your **** then eventually the head drops.


To be honest there's no way in judging are they overated as where only looking at stories in the public media. Stories blown out to give the public the conception that there **** hot. Id rather read about some of the operations that the public have yet to hear of.

I no for shore if i was going into battle id rather them buy my side any day.

troubleshooter

Wicklow lowrider the guy who got tangled and burned absailing was a guy called Staff Sgt 'Tak' Takavesi one of the SASs most experienced troopers, he was also with the SAS in Oman when 9 of them held of 300 communist insurgents, by coincidence he was also in the unit that was arrested in the republic in 77 across the border. Absailing down a building in 50lbs of Black kit with a respirator, an MP5 etc, at speed is very different then doing it as a civilian. The team could not just cut him down straight away because he would have landed on his head. Just like you did not at first comprehend the concept of sustained fire in a linerar ambush, perhaps you may may now comprehend the complications of such an operation, it surprises me that you dont, being a former NCO etc. The "students" by the way had murdered a hostage one hour before and were armed with various weapons and grenades.


http://www.britains-smallwars.com/swbooks/the%20regiment/extract_siege.html

At the back Blue Team couldn't blow in the ground-floor doors for fear of injuring Staff-Sergeant 'Tak' Takavesi who had stuck on his rope five metres down and was now dangling above them. 'Tak' roared to the men still on the roof to cut him down. The rest of his team landed on the second-floor balcony. They demolished the windows with sledgehammers and lobbed flashbangs into the room. A second later they were inside. Their grenades had set the curtains ablaze and as the fire licked upwards, it enveloped the hanging team-leader's legs. 'Tak' kicked frantically outwards to avoid being roasted alive.

Norwayviking

kevinhalvey wrote: »

ive been doing a good bit of re-search about all different special forces such as german ksk irish rangers delta force polish Polskie Jednostki Specjalne australian sasr etc

as far as i have made out they all use very similar or the same tactics in hostage rescue . but out of them all the sas are always most regarded

in my opinion they are overrated because all the other special forces are just as elite but underestimated i personally think its because the eng sas are the only ones who have been deployed into major hostage negoiations

i would like to hear other peoples opinions on them and others

SAS are training with ~FSK Norwegian special forces,and not all the training are similar.
Just an example
Parachute landings on oil platforms in the North Sea
Testimony in court and in the media, indicates that training previously included parachute landings on helicopter landing-pads related to oil platforms.The SAS(special forces from Britain) considered such as suicide missions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsvarets_Spesialkommando_(FSK)

But when it comes to experience i dont think you will find any better then SAS.
Not even the US navy seals will come close in my opinion.
The only difference is that the us navy seals are better equipped for their missions with all the newest technology.
But i guess all special forces are based on their own countries defence forces and traning,so alot to do with the landscape,climate,economy,survival,weapons and special ops training.
And offcourse branches of navy,army,airforce.

Wicklowrider

troubleshooter wrote: »

Wicklow lowrider the guy who got tangled and burned absailing was a guy called Staff Sgt 'Tak' Takavesi one of the SASs most experienced troopers, he was also with the SAS in Oman when 9 of them held of 300 communist insurgents, by coincidence he was also in the unit that was arrested in the republic in 77 across the border. Absailing down a building in 50lbs of Black kit with a respirator, an MP5 etc, at speed is very different then doing it as a civilian. The team could not just cut him down straight away because he would have landed on his head. Just like you did not at first comprehend the concept of sustained fire in a linerar ambush, perhaps you may may now comprehend the complications of such an operation, it surprises me that you dont, being a former NCO etc. The "students" by the way had murdered a hostage one hour before and were armed with various weapons and grenades.


http://www.britains-smallwars.com/swbooks/the%20regiment/extract_siege.html

At the back Blue Team couldn't blow in the ground-floor doors for fear of injuring Staff-Sergeant 'Tak' Takavesi who had stuck on his rope five metres down and was now dangling above them. 'Tak' roared to the men still on the roof to cut him down. The rest of his team landed on the second-floor balcony. They demolished the windows with sledgehammers and lobbed flashbangs into the room. A second later they were inside. Their grenades had set the curtains ablaze and as the fire licked upwards, it enveloped the hanging team-leader's legs. 'Tak' kicked frantically outwards to avoid being roasted alive.

Troublemaker, I like the way you add a snide bit to my user name each time - it shows you care. You getting emotional about this stuff?:D

I don't know where you the idea that I don't understand ambush - it isn't complicated. I think the fact that I pointed out that SAS trigger happy lunatics shot innocent people that particular night upset you. I honestly believe the sas and provos would be stupid enough to kill each other till kingdom come if someone didn't reign both sides in. We seem to agree on what happened to the Tak chap so I'll leave that. Why are you challenging me on the terrorists? I made it clear as I could that I felt they got what they deserved.
Came across the small wars website in checking stuff for this thread - who are the guys behind it are they credible?
thanks
Wicklow low low low diet version rider

Wicklowrider

elius wrote: »

Thats since 2001 and they have been in battle the hole time 12 dead and 70 injured to march 2010 is to be honest fairly good going.

If your told your good at something you 9 times out of 10 get a great deal of satisfaction out of it. At time's i reckon it a mental way of spurring the sas/sbs on mentally it builds them up in confidence.

If your repeatedly told your **** then eventually the head drops.


To be honest there's no way in judging are they overated as where only looking at stories in the public media. Stories blown out to give the public the conception that there **** hot. Id rather read about some of the operations that the public have yet to hear of.

I no for shore if i was going into battle id rather them buy my side any day.

Agree with you on all of this. Some sobering quotes in that article. I've said it before - you will never hear me gloating over casualties.

elius

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Agree with you on all of this. Some sobering quotes in that article. I've said it before - you will never hear me gloating over casualties.

Though for the record. 12 dead and 70 injured is still to many. I just think given the environment there in its a testament to how good and well trained they are.

ynotdu

DylanJM wrote: »

I'm guessing it happened at the back of the embassy, due to there being no photos or videos of a tangled trooper. The SAS wouldn't have commented on the operation afterwords either. Just throwing out some possible emplanations there. I can't remember which docu I heard about it in, but I'm pretty sure it was a SAS tropper involved in the assault who was talking about the tangled tropper. I know you have to take some stuff with a pinch of salt but it seemed genuine enough.

I will concede there is a lot of propaganda BS out there regarding the SAS though.

Just a quick jump in,There was Camera's at the back of the Embassy.

I think it was ITN,they hired a room from flats that could see the back of the Embassy.The footage was not shown live and ITN{if i am right that it was ITN} were heavily criticised when they released it.
It showed troops being dropped from helicopters by rope but possibly because it was not live the Soldier who got tangled never appeared in the versions i have seen,When i can i will try to find the film of the operation from those angles!

if they wernt any good they wouldnt still be around

DylanJM

It showed troops being dropped from helicopters by rope

There were no helos involved in getting troops onto the embassy.

Maybe your confusing it with this SBS vid http://www.eliteukforces.info/video/sbs-3.php

ynotdu

DylanJM wrote: »

There were no helos involved in getting troops onto the embassy.

Maybe your confusing it with this SBS vid http://www.eliteukforces.info/video/sbs-3.php

Thanks for that DylanJM and the video below reinforces Your point.
It also shows that troops did drop by rope but as You say not by helicopter and shows that there were Camera's at the back of the Embassy.

I waded through loads of video's but could not find any of the footage taken{around the back during the actual operation{what i did find was a load of bull**** either home made video.s or extracts from Jingoistic crowing documentries that nobody here seems to like!}

I was not even born when this Siege happened,but i inherited My fathers tapes,he had a love of modern history and recorded many dramatic events,most of the tapes are decayed now having been stored near magnetic speakers,i am guessing it was on one of those tapes i saw it?

Some of his Tales i have learned were erm very tall ones!:)
He claimed the Embassy World snooker Championship finals were interrupted by the live coverage of the rescue.I know i had to 'unlearn' many of his versions of modern history!:)

again sorry OP,there are video's comparing say Delta force to the SAS,all around Youtube but they are either rubbish by amateurs, or bigoted one sided garbage by the likes of Fox news.none i found worthy of posting!

DylanJM

It also shows that troops did drop by rope but as You say not by helicopter and shows that there were Camera's at the back of the Embassy.

That video is NOT of the embassy seige and therefore doesn't show anything regarding cameras etc. at the iranian embassy. It's of the Kuwaiti embassy during desert storm. I was just seeing,maybe, if that was the video you saw and mistook it for the Iranian embassy. Sorry for the misunderstanding, just me trying to clear things up but ,as usual, making even worse

ynotdu

DylanJM wrote: »

That video is NOT of the embassy seige and therefore doesn't show anything regarding cameras etc. at the iranian embassy. It's of the Kuwaiti embassy during desert storm. I was just seeing,maybe, if that was the video you saw and mistook it for the Iranian embassy. Sorry for the misunderstanding, just me trying to clear things up but ,as usual, making even worse

Lol,No You did,nt confuse the issue,I did realise Your clip was of a diffrient operation.

I am talking about the History Channel video i posted that for a short few moments shows camera angles behind the Embassy:)

Cheers!

DylanJM

Oh right sorry. Got mixed up,didn't know you were refering to your video and not mine haha.

troubleshooter

Heres a good one, SBS and possibly SAS boat troop boarding a hovering Chinook in a rigid raider.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9pA4I606No&feature=related

I was down in Dorset a few weeks ago, near where the Royal Marines are based, about a mile of the coast a black hurcules (presumably part of the RAF SOF sqdn dropped four parachutists at low level, which were picked by a rigid raiders, every half hour this countinued for the afternoon, but it was a normal looking hurcules after that). This is quite a normal sight down that way, there were yachts and other craft in the area.

The SBS also train with these guys alot in Scotland. MEIKTILA COMMANDO FORWARD OBSERVATION BATTERY Royal Artillery, who are SAS trained but not badged.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W--ax_IxTHA

ynotdu

Finally a video of the SAS member who got tangled at the back of the Embassy.You only have to watch the first minute{These things wreck My head until i get some confirmation:)}
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66tmvFutBfs&NR=1

troubleshooter

Trying to get away from the SAS dont know how to carry out an ambush posts which due to the nature of the net making one respond in the opposite way. I dont know how any SOF CRW unit would deal with simple but hidden booby traps? Ie Fishing wire/tape/grenades across doorways/stairwells/windows etc, in the dark, in respirators, in smoke/cs gas etc? Remember they are operating at speed. Or even determined terrorists holding key positions on stairwells etc without taking losses.

If there is one point to be raised about the above seige, its that ladders may have done the job more simply and effectivly then absailing, in recent times SOF units have vehicles with ladders attached for gaining fast entry.

Hard to believe it was 30 yrs ago.

elius

ynotdu wrote: »

Finally a video of the SAS member who got tangled at the back of the Embassy.You only have to watch the first minute{These things wreck My head until i get some confirmation:)}
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66tmvFutBfs&NR=1

I cant see how this makes the SAS any better or worse.

If your trying to make them look bad its a pretty poor excuse. No one know's the ins and outs as to why or how he got tangled up in the rope whats to say it wasn't faulty equipment.

Infact its stupid and ignorant to bring the abilty of the SAS down just because one man got tangled in a rope. The same man who was awarded the the Distinguished Conduct Medal some years previous after the events of Oman

ynotdu

elius wrote: »

I cant see how this makes the SAS any better or worse.

If your trying to make them look bad its a pretty poor excuse. No one know's the ins and outs as to why or how he got tangled up in the rope whats to say it wasn't faulty equipment.

Infact its stupid and ignorant to bring the abilty of the SAS down just because one man got tangled in a rope. The same man who was awarded the the Distinguished Conduct Medal some years previous after the events of Oman

elius Would You please go to the trouble of reading My previous posts before passing comments like that!

You might even apologise if You do!

elius

ynotdu wrote: »

elius Would You please go to the trouble of reading My previous posts before passing comments like that!

You might even apologise if You do!

ynotdu I wasn't getting at you personally. I was referring to previous comments in the thread. Apologies if you feel it was directed at you. I just happened to quote your thread. Apologies again.

troubleshooter

Going back to ambushes, SAS/Det ambushes could be very devious, they simply used PIRA tactics against them. Example there was a UDR part time soldier, who also drove a school bus, Special branch and army intel. knew he was being targetted and PIRA intel gathered on his movements, the SAS simply replaced him with an SAS trooper, drove the bus to a local republican village and pretended it had a flat tyre, local republican dickers(intel. gatherers) noticed this, after 90 mins a PIRA ASU turned up to kill him, but he was simply the bait for an SAS ambush. The PIRA ASU members were shot dead, such operations devistated PIRA moral and they needed spectaculars to sustain it.

In terms of green ops theres a site out there with some of the jungle warfare advanced fieldcraft and ambushes the SAS pioneered in the 50s in Malaya, and used by the Aussie SAS in Vietnam to devisting effect, they used to get dropped by helo on 10 day patrols in enemy territory, some are very complex and involve baiting the enemy then doubling, even trebling back with loops to enfilade. No coincidence the Aussie and NZ SAS had the best record of kills in Vietnam. Some of the best SAS jungle warfare instructors are Fijians, previously Malayan scouts who joined the regiment.

Wicklowrider

elius wrote: »

ynotdu I wasn't getting at you personally. I was referring to previous comments in the thread. Apologies if you feel it was directed at you. I just happened to quote your thread. Apologies again.

Aimed at me?

If so please read my post #64

"The point isn't that he was in trouble. The point is that this too was spun"

stupid and ignorant? Go easy, it isn't a slagging match.

elius

Wicklowrider wrote: »

ER, re the embassy action - wasn't that the one where a SAS head landed up hanging upside down from his rappelling rope swinging like a pendulum?

Im sorry if you took my above post to heart but just look at the past record of the man that was hanging upside down from his rappelling rope swinging like a pendulum. Im not into slagging matches and apologies for calling you stupid.

You also have to look up the records of the us seal teams. They have made some mighty cock up's in there time. Operation Redwing didnt exactly so to plan either

Local-womanizer

On the ladder issue,I think that was raised but some objections were raised aswell ( I'am not sure,I really must watch that Discovery Programme on it again)

The show was that "SAS,Special Forces Heroes" one,I thought it was a good series to be fair, and the men involved never really bigged themselves up in it to the extent were it was unwatchable.IIRC one of the main issues involved in the Iranian embassy Siege episode was how close the mission was to disaster.

Wicklowrider

Local-womanizer wrote: »

On the ladder issue,I think that was raised but some objections were raised aswell ( I'am not sure,I really must watch that Discovery Programme on it again)

The show was that "SAS,Special Forces Heroes" one,I thought it was a good series to be fair, and the men involved never really bigged themselves up in it to the extent were it was unwatchable.IIRC one of the main issues involved in the Iranian embassy Siege episode was how close the mission was to disaster.

That doc was, in my opinion as accurate as you'd get.

Agree they spoke fairly - the very reason I wondered earlier if "Tak" ever spoke on interview.

BTW - he was in action in 2003 Iraq, albeit ex sas at this stage. http://bit.ly/bhVNRz

"Tak was among 200 Fijians recruited to the British army in the 1960s"

Almost 40 years before this action!!!!

APOLOGIES for bringing him into this - feel foolish now.

Man has had some career and put up fierce fight here.

MrConservative

The Embassy op is now 30 years ago. Happening only 7 years after de Billiere finally got the green light and then not a hell of a lot of money, to develop a specialised CT capability in the UK armed forces. This gentleman is not something you can buy, though good funding does give a technical edge. It takes many years to develop and train a CT capability to a constistently high standard. What the SAS achieved 30 years ago in both the context and standards of the time was absolutely impressive. The British SAS first and then soon after its two other commonwealth cousins, have been in the CT business since the mid 1970's and have incomparable shared institutional knowledge across the full gambit of specialised operations involving armed force in the decades preceding it to back it up.

The fact is that you cannot extrapolate a 30 year old operation that was conducted in the infancy of modern CT ops into a 21st Century context. Just as you can also not base opinions of an operations success or failings on media content such as DVD's or indeed published open source information to get an appreciation of the capability of any first tier specialised force.

Are they the UK SAS (or any first tier specialised force) overated? Franky, they wouldn't have the time to care. It is not about how physically tough one is either. You can find tougher people than the average trooper here and there. However, it is about the knowledge of the institution and how that institution applies its knowlege and most significantly and this is where the SAS excel, is learning from its knowledge.

PatsytheNazi

Local-womanizer wrote: »

On the ladder issue,I think that was raised but some objections were raised aswell ( I'am not sure,I really must watch that Discovery Programme on it again)

The show was that "SAS,Special Forces Heroes" one,I thought it was a good series to be fair, and the men involved never really bigged themselves up in it to the extent were it was unwatchable.IIRC one of the main issues involved in the Iranian embassy Siege episode was how close the mission was to disaster.

Watched about 20 minutes of it myself and turned over. The usual self praise and self glorification and a totally uncritical film crew. Any elite regiment could make out that they were so prefectly good in the same circumstances.

Local-womanizer

Wicklowrider wrote: »

That doc was, in my opinion as accurate as you'd get.

Agree they spoke fairly - the very reason I wondered earlier if "Tak" ever spoke on interview.

BTW - he was in action in 2003 Iraq, albeit ex sas at this stage. http://bit.ly/bhVNRz

"Tak was among 200 Fijians recruited to the British army in the 1960s"

Almost 40 years before this action!!!!

APOLOGIES for bringing him into this - feel foolish now.

Man has had some career and put up fierce fight here.

I thought the same too,imo it was a very well put together show,cheers for that link. Loved the bit he pretended to surrender,let them get close and open up on them!

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Watched about 20 minutes of it myself and turned over. The usual self praise and self glorification and a totally uncritical film crew. Any elite regiment could make out that they were so prefectly good in the same circumstances.

Regarding the Iranian Embassy siege,as I said the main point was the fact the success of the mission was on a constant knife edge,and at no time was it going to be a cake-walk. In my view they highlighted their mistakes made in recon,not spotting the glass dome until they actually got up to the roof.

On the self praise stuff,the way I see it is thats the way any SF unit is,indeed any military unit is. Sure you even seen it within our own DF with anyone with a Beret on thinking they are in the best unit going! It would be natural human
behaviour,what with all the training they go through. Multiply that ten fold for a SF unit.

PatsytheNazi

troubleshooter wrote: »

Going back to ambushes, SAS/Det ambushes could be very devious, they simply used PIRA tactics against them. Example there was a UDR part time soldier, who also drove a school bus, Special branch and army intel. knew he was being targetted and PIRA intel gathered on his movements, the SAS simply replaced him with an SAS trooper, drove the bus to a local republican village and pretended it had a flat tyre, local republican dickers(intel. gatherers) noticed this, after 90 mins a PIRA ASU turned up to kill him, but he was simply the bait for an SAS ambush. The PIRA ASU members were shot dead, such operations devistated PIRA moral and they needed spectaculars to sustain it.

Well they could be devious but the Provos were no sitting ducks and it often back fired on them or completely innocent people were killed by them. Their was a myriad of undercover organisations in the north during the troubles such as 14 Intelligence, Military Reconnaissance Force (MRF), Force Reaction Unit (FRU), RUC Special Branch, MI5 etc Whenever one of these shadowy organisations pulled off a successful operation, eg. Loughgall, the media always credited the SAS for it, when it went wrong and some of their operatives got killed or exposed, it was put down to "undercover soldiers".

Take for example the MRF ( Military Reconnaissance Force). Based at Palace Barracks, County Down it is believed that soldiers from elite regiments, including the Special Air Service (SAS) made up its members. During the early 1970s the unit set up the Four Square Laundry in Belfast which offered a cheap cleaning service but was intended to collect information about IRA activities in west Belfast. Clothes sent for cleaning were routinely checked for traces of explosives or lead residues from bullets. The IRA subsequently found out about the MRF operation and on 2 October 1972 attacked a laundry van being used to collect and deliver clothes. The British army admitted one " undercover soldier " was shot dead while the IRA claimed that three were killed.

Then there was 16 year old John Boyle. He had found an IRA arms dump near Dunloy, County Antrim and his family had reported the matter to the (RUC). The RUC, together with the British Army, took the decision to monitor the dump in the hope that members of the IRA would return to it. John Boyle's curiosity must have taken him back unsuspectingly to the dump and the "undercover soldiers" shot the 16 year old dead. No one was ever prosecuted. As I said, if it went rightt it was credited to the SAS, if it went wrong it was blamed on undercover soldiers.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/cgi-bin/dyndeaths.pl?querytype=date&day=11&month=07&year=1978

troubleshooter

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Well they could be devious but the Provos were no sitting ducks and it often back fired on them or completely innocent people were killed by them. Their was a myriad of undercover organisations in the north during the troubles such as 14 Intelligence, Military Reconnaissance Force (MRF), Force Reaction Unit (FRU), RUC Special Branch, MI5 etc Whenever one of these shadowy organisations pulled off a successful operation, eg. Loughgall, the media always credited the SAS for it, when it went wrong and some of their operatives got killed or exposed, it was put down to "undercover soldiers".

Take for example the MRF ( Military Reconnaissance Force). Based at Palace Barracks, County Down it is believed that soldiers from elite regiments, including the Special Air Service (SAS) made up its members. During the early 1970s the unit set up the Four Square Laundry in Belfast which offered a cheap cleaning service but was intended to collect information about IRA activities in west Belfast. Clothes sent for cleaning were routinely checked for traces of explosives or lead residues from bullets. The IRA subsequently found out about the MRF operation and on 2 October 1972 attacked a laundry van being used to collect and deliver clothes. The British army admitted one " undercover soldier " was shot dead while the IRA claimed that three were killed.

Then there was 16 year old John Boyle. He had found an IRA arms dump near Dunloy, County Antrim and his family had reported the matter to the (RUC). The RUC, together with the British Army, took the decision to monitor the dump in the hope that members of the IRA would return to it. John Boyle's curiosity must have taken him back unsuspectingly to the dump and the "undercover soldiers" shot the 16 year old dead. No one was ever prosecuted. As I said, if it went rightt it was credited to the SAS, if it went wrong it was blamed on undercover soldiers.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/cgi-bin/dyndeaths.pl?querytype=date&day=11&month=07&year=1978

Actually when undercover soldiers were shot dead, their parent regiment was given as 14 Int coy (now the SRR) was a covert unit. This unit also had G Squadron SAS as part of it but it only made up about a fifth of 14 Int Coy, others came from other army units, the RAF reg and RMs. But the SAS did establish and run 14 Int coy.

John Boyle, obviously that was a tragedy, but returning to an arms dump he had discovered and soldiers were mounting a covert/Reactive OP at at 6am, was an act of folly and a tragedy, the soldiers did not know who John Boyle was, they most likely throught he was a PIRA member, the soldier claimed he throught he saw a a weapon pointed towards him at the inquest, which was disputed, at the inquest the soldiers were criticised, but thats a long way from murder.




http://www.eliteukforces.info/the-det/

PatsytheNazi

troubleshooter wrote: »

John Boyle, obviously that was a tragedy, but returning to an arms dump he had discovered and soldiers were mounting a covert/Reactive OP at at 6am, was an act of folly and a tragedy, the soldiers did not know who John Boyle was, they most likely throught he was a PIRA member, the soldier claimed he throught he saw a a weapon pointed towards him at the inquest, which was disputed, at the inquest the soldiers were criticised, but thats a long way from murder.

Yeah, we've heard that sh!t too many times down the years, when someone was casually walking down the street, Derry 1972, Croke Park 1920 etc, etc

troubleshooter

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Yeah, we've heard that sh!t too many times down the years, when someone was casually walking down the street, Derry 1972, Croke Park 1920 etc, etc

Someone going to an arms dump at 6am is not the same as walking down the street.

PatsytheNazi

troubleshooter wrote: »

Someone going to an arms dump at 6am is not the same as walking down the street.

Could you give me a proper link to show it was at 6.00 in the morning as I'm very skeptical of that. Besides, why not tell him to freeze and apprehend him as he entered the area instead of waiting for him to uncover the weapon and arming himself with a firearm and waiting for him to point at a coincidentally hidden soldier and then shooting him ?

If that's not a load of bolox then what is.

troubleshooter

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Could you give me a proper link to show it was at 6.00 in the morning as I'm very skeptical of that. Besides, why not tell him to freeze and apprehend him as he entered the area instead of waiting for him to uncover the weapon and arming himself with a firearm and waiting for him to point at a coincidentally hidden soldier and then shooting him ?

If that's not a load of bolox then what is.

Freeze is Starsky and Hutch , they through he was a PIRA member if they had apprehended him before he uncovered the arms, he would have simply said he was out for a walk, they had to catch him red handed, it was very early morning.