England: The Post Mortem

keane2097

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Stop using the preferential treatment to certain players, just because they can do it on the club stage means nothing on the International stage. Lampard has not played a good game for England in ages but continually gets picked.

This is a good point. Look at how Podolski and Klose perform for Germany while being average at best at club level.

The fact that they play for a country that doesn't seem to celebratise players the way England does is very obviously illustrated by their continued selection at International level.

OPENROAD

keane2097 wrote: »

This is a good point. Look at how Podolski and Klose perform for Germany while being average at best at club level.

The fact that they play for a country that doesn't seem to celebratise players the way England does is very obviously illustrated by their continued selection at International level.

Do you read German newspapers and watch German tv regularly?

keane2097

OPENROAD wrote: »

Do you read German newspapers and watch German tv regularly?

Nope, I'm guessing.

FUNKY LOVER

amacachi wrote: »

I may be wrong with this, but I know in Rugby League one of England's problems is that the players spend the whole season playing against each other and can't get past that fact and gel properly. In soccer would that affect England in some way, since most national sides would have players who aren't constantly playing against each other?

Where were the Xboxes through the 70s and 80s in England?

did england win the world cup in the 70's and 80's?

Mr. Presentable

English Premier League not the same as England. Top clubs are filled with non-English players. English players are not of sufficient quantity of sufficient quality to form a useful national team.

If I was to make a world 11 there would be no English GK, no English Def, no English MF and possibly one English forward - but he'd have to show some of the enthusiasm he shows at club level - it seems to me Rooney only likes to play when he's winning.

For England to produce a quality NT they need to produce more quality players. The clubs at the top need to start using English trainees and stop burgling French, Italian etc academies.

So, yes, the problem is somewhat attributable to the number of foreigners in their league game. Perversely, success and access to money has ruined them.

But I'm not disappointed.

gimmick

OPENROAD wrote: »

Does the same apply to the Irish players.

Very generous marks for Rooney and especially Gerrard

Absolutely yes. All we need do is look at the heroic failure in October/November against France and Italy - those games made us think we were better than what we actaully are.

I gave Gerrard such "high" marks for his goal against USA

OPENROAD

keane2097 wrote: »

Nope, I'm guessing.

I'd say you are wrong then

Prufrock

amacachi wrote: »

Well if it's like when I was 10/11 about ten years ago then the problem is obvious, ya play as a kid til 9 years old on a tiny pitch and it's great, then out of nowhere you're moved to a full-sized pitch with 11 on each team, so the only players who advance are the big fit ones who run and run, ball control and finesse is far less important all of a sudden.

I agree. Wasn't an article written on this somewhere? 11 adults tried to play on a larger than average size pitch to see what it was like for a 10/11 year old. I'd say this does effect how you play the game when you are older.

Kess73

SarahBM wrote: »

just proves that the Premiership is NOT the best league in the world

Or it proves that the English players are not what makes the Premiership one of the top leagues.

amacachi

amacachi wrote: »

I may be wrong with this, but I know in Rugby League one of England's problems is that the players spend the whole season playing against each other and can't get past that fact and gel properly. In soccer would that affect England in some way, since most national sides would have players who aren't constantly playing against each other?

That's what I also thought. But look at the Spanish team for instance. 8 players from Barca, 5 players from Real. There can be no doubt that in a game where they play against each other, they hate each other. But it all gets put aside in the national interest, when the national team is playing, which is also interesting. How many of those players would prefer to play for a Catalan national team?

I don't know if that bitterness is THAT ingrained in the English team, and something I don't see in the Scottish, Welsh and Irish teams.

MisterAnarchy

It boils down to the primitive style of football played by so many teams in England.
From an early age the emphasis is on speed ,strength and physicality .
Technique,passing ,vision and patience are undervalued.
The English team simply cannot maintain enough possession in a match ,they cant make simple one twos,cannot create space ,dont make decoy runs etc etc.
Most of the English players are impact players ,good for a few moments in a match but largely unforgettable for the rest .At the top level that will be seriously punished.
The whole underage system over there is wrong and there is a lack of coaching knowledge.
In Spain for example kids play on smaller pitches and smaller goals until they are 14 or 15,the emphasis is on technique,touch,vision .
In England we see 8 and 9 year old kids hoofing the ball around a full sized pitch .
I remember Jermaine Pennant saying in an interview with Sky Sports last season that the emphasis in training with Zaragoza in Spain is on technical skills and ball skills whereas in England training was mostly physical work.
That confirms my suspicion.
Its a different culture from England where so many teams are so fearful of getting relegated that they resort to fear football and a standard of play that is brutal to watch.
Compare teams like Hull and Burnley with their counterparts in Spain struggling with relegation this year,its chalk and cheese,some try to play football the others anti football.
The standard of football in the German league is improving and most if not all the teams there try to play passing attractive possession football which results in the style we saw today.
England wont improve until they change the style of football in the whole country but that will never happen.

DB10

The English just do not have the technical ability to play in the way they do. They seem to have little attacking gameplan bar hope Gerrard, Lampard or Rooney produce something out of nothing.

They didn't do that in any of the 4 games. And both Gerrard and Lampard aren't playing in their prefered position.

What do they expect? They cannot even pass the ball around, basic stuff.

If they had a great defense and keeper, they may have got further but they haven't.

everdead.ie

For the qualifiers the team should drop Gerrard and Lampard neither will be influential in future tournaments and younger players should be blooded
Huddlestone should be brought in and Milner to the centre to add creativity with defensive ability Adam Johnson on the left.

DB10

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

It boils down to the primitive style of football played by so many teams in England.
From an early age the emphasis is on speed ,strength and physicality .
Technique,passing ,vision and patience are undervalued.
The English team simply cannot maintain enough possession in a match ,they cant make simple one twos,cannot create space ,dont make decoy runs etc etc.
Most of the English players are impact players ,good for a few moments in a match but largely unforgettable for the rest .At the top level that will be seriously punished.
The whole underage system over there is wrong and there is a lack of coaching knowledge.
In Spain for example kids play on smaller pitches and smaller goals until they are 14 or 15,the emphasis is on technique,touch,vision .
In England we see 8 and 9 year old kids hoofing the ball around a full sized pitch .
I remember Jermaine Pennant saying in an interview with Sky Sports last season that the emphasis in training with Zaragoza in Spain is on technical skills and ball skills whereas in England training was mostly physical work.
That confirms my suspicion.
Its a different culture from England where so many teams are so fearful of getting relegated that they resort to fear football and a standard of play that is brutal to watch.
Compare teams like Hull and Burnley with their counterparts in Spain struggling with relegation this year,its chalk and cheese,some try to play football the others anti football.
The standard of football in the German league is improving and most if not all the teams there try to play passing attractive possession football which results in the style we saw today.
England wont improve until they change the style of football in the whole country but that will never happen.

Spot on. As long as guys like Tony Pulis, and Big Sam are given plaudits in the PL, this will all continue.

blinding

German school boys tutor Englands wideboys on football basics ! ! !

keane2097

OPENROAD wrote: »

I'd say you are wrong then

The celebrity status afforded to the likes of Lampard, Terry and Gerrard in England has led to their positions in the National side becoming untouchable, regardless of prolonged periods of underperformance at that level.

This is not a problem in Germany, where players like Podolski and Klose, who do not perform at a very high level for their clubs, are able to get their place in the National side ahead of players who, if they were English, would probably be untouchable.

tommyhaas

When was the last time England beat a top side, or a side they wernt expected to beat at a major tournament? The only one I can think of in recent times was Argentina in 2002, before that probley Holland ( who in fairness were a shambles at the time) in Euro 96. My point is they always fall at the first real hurdle. They reached the last 8 of a few tournament in the last couple of years, but did so after beating weaker opposition to get there. Englands performance during this WC , and elimination by Germany is perfectly in keeping with the standards they have achieved over the majority of the previous couple of tournaments

OPENROAD

gimmick wrote: »

Absolutely yes. All we need do is look at the heroic failure in October/November against France and Italy - those games made us think we were better than what we actaully are.

I gave Gerrard such "high" marks for his goal against USA

According to one of the pundits from the team of pundits that tell it like it is Ireland can match any team in the world based on a first half performance in a friendly against Brazil.

FUNKY LOVER

arsenal and wenger will probably get the blame!!

people wonder why wenger doeant buy english:D

gimmick

OPENROAD wrote: »

According to one of the pundits from the team of pundits that tell it like it is Ireland can match any team in the world based on a first half performance in a friendly against Brazil.

Which I am sure you would agree is bollocks.

everdead.ie

I tell ya England need to make a British isles team if they got there hands on Bale and the arsenal chap who's name escapes me they'd be such a better team for it both could start and improve that team.
Edit Ramsey that's who I meant.

eagle eye

keane2097 wrote: »

The celebrity status afforded to the likes of Lampard, Terry and Gerrard in England has led to their positions in the National side becoming untouchable, regardless of prolonged periods of underperformance at that level.

This is not a problem in Germany, where players like Podolski and Klose, who do not perform at a very high level for their clubs, are able to get their place in the National side ahead of players who, if they were English, would probably be untouchable.

I agree on the England part, especially as regards Gerrard and Lampard. I think you can only play one of them or the teams loses out.

Just on what you are saying about the Germans though, Klose deffo had a bad season but always turns it on for Germany, a bit like Michael Robinson for Ireland many years ago.

Podolski though is a left midfielder with a lot of defensive responsibility for Cologne, he was played up front at Bayern when he went there because Ribery plays left midfield and he is not a forward. At club level he has done well this past season for a very poor Cologne side, but people look for goal stats with Podolski and that is not going to happen for him with such a poor club or at a bigger club being forced to play out of position.
When he plays for Germany he is in left midfield for one of the most powerful international teams and as a result can get forward regularly without having to worry about defensive duties.

amacachi

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

did england win the world cup in the 70's and 80's?

You're talking about Xboxes as if they're the cause of England's failure when their failure has been going on since well before Xboxes were around. If I misconstrued your point I apologised.

Papa Smut wrote: »

That's what I also thought. But look at the Spanish team for instance. 8 players from Barca, 5 players from Real. There can be no doubt that in a game where they play against each other, they hate each other. But it all gets put aside in the national interest, when the national team is playing, which is also interesting. How many of those players would prefer to play for a Catalan national team?

I don't know if that bitterness is THAT ingrained in the English team, and something I don't see in the Scottish, Welsh and Irish teams.

There's an argument against it certainly. As soon as I posted I though of the Spanish, many of whom would rather play under another flag, but they manage to gel still. There just seems to be something stopping the English from gelling, perhaps it's just a lack of talent afterall. :pac:

WesternZulu

everdead.ie wrote: »

I tell ya England need to make a British isles team if they got there hands on Bale and the arsenal chap who's name escapes me they'd be such a better team for it both could start and improve that team.
Edit Ramsey that's who I meant.

You mean as in a Uk team?
Don't think a British Isles team would go down so well over here (well they could change it to team Atlantic Archipelago, that might work :pac: )

tony1kenobi

SarahBM wrote: »

name any english players who play in foreign leagues!!!.

Beckham.

Just not good enough.

Every single player was terrible right through the team.

Massive reality check for England.

There's definately a HUGE difference between best in the premiership v best in the world.

everdead.ie

everdead.ie wrote: »

I tell ya England need to make a British isles team if they got there hands on Bale and the arsenal chap who's name escapes me they'd be such a better team for it both could start and improve that team.
Edit Ramsey that's who I meant.

That oul chesnut.

So do the other nations get a choice about this hidious idea?

dats_right

Time and time again at major championships, England get shown up for exactly how poor they are. Not good enough is the only reason why they don't succeed.

keane2097

rarnes1 wrote: »

Just not good enough.

Every single player was terrible right through the team.

Massive reality check for England.

There's definately a HUGE difference between best in the premiership v best in the world.

I don't really agree with this tbh.

England are lacking a couple of central midfielders who are capable of playing a good, posession based game.

As individuals, many of their players are at the top of the world game, it's just the two or three central midfielders who don't have the passing ability to be the best at International level.

Lampard and Gerrard are both fantastic players, but - as had been mentioned already - they are only capable of good performance when playing with foreign midfield partners who can do the bread and butter work for them, Ballack for Chelsea and Xabi Alonso when he was at Liverpool illustrate this perfectly.

Wolfe Tone

Quite simply they are just sh1t. Every time its the same, hype hype hype.

karma_

keane2097 wrote: »

Lampard and Gerrard are both fantastic players, but - as had been mentioned already - they are only capable of good performance when playing with foreign midfield partners who can do the bread and butter work for them, Ballack for Chelsea and Xabi Alonso when he was at Liverpool illustrate this perfectly.

How long has everyone known that Gerrard and Lampard do not play together? Why did Capello not show some backbone and drop one of them if it is obvious it will not work? He allows the media to pressure to have an adverse effect on his choices.

keane2097

keane2097 wrote: »

I don't really agree with this tbh.

England are lacking a couple of central midfielders who are capable of playing a good, posession based game.

As individuals, many of their players are at the top of the world game, it's just the two or three central midfielders who don't have the passing ability to be the best at International level.

Lampard and Gerrard are both fantastic players, but - as had been mentioned already - they are only capable of good performance when playing with foreign midfield partners who can do the bread and butter work for them, Ballack for Chelsea and Xabi Alonso when he was at Liverpool illustrate this perfectly.

What about Johnson/Terry/Upsom/Milner/James/Rooney/Barry?

What's the excuses for them? They were all hopeless. It can't all be blamed on the centre of midfield.

Jayob10

Bad management, disharmony, poor players?

Its a bit of everything.

Management

Capello is a top manager. His record at club level is excellent. And I do laugh when I hear the likes of Shearer and Dixon slate him.
However, he must come under scrutiny for his system of play. Does he try and keep it tight and the back and hope to nick a goal @ a risk of being boring and infuriating the media and general public?
Or does he pander to them and play an attacking line up and try and play attractive football?
Of all managers I felt Capello was the only one in world football who would never pander to the media but he did just that by bringing in Jermaine Defoe to partner Wayne Rooney. Both have played sparringly together so it does not make any sense to partner them together in attack.

Disharmony

Body language means nothing really, but you get the impression Rooney does not enjoy playing for England. Theres a feeling in the North of England that its pretty much club over country when push comes to shove. this is even the case up there for some supporters.
Playing for England seems to mean alot more to Londoners who basically just see London as England.
There has always been a north south divide in england set ups and players co exist more than anything.
The players may also not respond to Capellos methods but there comes a time when you have to ask, who the hell can manage this bunch of players?? Apart from maybe Mourinho there is no other manager in world football with the respect and tactical nous of Capello. So many have tried and failed. And in turn have been labelled not up to task when push comes to shove.

Player quality

We can all say that these players are not as good as the media make out, but even if thats the case these players are capable of more than they are showing. However if you go through the side with a fine comb:

James- solid pro, experienced in the premiership but never tested at champions league level. Iker Casillas said before the WC that this position would be englands achilles heel. You need a settled and experienced keeper going into this tournament. A young keeper with all the talent in the world can be made look very foolish in the pressure cooker cauldron. James should have been number 1 all along, in the build up and played in every friendly.

Johnson This is guy is a disaster waiting to happen. How on earth he is not turned into a winger is beyond me. Costing 18 million does not make you a world class defender. Destablised both liverpool and englands defence whenever he has played, despite his frequent attacks with usually amount to nothing.

A.Cole One of the few world class players who has english nationality

Terry media hype would leave you believe he is the greatest defender since Bobby Moore. He is a solid pro, who flourished under Mourinho in a system that protected him and worked to his strengths. Not the same player as 3-4 years ago, and his lack of pace in criminally exposed at this level.

Upson should be nowhere near the squad let alone the team. He hasnt had enough game time to be comfortable under pressure. it struck me watching the game- would Upson be as good as Richard Dunne? I would say there is much of a muchness, the difference being Dunner has vast experience playing in crucial international games. And it shows. Upson doesn't and it also showed today. Also never tested at european level, not even in the europa league.

Milner a one paced winger with one season playing in central midfield for Villa. Apparently worth 30 million. Shown up in the europa league which is the highest level he has played at club wise. In fairness, he is an honest pro who always works his socks off.

Lampard and Gerrard As the old cliche goes, these 2 in the same side doesnt work. It has been proved in the past. After watching the USA game I thought a good side would overrun them in the centre of midfield. Neither is a play maker, both like to be on the end of things. Both are good players, a notch below world class right now but to get the best out of either you need the balls to drop one of them.

Barry A left full, turned centre back turned midfielder. Apparently he is a defensive midfielder but I just don't see it, has none of the attributes needed to play there. His best role at Villa was arriving late in the box to score goals ala Lampard. He didnt pull up any trees at City in a sitting role. Too slow to deal with nippy player who drop into the hole. A good squad player nonetheless for his versatility.

Defoe Pacy striker, effective for playing off the shoulder but doesnt cut it at international level. Another player who found himself a starter despite damn all success in his previous outings alongside Rooney. His goal against Slovenia disguised 2 poor performances. Can only play one way, ball over the top. Much like Heskey can only play one way.

Rooney a genuine top class talent (and im a pool fan), but he looks lost in this set up. If we are honest he is not in the very top bracket of player, in that he needs support in all areas to be effective. He went missing far too often when in theory he should be making england tick the way he inspires Man Utd.

Now when you look at the above summary you'd have to say that England have some decent players, but the expectations are criminally high. Before the game I heard Gary Linekear say that theres nobody in this german team we would take for our own team. That really sums up the bubble the majority of england fans live in. Every 2 years after a major tournament they are genuinely bewildered as to where it all goes wrong.

England need to play a settled goalkeeper for every game from now until the next Euros. Even in the friendlies. Give the shirt to Joe hart and tell him its his regardless of initial blunders within reason of course.. Instill some confidence

Choose a core of 3-4 central defenders and play them regularly. For big games always go with your top two. And give the back up options 90 minutes in friendlies.

Its also CRUCIAL for them to unearth an effective defenisve midfielder at this level. Someone with pace to cover the width of the pitch in front of the back four, anticipation to spot runners and make tackles and distribute possession quickly and effectively. Hargreaves would have suited this role had he not been injured. This is not a flair player that england have trouble finding. This is someone who will embody what England should be good at.

Saying they need to find someone who can thread midfield and attack together is easy to say as these players come around once in a blue moon. But failing that, they need to attack the space better, let the ball do the work rather than bust a gut trying to find gaps. Its not something instilled from youth it can worked at on the training ground and improves with confidence.

I think alot of the "superstars" in the england squad are unmanageable. they live in a comfort zone at their clubs, where they are the main men. They always end up questioning a managers methods, regardless of who the manager is.
Capello would probably have been better off with an even more inexperienced side that he could drill and discipline as he saw fit. A team devoid of the so called superstars such as terry, Lampard and gerrard etc..... I do believe he is being undermined on certain levels by older players who feel they know what England needs when the same people have been part of the malaise for years.

MisterAnarchy

keane2097 wrote: »

England are lacking a couple of central midfielders who are capable of playing a good, posession based game.

As individuals, many of their players are at the top of the world game, it's just the two or three central midfielders who don't have the passing ability to be the best at International level.

Yes,they badly need a playmaker,someone who can take the ball from defence and link the midfield but they probably wont get one due to the style of football being encouraged at underage level in England .

everdead.ie

rarnes1 wrote: »

That oul chesnut.

So do the other nations get a choice about this hidious idea?

I don't think it should or would happen but I was Neely trying to point out that these players have the abilities England currently lack

Do people realise that lampard and Gerrard didn't play in the middle together the last two games?

Gerrard was on the left.

It was Lampard and Barry in the middle.

Headshot

rarnes1 wrote: »

Do people realise that lampard and Gerrard didn't play in the middle together the last two games?

Gerrard was on the left.

.

makes no difference he was still wandering into the middle hence no outlet on the left during todays game

Jayob10

rarnes1 wrote: »

Do people realise that lampard and Gerrard didn't play in the middle together the last two games?

Gerrard was on the left.

It was Lampard and Barry in the middle.

Yes of course we realise, but the point is that both dont work in the same side.

The English are bemused they can't play together like they play for their clubs. Gerrard can't do that when hes on the left mainly to provide balance, and if he was to partner Lampard in the middle we have all seen from the past, and even against USA that its a pointless exercise.

To get the best out of one, you need to drop the other. Lampard has been given his fair share of opportunities in the middle of Midfield and personally I dont see how they would have been more successful with Gerrard in Lampards role.

If they cannot play together then you need to question if they are really top players.

MisterAnarchy

rarnes1 wrote: »

Do people realise that lampard and Gerrard didn't play in the middle together the last two games?

Gerrard was on the left.

He may as well have been on the bench such was his influence on the game.

Agreed, he was hopeless like the whole England XI.

That's what happens when you play an attacking mid on the left wing.

Jayob10

Jayob10 wrote: »

Yes of course we realise, but the point is that both dont work in the same side.

The English are bemused they can't play together like they play for their clubs. Gerrard can't do that when hes on the left mainly to provide balance, and if he was to partner Lampard in the middle we have all seen from the past, and even against USA that its a pointless exercise.

To get the best out of one, you need to drop the other. Lampard has been given his fair share of opportunities in the middle of Midfield and personally I dont see how they would have been more successful with Gerrard in Lampards role.

If they cannot play together then you need to question if they are really top players.

Are any of the England players world class players in fairness or is it just because we are fed english games and media in Ireland?

Rooney was being compared to Messi not so long ago? He was as bad as anyone today.

nullzero

John Terry was a disaster today, really really poor in his play, but more importantly his judgement.
The third and fourth goals were scored on the counter attack after England had taken a set piece. John Terry took it upon himself to make his way into the German area on both occassions and made no attempt to get back into his defensive position when England lost possession, leaving a gaping hole in the English defence and thus allowing Germany to score two very easy goals.

Yes England were generally poor, but they should never have conceded as many goals as they did and unfortunately for John Terry it was his fault.
Gerrard was also all over the place, he was trying to play the hero too often with wild shots when he should have been playing his team mates into easy scoring positions. Rooney has had a terrible tournament, but he showed the type of vision and footballing intelligence that Gerrard was lacking when he had team mates ahead of him, those occassions were few and far between however.

Germany deserved their win, but should they face Argentina in the next round it's hard to imagine them having such an easy time of it as they had against an awful English defence which was sorely missing Ferdinand, who we can only assume would have done immeasurably better than Terry and Carragher/Upson had he been there.

It's tempting to laugh at England and it's also tempting to hail Germany as genuine challengers for the world cup, but the former would be like shooting fish in a barrell and the latter still really has to be tested against a resolute defensive system and a strong attacking system which you would expect Argentina to provide should they get past Mexico as expected.

Handsome Bob

In my honest opinion there is zero team spirit in the English team. It's all about personal glory and having someone else to blame.

In regards to personal glory, take Germany's 4th goal for example, Ozil was clean through but it was in too much of a difficult position for a decent shot. So what does he do? He passes the ball to the guy in the much better position for a shot and it resulted in an easy goal. If that was Rooney and Defoe instead of Ozil and Muller Rooney would have taken the shot on instead of passing to the much better positioned Defoe.

England are Hollywood, a bunch of dreamers who want to be the centre of attention and the focus of the headlines. Compare them to the efficient and organised "any means possible" Germans and it's easy to see why England are out.

No team spirit. No work ethic. And all too eager to pass the buck.

ctrl-alt-delete

DB10 wrote: »

Spot on. As long as guys like Tony Pulis, and Big Sam are given plaudits in the PL, this will all continue.

Yeah, cos the first German goal was a footballing masterpiece

MisterAnarchy

rarnes1 wrote: »

Rooney was being compared to Messi not so long ago? He was as bad as anyone today.

Being compared by the gombeenmen on Sky Sports and their pion knowledge of world football.
Militos comments today were very fair I thought

Argentina's Diego Milito has hit out at Wayne Rooney, claiming it is "laughable" to suggest he is on a par with FIFA World Player of the Year Lionel Messi.

Milito, who struggles to get into the Argentina team despite winning the Champions League with Inter Milan last season, has revealed that if they face England in the quarter-finals in Cape Town on July 3, they will not consider man-marking the England forward.

"When we hear the English or anybody else in the world of football trying to compare Wayne Rooney with Messi, we find it laughable" Milito told the Daily Star Sunday. "Rooney is a very good player there is no doubt about that - but to put him on the same level as Messi is wrong. It's not up for debate, it's just wrong.

"We are looking at a player in Messi who, when he retires, may very well be the best player to have graced the game. How can he be compared to anybody currently playing, let alone a player who has never ever won World Player of the Year?

"While I don't agree with it, I can understand Messi being compared to Kaka and Ronaldo, but Rooney? No, no, no."

And the Inter forward added: "Like I said, I think Rooney is a very good player, maybe even a top 20 player in the world - but that doesn't make him Messi, it doesn't even make him close to Messi. It's a long way off but if we do draw England in the quarter-finals, Rooney will be a player we show respect to.

"But Messi is marked by five or six players at a time and I don't see us doing that to Rooney.

"Messi has told us that he doesn't want to be considered a legend until he has won a World Cup - but like it or not, the boy is already a legend."

Pisco Sour

The fact of the matter is England are not a top team. Their record in major championships since 1966 (and indeed before 1966) has been shocking.

Since losing to Germany in 1970 World Cup England have failed to qualify for 7 of the 20 major championships since then. For a country of 50 million people where football is the No. 1 game that is a shocking record.

In that time they have made just 2 major semi finals, 1990 and 1996 (when they were the host nation). So history has shown that they are not a top team, so why oh why do people constantly seem to consider them as contenders for these championships!?

England as a football nation are a failure. Look at Denmark, Greece, Netherlands etc. All with significantly smaller populations and all of whom have won major titles in recent times.

England. Overhyped.

Hoki

LZ5by5 wrote: »

In my honest opinion there is zero team spirit in the English team. It's all about personal glory and having someone else to blame.

In regards to personal glory, take Germany's 4th goal for example, Ozil was clean through but it was in too much of a difficult position for a decent shot. So what does he do? He passes the ball to the guy in the much better position for a shot and it resulted in an easy goal. If that was Rooney and Defoe instead of Ozil and Muller Rooney would have taken the shot on instead of passing to the much better positioned Defoe.

England are Hollywood, a bunch of dreamers who want to be the centre of attention and the focus of the headlines. Compare them to the efficient and organised "any means possible" Germans and it's easy to see why England are out.

No team spirit. No work ethic. And all too eager to pass the buck.

In fairness thats a load of manure, in the 2nd half Rooney had a clear shooting chance but instead played in Milner who did his best to put the ball through Frierdichs back. However, i would agree with you had you said Gerrard who did his best to shoot from any position as long as he was in the final 1/3 of the pitch.

Pepe LeFrits

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Yes,they badly need a playmaker,someone who can take the ball from defence and link the midfield but they probably wont get one due to the style of football being encouraged at underage level in England .

They'll have one at 2012.

End of the line for a lot of these England players I reckon. Time for them to build a new team. They've plenty of talented young players to be optimistic about.

eagle eye

Jayob10 wrote: »

Milner a one paced winger with one season playing in central midfield for Villa. Apparently worth 30 million. Shown up in the europa league which is the highest level he has played at club wise. In fairness, he is an honest pro who always works his socks off.

James Milner is a class act, you are talking Sh1te.

Jayob10 wrote: »

Lampard and Gerrard As the old cliche goes, these 2 in the same side doesnt work. It has been proved in the past. After watching the USA game I thought a good side would overrun them in the centre of midfield. Neither is a play maker, both like to be on the end of things. Both are good players, a notch below world class right now but to get the best out of either you need the balls to drop one of them.

You lump Lampard and Gerrard together here. Frank Lampard played very well today but you don't even mention that.
Gerrard was playing out of position, one shouldn't be on the field in fairness but Lampard has been one of the best midfielders consistently for a long time now and Gerrard too but not this past season.

Jayob10 wrote: »

Rooney a genuine top class talent (and im a pool fan), but he looks lost in this set up. If we are honest he is not in the very top bracket of player, in that he needs support in all areas to be effective. He went missing far too often when in theory he should be making england tick the way he inspires Man Utd.

Rooney hasn't been near his best in this World Cup, its got nothing to do with systems or anything else, he personally has been struggling. He played better today than in previous games this World Cup, in fact he improved a little in the last game and then again in this one but he is still way off his normal self. I'm starting to think that his being rushed back for the Bayern tie in the Champion's League did untold damage.
And Rooney is in the very top bracket, he has been the driving force behind United's last three titles. While Ronaldo was getting the goals he was working his socks off, he then becomes a goal machine this season.

JP Liz V1

Who the hell was the captain for England during the WC matches?

Capello I assume is gone now

Maybe its all the headlines about off the pitch but the team never played with heart or as team totally together imo