England: The Post Mortem

OPENROAD

You're on Sky Sports just starting now.

And the first caller is Eamon from Dublin ........:p

Bob the Seducer

Dr Galen wrote: »

while I agree with you here, there is a pretty simple solution to that....

I have you're simple solution here

The answer to all England's problems and potential star of the next World Cup, Danny Cipriani!

(when papers start putting out stories like this it's the clearest indication yet that we're in silly season)

leninbenjamin

Dr Galen wrote: »

while I agree with you here, there is a pretty simple solution to that....

Easier said than done... if you're entire game for the past 5 years has been based around the same thing it's very difficult to change overnight. And if you were to drop them for more conservative players... well, the FA, it's sponsors, the media, and the general public at large wouldn't be too happy.

I suspect it's made clear to the English manager that certain individuals have to play for commercial reasons, it doesn't seem to matter who he is but the same mistakes are made again and again and again...

Aidric

OPENROAD wrote: »

You're on Sky Sports just starting now.

And the first caller is Eamon from Dublin ........:p

Haha. Just tuned in now. What did Eamon say?

The_Kew_Tour

The problem England seem to have is they worry about the oppisition more then they do themsleves.

They are simply not good enough to be in last 8 of world cup.

I always felt today was coming. England were due good beating for how poor they played so far in the competition and got one today.

Dr Galen

Aidric wrote: »

Haha. Just tuned in now. What did Eamon say?

something about Capello being a spoofer

SlickRic

Capello's not the main problem, the overrated players are.

there is no excuse for the lack of fight today.

there is no excuse for that first goal.

there is no excuse for the lack of a midfield, where they just let runners run at will through them.

there is no excuse for them 'buckling under the pressure'.

while Capello made some odd changes (i.e. Heskey on when you need goals desperately), and his system is probably a little outdated, there is no excuse for the sh*te the players dished out.

there was no pace, no strength, no guile, little ability to pass the ball properly or move intelligently.

if Capello carries the can for this, we've officially entered laa-laa land.

OPENROAD

Aidric wrote: »

Haha. Just tuned in now. What did Eamon say?

Kept calling Gary, Bill and referring to Tony Cascarino as a world class player

Eire-Dearg

David Blaine is gutted that his record of doing f*** all in a box for 44 days has been broken by Wayne Rooney.

eagle eye

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

They need to pick players to suit a system, not try to shoehorn their best players into the manager's favourite system.

4-4-2 has had its day. It's consistently beaten by teams playing 4-2-3-1.

Barry is not even close to a ball-winning midfielder. Cattermole would have made a much bigger impact against Germany.

Rooney looks lost up front. He didn't link up well with Defoe, or with Heskey. Dropped deep too much. He should be the focal point of the attack, not a side show.

On the Rooney thing, I'm fed up of people saying that tactics didn't suit Rooney. Its quite clear that Rooney was not near his normal self in this world cup and its got nothing to do with tactics, the man was clearly struggling with fitness, touch, everything really and its most likely all got to do with being rushed back for the Champion's League and not recovering fully from that injury. If Rooney was his normal self you can be guaranteed that he will be one of the best players on the pitch regardless of what system you play.

Any system is good if you have the players to fit into it. I prefer a 4-5-1 defending/4-3-3 in possession system but Argentina did well this evening with a diamond shaped 4-4-2. I honestly don't know what system is best for England because you have to question the performances of a lot of players.

As for Barry, the guy is a very good holding mid but he was struggling to make this World Cup, I think he also is used to playing with another holding/defensive mid and its very difficult for him coming back from injury and trying to play a position he is not used to.

I'm not making excuses for anybody involved with England though, I'm not sure the right players were picked. I don't understand how Joe Cole and Shaun Wright Phillips were picked tbh. There was nobody in the squad who is naturally comfortable on the left side, I'd have had Ashley Young in the squad who can play either side comfortably and Adam Johnson who is also able to play right or left. Both these players can run at defenses, are comfortable with the ball at their feet, are good at creating openings and for me thats what England were missing. They failed to create space for their goalscorers.

If you look at all the sides that are still in, they all have players who are comfortable taking on defenses on their own.

Capello was toying with the idea of 3-5-2 and I can see why now as England don't have anybody who is up to playing at right back. I think that is why he brought so many centre halves but he never used the system in the end.

Anyways the players did not perform to their usual standard with the exception of Ashley Cole, David James and Frank Lampard in the last two games.

flahavaj

SlickRic wrote: »

Capello's not the main problem, the overrated players are.

there is no excuse for the lack of fight today.

there is no excuse for that first goal.

there is no excuse for the lack of a midfield, where they just let runners run at will through them.

there is no excuse for them 'buckling under the pressure'.

while Capello made some odd changes (i.e. Heskey on when you need goals desperately), and his system is probably a little outdated, there is no excuse for the sh*te the players dished out.


there was no pace, no strength, no guile, little ability to pass the ball properly or move intelligently.

if Capello carries the can for this, we've officially entered laa-laa land.

I said when Capello was appointed that they could no longer use the quality of the manager as an excuse, they had appointed one of the very best in the business.

Its time these players carried the can, they have been found out time and time again at international tournaments. They are technically inferior and less comfortable on the ball than nearly every other team in the competition.


The time for radical change in English football was three years ago when an unheralded Croatian team passed their national team off the pitch at Wembley. But all the FA did was fork out millions on a new manager who couldn't do any more with the same bunch of players, good money that could have been spent on coaching structures etc.

super_furry

That German octopus is starting to get creepy.

Aidric

OPENROAD wrote: »

Kept calling Gary, Bill and referring to Tony Cascarino as a world class player

Some of the texts are comedy gold.

Peyton Manning

An excerpt from a piece I did for BPF on England's tactics...

1. System Error

We all know what it looks like. You’re on your computer working on an important document of project, when all of a sudden, it disappears. It’s vanished. Gone, all gone. All that remains is a blue screen, a grey box, and those two dreaded words – System Error. Fabio Capello doesn’t strike me as someone who uses a computer all too often, but surely the 64 year old will be seeing a similar message as he closes his eyes in bed tonight. Frank Lampard and Steven Gerrard’s inability to form a midfield partnership is English football’s worst-kept secret, so while re-adjusting Gerrard to a more left-sided role against the likes of Slovenia may provide a quick-fix solution, it is not in England’s best interest to deploy one of their best players in a position he is frankly uncomfortable with. Gerrard’s natural instict is to drift infield, dragging his marker with him and further packing the midfield, which may explain the Three Lions’ tendencies to resort to a route one philosophy. England’s lack of a holding midfield player is well documented at this stage, but less explored is the effect this absence has on Gerrard and Lampard.

Neither are players that can influence a game if they are forced to come deep to collect the ball. Gerrard is at his best at Liverpool with what was Xabi Alonso – now Lucas or Alberto Aquilani – forging a link between defence and midfield and giving their captain the ball to create that second link between midfield and attack. Likewise at Chelsea, who prefer to move the ball out of defence using their full backs and then bring the ball infield to Lampard (usually from the left) or continuing their attack through wide positions. In theory, Gareth Barry should be the man to provide the defence-to-midfield link for England, but for one reason or another, it’s a role he shies away from. Instead, the full backs are charged with bringing the ball forward, or more commonly, a route one approach is taken. Ashley Cole and Glen Johnson are far and away the two best attacking full-backs in the country, and one should feel confident in their ability to bring the ball up the pitch. But they rarely passed the half way line today, and this summed up England’s inability to convert the dispossession of Germany into an attacking opportunity of their own.

Gerrard’s habit of cutting infield from his left position is understandable given his role at Liverpool rarely takes him to that side of the pitch. There is even an argument for Frank Lampard being a better option on the left, as seen by his tendencies to drift to that side at Chelsea (whether this is natural habit, or instructions from Carlo Ancelotti is another thing). This is evident by taking a look at Lampard’s interaction with the ball during Chelsea’s games with Aston Villa and Portsmouth towards the end of the season, two of his best performances of in a blue shirt in what was statistically his best season with the Blues.



Instead, this role is offered to Steven Gerrard and it just doesn’t work. For me, the buck either stops with Capello, or Gerrard himself. If Capello is instructing the Liverpool skipper to drift infield, then surely he sees that a) it hampers Ashley Cole’s ability to get forward, an important aspect of the full back’s play at Chelsea, and b) it leaves the team lob sided and the opposition find it easier to snuff out attacks. If it’s Gerrard’s instinct himself, then he should take a look at James Milner. Although initally a winger in his early days at Leeds and Newcastle, Milner has rose to prominence and an England call-up thanks to his midfield performances for Aston Villa last season. Despite being charged with this role at Villa, Milner shows discipline on duty with England and holds his wide position, much unlike Gerrard. Their average position on the pitch against Germany today shows the difference in approach to what should be two similar roles between Gerrard and Milner.



The lack of an aforementioned “destructive” midfield player places a huge burden on Gerrard and Lampard. At their respective club teams, they are afford the luxury of having two of the best defensive midfielders in the game in Javier Mascherano and Michael Essien (or understudy John Obi Mikel) marshalling behind, allowing them to shirk their defensive responsibilities to some degree when presented with an opportunity to attack. On England duty, if they surrender the ball, they don’t have that player behind them because Gareth Barry also takes advantage of any opportunity t0 get forward (he himself has the impressive Nigel De Jong as cover at Man City). Indeed, this has never been more evident than it was today for Germany’s third, and potentially decisive goal, when Barry – who ideally should be hanging back from set pieces – surrendered possession on the edge of the German penalty area. Just 13 seconds later, Thomas Mullar had the ball in the back of David James’ net. Muller often found himself in more central positions than he is used to today, and this is solely down to the defensive frailties of Lampard, Gerrard and Barry.

thebaz

what was wrong with rooney was he fit ? or the hump with Capello ? I have watched Rooney since he was 16 , and he embodies everything i love about Football - going into this tournament Capello was the new messiah , but he looked like he was going mad , maybe the pressure of the job - bringing heskey on today - the media have a lot to answer for - the Murdock empire make so much out of the game, from English fans , and then seam determined to hijack the spirit before it gets started , Svengate, Terrygate etc - let the team enjoy themselves , have fun - but in general from playing beach football , us english and Irish will never match the latins for skill - but still for winter enjoyment its hard to beat the thunder of British football

oh - and the midfield was atrocious , Lampard never produces in big matches , Scholes is probably their best option still

flahavaj

Have you a link to rest of that Archi? Great read.

karma_

thebaz wrote: »

what was wrong with rooney was he fit ? or the hump with Capello ? I have watched Rooney since he was 16 , and he embodies everything i love about Football - going into this tournament Capello was the new messiah , but he looked like he was going mad , maybe the pressure of the job - bringing heskey on today - the media have a lot to answer for - the Murdock empire make so much out of the game, from English fans , and then seam determined to hijack the spirit before it gets started , Svengate, Terrygate etc - let the team enjoy themselves , have fun - but in general from playing beach football , us english and Irish will never match the latins for skill - but still for winter enjoyment its hard to beat the thunder of British football

oh - and the midfield was atrocious , Lampard never produces in big matches , Scholes is probably their best option still

There is something seriously wrong with the coaching and football mentality of the nations in the British isles and it evolves into a shít brand of football at senior level. Sure you have clubs like Arsenal who buck the norm but something needs to change.

If Slovakia with a pop. of 5m can play an attractive short passing game why can't the home nations?

Peyton Manning

flahavaj wrote: »

Have you a link to rest of that Archi? Great read.

Cheers. When I say an excerpt, it's actually half of the article The other half is here http://backpagefootball.com/info/international/down-and-out-in-bloemfontein-the-england-analysis/

flahavaj

Archimedes wrote: »

Cheers. When I say an excerpt, it's actually half of the article The other half is here http://backpagefootball.com/info/international/down-and-out-in-bloemfontein-the-england-analysis/

Did you leave the second half out because of the furore your omission of Gerrard would cause?:pac:

Peyton Manning

flahavaj wrote: »

Did you leave the second half out because of the furore your omission of Gerrard would cause?:pac:

Sssshhhh! He's lying, dont listen to him!

thebaz

karma_ wrote: »

There is something seriously wrong with the coaching and football mentality of the nations in the British isles and it evolves into a shít brand of football at senior level. Sure you have clubs like Arsenal who buck the norm but something needs to change.

If Slovakia with a pop. of 5m can play an attractive short passing game why can't the home nations?

There is still great respect from certain quarters for teams like Stoke or Sam Alardyce teams who achieve great success in England , playing a brand that you get from a local aggressive unfit over 35 team - if you question the tactics of Stoke or Blackburn , people say you have win the battle first - hence the soft centre at Arsenal

leninbenjamin

karma_ wrote: »

Sure you have clubs like Arsenal who buck the norm but something needs to change.

The funny thing is, Arsenal are ridiculed time and time again for being too 'tippy tappy.'

x in the city

England are muck, and need a complete overhaul from grassroots up.

overpaid players, overpaid managers, and the whole FA board should be booted into orbit.

They need fresh ideas, fresh players and not all this tabloid, celebrity **** which is rife through the team. Paying a manager 5 million or more a year is also ridiculous, England paid Sven millions AFTER he was sacked for years, so cue 2010, Capello will walk or be sacked in the week and hello hello, the FA will continue to pay his 5 million or whatever salary he is on for the next few years..

lol, de ja vu anyone...


also, becks in the bench, lol. I would have told him f*** right off If I was the gaffer.!

The whole Premiership needs to model itself on the bundesliga, its a proper run league. (cheap tickets and you can drink booze at games for one..:)), not 50 pounds to watch cashley cole and john terrreryyy strutting their stuff.

T-b0n3

Archimedes wrote: »

Cheers. When I say an excerpt, it's actually half of the article The other half is here http://backpagefootball.com/info/international/down-and-out-in-bloemfontein-the-england-analysis/

Just read it there, great read. Good points. Keep it up.

MisterAnarchy

thebaz wrote: »

us english and Irish will never match the latins for skill - but still for winter enjoyment its hard to beat the thunder of British football

You can have your "thunder" but I will be watching Barca and Real slug in out this Winter playing in a proper league where good football is played.
Then again I could be missing the "Thunder" of Stoke-Blackburn,Blackpool-Bolton,Birmingham-Wolves :rolleyes:

conno16

capello should chuck it in tomorrow
best for all concerned, except obviously his bank balance
anyways, he'll be coaching a top team before the season kick off

there goes his shot at the united job
maybe liverpool??

DB10

Gerrard is in decline, anyone who watched him regularly last season would know that.

But typically he was hyped as one of the many "world class" players England have at their disposal. Maybe he was a few years ago, right now, that is just crazy talk.

Yet we continue to hear "experts" claim " Gerrard etc "do it week in, week out in the PL, why not for England?"

Well lads, if you done your ****ing jobs, you would realise he hasn't done it week in week out last season and expecting him to some how carry England to the WC when he was shocking for Liverpool is shocking stupid.

Kristopherus

DB10 wrote: »

Gerrard is in decline, anyone who watched him regularly last season would know that.

But typically he was hyped as one of the many "world class" players England have at their disposal. Maybe he was a few years ago, right now, that is just crazy talk.

Yet we continue to hear "experts" claim " Gerrard etc "do it week in, week out in the PL, why not for England?"

Well lads, if you done your ****ing jobs, you would realise he hasn't done it week in week out last season and expecting him to some how carry England to the WC when he was shocking for Liverpool is shocking stupid.

Of course he had his share of off-field troubles last year, and that surely didnt help his performances on the field. I'd still have him on my team, though.

leninbenjamin

DB10 wrote: »

Well lads, if you done your ****ing jobs, you would realise he hasn't done it week in week out last season and expecting him to some how carry England to the WC when he was shocking for Liverpool is shocking stupid.

Actually, even at their best the likes of Gerrard and Lampard never do it week in week out. Given their roles at the clubs they are given almost entirely free roles. The result is that they can drift in and out of games and attempt the risky balls, sometimes doing the sublime, but more often than not not contributing much and giving the ball away a lot. Makes for a great highlight reel, but not so great if you rely on them as your 'engine'. The more consistent but less spectacular players mop up after them and give them their chances on a plate.

Look at the Guardian Chalkboards for example. Likes of Gerrard and Lampard will maintain a pass completion ratio of around 75%. But at this level you need someone behind them, like Alonso, Essien, Ballack, Scholes, Carrick who can maintain much higher ration (95% ideally, but even Carrick who had a poor season was able to maintain it around 90% from the few I sampled). Lampard and Gerrard's game is simply too high risk to have them as your base in midfield.

DB10

I wouldn't. Gerrard didn't perform in any of the 4 games.

He is not a LM player so why is he there at all? Basically due to his reputation and name.

By all means he should have been tried behind Rooney but not on the left hand side and to continue to do so after 3 shocking group performances, is just poor management.

argosy2006

just watching replay on rte, james should have saved 3 of them, england had clear goal disallowed , scored one ,hit bar twice, gerrard clean in on goal, should have struck it harder and past keeper,, this could have been very different,,
very rare for team to score all their good chances, like germany did,

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/statistics/matches/round=249717/match=300061501/index.html


if you looked at those stats and didnt know score u would pick england as winners based on stats

MUSEIST

TBH the managers formation is baffling. 433 makes sense. Gets the best out of lamps and gerrard and allows the good combination of steveg and rooney. It would give more protection to the back four, help them keep the ball for longer and get the good attacking fullbacks they have into the game.

But no, he plays a medievil 442 which exposes the back lines lack of pace and has the whole team out of position. The FA are basically pissing 6 mill done the toilet each year with capello.

Dues Bellator

MUSEIST wrote: »

TBH the managers formation is baffling. 433 makes sense. Gets the best out of lamps and gerrard and allows the good combination of steveg and rooney. It would give more protection to the back four, help them keep the ball for longer and get the good attacking fullbacks they have into the game.

But no, he plays a medievil 442 which exposes the back lines lack of pace and has the whole team out of position. The FA are basically pissing 6 mill done the toilet each year with capello.

totally agree on the 442. plus capello,s on a little busmans holiday, he dosnt care for english football , or the people for that matter.3 years in a job and cant string a sentence in an interview. i dont care for the english national team ,i will ask one thing..harry redknap and hodgeson at least they would let rooney eat his coco pops and lampard read his Daily Times.
at least the world has seen english national level football for what it is.AVERAGE .

x in the city

why are we getting so riled up about the english..

meh

Peyton Manning

x in the city wrote: »

why are we getting so riled up about the english..

meh

Because the majority of us support English clubs and find it fascinating how the players we see perform to a high standard most weeks are unable to transfer that form over to international level.

Next question plz.

x in the city

I support Everton (as 99% of the lads here know. :rolleyes:), I couldn't give a flying fluck about the national team tbh/

Id be amazed if any forums in the uk got riled up about the Irish team, on such a grand scale as boards.

The English team is basically a big farce and have too much of a celebrity couture, until they lose that they will win $hit.

Peyton Manning

x in the city wrote: »

I support Everton (as 99% of the lads here know. :rolleyes:), I couldn't give a flying fluck about the national team tbh/

Id be amazed if any forums in the uk got riled up about the Irish team, on such a grand scale as boards.

The English team is basically a big farce and have too much of a celebrity couture, until they lose that they will win $hit.

You seem to have missed my point completely.

a) I know you support Everton. If I was asked to name an Everton supporter on Boards, you're the first name that comes to mind.

b) We support English teams. All 23 of their squad play in England, so we know more about their team than any other country at the World Cup. Of course we're going to show a higher level of interest in them.

monkey9

x in the city wrote: »

I support Everton (as 99% of the lads here know. :rolleyes:), I couldn't give a flying fluck about the national team tbh/

Id be amazed if any forums in the uk got riled up about the Irish team, on such a grand scale as boards.

The English team is basically a big farce and have too much of a celebrity couture, until they lose that they will win $hit.

So would i. What's your point??

x in the city

Archimedes wrote: »

You seem to have missed my point completely.

a) I know you support Everton. If I was asked to name an Everton supporter on Boards, you're the first name that comes to mind.

b) We support English teams. All 23 of their squad play in England, so we know more about their team than any other country at the World Cup. Of course we're going to show a higher level of interest in them.

I know that, I have loads of guys in England texting me, they basically say the team is ****.

I don't see why we get so drilled up about it tho..!

but it is quite spectacular, the demise of the English team under capello, they flew thru the qualifying campaign. Picking Heksey and Carragher is a joke, they are way past it. Capello totally flunked up a formation. (I don't think he had any), He had no midfield to speak of.

Rooney was basically f***ed. Gerrard we all know doesn't play at all for England as he has done for Pool, he is also more or less finished, he will never be as good as he was.

They need to start from grass roots big time, a cull. !
having beckham on the bench was a wtf moment.

so many things wrong with them, I don't think anyone can be surprised, the only thing I cant believe is how the bookies had Germany almost 3/1 to beat them.

Thanx 4 The Fish

argosy2006 wrote: »

just watching replay on rte, james should have saved 3 of them, england had clear goal disallowed , scored one ,hit bar twice, gerrard clean in on goal, should have struck it harder and past keeper,, this could have been very different,,
very rare for team to score all their good chances, like germany did,

http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/statistics/matches/round=249717/match=300061501/index.html


if you looked at those stats and didnt know score u would pick england as winners based on stats

So what you are saying is that England's strikers are not good enough or the shots are just not good enough.

x in the city

monkey9 wrote: »

So would i. What's your point??

my point is you should relax and stick on a dvd

OPENROAD

x in the city wrote: »

I couldn't give a flying fluck about the national team tbh/
t.

I'm with you on that one.

thebaz

Capello should go - i would expect Harry R to take charge before August - start of well - then the NOTW will do a number on him - in fairness Harry would be a big improvement on the Capello regime.
For all the knocking of the English game, we did best under jack Charlton - i dont believe Irish or English players have the natural ball control (me included ) of the latins, but you can still be efficient with commitment - look at the U.S.A

thekid9

You cant put Rooney and Gerrard into the same sentence in this world cup.. Gerrard was by far englands best player. Rooney was abysmal. He was the one player who was talked about before every match yet he barely took a shot in anger in any game. His touch was off, he didnt look like he had the hunger in him that he has when he plays under fergie.

SuperInfinity

Rooney made decent touches at times. Nothing like you'd expect from a world class player, but he didn't just waste everything that came to him.

I think their main problem today was their defence. Their attack was never going to work like a world-class team's should, it never has for England and never will. But for what it needed to be it worked, they got their goal. Their play should have been a little like Ireland, hoof it around trying to get a goal but make sure to defend well and NEVER let them get behind your defence on a counter attack.

Their defence was an embarrassment to football at times, you'd expect better from the likes of Armenia. They looked like deers stuck in headlights at times, nobody knew what to do, nobody was closing down. However I do think the German attack was really good, and the Germans should be a match for any team in the competition.

jank

leninbenjamin wrote: »

The funny thing is, Arsenal are ridiculed time and time again for being too 'tippy tappy.'

+ 1 Million.

Also remember they dont like it up 'em but if england want to continue to play like Bolton or Hull then continue away. You have every media pundit in the UK telling us the PL is the "best" in the world for the pace, hard tackles and energy. Yet are then shocked when their own players cant even pass a ball to each other when it comes to the top level of the international game.

If the FA were serious they would take a good look at what Arsenal are doing in their training ground. The only English club to play a true possession game.

Handsome Bob

Oliver Holt really sticks the boot into Capello:

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/blogs/2010-world-cup-blog/World-Cup-England-v-Germany-comment-Why-arrogant-Fabio-Capello-isn-t-worth-a-penny-of-his-6m-a-year-contract-by-Oliver-Holt-article499477.html

Father Damo

Quite simply, Capello is a brutal man manager. The handling of the Terry situation. Forcing Beckham out of Real, then begging him to come back when his form improved. Clearly at some point between the end of qualifying and the tournament he lost the respect of his players.

The Muppet

SuperInfinity wrote: »

Rooney made decent touches at times. Nothing like you'd expect from a world class player, but he didn't just waste everything that came to him.

I think their main problem today was their defence. Their attack was never going to work like a world-class team's should, it never has for England and never will. But for what it needed to be it worked, they got their goal. Their play should have been a little like Ireland, hoof it around trying to get a goal but make sure to defend well and NEVER let them get behind your defence on a counter attack.

Their defence was an embarrassment to football at times, you'd expect better from the likes of Armenia. They looked like deers stuck in headlights at times, nobody knew what to do, nobody was closing down. However I do think the German attack was really good, and the Germans should be a match for any team in the competition.

That's it exactly, Terry had an off day Upson was poor and johnson is just not good enough defensively to play at this level.

Mr. Presentable

Archimedes wrote: »

Because the majority of us support English clubs and find it fascinating how the players we see perform to a high standard most weeks are unable to transfer that form over to international level.

Next question plz.

Is the reason they look good week in/out the players of other nations that make up the greater part of their teams?