England: The Post Mortem

Handsome Bob

If there's anything good to come out of England's campaign please let it be the dispelling of the myth that Rooney benefits from Heskey playing alongside him because he's been as muck as Heskey himself. Give the man who actually deserves and who has earned his place a chance. The man with 19 goals in 21 games FFS.

OPENROAD

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Who the hell was the captain for England during the WC matches?

Capello I assume is gone now

Maybe its all the headlines about off the pitch but the team never played with heart or as team totally together imo

Gerrard, showed himself up imo, not half the player as many say here

leninbenjamin

tbh I don't think it's fair to condemn Heskey, or indeed any of the English forwards on the back of this WC. Biggest problem is that the service is absolutely awful, the midfield were woeful, continually looking to do the spectacular instead of the simple thing. Made life really difficult for Defoe, Heskey and Rooney imo.

mike65

England potentially do have a playmaker, he plays for an unfashionable club in west London. He has an Irish name.

steelcityblues

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Who the hell was the captain for England during the WC matches?

Capello I assume is gone now

Maybe its all the headlines about off the pitch but the team never played with heart or as team totally together imo

Steven Gerrard in name - John Terry in reality!

Maybe for some Premiership fans here, they should admit that the team were never special to begin with, and a large part of the 'big four's' successes in recent years can be put down to C. Ronaldo, Henry, Fabregas, Drogba, Torres, Evra, etc.

dfx-

There was some buried news story a few years ago about Trevor Brooking in his FA youth role

Basically complaining about the technical ability of the 8, 9, 10 year olds coming through...

They're the next generation and the FA would do well to spend the millions there than Capello pay-offs..

OPENROAD

steelcityblues wrote: »

Steven Gerrard in name - John Terry in reality!

Maybe for some Premiership fans here, they should admit that the team were never special to begin with, and a large part of the 'big four's' successes in recent years can be put down to C. Ronaldo, Henry, Fabregas, Drogba, Torres, Evra, etc.

You always hear on here how great the likes of Glen Johnson, Gerrard and Rooney are on here

Jayob10

eagle eye wrote: »

James Milner is a class act, you are talking Sh1te.

You lump Lampard and Gerrard together here. Frank Lampard played very well today but you don't even mention that.
Gerrard was playing out of position, one shouldn't be on the field in fairness but Lampard has been one of the best midfielders consistently for a long time now and Gerrard too but not this past season.



Rooney hasn't been near his best in this World Cup, its got nothing to do with systems or anything else, he personally has been struggling. He played better today than in previous games this World Cup, in fact he improved a little in the last game and then again in this one but he is still way off his normal self. I'm starting to think that his being rushed back for the Bayern tie in the Champion's League did untold damage.
And Rooney is in the very top bracket, he has been the driving force behind United's last three titles. While Ronaldo was getting the goals he was working his socks off, he then becomes a goal machine this season.

We will have to agree to disagree in relation to James Milner. I certainly wouldn't say he is a class act. Not at the highest level.

As for Lampard being one of the best midfielders in a long time, he has scored goals galore for Chelsea yes, but he hasn't shown up for England. In fact he hasn't done it in the previous 2 tournaments for England.
This has obviously got something to do with his role in the england team being different. He is not the focal point of the midfield, arriving late in the box or finding the net from the edge of the box. He has support in the Chelsea team allowing him to play a very specific role for his club, he does not have the same support with England. He must do a bit of everything.

England have a few players who needs the side to be built around them, Rooney, Gerrard and Lampard. Now I agree Rooney does work his socks off and is a team player but to elevate himself into the top bracket he needs the team to be built around him to showcase his strengths. And I dont personally think Rooney is in the top bracket on par with Messi and Ronaldo etc...

These are players who can create something from nothing. People can make all the excuses they want about Rooneys fitness etc... he played every game, and in essence he just didnt make an impact. He has proved he is not superman. Rooney has scored goals galore in the premiership yes, but you really need to question the quality of opposition also.

LuckyLloyd

Just a couple of tiny bits of food for thought:

- England strolled their qualifying group. So people have to think about what (if anything) changed since last November?;

- Last November you looked at the English team and their center back pairing / left back and said "that might be the strongest defense of any team in the World Cup". Then Ferdinand got crocked repeatedly; there was the whole Terry saga; Ashley Cole had his run in to the tournament also disrupted. As such, a key strength to their team became a problem area;

- Heskey was a genuine contributer to the qualifying campaign, but went completely off the boil between November and the end of the season - enduring some of his worst form ever at club level. Gerrard's season got worse and worse and worse. Rooney got an inhibiting injury towards season's end also;


I'm not saying that England as they were last November should have been favourites for the WC of course. But the above certainly begins to point towards why there was such a disparity between what was expected of them (hype) and what they were actually capable of in the tournament (reality).

The lads in RTE got it spot on. The disallowed goal WAS horrendous. But when you assess the overall flow of the 90 minutes and tournament as a whole thus far, the end scoreline was a fair reflection of the respective abilities of the two teams.

I think there are fundamental problems with the type of footballers representing England that leaves Capello (or anyone) with their work cut out. The default setting for these guys at club level is to play a certain type of game, in a certain set up that is very different to what is required to win an International tournament.

Gerrard, Terry, Ferdinand, Lampard, James and Cole are guys that started today who will be on a downward trajectory in their careers in two years time; and significantly disimproved in four. But they weren't good enough. Different players, of a different disposition are required.

mike65

OPENROAD wrote: »

You always hear on here how great the likes of Glen Johnson, Gerrard and Rooney are on here

They are great, in a system/team mix that suits their talents. This was a hodge podge of a side playing a lumpy 4-4-2. It was never comfortable or effective.

- England strolled their qualifying group. So people have to think about what (if anything) changed since last November?

It was a piss easy group to qualify from. That was no real test and the failings of Capello got exposed when push came to shove. England only kept 3 clean sheets I think. They just scored loads cos it was easy opposition.

turly

Quoting this comment by 'richiebear' on one of the Beeb blogs. Best comment there.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/davidbond/2010/06/bond.html#P97708551 wrote:

Sorry keep banging the same drum but im going to anyway!!

This isn’t Capellos fault and anyone who says it is knows nothing about football. Its not even the players fault. The reason its not the players fault is simple, its not their fault they aren’t good enough. It’s not their fault they don’t have the footballing brains to compete at the highest level. It’s the F.A and governments fault pure and simple. Until there is a concerted effort by the 2 bodies to make fundamental changes at grass roots you can have any manager you want in charge, England will never win a major tournament. Spain have 750 fully qualified Grade A UEFA trained coaches compared to under 150 in England. But that’s not even the clincher. The most striking point is this, 150 Grade coaches in England all coach at professional or semi professional level to fully grown men. 640 of the Grade A coaches in Spain teach in SCHOOLS. They coach 5 year olds and up how to play the game. One touch football, pass and move, to actually think about the game when playing. Have a football brain and use it. 15 years ago the Spanish F.A and government changed the whole youth set up from 5 years of age up. 15 years later and they have a group of maybe 7 or 8 world class players in their national team! Sheer luck? Coincidence? I don’t think so. So no its not Capellos fault, its not the players fault. Its the F.A and Governments for not wanting to take the long term route to solve the problem and taking a quick fix method, and maybe even the media for spouting and trying to feed the public the myth that England have world class players and the premier league is the best in the world.
England qualified from a god awful group and as soon as the competition got a little bit higher and little bit stiffer, they were shown up for what they really are. Over hyped. Over paid, spoilt little idiots.
I may sound like an English basher but im far from it. I want England to win a major tournament,I also want the other 3 home nations and Republic of Ireland to be at these tournaments but for any of it to happen there has to be changes. All F.As and all governments need to come together now to address the issues or let this go on for another 44 years. No Manager can change what tools he has to use so it doesn’t whether its Harry Redknapp or Harry Houdini who gets the job next. Stick with Capello but let him have a bigger say in what happens at grass roots.The maybe 15 years from now England the rest of the home nations have teams worth shouting about.

OPENROAD

OPENROAD wrote: »

You always hear on here how great the likes of Glen Johnson, Gerrard and Rooney are on here

In fairness Rooney was unreal this season for united. That can't be questioned. Johnson decent enough. Gerrard had a poor season but his previous 6/7 were great.

No England player showed themselves as world class.


On a serperate note, is any premiership player standing out in the WC so far? None jumps to mind straight away

Kiwi_knock

As has been said before in this thread the squad was too divided, they did not seem to want to play for each other. England too often pick the best player in each position instead of the best player for the team. There is too many individual players, they need a collective mentality. There seems to be no pride in playing for the jersey anymore.

OPENROAD

rarnes1 wrote: »

In fairness Rooney was unreal this season for united. That can't be questioned. Johnson decent enough. Gerrard had a poor season but his previous 6/7 were great.

No England player showed themselves as world class.


On a serperate note, is any premiership player standing out in the WC so far? None jumps to mind straight away

They are either world class or not, hyped up or not, opinion can't change depending on what jersey they are wearing.

Jayob10

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Just a couple of tiny bits of food for thought:

- England strolled their qualifying group. So people have to think about what (if anything) changed since last November?;

- Last November you looked at the English team and their center back pairing / left back and said "that might be the strongest defense of any team in the World Cup". Then Ferdinand got crocked repeatedly; there was the whole Terry saga; Ashley Cole had his run in to the tournament also disrupted. As such, a key strength to their team became a problem area;

- Heskey was a genuine contributer to the qualifying campaign, but went completely off the boil between November and the end of the season - enduring some of his worst form ever at club level. Gerrard's season got worse and worse and worse. Rooney got an inhibiting injury towards season's end also;


I'm not saying that England as they were last November should have been favourites for the WC of course. But the above certainly begins to point towards why there was such a disparity between what was expected of them (hype) and what they were actually capable of in the tournament (reality).

The lads in RTE got it spot on. The disallowed goal WAS horrendous. But when you assess the overall flow of the 90 minutes and tournament as a whole thus far, the end scoreline was a fair reflection of the respective abilities of the two teams.

I think there are fundamental problems with the type of footballers representing England that leaves Capello (or anyone) with their work cut out. The default setting for these guys at club level is to play a certain type of game, in a certain set up that is very different to what is required to win an International tournament.

Gerrard, Terry, Ferdinand, Lampard, James and Cole are guys that started today who will be on a downward trajectory in their careers in two years time; and significantly disimproved in four. But they weren't good enough. Different players, of a different disposition are required.

agree wholeheartedly. as I have said in previous posts, the so called superstars of the team need their club sides to be built around them before we see their best. And this doesn't and never will transfer to international football.

I do believe Capello should stay on and bring in a raft of new players, players who are willing to learn. Let him drill them and give them the discipline they need to be an affective team @ international level.

At the core of the issue, its not really about talent, its about application of it

Wexler12

Rooney is like the slimmer Ronaldo, struting around, giving out to others for his mistakes, standing still when he loses the ball, big name in England not outside

OPENROAD

Wexler12 wrote: »

Rooney is like the slimmer Ronaldo, struting around, giving out to others for his mistakes, standing still when he loses the ball, big name in England not outside

And in Ireland from August- May

steelcityblues

BTW, When was the last time the red jersey proved 'unlucky' for England in a big tournament?

Must be going back a very long time!

Wexler12

OPENROAD wrote: »

And in Ireland from August- May

Thats Irish people for ya

the_monkey

I can't wait to see the DOWNFALL scene for England losing to Germany...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqAk2EZyRDM

Leiva

Over rated - Under Achievers .

Dont be at yourself

They need to pick players to suit a system, not try to shoehorn their best players into the manager's favourite system.

4-4-2 has had its day. It's consistently beaten by teams playing 4-2-3-1.

Barry is not even close to a ball-winning midfielder. Cattermole would have made a much bigger impact against Germany.

Rooney looks lost up front. He didn't link up well with Defoe, or with Heskey. Dropped deep too much. He should be the focal point of the attack, not a side show.

The Muppet

England were crap in every game , not one of their players played as well as we know they can. I blame the tactics employed , no width and very little creativity.On the plus side the new manager will have to change the sysytem as many of the established players are obvioulsy no longer up to playing at this level.

Leiva

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

They need to pick players to suit a system, not try to shoehorn their best players into the manager's favourite system.

4-4-2 has had its day. It's consistently beaten by teams playing 4-2-3-1.

Barry is not even close to a ball-winning midfielder. Cattermole would have made a much bigger impact against Germany.

Rooney looks lost up front. He didn't link up well with Defoe, or with Heskey. Dropped deep too much. He should be the focal point of the attack, not a side show.

Nekki,
Your dead right and have hit the nail on the head.
Capello's 4-4-2 is outdated , you will get away with it with the quality England have in say the qualifying group they faced etc , but when faced with playing the Germans who simply played OZIL between the 4 mid and 2 front men upsets both midfield and front combinations for England .
Ozil just kept finding the hole in between and Barry looked like a headless chicken .
Instead of dropping to say a 4-2-3-1 which would have meant less roaming for Ozil and been tighter on Sweinsteiger (my motm) you would have seen less supply to the front of the German attack.
It was as plain to see , but what is Capellos 1st sub ? Heskey ????
We all know the English players are alot better than what we have seen in recent weeks , the resposibility firmly lays on Capellos lap .

M.

Chucky the tree

I agree with most of NBM post but I don't really agree the whole "4-4-2" is out of date theory.

flahavaj

4-4-2 isn't necessarily out of date, but you need to have four absolutely top notch players for it to be effective at the highest level:two specialist widemen, (one naturally left footed) and two world class midfielders who can play box to box in order for it to work. The United midfield of the late 90's with Giggs, Beckham, Keane and Scholes is the last quartet that springs to mind that ticks all those boxes.

A 4-2-3-1 allows you to play in between the lines and m,eans you an cover up the limitations of a player who is purely a defensive midfielder more easily.

EKRIUQ

OPENROAD

Richard and Andy on SSN now

Mr.Nice Guy

OPENROAD wrote: »

Richard and Andy on SSN now

Is Gray lobbying for Shearer to get the job? :eek:

Kiwi_knock

OPENROAD wrote: »

Richard and Andy on SSN now

Why are they in Los Angeles

OPENROAD

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Why are they in Los Angeles

Nice weather

Kiwi_knock

Gray is talking some sense so far

OPENROAD

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Is Gray lobbying for Shearer to get the job? :eek:

Think Apres match must have got mixed in by mistake

Kiwi_knock

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Gray is talking some sense so far

Im taking that back he just said Becks should take over

PHB

4-4-2 isnt out of date, it just doesnt bloody work when you dont have the players for it.

A classic 4-4-2? Fast wingers. All round central midfielders. Absolutely required.
Instead todays 4 in midfield was a central attacking midfield playing left wing, a central attacking midfield playing central midfield, a ****e defensive midfielder playing central midfield and an attacking midfielder playing right wing. No width, no pace, nobody having a ****ing clue what they are meant to be doing.

LuckyLloyd

Name the top teams in world football today who play a traditional 4 - 4 - 2?

The game at the highest levels has moved on from it.

fryup

I think the king of pundits John Giles

hit the nail on the head when he said that english players play well for their clubs thanks to their foreign teammates

OPENROAD

fryup wrote: »

I think the king of pundits John Giles

hit the nail on the head when he said that english players play well for their clubs thanks to their foreign teammates

Not too sure I would agree with him

Kiwi_knock

4-4-2 can still work but it was never going to work for England. They did not have the players for it, they had no international class left winger and right winger that was not trusted by the manager. Playing 4 centre mids in the midfield was never going to work. Capello was too stubborn in not changing his formation, everyone could see 4-4-2 did not suit the team and did not play to their individual strengths. It may have looked like weakness by Capello by bowing to media pressure to change the formation but he should have changed it up because it was blatantly obvious that England had no chance playing with their current formation.

adox

fryup wrote: »

I think the king of pundits John Giles

hit the nail on the head when he said that english players play well for their clubs thanks to their foreign teammates

To be honest, I think going into the world cup there was over expectation and now that they have flopped so badly ther is an over reaction.

I thought England were awful from the first ball kicked to the last shockingly bad, both as a team and as individuals. Now I know that at least half that team are a lot better than that. The excuses that the foreign players make the English players look better for their clubs is just over stating the fact.

There was something seriously wrong with the England camp that's for sure, be it the players not happy with the manager or his tactics or some in-house fighting. I truly believe something like that happened and affected the performances.

Sure England were over hyped going into the tournament but I just don't buy that is the level that those players can perform at.

There is a hint of hypocrisy from posters moaning about English players being over hyped, over paid and totally overvalued and then posting that they just can play without foreigners along side them.

Woeful world cup from England, not one player did himself justice and they really need to look carefully at what went wrong, but a bit of perspective is called for.

Just my tuppence worth.

Leiva

Capello just said he is staying on .

super_furry

The tabloids will push for Redknapp and he'll go for it.

OPENROAD

super_furry wrote: »

The tabloids will push for Redknapp and he'll go for it.

Hope so just when spurs get in the CL :D

OPENROAD

adox wrote: »

There is a hint of hypocrisy from posters moaning about English players being over hyped, over paid and totally overvalued and then posting that they just can play without foreigners along side them.

.

Spot on

super_furry

England's problems do seem to have started when John Terry's affair with Wayne Bridge's ex came to light. It's not difficult to imagine that this split the dressing room.

fryup

steve staunton should send in his cv,

OPENROAD

fryup wrote: »

steve staunton should send in his cv,

Well he is the gaffer

leninbenjamin

super_furry wrote: »

England's problems do seem to have started when John Terry's affair with Wayne Bridge's ex came to light. It's not difficult to imagine that this split the dressing room.

Englands problems are everything and anything... I don't think anyone can point to any single thing, there was a heap of unfortunate circumstances that disrupted the team,

firstly, Heskey, Walcott, two players who were central to Capello's plans and system during qualification completely lost form. The injury to Barry didn't help things either, I think he's a better player than he played in this World Cup, but he just didn't look sharp at all.

Ferdinand, and his direct replacement King getting injured meant England lost their two best ball playing CBs. This undermined their 4-4-2 to some extent as it made it even more difficult to play out of defence.

The captaincy thing... blah.

Rooney completely losing form and sharpness. I think the altitude training had a role to play here, but no doubt the injury was a major factor also.

Gerrard having one of the worst seasons of his professional career didn't help. He seems to have lost all discipline and sense of position. We saw flashes of what he can do if he stays wide until the edge of the area, he can bring in Ashley Cole and Rooney into the mix. But all too often he cut inside while England still had the ball in the middle of the field, congesting things way too much.

The lack of anyone able to cross the ball. Milner, SWP and Lennon were all awful on the RW, Milner did the best but his final delivery was still awful. Completely undermined Heskey in particular.

And finally the mentality of the players is all wrong. Too many players look for the sensational "hollywood ball" far too early. At club level the best players are restricted from using this til the final third (Lampard, Gerrard in particular) because they generally play much higher up the pitch. Looking for that defence splitting pass on the edge of your own box is a bad idea though...

Dr Galen

leninbenjamin wrote: »

And finally the mentality of the players is all wrong. Too many players look for the sensational "hollywood ball" far too early. At club level the best players are restricted from using this til the final third (Lampard, Gerrard in particular) because they generally play much higher up the pitch. Looking for that defence splitting pass on the edge of your own box is a bad idea though...

while I agree with you here, there is a pretty simple solution to that....

Ush1

The glaring difference between England and Germany and any decent team really was technical ability. Purely and simply, these teams are far more comfortable on the ball. Touch, time, passing and comfort is miles apart.