Anti-Americanism in Ireland

walrusgumble

SamHarris wrote: »

So people should be ashamed by things their country does but take no pride in its actions either? It should keep its nose out of things and tell countries like Israel to "cop on"?

Who said that America should be ashamed ? Find the words where that was suggested.

Clearly Americans don't give a **** what others think, fair enough, but don't come on here crying that some how Ireland is anti American (towards the politics as oppose to the people) if it disagrees with some of the things America stands for.

How the hell can America take pride in getting involved in wars by supplying arms, supporting leaders and later going out to kill them decades later when their use to America has expired. Wasn't Bin Laden once an ally? If you don't understand the criticism regarding American's stance with Israel, despite most other nations being reasonably critical of Israel towards Palestine, who clearly forgot to learn lessons of WW2, then we are wasting our time.

Again, as I and other posters kept saying, Most Irish people have no issue with the American people per se. The same could have even be said for those from mainland Britain (you analogy of Britain was hilariously simplistic)

SamHarris wrote: »

Do you even see what you did there?
You dont know what colonialism is, do you?

Eh, I am well aware of it actually ,Sam.

You can't see how American Foreign Policy is a modern form of colonization (albeit, often welcome, non militarized (direct and indirect )version that is) then you are blind and incredibly naive

SamHarris wrote: »

I have a strong feeling Irish media and people have an opinion on how Americans should act and think vastly more often than vica versa.

That opinion is based on the very values that America lecture the world on and pride itself on allegedly aiming to achieve. Don't come preaching if you don't practice what you preach.


Give us specific examples of this display of Anti American attitude.

saiint

i dont hate you guys
i just hate your accents
swear its like you have a blocked nose 24/7 haha although im friendly towards american tourists
they normaly ask me for directions
sadly i send them in the completely opposite way

crazy cabbage

I have nothing against american people.

2 of my best friends are american but they hate america. The other day in the pub (where else) they spent a good 30 mins giving out **** about (nearly) enverything about america.

Yes some of this has rubbed off on me but still try and be level headed.

VEN

ronano wrote: »

American tourists visiting trinity/book of kells = reason for the comment me thinks good sir

you imagine

SamHarris

pseudofax wrote: »

You can get into yale now by taking those exams? What percentage of the total native population of the USA attends these "top" universities? Significantly less than Top European Universities I would imagine, because (a) Honestly, your average American tend to be as dumb as a rock (b) Access to reasonably cheap quality Education in the USA is borderline impossible.

Problem?

Yes it is.

Well then you could guess away, but be wrong. Your really grasping at straws at this point and then entire practice reeks of an inferiority complex.

Maybe another measure of the intelligence of a society? More americans have won nobel prizes in science and medicine than the rest of the world combined. Really by any reasonable measure they accomplish intellectually time and again, if you believe this still indicates that "most of them" are dumb, knock yourself out and go compete with them. If you are right you will do well, no?

Yes, and yet a bigger percentage of them go to univeristy, including a larger percentage of those that are poor. I guess they just have a better attitude towards it.

You know you dont have to guess at everything and end up being wrong all the time? You can use a site called "google" will which give you actual answers, it really is wonderful. :rolleyes:

Why do I have the feeling that the vast majority of those with your attitude, if you were to have grown up in the states would be one of the "ugly americans" that people hate so much?

Shenshen

SamHarris wrote: »

More americans have won nobel prizes in science and medicine than the rest of the world combined.

I do hate having to do that, but:

331 US American winners of the Nobel Prize so far.
As many as the UK (115), Germany (102), France (64), Sweden (30) and Switzerland (26).

If you average this out over the entire population, that's not all that fantastic for the US.

SamHarris

Shenshen wrote: »

I do hate having to do that, but:

331 US American winners of the Nobel Prize so far.
As many as the UK (115), Germany (102), France (64), Sweden (30) and Switzerland (26).

If you average this out over the entire population, that's not all that fantastic for the US.

Thats why I said science and medicine, France for example have won alot, more than half however were in literature.

Perhaps the article I read only took those won after the war into account. Taking population into account is not exactly easy, given that population growth and who has the most population has changed so much over the time the nobel prizes have been given out.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-nobel-prize-winners-map.html

Shenshen

SamHarris wrote: »

Thats why I said science and medicine, France for example have won alot, more than half however were in literature.

Perhaps the article I read only took those won after the war into account. Taking population into account is not exactly easy, given that population growth and who has the most population has changed so much over the time the nobel prizes have been given out.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-nobel-prize-winners-map.html

14 of France's 64 winners won the literature prize. Well, 13 really, since Jean-Paul Sartre refused to accept his.
And while yes, population numbers have changed, it is rather fair to assume that at any given time the US had more inhabitants than the other countries I named.

Shenshen

By all means, if you feel the need to be proud of your country, do.
But please don't. Go around claiming things that aren't true... I remember a while back some US citizen on another forum claiming that the car, the TV and the computer were American inventions.
It's embarrassing for US Americans to be seen to feel the need to make themselves bigger than they are (no joke intended), and bloody embarrassing for the rest of us having to be impolite and correct them.

SamHarris

Shenshen wrote: »

14 of France's 64 winners won the literature prize. Well, 13 really, since Jean-Paul Sartre refused to accept his.
And while yes, population numbers have changed, it is rather fair to assume that at any given time the US had more inhabitants than the other countries I named.

Well the link I provided tells a different story, so I guess you can take it up with them. And seeing as though we are talking about the "intelligence" of present day nations its worth noting the percentage they have won in the last 60 years means they are far more dominant at the moment than even those statistics would indicate.

Also FYI in 1910 France and Germany each had about 2/3s the US population, the US takes so many immigrants in and has since its creation that you cannot linearly find what its population would have been in the past in the same way you can with other countries.

SamHarris

Shenshen wrote: »

By all means, if you feel the need to be proud of your country, do.
But please don't. Go around claiming things that aren't true... I remember a while back some US citizen on another forum claiming that the car, the TV and the computer were American inventions.
It's embarrassing for US Americans to be seen to feel the need to make themselves bigger than they are (no joke intended), and bloody embarrassing for the rest of us having to be impolite and correct them.

And its embarrassing to me as an Irish person to constantly hear about how "we ARE smarter than them yanks!" and then trying desperatly to explain away their success in any number of areas - to the point where saying they are not in first place but second or third seems like a victory. Its pretty clear it has more to do with a chip on peoples shoulder when it comes to their success than any real evaluation of what makes such a large group "clever" or "dumb".

Shenshen

SamHarris wrote: »

And its embarrassing to me as an Irish person to constantly hear about how "we ARE smarter than them yanks!" and then trying desperatly to explain away their success in any number of areas - to the point where saying they are not in first place but second or third seems like a victory. Its pretty clear it has more to do with a chip on peoples shoulder when it comes to their success than any real evaluation of what makes such a large group "clever" or "dumb".

They have more people that are smarter than the average Irish. And thy have more people who are dumber than the average Irish. It's a simple matter of numbers. They have more, so they have more on either end of the spectrum.

It's only whn some start going on about how much bigger/better/cleverer/everythingelser they are that they ruffle people's feathers.
That, and wondering why not everybody is utterly enamoured with them, which they then label "anti-Americanism".
At the end of the day, there's no such thing as anti-Germanism, anti-Frenchism, anti-Russianism... Not because there aren't people ho don't like these countries (there are plenty), but because the Germans, French and Russians simply do not care enough about being liked or not to make up a word for the concept.

Border-Rat

Le King wrote: »

Being Irish-American born in the US to Irish parents this is my point of view on the avid anti-American stance in Ireland.

I find it quite funny and hilariously sad the severe Anti-American stance in Ireland. Some people I meet in Ireland have some sort of hatred towards the States. For what reason, I can't comprehend. It makes no sense at all the fact that a lot of Irish people seem to think it's okay to hate America.

It makes no sense at all. Any Anti-American topic on here seems to go down well, but any topic regarding any any-British content seems to be a taboo subject for you guys.

I can't get my head around this fact that you hate us more than you hate the British. We have been the most accepting country of Irish immigrants, we are the country who love the Irish, yet we're hated.

We have never tried to colonize your country, obviously, yet the Anti-American bias holds stronger than the anti-British bias over here. That point is merely a comparison between ourselves and the British.

Can somebody shed some light on this for me? Why are Americans hated over here?

Any great reasons?

Brits are jealous of America. Ireland has west-brits, its cool to emulate their masters. Most people in Ireland who hate Irish Americans and America also disown Nationalists in the North.

They're scum, to sum up.

MrGeneric

Border-Rat wrote: »

Brits are jealous of America. Ireland has west-brits, its cool to emulate their masters. Most people in Ireland who hate Irish Americans and America also disown Nationalists in the North.

They're scum, to sum up.

A master class in argumentation.

LincolnsBeard

Killer Wench wrote: »

I am not sure if I believe that the Scots, Welsh, and Irish were in a strong position to view Natives as inferior; in many ways, within the first generations of migration, they really occupied the same lower societal rung as Indians. In fact, many people within my tribe "intermarried" with the Scottish and Irish.

Oh god here we go...



You're right. Only the English killed Native Americans. The Scots and Irish stood shoulder to shoulder with their tribal friends, united in a common goal against their tyrannical English overlords.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Its well documented that certain Irish Foremen were brutally hard on their Chinese workers during the railway works out west, vicious bastards trying to erase their inferiority complex on the next lowest in society. The Irish were not liked or welcomed by anybody in North America.

Reindeer

I'm an American. I wasn't born in America, nor was I born in Ireland. A large percentage of Americans are not born in America, and or have parents that were not born there. My mother was from Osaka, Japan of Japanese descent. My father was born in Claremore, Oklahoma, of German, and Cherokee descent. My grandmother was a Cherokee Indian from Claremore, Oklahoma - her family was originally from South Carolina before the 'Trail Of Tears'. My grandfather taught me German. I look first nations due to the mix in my blood. I have a Cherokee name given to me by my Grandmother. I am a typical, mixed blood, American.

Because of my appearance, I am constantly asked if I am first nations both abroad(especially in Ireland) and in the US. How am I supposed to respond? Shall I say that I am an American? This may be a surprise to some of the members here, but even in America, that's already assumed. When I am asked my 'nationality' by another American, what they are curious about is my heritage and ancestry. This is because nearly everyone in America can either trace their roots to somewhere else, either directly themselves, or within a few generations. In the US, this is an acceptable and very common way to start a conversation or small talk, or simply to settle curiosity.

I usually answer that I am of Cherokee descent, or part Cherokee, when asked if I am first nations. But I am careful not to say that I am a Cherokee Indian - because I am not. I am an American. This even though my Grandmother tells me that the Cherokee blood I have in my veins means I am a Cherokee, and that I must be proud to be Cherokee. It just doesn't feel like I am respecting my forefathers and my birthright to claim it in such a way. So I respect them by claiming I have part of their blood. So, I can somewhat understand where the Irish are coming from in the next paragraph here -

When an American says, "I'm Irish" they are not saying that they are Irish. Talking about ones heritage in the US is so common that it is assumed you are American, with Irish roots. That is all they are saying, and nothing more. This is an item that I have to answer to on a very regular basis when I am abroad; whether Ireland, England, Germany, or wherever. At first, as an American, it was odd to me that Irish folks had difficulty understanding this issue. It's just that as Americans, we are so used to people assuming that we mean it is our heritage, or our ancestry - part of who we are, not wholly what we are. And it is true - many Americans are very proud they are the product of those Irish that immigrated and added their hand to forging the USA. I don't see why they shouldn't be. When the Irish are at their best, they can accomplish great things. It is a heritage rightly to be proud of.

America is huge. It has three motorways alone that span over 3,000miles/4900KM. If you drove that distance from Dublin, you would end up in Moscow long before the highway ended, assuming your car was waterproof and bulletproof enough. We are a varied people, with varied cultures and heritage, and can not easily be painted with the same brush. I have personally visited over 30 states myself, and have found Americans differ quite a bit from town to town, state to state. I would be puzzled if the Cherokee nationals in Tahlequah, Oklahoma were 'hated' by Irish, or whomever. Much the same way as I would be puzzled if there were any Irish animosity for a Texan, originally from Mexico, working in a taco truck in San Antonio. Those are both Americans. Having lived in Texas most of my life, I consider myself a Texan. Does this mean I back George Bush, love guns, have a cowboy hat and boots, and own cattle, and am a war monger? Those are questions I am asked often by the Irish I meet.

Americans are often chided on their voting attendance. Then they are criticized for their international politics. We do not have a parliamentary power-sharing system. Presidential elections nearly are all-or-nothing affairs. This means that, at best, our president represents a minority of the American people in ideology. If you do not agree with the politics of the two most popular candidates, your vote is basically worthless. So, many Americans do not vote in Presidential elections, or 'throw their vote away' to unpopular candidates. I didn't like any candidates in the last several presidential elections, and did not vote. I did, however, vote in my local and state elections - where most Americans truly feel the presence of politics. Basically, what I am saying is when you have issues with American foreign affairs, keep in mind that most Americans have issues with it, too. As a Texan, I have profound issues with the Federal government, but those are best left to a political discussion.

As for the language; where to start. Americans have their own dictionary - Webster's. The English have the Oxford's and the Queens English. Shortly after winning independence, some Americans took it upon themselves to differentiate themselves from the English as much as possible. When Webster's dictionary began wide publication, it was not only an 'Americanized' version of English(though Webster wasn't exactly trying to accomplish precisely that), it was one of the few versions readily available, affordably. And thus, it caught on. Add in the fact that America was, and is, a mixing pot of several cultures, languages, etc etc, and Americans were bound to be different linguistically from their European brethren. Why an Irish man or woman would give an American a difficult time for not speaking correct Queen's English is somewhat bewildering for me. Though I question the judicature, being the person is Irish, I am more surprised in the defense of English. Or should I say, 'defence'? Or perhaps it may show the lengths one goes to for an insult. Or perhaps I am simply being too racist or too simplistic. It wouldn't be my first offense. Er.. offence. Bloody 'ell.

As far as intelligence and ignorance, I think a quick perusal of this thread alone will show that ignorance, pride, nationalism, and vitriol aren't necessarily monopolized by Americans. I love Ireland. I love the Irish(for better or worse). I must say I was saddened after having read this thread. However, I tell myself not to paint all Irish with the same brush. After all, I have said a few of the same things mentioned here about my fellow Americans. And I have met some very special people in my journeys in Ireland...

Kotek Besar

Reindeer wrote: »

I'm an American. I wasn't born in America, nor was I born in Ireland. A large percentage of Americans are not born in America, and or have parents that were not born there. My mother was from Osaka, Japan of Japanese descent. My father was born in Claremore, Oklahoma, of German, and Cherokee descent. My grandmother was a Cherokee Indian from Claremore, Oklahoma - her family was originally from South Carolina before the 'Trail Of Tears'. My grandfather taught me German. I look first nations due to the mix in my blood. I have a Cherokee name given to me by my Grandmother. I am a typical, mixed blood, American.

I bet you look well fit.

losthorizon

At least you are not German OP!

Killer Wench

LincolnsBeard wrote: »

Oh god here we go...



You're right. Only the English killed Native Americans. The Scots and Irish stood shoulder to shoulder with their tribal friends, united in a common goal against their tyrannical English overlords.

Now I didn't say that the Irish, Scottish, or Welsh were not responsible for killing Natives. I said that I do not believe they were in a strong enough position to view the Natives as inferior, because they were also perceived as inferior.

Many of the individuals killed at the Battle of Little Bighorn were actually Irish born soldiers who joined the American army and participated in the genocide of Native communities.

omgitsthelazor

Majority of people here like America, there are pockets of anglicised folk in this country. You hear the same about dislike for the Germans as well from the west brit brigade, I wouldn't pay too much attention to them.

hatrickpatrick

My view, again:
American people are absolutely fine.
America as a country needs to cop itself on and follow its own "all men are created equal" declaration.

Is this Anti American? Again, I have no problem whatsoever with the American public.

Equating hatred of America's international presence as hatred of the country itself is moronic. It's exactly as stupid as people internally in America who claim that not supporting America's foreign policy = not being a patriotic American.

It's an extremely dangerous political precedent, to suggest that one has to support a government or else one is racist.

MrGeneric

omgitsthelazor wrote: »

Majority of people here like America, there are pockets of anglicised folk in this country. You hear the same about dislike for the Germans as well from the west brit brigade, I wouldn't pay too much attention to them.

Blaming the British is a deflection. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to dislike American policy and influence that don't involve nationalism. However, if nationalism is the prism through which you view the world, you may be blind to them.

Galwayguy35

I've no problems with Americans. Indeed here in Galway it's the US companies who are the big employers. If they pulled out in the morning there would be alot more on the dole.
Most of the people who are anti american are the same ones who like to sit in a tent for 6 months "making their voice heard" :rolleyes:

Ms.M

Stupid people are always dangerous but they're more dangerous when they come from the most powerful country in the world. You won't find many dumb people in Ireland who think they are the centre of the universe or would justify other peoples' suffering as "for the good of our country." We have the same ratio of dumb people everywhere but American dumb people are just in a position to do a lot of damage imo.
I'm not pro-American in terms of a lot of foreign policy but a lot of Americans aren't either. Is that what you mean by anti-Americanism?

Hatrickpatrick: Equating hatred of America's international presence as hatred of the country itself is moronic. It's exactly as stupid as people internally in America who claim that not supporting America's foreign policy = not being a patriotic American.

It's an extremely dangerous political precedent, to suggest that one has to support a government or else one is racist.

Very true.

Galwayguy35

Ms.M wrote: »

Stupid people are always dangerous but they're more dangerous when they come from the most powerful country in the world. You won't find many dumb people in Ireland who think they are the centre of the universe or would justify other peoples' suffering as "for the good of our country." We have the same ratio of dumb people everywhere but American dumb people are just in a position to do a lot of damage imo.
I'm not pro-American in terms of a lot of foreign policy but a lot of Americans aren't either. Is that what you mean by anti-Americanism?



Very true.

And who are these "dumb people " who could do all this damage? The American Government?

Shenshen

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

And who are these "dumb people " who could do all this damage? The American Government?

Well, there may be a point there: Stupid US citizens (not saying all are stupid, but every country has its fair share of idiots, really) electing the US government can, by proxy, do far more damage to the world as a whole than Irish idiots electing the Irish government.

It's just a matter of size and influence.

Galwayguy35

Shenshen wrote: »

Well, there may be a point there: Stupid US citizens (not saying all are stupid, but every country has its fair share of idiots, really) electing the US government can, by proxy, do far more damage to the world as a whole than Irish idiots electing the Irish government.

It's just a matter of size and influence.

But that is to suggest that the people who would be elected to power are stupid then is it not?
Yeah there are dumb people in every country but they aren't the ones who will make decisions.

Shenshen

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

But that is to suggest that the people who would be elected to power are stupid then is it not?
Yeah there are dumb people in every country but they aren't the ones who will make decisions.

That's the dark side of democracy, I think....

Ms.M

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

But that is to suggest that the people who would be elected to power are stupid then is it not?
Yeah there are dumb people in every country but they aren't the ones who will make decisions.

I disagree. We've had plenty of stupid politicians.
Also, the electorate do influence decisions because ultimately parties want to get back into power. Hence Fianna Fáil kept taxes low and expenditure high. Decisions not based on good judgment but simply keeping the electorate happy. Pretty dumb. Had they behaved responsibly, they would have been voted out and Fine Gael would have made the exact same mistakes to appease our electorate. George Bush went to war for the sake of winning votes. Romney is losing support from the Republican electorate because he failed to object to fairly minimal health reforms. The electorate have a lot of power.

SamHarris

Reindeer wrote: »

I'm an American. I wasn't born in America, nor was I born in Ireland. A large percentage of Americans are not born in America, and or have parents that were not born there. My mother was from Osaka, Japan of Japanese descent. My father was born in Claremore, Oklahoma, of German, and Cherokee descent. My grandmother was a Cherokee Indian from Claremore, Oklahoma - her family was originally from South Carolina before the 'Trail Of Tears'. My grandfather taught me German. I look first nations due to the mix in my blood. I have a Cherokee name given to me by my Grandmother. I am a typical, mixed blood, American.

My Grandmother was Cherokee to! Want to meet up for a casual rain dance?



I'm serious about my grandmother ...