England: The Post Mortem

gimmick

Right, the headlines will be all about Lampards goal that wasn't which would have made the game 2-2, but that is only to hide how horrifically poor England have been in this tournament and even in their warm up games.

I would even argue that this is the first decent opposition England have played since World Cup 06. In this tournament they have been awful. They were lucky to draw with the States IMO, Algeria had as many chances in that game and by all accounts, were shocking against Slovenia as well (I did not see it, so cannot comment).

So, what has happened? Is it as staright forward as they are not as good as they are made out, disharmony in the camp, poor management again and again or players prefer palying for their clubs rather than country?

I dunno, but let the hand wringing and the blame game begin in earnest.

Insect Overlord

Jaysus, let them blow the final whistle first!

flahavaj

English players want to play at 100 miles an hour and they simply aren't as technically proficient as other countrys'. They've been left behind. They had absolutely no craft of guile. look at the German's third goal, a brilliant breakaway, but it resulted from a realy poor first touch by Gareth Barry at the other end of the pitch.

The difference between the sides was that England had no one in midfield of the quality or technical acumen that the likes of Shcweinsteiger or Ozil possess.

Bounty Hunter

English football :

SarahBM

just proves that the Premiership is NOT the best league in the world

Latchy

It's hard to say one thing but the problem in the England camp is phycological as much as anything else .I thought Capello was going to be the saviour and England serious contenders for the WC .Obiously not

ctrl-alt-delete

One thing is for sure,

If they have a defensive coach he should go along with Capello, I hope to god it wasn't Stuart Pearce.

If they don't have one, maybe that is where Capello went wrong.

Aside from that i'd sack Capello for bringing Heskey to the tournment and that alone.

OPENROAD

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

English football :

Indeed the likes of Gerrard, Johnsonand Rooney are not as good as people think( sorry to all the utd and liverpool fans on here who will say different)

Le King

:pac::pac::pac:

3hn2givr7mx1sc

OPENROAD wrote: »

Indeed the likes of Gerrard, Johnsonand Rooney are not as good as people think( sorry to all the utd and liverpool fans on here who will say different)

Rooney and Gerrard on their day are in the top 5 in the world in their positions.

I don't rate Johnson at all.

G1032

SarahBM wrote: »

just proves that the Premiership is NOT the best league in the world

How does it prove that? For years people championed La Liga as the best league in the world but Spain never won any tournaments....................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6BJ3CvPLhs

3hn2givr7mx1sc

ronaldochokes wrote: »

How does it prove that? For years people championed La Liga as the best league in the world but Spain never won any tournaments....................

Euro 2008.

amacachi

ronaldochokes wrote: »

How does it prove that? For years people championed La Liga as the best league in the world but Spain never won any tournaments....................

It's another topic, but a fair number of the Spanish players would be abroad. The fact that basically none of the English players play abroad says a lot to me, it's not only down to money.

There's a lot to England's demise, the players being the main thing. They simply aren't that good and whether it's a lack of will from the players or the coaches I don't know, but there's no coherent system.

Helix

SarahBM wrote: »

just proves that the Premiership is NOT the best league in the world

to be fair the english national team sayus nothing about teh quality of their league

the brazilian league is hardly the pinnacle of club football like

G1032

baz2009 wrote: »

Euro 2008.

I know that. what about the 15 years before euro 2008???????????

OPENROAD

amacachi wrote: »

It's another topic, but a fair number of the Spanish players would be abroad. The fact that basically none of the English players play abroad says a lot to me, it's not only down to money.

There's a lot to England's demise, the players being the main thing. They simply aren't that good and whether it's a lack of will from the players or the coaches I don't know, but there's no coherent system.

The same applies to the Irish players then?

staker

Jesus they were brutal. There's a lot of players need to ask themselves a few hard questions about playing for their country - gimme my pay check, my Lamboo's going rusty.

flahavaj

Brady on RTE just summed it up very well - its the culture of English football that sees their national team fail so badly every two Summers. Footballers in the Premiership simply aren't encouraged to hold onto the ball for prolonged periods of time, the game is played at breakneck speed. Its a style of football that translates very poorly to international football.

parker kent

baz2009 wrote: »

Rooney and Gerrard on their day are in the top 5 in the world in their positions.

I don't rate Johnson at all.

Rooney, yes. Gerrard, no.

amacachi wrote: »

It's another topic, but a fair number of the Spanish players would be abroad. The fact that basically none of the English players play abroad says a lot to me, it's not only down to money.

There's a lot to England's demise, the players being the main thing. They simply aren't that good and whether it's a lack of will from the players or the coaches I don't know, but there's no coherent system.

Italy won the World Cup with 23 players playing in the Italian league. The German team was hardly full of players from other leagues either.

England lost because Germany are better at football, it is that simple.

M5

SarahBM wrote: »

just proves that the Premiership is NOT the best league in the world

Rubbish, all it proves is the England national team are a poor side. 23 players out 0f 500 odd proves nothing.

England have talented players but NO team

Bounty Hunter

nothing to do with the standard of the premiership just the standard of the england team/squad as apposed to the percieved/built up image of it. Afterall more premiership players are at the WC than those of any other league, 117 in total, 93 of which are from outside the English squad and in total Prem players make up 16.05% of those participating at this years World Cup

_Bella_

Stop using the 4-4-2 system!

Raskolnikov

How many times are England going to try and play Gerrard and Lampard in the same team?

keane2097

England's defence was obv a huge problem. John Terry is vastly overrated, Matthew Upson is far from International class, Glen Johnson is always going to get skinned by decent opposition, with only Ashley Cole at the top level IMO.

Beyond that, their midfield lacks the technical ability, as well as the inclination, to hold onto the ball for any length of time.

Grass roots changes to the coaching structure is needed to change the midfield deficiencies, not sure if much needs to change about how defenders are coached, if their bet players could stay fit they wouldn't be too bad.

FatherTed

I've been saying this for years but they are just not that good and they (and some in here) always overrate them.

Yes Capello did a horrible job comsidering the money he's on, but after the WC in 06, I realised that the WC is a young man's competition. Look at the so-called big teams who played an oldish team: Italy, England, France. They're out. Germany took a chance a on their youngsters and they're in the quarters.

In any case, the quality is not there. The structure and playing styles is rotten to the core in England with an emphasis put on "winning" in youth rather than learning the fundamentals and technique. The upper hierarchy of English football is all about the latest bling and being a celebrity.

dreamers75

Raskolnikov wrote: »

How many times are England going to try and play Gerrard and Lampard in the same team?

Reckon it wont be a problem in august.

Mr.Nice Guy

Mainly I think a number of factors are to blamefor England's demise particularly the unrealistic expectation levels, a manager who didn't know his best players or system right up until the start of the tournament, and big players who didn't perform when they needed to.

I'm wondering too is there an argument to be made that foreign players are stifling certain nations? England are poor in certain areas, mainly the goalkeeping position with the top English clubs having foreign keepers. There's a lack of strength in depth. Heskey can't get a game at Villa. Crouch has struggled to play at Spurs. Upson is not playing in the top tier of the league etc.

Similarly Inter Milan did brilliantly in the Champions Leauge but with few Italians. Italy were poor. Just throwing it out there.

amacachi

OPENROAD wrote: »

The same applies to the Irish players then?

How do you mean? That they're not good enough to win a world cup?

parker kent wrote: »

Italy won the World Cup with 23 players playing in the Italian league. The German team was hardly full of players from other leagues either.

England lost because Germany are better at football, it is that simple.

Which is where it comes back to my other point, that there's no discernible system that England play to, when it's been shown that a team of mediocre players can advance through tournaments by sticking to a gameplan.

Raskolnikov

keane2097 wrote: »

Glen Johnson is always going to get skinned by decent opposition, with only Ashley Cole at the top level IMO.

Johnson had a bad performance because Upson and Terry were completely missing and he was being dragged into the middle.

Cole is only a shadow of the player that we see at Chelsea and clearly doesn't care about playing for the national side.

FatherTed

FatherTed wrote: »

I've been saying this for years but they are just not that good and they (and some in here) always overrate them.

Yes Capello did a horrible job comsidering the money he's on, but after the WC in 06, I realised that the WC is a young man's competition. Look at the so-called big teams who played an oldish team: Italy, England, France. They're out. Germany took a chance a on their youngsters and they're in the quarters.

In any case, the quality is not there. The structure and playing styles is rotten to the core in England with an emphasis put on "winning" in youth rather than learning the fundamentals and technique. The upper hierarchy of English football is all about the latest bling and being a celebrity.

Italy won the last world cup with an old team.

The_Hustler

SarahBM wrote: »

just proves that the Premiership is NOT the best league in the world

Because the Premiership is not full of foreign players

keane2097

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Johnson had a bad performance because Upson and Terry were completely missing and he was being dragged into the middle.

Cole is only a shadow of the player that we see at Chelsea and clearly doesn't care about playing for the national side.

Upson and Terry didn't have a whole lot to do with the numerous skinnings Johnson suffered today tbh. He just doesn't have the defensive nous to compete against pacy, technically good players.

In Ashley Cole's defence, the England backroom staff seem oblivious to his talents and showed no interest in setting the team up tactically in a way to benefit from his attacking skills the way, for example, Brazil cater to Maicon.

OPENROAD

Re: Glen Johnson, I really don't see what people see in him

Livvie

SarahBM wrote: »

just proves that the Premiership is NOT the best league in the world

Imagine how rubbish it might be without the foreign players then.

Or would it be good for the national side?

grenache

Some people can laugh at England for their failings, but what blights them - bad passing, panicing while in possession, poor first touch - also blights the rest of the British Isles nations. It seems endemic within our play. What are the coaches on these islands doing so differently from the ones on the continent? Is it a confidence issue? All these fundamental issues must be addressed before England or any other team from these islands even contemplates doing well in international competitions.

Livvie

M5 wrote: »

England have talented players but NO team

Exactly.

OPENROAD

grenache wrote: »

Some people can laugh at England for their failings, but what blights them - bad passing, panicing while in possession, poor first touch - also blights the rest of the British Isles nations. It seems endemic within our play. What are the coaches on these islands doing so differently from the ones on the continent? Is it a confidence issue? All these fundamental issues must be addressed before England or any other team from these islands even contemplates doing well in international competitions.

Good point, the same applies to the Irish players

Ordinary man

Playing in a 4 5 1 system brings out the best in rooney, lampard and gerrard. In fact only james,milner and upson play for teams with a 442 system. They know how to play it week in, week out. So why change it?

gimmick

Rooney - 3/10
Gerrard - 5/10
Lampard - 4/10
Terry - 3/10
A Cole 6/10

I think I am being generous in my tournament ratings here. FFS, people were talking of Rooney as World Player Of The Year.

Good point again by Brady - English players in the Premiership are made look better by their foreign teammates.

Lukker-

Ordinary man wrote: »

Playing in a 4 5 1 system brings out the best in rooney, lampard and gerrard. In fact only james,milner and upson play for teams with a 442 system. They know how to play it week in, week out. So why change it?

'Cos Capello managed in his glory days where a 4-4-2 was the shít.

Kiwi_knock

Well for the future 4-4-2 should never be used again, it is not used in the club game anymore so most players are not used to it.
First thing is put Joe Hart in as No 1. James has been excellent but will never play in a major tournament again. Hart is young and has the potential to be a world class keeper. Start giving him the experience now and he will be ready for the next few tournaments.
Stop using the preferential treatment to certain players, just because they can do it on the club stage means nothing on the International stage. Lampard has not played a good game for England in ages but continually gets picked.
Start blooding new players now and build towards the next world cup, use the Euros as a way of maturing the players.

mike65

Rooney - iconic striker unfit
4-4-2 dead and buried at this level
Gerrard on left wing for fupps sake
No Adam Johnson
No plan B (Crouch not trusted for some reason)
Shocking Terry performances, other CBs injured/old/rubbish
Goalkeeping crisis (though James has actually done well)
Lack of confidence with ball when under pressure (not Caps fault that inherited).

Oh yeah Bloody technology! I'm not going to say 2-2 would have changed the result but it might have.

OPENROAD

gimmick wrote: »

Rooney - 3/10
Gerrard - 5/10
Lampard - 4/10
Terry - 3/10
A Cole 6/10

I think I am being generous in my tournament ratings here. FFS, people were talking of Rooney as World Player Of The Year.

Good point again by Brady - English players in the Premiership are made look better by their foreign teammates.

Does the same apply to the Irish players.

Very generous marks for Rooney and especially Gerrard

amacachi

grenache wrote: »

Some people can laugh at England for their failings, but what blights them - bad passing, panicing while in possession, poor first touch - also blights the rest of the British Isles nations. It seems endemic within our play. What are the coaches on these islands doing so differently from the ones on the continent? Is it a confidence issue? All these fundamental issues must be addressed before England or any other team from these islands even contemplates doing well in international competitions.

Well if it's like when I was 10/11 about ten years ago then the problem is obvious, ya play as a kid til 9 years old on a tiny pitch and it's great, then out of nowhere you're moved to a full-sized pitch with 11 on each team, so the only players who advance are the big fit ones who run and run, ball control and finesse is far less important all of a sudden.

FUNKY LOVER

start from fresh,bring in young blood.

jack wilshire is the player england should build the team around,a player who can create in the hole.

Probably a very naive thought, but is it that teams from the British Isles enjoy winning but not the actual playing? You always see the Brazilians, the Spanish and the Argentinians smiling and laughing. The English are incredibly po-faced. Maybe because since kids, we're (The British Isles) taught that in a game, there should be no flash, it's a team game, where the (for want of a better term) The Sunnier Nations are praised for individual flair, as long as it helps the team. Look how Messi plays for Argentina, the entire Spanish team, and historically flair is always associated with Brazil.

I'm no expert, just my 2c

SarahBM

The_Hustler wrote: »

Because the Premiership is not full of foreign players

name any english players who play in foreign leagues!!!

name one creative england midfielder.

just because you have the best english players on the team doesnt mean they can gel and work together as a team. they cant pass to each other, there is no communications. poor technical ability and just didnt do the basics well. Germany may be a bunch of your fellas but they could do the basics well and were of a better standard today.

I think I might start watching the Bundesliga from now on.

FUNKY LOVER

Papa Smut wrote: »

Probably a very naive thought, but is it that teams from the British Isles enjoy winning but not the actual playing? You always see the Brazilians, the Spanish and the Argentinians smiling and laughing. The English are incredibly po-faced. Maybe because since kids, we're (The British Isles) taught that in a game, there should be no flash, it's a team game, where the (for want of a better term) The Sunnier Nations are praised for individual flair, as long as it helps the team. Look how Messi plays for Argentina, the entire Spanish team, and historically flair is always associated with Brazil.

I'm no expert, just my 2c

probably because all the kids have in poorer countries is football,no xboxs etc,so they play live and breathe football.

just my 2 cent.

Bounty Hunter

anyone else in the mood for watching this tonight? :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8TNtU0_0_c

amacachi

Papa Smut wrote: »

Probably a very naive thought, but is it that teams from the British Isles enjoy winning but not the actual playing? You always see the Brazilians, the Spanish and the Argentinians smiling and laughing. The English are incredibly po-faced. Maybe because since kids, we're (The British Isles) taught that in a game, there should be no flash, it's a team game, where the (for want of a better term) The Sunnier Nations are praised for individual flair, as long as it helps the team. Look how Messi plays for Argentina, the entire Spanish team, and historically flair is always associated with Brazil.

I'm no expert, just my 2c

I may be wrong with this, but I know in Rugby League one of England's problems is that the players spend the whole season playing against each other and can't get past that fact and gel properly. In soccer would that affect England in some way, since most national sides would have players who aren't constantly playing against each other?

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

probably because all the kids have in poorer countries is football,no xboxs etc,so they play live and breathe football.

just my 2 cent.

Where were the Xboxes through the 70s and 80s in England?