spoiler inside-strikeforce aftermath

calex71

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

Am I the only one reading this and picturing some lad in a toga on the edge of a cliff?

He clearly said basement, the toga still stands though

rovert

Apparently someone in the states is claimed before the fight put his deposit for a house ($33,000) on Fedor. It was mentioned on the Beatdown After The Bell radio show. If true can you imagine?

Gonna listen to Eddie Goldman podcast for the lolz now.

Sid_Justice

Sid_Justice wrote: »

This to me is no more than Edgar beating Penn.

Whilst I agree with a lot of what you said, this bit here is a bit disrespectful to Werdum> taht was a world class submission, making the win SLIGHTLY more comprehensive than Edgars win.

There's not much to say about the fight really given it's length. What impressed me most was that Fedor had all but passed the guard and Werdum rather than just do what 99% of us would have tried to do and just try to spin back and get to the closed guard, he readjusted and attacked again, which to me was seriosuly impressive.

I'm not convinced that Werdum was knocked down. Part of me feels he may have flopped to his back to lure Fedor in. He never looked rocked, the composure on the ground was excelent. IF he intended to do that then he's a genius.

I'm glad it was Werdum and not Brock though. At least Werdum kept it classy afterwards.

As a Jiu Jitsu guy myself I'm happy that the great mans first real loss was via submission as opposed to someone hitting him with a big haymaker.

I guess Werdum is now "The Emelianenko Hunter" now.

Highnoon

haven't seen the fight yet and although I'm disappointed he lost I agree about losing to Werdum as opposed to a Brock. You never would have heard the end of it. On a positive note it may loosen up Fedor's management making them more amenable to signing with the UFC without all the conditions they demand on.

On Brock - I don't see why he is considered the man for Fedor to fight. He got a title fight very early in career. I know Randy did too but Brock lost in his title run which should have put him back down the ladder. I think Carwin will beat Brock and be a more classy (though some think boring) champion.

Anywho, looking forward to seeing Fedor continue to fight. Going to look for the link for Fedor vs Wedum - couldn't find it on YOUTUBE.

chordtype

Wow. Just shows that no matter who you are anything can happen in MMA. I had a bit of a Victor Meldrew moment when I was watching it. To be honest I was expecting Fedor to come into trouble with his style (I didn't think he would EVER lose though). Once he scores with a knockdown he usually heads straight ahead to try and finish the fight. Unless that knockdown shot is really good there is always a chance of getting caught in an arm bar or triangle. He got caught, simple as. He was just a bit overzealous which can cost.

Fair play to Werdum though. He showed great submission technique and probably made himself very famous within MMA circles.


BTW that Cyborg fight was a bit of a joke for me. It should not have gone anywhere near a second round.

rovert

chordtype wrote: »

BTW that Cyborg fight was a bit of a joke for me. It should not have gone anywhere near a second round.

Agreed but the counter argument is that she was still competitive with her attempts at getting a takedown.

Highnoon wrote: »

On Brock - I don't see why he is considered the man for Fedor to fight. He got a title fight very early in career. I know Randy did too but Brock lost in his title run which should have put him back down the ladder. I think Carwin will beat Brock and be a more classy (though some think boring) champion.

The only time Brock hasnt been classy is when fighters or their camps were disrepectful to his background. He was perfectly respectful with Randy as Randy respected him.

Zero-Cool

Cung Le's spinning back kicks were gas and even caused knockdowns! Jan Finney is one tough biitch! (no disrespect intended!!)

Fedor saying afterwards that people built him up as this legend is just loser talk

So, Werdum or Overeem?

nacho libre

Having watched the fight again I definitely think Fedor was complacent. He won't rushed in like that again and leave himself exposed. it's a big mistake against one of the best BJJ practitioners in the sport.
I really doubt it was a stroke of genius by Werdum to feign being really hurt to lure Fedor in for an armbar. There is no doubt though that Werdum was impressive in the way he finished off the fight but again that was due to a poor choice by Fedor.

cowzerp

nacho libre wrote: »

Having watched the fight again I definitely think Fedor was complacent. He won't rushed in like that again and leave himself exposed. it's a big mistake against one of the best BJJ practitioners in the sport.
I really doubt it was a stroke of genius by Werdum to feign being really hurt to lure Fedor in for an armbar. There is no doubt though that Werdum was impressive in the way he finished off the fight but again that was due to a poor choice by Fedor.

i would say several poor choices by Fedor, all positional..

Daniel2oo9

Fedor Should have done exactly what cain velasquez did to noguiera at UFC 110.After the knockdown velasquez stepped to side control not messing with th BJJ Of Nog.And finished him.

Fedor was already caught in a first armbar but continued to try and finish werdum,werdum knew he could catch him again if he was overzelous

pablohoney87

I think Werdum more pulled guard rather than got knocked down. He got hit hard which he doesnt like, was probably a little rocked but not a real knock down id say. Cain rocked nog and caught him twice again on the way down and his legs completely gave out. Another thing is that it takes more to pass a mundial and adcc champ than just stepping to side control.

Sid_Justice

sure doesn't verdum habitually sit into guard if he gets a decent punch?

pablohoney87

Sid_Justice wrote: »

sure doesn't verdum habitually sit into guard if he gets a decent punch?

As do a lotta adcc champs who go to mma. I expect the same when Estima eventually starts to climb the mma ladder.
Its just instinct too. When a good fighter gets hurt theyre gonna go to what they know. When mir punched lesner, lesner took it straight to the ground. Its just instinct too. An example is in wrestling training think it was like my 3rd session we had a few mock matches. I clashed heads pretty hard on an outside shot and immeadiatly oulled guard. Its just goin back to what ya know. Think you may have been there that day Kev.

baaaa

Was it a trap?Was the bait set when Werdum started weaving his head in the corner?Who starts weaving their head in the corner with Fedor?

Jason McCabe

I think what was always so exciting about Fedor was the fact that he looked sloppy with his technique sometimes but always managed to get away with it.

He made a mistake and got caught this time. The mystic is now gone.

I remember back in the day when he crushed Nog I was just as shocked and to be honest dismayed.

The mantle passes on, such is the nature of sport.

Anthony Walsh

I dont think this makes fedor any less of a fighter, this will only make him better. Still in my opinion he was not the number 1 p4p, definitely the #1 heavyweight but GSP is the number 1 p4p in my opinion and has been for awhile. I would love to see brock and fedor fight. Brock would have to be carried out of the ring.

rovert

Anthony Walsh wrote: »

I would love to see brock and fedor fight. Brock would have to be carried out of the ring.

Then why didnt sign a contract if it wasnt such a forgone?

Anyway Brock would at least bloody him up in seconds.

Can believe you still have Fedor as #1 HW after a loss against a 2-2 former UFC fighter.

Plastikman_eire

rovert wrote: »

Then why didnt sign a contract if it wasnt such a forgone?

Anyway Brock would at least bloody him up in seconds.

Can believe you still have Fedor as #1 HW after a loss against a 2-2 former UFC fighter.

As the cliche says; Styles make fights. Fedor made the mistake of sitting in the guard of the 2nd best hw bjj player in mma, and got caught in a sub.

That has no reflection on what might happen against a monster wrestler(If anything look at the coleman and randleman fights for an indication)

Brock has nothing for fedor on the feet, and has never fought anyone with Fedors mobility off his back.

nacho libre

rovert wrote: »

Can believe you still have Fedor as #1 HW after a loss against a 2-2 former UFC fighter.

that's a bit unfair. i know people here might not appreciate the comparison but if you look at boxing many of the great fighters have defeats to people who then went on to have average careers.
Such defeats do not diminish the quality of these fighters. A fighter can lose for a myriad of reasons. In Fedor's case i don't think it was because he faced a better fighter or that he's in decline. He just made a stupid mistake and played to Werdums strengths.

Furious-Dave

rovert wrote: »

Can believe you still have Fedor as #1 HW after a loss against a 2-2 former UFC fighter.

That's not actually accurate. According to his Wikipedia page (how much more reliable can you get ) Werdum has an MMA record of 14 - 4 - 1, between old smaller promotions, Pride, 2 Hot 2 Handle (where he beat the other Emelianenko), UFC and now Strikeforce. That's not to mention his successes in BJJ. So that kinda puts things into a little bit more perspective, and makes Fedors loss a little bit easier to bear .

Here's the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabricio_Werdum

Anthony Walsh

rovert wrote: »

Then why didnt sign a contract if it wasnt such a forgone?

Anyway Brock would at least bloody him up in seconds.

Can believe you still have Fedor as #1 HW after a loss against a 2-2 former UFC fighter.

Yeah Brock might get a few shots in on Fedor but Brocks chin has never really been tested. And bar Frank Mir who has Brock fought of real substance. Fedor is still the best HW in the world and it wont be easy to take that away from him

rovert

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

As the cliche says; Styles make fights. Fedor made the mistake of sitting in the guard of the 2nd best hw bjj player in mma, and got caught in a sub.

That has no reflection on what might happen against a monster wrestler(If anything look at the coleman and randleman fights for an indication)

Brock has nothing for fedor on the feet, and has never fought anyone with Fedors mobility off his back.

What decade and era are we living in here?

In terms of Brocks stand up being questionable in general in the case is open until the Carwin fight for me. Fedor’s body of work speaks for it self though I cant really argue too much but I can point to the Rogers fight.

People praised Mir as a master on the ground and Brock managed to subdue him so I think it would be competitive. People (Sherdog fans lol) before the second Mir fight said Brock had no chance against Fedor. Directly after the Mir fight traumatised after the beating he gave him on the ground they started saying that Fedor was now “too small” to fight Brock.

As fanboyish as it sounds if Brock ever got a chance to fight Fedor after all this time and talk I’m sure Brock would bring his A+ game as probably one of his strongest suits is his competitive nature. I don’t think that it would be a foregone even if Fedor was in his PRIDE form.

nacho libre wrote: »

that's a bit unfair. i know people here might not appreciate the comparison but if you look at boxing many of the great fighters have defeats to people who then went on to have average careers.
Such defeats do not diminish the quality of these fighters. A fighter can lose for a myriad of reasons. In Fedor's case I don't think it was because he faced a better fighter or that he's in decline. He just made a stupid mistake and played to Werdums strengths.

People used his undefeated streak as a large part of the argument for him being number 1 prior to his loss despite claims that he fought against lesser quality and less relevant competition. Based on that I don’t think he is number one a bullet anymore. I think it belongs to Carwin or Brock after Sunday as both have fought recently (I know the delay with Brock's health slowed down both fighters but lets have a little give and take) fought against quality and relevant competition to get there.

This Werdum fight doesn’t come into this assessment that much but I do think Fedor is in decline and that we have seen the best from him. There was some hairy moments in recent fights against some lacklustre competition, not to mention he/his camp has chosen that Fedor is fighting far less frequently than say five/six years ago, his unexplained weight gain for this fight, outside MMA aspirations being discussed openly etc.

Plastikman_eire

rovert wrote: »

What decade and era are we living in here?

In terms of Brocks stand up being questionable in general in the case is open until the Carwin fight for me. Fedor’s body of work speaks for it self though I cant really argue too much but I can point to the Rogers fight.

People praised Mir as a master on the ground and Brock managed to subdue him so I think it would be competitive. People (Sherdog fans lol) before the second Mir fight said Brock had no chance against Fedor. Directly after the Mir fight traumatised after the beating he gave him on the ground they started saying that Fedor was now “too small” to fight Brock.

.

Whats the era got to do with it? A big one dimensional wrestler, is a big one dimensional wrestler whether it be now or ten years ago.

Frank Mir has probably the most over rated submission game in mma. He got lucky in the 1st fight against Brock.

Personally I dont think Fedors ground game would come into play against Lesnar, I think he'd hammer him on the feet and Brock would tap to strikes.

rovert

Furious-Dave wrote: »

That's not actually accurate. According to his Wikipedia page (how much more reliable can you get ) Werdum has an MMA record of 14 - 4 - 1, between old smaller promotions, Pride, 2 Hot 2 Handle (where he beat the other Emelianenko), UFC and now Strikeforce. That's not to mention his successes in BJJ. So that kinda puts things into a little bit more perspective, and makes Fedors loss a little bit easier to bear .

Here's the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabricio_Werdum

But people are bench marking the quality of UFC fighters versus the quality of the Fedor's opposition. Werdum's record was that of a middle level fighter in UFC. He lost to Dos Santos and Dos Santos isnt even in the UFC HW title picture.

Anthony Walsh wrote: »

Yeah Brock might get a few shots in on Fedor but Brocks chin has never really been tested. And bar Frank Mir who has Brock fought of real substance. Fedor is still the best HW in the world and it wont be easy to take that away from him

Yeah Brock hasnt fought anyone of real substance besides Randy Couture. You know the guy who everyone bigged up when a fight between Randy and Fedor was on the cards....

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Whats the era got to do with it? A big one dimensional wrestler, is a big one dimensional wrestler whether it be now or ten years ago.

SERIOUSLY?

There is so many things wrong with this statement.

Plastikman_eire

rovert wrote: »

SERIOUSLY?

There is so many things wrong with this statement.

Enlighten me.

rovert

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Enlighten me.

Dont you not realise now much both amateur wrestling and MMA has taken an evolutionary step in this past ten years plus.

Do seriously think Randleman or Coleman has a chance against Brock in 2010?

cowzerp

rovert wrote: »

Dont you not realise now much both amateur wrestling and MMA has taken an evolutionary step in this past ten years plus.

Do seriously think Randleman or Coleman has a chance against Brock in 2010?

what evolutionary step has amateur wrestling taking?
im pretty sure amateur wrestlers would be deeply offended by that statement-peak Randleman or Coleman certainly would have a chance v Brock.. not now though.

Plastikman_eire

rovert wrote: »

Dont you not realise now much both amateur wrestling and MMA has taken an evolutionary step in this past ten years plus.

Do seriously think Randleman or Coleman has a chance against Brock in 2010?

MMA has evolved massively. Wrestling; not at all.

Your second question is absurd, how either guy does vs Brock nowadays is neither here nor there. What is important is how fedor handled two big guys with similar skill sets to Brock

rovert

cowzerp wrote: »

what evolutionary step has amateur wrestling taking?

In terms of how competitive it is and the quality of athlete. A lot has also been advanced with sports science. Lets face it legal and illegal substances.

cowzerp wrote: »

im pretty sure amateur wrestlers would be deeply offended by that statement-peak Randleman or Coleman certainly would have a chance v Brock.. not now though.

There is a too easy joke to be made about peak Randleman and Coleman.

You really think that Brock's skills have surpassed Randleman or Coleman's?

Brock is SO much more active and dangerous than Kevin ever was.

What was Coleman without knees to the head and headbutts?

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

What is important is how fedor handled two big guys with similar skill sets to Brock

See above

nacho libre

rovert wrote: »

People used his undefeated streak as a large part of the argument for him being number 1 prior to his loss despite claims that he fought against lesser quality and less relevant competition. Based on that I don’t think he is number one a bullet anymore. I think it belongs to Carwin or Brock after Sunday as both have fought recently (I know the delay with Brock's health slowed down both fighters but lets have a little give and take) fought against quality and relevant competition to get there.

This Werdum fight doesn’t come into this assessment that much but I do think Fedor is in decline and that we have seen the best from him. There was some hairy moments in recent fights against some lacklustre competition, not to mention he/his camp has chosen that Fedor is fighting far less frequently than say five/six years ago, his unexplained weight gain for this fight, outside MMA aspirations being discussed openly etc.

well we'll know for sure in the next fight or two whether he's in decline.
however i still think he is as good as he ever was he just under estimated Werdum and paid the price. The point you make about weight gain and lacklustre performances could be an indication of his loss of motivation. I doubt he'll have such problems for his next fight.
Fedor stayed undefeated for the guts of 10 years and he fought quality opposition in pride. So I'm not going to dismiss him as past it due to one loss because that can happen any fighter regardless of the opponents overall quality.

cowzerp

rovert wrote: »

In terms of how competitive it is and the quality of athlete. A lot has also been advanced with sports science. Lets face it legal and illegal substances.



There is a too easy joke to be made about peak Randleman and Coleman.

You really think that Brock's skills have surpassed Randleman or Coleman's?

Brock is SO much more active and dangerous than Kevin ever was.

What was Coleman without knees to the head and headbutts?



See above

possible worst post ever Rovert, Wrestling has always been great-its still the same as it was 20 years ago, i dont know where your getting your info from. Brock is 1 dimensional, as them lads where, even moreso in my opinion.

rovert

cowzerp wrote: »

possible worst post ever Rovert, Wrestling has always been great-its still the same as it was 20 years ago, i dont know where your getting your info from. Brock is 1 dimensional, as them lads where, even moreso in my opinion.

Way not to reply to any of the points I made. :rolleyes:

I expect more from a mod.

Yep a one dimensional fighter is one that passes Mir's guard with ease...

Plastikman_eire

rovert wrote: »

Way not to reply to any of the points I made. :rolleyes:

I expect more from a mod.

Yep a one dimensional fighter is one that passes Mir's guard with ease...

Improving position is a core aspect of wrestling isnt it?

Brocks striking is sub par, and he's never gonna submit anyone. That leaves...wrestling, which if my maths are correct(and I think they are) is a single dimension of MMA.

rovert

rovert wrote: »

Way not to reply to any of the points I made. :rolleyes:

I expect more from a mod.

Yep a one dimensional fighter is one that passes Mir's guard with ease...

Let's leave Brock out of this, this is about Fedor, let's face it, Brock has basically competed in 50% of his fights against Mir. he hasn't proved anything :pac:

MarkJD

Its always good fun to see the Brock vs Fedor debates... At the end of the day nobody can say who would win. Anything can happen in a fight, thats exactly what we just saw in the Werdum win.

Stats may point in Fedors favour but he has had numerous more fights than Brock to help back them up, at the end of the day though they are just stats. Any fighter is as good as his last fight and no doubt Fedor will pick himself up and prove his worth.

I think all the talk about Brock not being able to take a punch and what not is complete drabble... we all have no idea if he can or not because he hasnt been in that situation where he has had to take any serious punches. This weekend we will hopefully see that, but if he completely overpowers Carwin (which i see being the case) then still we wont know how well he can take a punch.

rovert

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Improving position is a core aspect of wrestling isnt it?

:rolleyes:

Explain what he did to keep Mir down and hammer fist him.

Shazbot

rovert wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I don't see why that merrits a "rolleyes" emoticon. What he said is right, a core aspect of wrestling is passing the guard and improving position.

Explain what he did to keep Mir down and hammer fist him.

He used he body position and posture to keep his opponent in position, a similar technique used in BJJ. What's the point of the question?

rovert

Shazbot wrote: »

He used he body position and posture to keep his opponent in position, a similar technique used in BJJ. What's the point of the question?

That he isnt just a one dimensional wrestler.

Plastikman_eire

rovert wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Explain what he did to keep Mir down and hammer fist him.

Came in weighing 285 lbs? HGH?:D

Nah he pinned him....just like in wrestling.

Professey Chin

rovert wrote: »

Explain what he did to keep Mir down and hammer fist him.

He used his wrestling.
Position advancement,Top control,Posture control.
How is this so hard to understand??

rovert

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Came in weighing 285 lbs?

Consensus before the fight including Mir's belief was that size didnt matter and Jiu Jitsu > all. Hence the crowd crying to stand them up.

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

HGH?:D

Youve no proof or that. Those who know the signs of use even say he isnt on it.

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

He used his wrestling.
Position advancement,Top control,Posture control.
How is this so hard to understand??

Not just Wrestling though is it.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3081193/brock_lesnar_vs_frank_mir_half_guard_destruction_in_mma/

Plastikman_eire

rovert wrote: »

Consensus before the fight including Mir's belief was that size didnt matter and Jiu Jitsu > all. Hence the crowd crying to stand them up.

Tongue in cheek, hence the::D

rovert wrote: »

Youve no proof or that. Those who know the signs of use even say he isnt on it.

He's been busted for possession before.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/lesnarmug1.html

rovert wrote: »

Not just Wrestling though is it.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3081193/brock_lesnar_vs_frank_mir_half_guard_destruction_in_mma/

Yeah it was, strong side control and a half nelson at the end.

rovert

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

He's been busted for possession before.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/mugshots/lesnarmug1.html

Untrue the charges were dropped learned to read.

Any that time WWE didnt have drug testing. UFC does and tests all main events at the very least.

If Brock took it in the UFC he wouldnt be the only one by far.

Shazbot

rovert wrote: »

That he isnt just a one dimensional wrestler.

The key difference is that BJJ use position and control to work for submissions. Lesnnars style of wrestling doesn't incorporate submission wrestling. If it did then he would have utilised his GnP during the Mir fight (part 2) to set up a submission.

He is still one dimensional, I was simply highlighting that the two styles have a similar base.

Plastikman_eire

rovert wrote: »

Untrue the charges were dropped learned to read.

Any that time WWE didnt have drug testing. UFC does and tests all main events at the very least.

If Brock took it in the UFC he wouldnt be the only one by far.

He was arrested for possession of anabolic steroids controlled under US law, the charges were dropped when they were found to be Human Growth Hormone, which isnt controlled under law, but IS an illegal performance enhancer as far as the athletic commissions are concerned.

Currently the tests that the NSAC use(urine) cant detect HGH. Which is why they are considering implementing blood testing.

rovert

Shazbot wrote: »

The key difference is that BJJ use position and control to work for submissions. Lesnnars style of wrestling doesn't incorporate submission wrestling. If it did then he would have utilised his GnP during the Mir fight (part 2) to set up a submission.

He is still one dimensional, I was simply highlighting that the two styles have a similar base.

My argument is that he is "one dimensional" by choice rather than though ignorance or an inability to learn (see Coleman & Randleman) he has Rodrigo Medeiros in his fight camp.

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

He was arrested for possession of anabolic steroids controlled under US law, the charges were dropped when they were found to be Human Growth Hormone, which isnt controlled under law, but IS an illegal performance enhancer as far as the athletic commissions are concerned.

Currently the tests that the NSAC use(urine) cant detect HGH. Which is why they are considering implementing blood testing.

All true but again he isnt the only one a number of reporters has said that the majority of UFC headliners use HGH.

He isnt the first fighter to add 10s of lbs after a weigh-in either.

Im under no illusions about Brock's track record but I dont think in his prior fights he used HGH or anything else.

Plastikman_eire

rovert wrote: »

My argument is that he is "one dimensional" by choice rather than though ignorance or an inability to learn (see Coleman & Randleman) he has Rodrigo Medeiros in his fight camp.

:eek:

Really? Seriously?

Most ridiculous point yet.

Seriously man, take Brock's, eh....tattoo out of your mouth for a moment and just listen to yourself.

rovert

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

:eek:

Really? Seriously?

Most ridiculous point yet.

Seriously man, take Brock's, eh....tattoo out of your mouth for a moment and just listen to yourself.

How is it ridiculous? Attack the post not the poster. Why would Brock stray from his bread and butter in a fight?

Brock is the same person who tried out for the NFL despite never playing in college.

Plastikman_eire

rovert wrote: »

How is it ridiculous? Attack the post not the poster. Why would Brock stray from his bread and butter in a fight?

Brock is the same person who tried out for the NFL despite never playing in college.

Coleman was too ignorant to move away from wrestling? But brock just chooses to utilise it rather then striking or subs? Ridiculous!

One dimensional, is one dimensional.

Im not attacking you btw, I'm attacking your blind adherence to the UFC/Lesnar hype.

Shazbot

rovert wrote: »

Brock is the same person who tried out for the NFL despite never playing in college.

Yeah, and how did that work out for him?

You mentioned he was one dimensional by choice - however it's edited out now. Do you stand by that? If so, we have never seen Brock attempt to stray from wrestling in a fight. Yes he utilised some clinch work against Randy but not enough to suggest that it wasn't simply modified wrestling.

So I don't know where you're getting one dimensional by choice.