England: The Post Mortem

greendom

The Muppet wrote: »

That's it exactly, Terry had an off day Upson was poor and johnson is just not good enough defensively to play at this level.

I thought Johnson was comfortably the worst player on the pitch yesteday. . He looked completely lacking in confidence and appeared to be scared of the ball.

Mental Mickey

baz2009 wrote: »

Rooney and Gerrard on their day are in the top 5 in the world in their positions.

I don't rate Johnson at all.

Their day will never come...........well Gerrard's won't.

ctrl-alt-delete

The FA have well and truly shot themselves in the foot by offering Capello that new contract before a ball was kicked at the World Cup. Depending on who you believe it could end up costing them £10-12Million to sack him. More than likely if they do decide to part ways it will be a mutual thing - it always happens these days, but the stubborness Capello has shown at times you would not be surprised if he sat tight.

Capello was brought in to improve things, but realistically most of the English managers sat at home watching could not have done a worse job. The highlight of this campaign for England was beating Slovenia 1-0. The reaction of the players and staff at the end of that game was embarrassing and they should all hang their heads in shame.

International management is so much different than club management and i don't think Fabio is up to it. He tried to fit the England players into a system he felt was tried and tested, when in reality as an International manager you get a group of players that are tried and tested - and you need to build a system that suits them.

Capello might yet survive, i doubt it myself, but if not who do you get to replace him? The list will be endless, for me though there are Englishmen there who can do the same, if not a better job.

Mitch Connor

thinking about it today, and I really don't see what england can really do to change things up.

I can't think of any young full backs, centre backs, central midfielders or strikers that should make the next England squads for the Euro qualifiers.

Adam Johnson is the only young english player that I feel would be ready (and should have been in the WC squad.

Jack Wilshire is very very promising, but I don't think he is ready for this round of qualifying.

Beyond that, who is there?

Shanotheslayer

Mitch Connor wrote: »

thinking about it today, and I really don't see what england can really do to change things up.

I can't think of any young full backs, centre backs, central midfielders or strikers that should make the next England squads for the Euro qualifiers.

Adam Johnson is the only young english player that I feel would be ready (and should have been in the WC squad.

Jack Wilshire is very very promising, but I don't think he is ready for this round of qualifying.

Beyond that, who is there?

Agbonglahor?

everdead.ie

In a twist maybe Harry is going to be available for the job tribalsport *cough* I know stated that the Roma manager has been approached by tottenham and Marseille

Mitch Connor

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

Agbonglahor?

Good shout - not sure how good he can be though. Should probably be given a chance though.

ctrl-alt-delete

Mitch Connor wrote: »

thinking about it today, and I really don't see what england can really do to change things up.

I can't think of any young full backs, centre backs, central midfielders or strikers that should make the next England squads for the Euro qualifiers.

Adam Johnson is the only young english player that I feel would be ready (and should have been in the WC squad.

Jack Wilshire is very very promising, but I don't think he is ready for this round of qualifying.

Beyond that, who is there?

I think Cattermole should be considered.

Mitch Connor

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

I think Cattermole should be considered.

I think he is fairly average and would need to curb his game a lot - he would pick up far more yellows/reds in international football.

ctrl-alt-delete

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I think he is fairly average and would need to curb his game a lot - he would pick up far more yellows/reds in international football.

I was going to mention the discipline thing, but if they were going to use the system they were using yesterday, then he was the holding man. He is a great ball winner, but yeah he gets away with a lot in the PL that you'd be punished for on an International level.He is still young though - and the whole point is to bring them in and teach them the ways.

Barry was shown up yesterday, he couldnt hold a holding midfielders hand.

SlickRic

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

Barry was shown up yesterday, he couldnt hold a holding midfielders hand.

he was absolutely atrocious, and i don't know whether it's that Capello really sees nobody else in England suitable, or whether he has some unhealthy manlove for him, but Barry was culpable for 2 of the goals yesterday.

once for losing possession through an horrific touch for the 3rd goal.

and second for either being as slow as Le Tissier, or not being a*sed for the 4th goal.

Terry and Upson have to take some responsibilty, obviously, but the lack of protection in front of them was frightening. That lack of a 'breaker-upper' has been a huge part of their downfall in this World Cup.

FUNKY LOVER

:eek:anyone see SSN just now.according to them its fabregas fault for coming over to england,and not letting english youngsters get a chance,my god.

mike65

Did they actually say that? :rolleyes:

greendom

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

:eek:anyone see SSN just now.according to them its fabregas fault for coming over to england,and not letting english youngsters get a chance,my god.

What idiot said that - such a trite, shallow and knee-jerk reaction ?

Handsome Bob

mike65 wrote: »

Did they actually say that? :rolleyes:

Imagine he did.

Host: So who is to blame?

Pundit: Cesc Fabregas.

Host:............okay then.

mike65

DB10 wrote: »

I wouldn't. Gerrard didn't perform in any of the 4 games.

He is not a LM player so why is he there at all? Basically due to his reputation and name.

By all means he should have been tried behind Rooney but not on the left hand side and to continue to do so after 3 shocking group performances, is just poor management.

He is there to accomadate Frank Lampard in the middle. No other reason (well apart from Capps obsession with 4-4-2)

saltie

Mitch Connor wrote: »

thinking about it today, and I really don't see what england can really do to change things up.

I can't think of any young full backs, centre backs, central midfielders or strikers that should make the next England squads for the Euro qualifiers.

Adam Johnson is the only young english player that I feel would be ready (and should have been in the WC squad.

Jack Wilshire is very very promising, but I don't think he is ready for this round of qualifying.

Beyond that, who is there?

Baines?

FUNKY LOVER

yes they used him as an example,they showed a clip of him as some idiot pundit dont kniw his name said,cesc came over at 16 and joined the academy and got his chance ahead of english youngsters and as long as this continues english fotball will be poor.

lordgoat

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

yes they used him as an example,they showed a clip of him as some idiot pundit dont kniw his name said,cesc came over at 16 and joined the academy and got his chance ahead of english youngsters and as long as this continues english fotball will be poor.

That's hilarious, completely ignoring the fact that the youth set up in england is so mediocre at the moment that they have very few teenagers as good as fabregascoming through.

mike65

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

yes they used him as an example,they showed a clip of him as some idiot pundit dont kniw his name said,cesc came over at 16 and joined the academy and got his chance ahead of english youngsters and as long as this continues english fotball will be poor.

Well there is clearly some truth in that, if clubs always pick a juicy foreign talent over home grown then the problems will continue. A multi faceted plan of attack is required, the new UEFA rules will help but clearly the whole issue of coaching children needs addressing for the long term.

Kiwi_knock

If England are actually serious about winning the WC four years from now they have to build a squad of players. They should use the qualification for the Euros to experiment with the side, they have an easy group to qualify from so they should use the opportunity to give experience to some of the younger players. Have a mixture of youth and experience playing in each game. They need a strong squad of 23 players who can all be viable alternatives for a starting place. Those challenging for a place in the squad of 23 should be selected months in advance, instead of testing a player who has never been capped a few weeks before selection. If England do this they realistically should have 2 players for every position unlike now when they barely had 1 man for each position. England have some promising young players who should be getting game time in competitive fixtures instead of meaningless friendlies. The qualifiers are a perfect opportunity to test players who perform at premier level but unsure of if they would adapt to the national team. Players like Bent should be playing these games instead of friendlies. Testing loads of players in the build up to the Euros will allow the manager know who is up to International standard and who he can use in his WC qualifying campaign.

SlickRic

saltie wrote: »

Baines?

he's very ordinary though, and he's not going to oust Ashley Cole.

they need to change it up by playing people in their club positions as much as possible.

meaning Gerrard supporting Rooney as the link between him and the midfield; like he does for Torres.

start nurturing Huddlestone as the 'Alonso' of the team. leave Lampard there if really needed, but i'd like to see someone else giving it a go. the reality is, Lampard just doesn't perform for England, and never really has. it's time to give someone else a go.

i'd be tempted to say the same for Gerrard, but i really want to see if him and Rooney through the centre could do something significant for England.

get Barry out of there, please. surely there is an Englishman who can tackle in the middle of the park and keep things ticking over? i'm going to put hargreaves in for now, but if someone has a better suggestion, feel free to suggest them.

also Johnson, even being a Liverpool fan i can't defend him. defensively he was wide of the mark this tournament. if Wes Brown gets fit, he's got to be preferred.

Adam Johnson, though inexperienced, would be a breath of fresh air.

i'd like to see this for the Euros...

---

Hart

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Johnson/Brown--Terry

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Dawson----Cole

---

Hargreaves

---

---

Huddlestone/Lamps

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Milner

---

Gerrard

---

Johnson

---

Rooney

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Dont be at yourself

Cattermole has to be worth a shout. He's not the player Barry is, but he'd be much more suited to the ball-winning role in a 5-man midfield. It's worth taking a look at Shawcross for defence as well. He's tall, physical but also has a bit of pace.

greendom

mike65 wrote: »

Well there is clearly some truth in that, if clubs always pick a juicy foreign talent over home grown then the problems will continue. A multi faceted plan of attack is required, the new UEFA rules will help but clearly the whole issue of coaching children needs addressing for the long term.

There's only any truth in the statement if it means clubs are only picking foreign players to fill their youth teams. Surely it's better for the development of the best English youngsters that they are playing with and against highly talented foreigners rather than the inferior English ones who would have to be involved if foreign talent was excluded

whatawaster

The manager, whether it’s Capello or someone else, has to draw a line under most of that squad.
Forget about the European Championships. Qualify if they can, but start building for the world cup in 2014.

James, Carragher, Gerrard, Terry, King, Barry, Hargreaves, Lampard, Ferdinand, Heskey, Beckham should all not be picked for England again.

It’s hard to say what kind of players are going to come through in the next few years for England. How good will players like Wilshere become? Fergie seems to have a lot of faith in Chris Smalling. Jonjo Shelvey could make a quick breakthrough at Liverpool if Mascherano and Gerrard are sold and not adequately replaced.

Like Germany did, I think England need to put their faith in the U-21 squad which was pretty successful over the last couple of years.

Joe Hart - (23)
Chris Kirkland - (29)
Ben Foster - (27)

Glen Johnson – (25)
Leighton Baines – (25)
Ashley Cole – (29)
Michael Dawson (26)
Ryan Shawcross – (22)
Gary Cahill – (24)
Micah Richards – (22)
Nedum Onuoha – (23)
Chris Smalling – (20)

Tom Huddlestone – (23)
Adam Johnson – (22)
Jack Wilshere – (18)
Lee Cattermole – (22)
Jack Rodwell – (19)
James Milner – (24)
Aaron Lennon – (23)
Ashley Young – (24)

Theo Walcott – (21)
Wayne Rooney – (24)
Gabriel Agbonlahor – (23)
Jermaine Defoe – (27)

Could be a hypothetical squad in a couple of years. Perhaps lacking in star names, but I don’t honestly think that if they are well managed that they would do worse than the current lot. And there’s certainly potential there to do a lot better.

whatawaster

SlickRic wrote: »

i'd like to see this for the Euros...

---

Hart

---

Johnson/Brown--Terry

---

Dawson----Cole

---

Hargreaves

---

---

Huddlestone/Lamps

---

Milner

---

Gerrard

---

Johnson

---

Rooney

---

Gerrard, Terry, and probably Lampard are finished for England imo.

Mental Mickey

whatawaster wrote: »

The manager, whether it’s Capello or someone else, has to draw a line under most of that squad.
Forget about the European Championships. Qualify if they can, but start building for the world cup in 2014.

James, Carragher, Gerrard, Terry, King, Barry, Hargreaves, Lampard, Ferdinand, Heskey, Beckham should all not be picked for England again.

It’s hard to say what kind of players are going to come through in the next few years for England. How good will players like Wilshere become? Fergie seems to have a lot of faith in Chris Smalling. Jonjo Shelvey could make a quick breakthrough at Liverpool if Mascherano and Gerrard are sold and not adequately replaced.

Like Germany did, I think England need to put their faith in the U-21 squad which was pretty successful over the last couple of years.

Joe Hart - (23)
Chris Kirkland - (29)
Ben Foster - (27)

Glen Johnson – (25)
Leighton Baines – (25)
Ashley Cole – (29)
Michael Dawson (26)
Ryan Shawcross – (22)
Gary Cahill – (24)
Micah Richards – (22)
Nedum Onuoha – (23)
Chris Smalling – (20)

Tom Huddlestone – (23)
Adam Johnson – (22)
Jack Wilshere – (18)
Lee Cattermole – (22)
Jack Rodwell – (19)
James Milner – (24)
Aaron Lennon – (23)
Ashley Young – (24)

Theo Walcott – (21)
Wayne Rooney – (24)
Gabriel Agbonlahor – (23)
Jermaine Defoe – (27)

Could be a hypothetical squad in a couple of years. Perhaps lacking in star names, but I don’t honestly think that if they are well managed that they would do worse than the current lot. And there’s certainly potential there to do a lot better.

They're all too old anyway. The whole problem with the England team is the stupid ****ing hype created by the media. Most of their players just aren't good enough internationally. They're good players individually, but as a team, they just don't work.

Mitch Connor

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

yes they used him as an example,they showed a clip of him as some idiot pundit dont kniw his name said,cesc came over at 16 and joined the academy and got his chance ahead of english youngsters and as long as this continues english fotball will be poor.

The issue really is the academy and training style in England.

1. It is easier for Arsenal to sign Fabregas from Barcelona than a kid from Manchester.
2. In English football, the way kids are taught is generally wrong (but slowly changing)

In England, they play on muddy pitches in bad weather - meaning the ball sticks in the ground more than it should, so playing the ball on the ground is harder than it should be. As a result, players learn to play higher and harder passes from a young age.

Physicality is too highly valued due to the way games are played. 11 vs 11 and the bigger boys simply outmuscle their opponents.

'Safety first' approach to defending, rather than passing out of trouble like european sides are taught too.

Fitness, Strength, Tactics and Strategic approach from a young age. I remember when I was young (obviously in the irish system but i would say it is very comparable) the majority of a training session was sprints, runs etc with a game of football at the end. that isn't good enough.

I know Man United, and some other english sides, have drastically changed the way they teach kids. United have pulled their younger sides (younger than U16 I think, could be wrong) out of the 11 vs 11 academy leagues. They play, mostly, 7 vs 7 games on smaller pitches. Less players mean more responsibility is placed on each player individually and that there has to be a fluidity to the style of play. Touch and passing is all important due to the small space. Also, in conjunction with this, fitness and tactics are placed at a lower priority. United (and some other english clubs) have accepted the fact that technique and skills are more easily adopted by the younger kids than when they are 17 or 18; so United concentrate on that at a younger age and leave the fitness/tactics side of the game till later.

However, despite they change being implemented, it will take time to have an effect (I believe the first batch of kids taught this way at United would only be 17 or so now. So players like Ravel Morrison are probably first to show if this is working. Also, the simple fack is (as mentioned previously) that United can only sign english players living within 90mins of the ground - so their pool of players is small(ish) while they can sign as many italian/french etc kids as they want. You can also look at the Barcelona model and see just how much it differs at a basic level, not even looking at the coaching itself - Barcelona spend about 5 or 6 times more per season on youth dev than Man United do - also all their kids are housed by barcelona so their is little outside influence that is not monitored by the club. The lives of the kids revolve around the club and football. At United, some kids live in digs, some live with families. The brightest young prospect at United is, arguably, Ravel Morrison, but there are alreayd concerns about his focus at 16 with a good few undesirable stories coming out about him - such as getting arrested in a car which was carrying guns not too long ago. Also rumours that he likes the 'gangster' lifestyle a bit too much and is not as focused on his football. Stories mind, so could be crap. (I would also point out his actual displays for United at the end of last season showed a lot of maturity and discipline which I was delighted to see.

Basically, I do think the entire way that English football is set up for teaching kids is wrong - it is changing, but slowing and will take some time to have an effect.

greendom

whatawaster wrote: »

Gerrard, Terry, and probably Lampard are finished for England imo.

Unless they retire they should not be discounted. They are still among the best talent England has. Until anything better comes along they should not be discarded.

LuckyLloyd

The Guardian wrote:

Prior to this tournament, there were only 2,769 English coaches holding Uefa's top qualifications. Spain has produced 23,995, Italy 29,420, Germany 34,970 and France 17,588

Probably the crux of the issue really when you get right down to it.

Mitch Connor

whatawaster wrote: »

- good post -

Can't believe I forgot about Rodwell. He could be a big one for England. I think he could develop into a great player for the centre of midfield. A box to box defensive player. I think we could see him as a fulcrum for England for years to come.

SlickRic

whatawaster wrote: »

Gerrard, Terry, and probably Lampard are finished for England imo.

if you're looking to 2014, yes you're right, they probably should be.

but realistically they're not going to be.

i'd love to see that squad in a couple of years that you put out. And i especially like the idea of Lee Cattermole. He could well be the type of player England need in there.

the likes of Wilshere, Walcott and Smalling, are not good enough yet, and i struggle to see them be very soon, so i don't think we can discount all the 'oldies' off-hand yet.

JimiTime

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The issue really is the academy and training style in England.

1. It is easier for Arsenal to sign Fabregas from Barcelona than a kid from Manchester.
2. In English football, the way kids are taught is generally wrong (but slowly changing)

In England, they play on muddy pitches in bad weather - meaning the ball sticks in the ground more than it should, so playing the ball on the ground is harder than it should be. As a result, players learn to play higher and harder passes from a young age.

Physicality is too highly valued due to the way games are played. 11 vs 11 and the bigger boys simply outmuscle their opponents.

'Safety first' approach to defending, rather than passing out of trouble like european sides are taught too.

Fitness, Strength, Tactics and Strategic approach from a young age. I remember when I was young (obviously in the irish system but i would say it is very comparable) the majority of a training session was sprints, runs etc with a game of football at the end. that isn't good enough.

I know Man United, and some other english sides, have drastically changed the way they teach kids. United have pulled their younger sides (younger than U16 I think, could be wrong) out of the 11 vs 11 academy leagues. They play, mostly, 7 vs 7 games on smaller pitches. Less players mean more responsibility is placed on each player individually and that there has to be a fluidity to the style of play. Touch and passing is all important due to the small space. Also, in conjunction with this, fitness and tactics are placed at a lower priority. United (and some other english clubs) have accepted the fact that technique and skills are more easily adopted by the younger kids than when they are 17 or 18; so United concentrate on that at a younger age and leave the fitness/tactics side of the game till later.

However, despite they change being implemented, it will take time to have an effect (I believe the first batch of kids taught this way at United would only be 17 or so now. So players like Ravel Morrison are probably first to show if this is working. Also, the simple fack is (as mentioned previously) that United can only sign english players living within 90mins of the ground - so their pool of players is small(ish) while they can sign as many italian/french etc kids as they want. You can also look at the Barcelona model and see just how much it differs at a basic level, not even looking at the coaching itself - Barcelona spend about 5 or 6 times more per season on youth dev than Man United do - also all their kids are housed by barcelona so their is little outside influence that is not monitored by the club. The lives of the kids revolve around the club and football. At United, some kids live in digs, some live with families. The brightest young prospect at United is, arguably, Ravel Morrison, but there are alreayd concerns about his focus at 16 with a good few undesirable stories coming out about him - such as getting arrested in a car which was carrying guns not too long ago. Also rumours that he likes the 'gangster' lifestyle a bit too much and is not as focused on his football. Stories mind, so could be crap. (I would also point out his actual displays for United at the end of last season showed a lot of maturity and discipline which I was delighted to see.

Basically, I do think the entire way that English football is set up for teaching kids is wrong - it is changing, but slowing and will take some time to have an effect.

QFT! No doubt there will be more scapegoating, 'It was the system', 'It was the manager', 'It was Heskey' blah blah. It is quite simply Football on these islands needs an overhaul from schoolboy level. Then patience is required.

No 11 a sides until around 15.

Leagues in the summer.

Much more investment in local facilities. I mean the upkeep of the pitches in this country is abysmal.

Coaching should be minimal, and concentrate on encouragement. Winning should be the LAST thing in their minds. Kids will have a natural urge to do well and win. Coaching should just be about getting them unafraid to be creative etc.

NOBODY should have a defined position from a young age. They should learn how to play football as a whole, not learn how to be a centre back etc.

A common phrase you hear on the pitches on a saturday morning is, 'GET RID OF IT'. Anyone shouting this at a kid should be bludgeoned with blunt objects. (Ok, maybe thats a bit far. Sharp objects instead:) )

Ossie Ardilles said that players don't join clubs until about 16 years old in South America, and I think this is a great idea.

If the above does not happen, these islands will continue to fail to produce world beating international sides.

everdead.ie

I always found that a major problem they make you do sprints and circuits instead of ball control it's even more fun for kids to do the ball control.

ArmaniJeanss

whatawaster wrote: »

James, Carragher, Gerrard, Terry, King, Barry, Hargreaves, Lampard, Ferdinand, Heskey, Beckham should all not be picked for England again.

The guys I've put in bold are quite likely to be playing in the Champions League. So when Rio does one of his 'imperious' displays in the centre of MUFCs defence against Shaktar Donetsk, or Frankie scores a brace against Anderlecht they'll be hailed as world class.
And it'll take a hugely ballsy England manager to not pick them for the national squad.

greendom

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

The guys I've put in bold are quite likely to be playing in the Champions League. So when Rio does one of his 'imperious' displays in the centre of MUFCs defence against Shaktar Donetsk, or Frankie scores a brace against Anderlecht they'll be hailed as world class.
And it'll take a hugely ballsy England manager to not pick them for the national squad.

Certainly until there are any better players to take their place.

leninbenjamin

everdead.ie wrote: »

I always found that a major problem they make you do sprints and circuits instead of ball control it's even more fun for kids to do the ball control.

Generally speaking, from my own experience one of the big reasons this happens so frequently is down to a lack of footballs. There's no reason why you can't do the fitness work with a ball at your feet... unless the club can't afford the balls.

Kiwi_knock

Well I do not agree that Lampard, Gerrard, Terry and Rio should be cast aside but I think they should be used sparingly. Look at the teams England have in their Euro qualifying group: Switzerland, Bulgaria, Wales and Montenegro. I can not see how playing in these games will benefit the older members of the team apart from giving them an inflated ego of themselves. These teams will hardly be a great challenge to England qualifying 1st in the group. It certainly allows England to experiment with players and see if they are truly up to international football.

eZe^

This is something England should aspire to putting in place over the next 15 years.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8688093.stm

England fans who associate World Cups with false dawns and heartbreak should spare a thought for the Spanish.
For a country that has given us two of the most celebrated club sides in the game's history and a roll call of stellar players, Spain's record in the global showpiece is nothing short of woeful.
Fourth place in 1950 is their best showing in 16 tournaments, with most of their other campaigns ending in humiliation, misfortune, or abject failure .
However, South Africa 2010 promises to be a very different story.
Victory at Euro 2008 ended a 44-year wait for an international trophy and was followed by a World Cup qualifying campaign in which Vicente del Bosque's side won all 10 of their games, culminating in a 5-2 away victory over their nearest rivals Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Spain have won 45, and lost only one, of their last 48 games. A team at the peak of their powers, they underlined their status as World Cup favourites with an effortless 6-0 demolition of Poland in their final warm-up game on Tuesday.
So what is it about this Spanish team that makes them rise to the big occasion where their predecessors foundered? What factors can explain the seismic change that has taken place?
Many football observers suggest Spain's transformation from a perennial underachiever to a ruthless winning machine is largely explained by the emergence of a golden generation of players, drawn heavily from Barcelona's ranks.
As former Barca and England striker Gary Lineker asks: "How many sides could survive the loss of Fernando Torres? Only one: Spain. Because they have got David Villa.
"They've also got Cesc Fabregas, who could play behind the strikers and doesn't get a regular game because they've got Xavi and Andres Iniesta in midfield."
Others point to the strength of the Spanish domestic league, or argue that playing in the Premier League has given some of the squad members vital experience of a more physical kind of football.
But often overlooked are the seeds sown by the Spanish Football Federation over the last 15 years, which are now bearing fruit.
Pedro Calvo, who coached Liverpool striker Torres at the Atletico Madrid academy, believes Spain's current prowess owes much to the federation's long-term commitment to a nationwide programme for the training of coaches.
According to European football's governing body Uefa, Spain had almost 15,000 Uefa A and Pro Licence coaches in 2008 - more than double the number of any other European nation. And that is despite it taking 750 study hours to acquire a Pro Licence in Spain, compared with just 245 in England.

We have moved on from the time when nobody knew what the characteristics of Spanish football were. Now, it's good to say that Spanish football is here
Fernando Hierro
"The federation has really focused on getting people qualified and to the level where they can go to other countries and coach," says Calvo. "It's not just in professional football, it runs right through the system. You have to have the same qualification to work in schools as you do to work in the top division.
"We are really starting to see the effects in the last few years."
Unlike the turbulent world of England's Football Association, Spain's FA is a model of stability, with president Angel Maria Villar about to begin his 23rd year at the helm.
Not only are there more qualified coaches in Spain than in England, they are all promoting exactly the same style of football - the highly technical, possession-based game that has taken Barcelona to the summit of European football, made Spain's youth teams the envy of the world and allowed the national side to end nearly half a century of failure in Vienna two years ago.
Indeed, the senior team's victory at Euro 2008 was not an isolated success. Since 1998, Spanish youth teams from under-16 to under-21 level have won 19 Uefa and Fifa championships. During this same period, England have won just one - the U17s European Championship last month when they beat Spain in the final.

UEFA A & PRO COACHES
SPAIN

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14,860
GERMANY

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6,570
FRANCE

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2,588
ITALY

---

1,810
NETH'NDS

---

1,137
ENGLAND

---

1,010
Former Spain and Real Madrid captain Fernando Hierro, who was made the federation's technical director in 2007, said recently: "We have moved on from the time when nobody knew what the characteristics of Spanish football were.
"Before, we all knew about Italian football, English football, German, Argentine, Brazilian. Now, it's good to say that Spanish football is here."
The importance of the structures put in place by the Spanish federation was recognised in Uefa's technical review of Euro 2008, drawn up by a panel including Fulham manager Roy Hodgson and former Liverpool boss Gerard Houllier.
"For years, Spanish youth football has carried the same, recognisable hallmark," the report read. "And, after years of watering the roots, the plant has matured and blossomed."
International success has been matched by domestic triumphs, with Spain's top-flight La Liga surpassing Italy's Serie A and the Premier League to be rated by many as the world's strongest.
Barcelona are the reigning World Club champions, and the league's strength in depth is illustrated by the fact that Spanish teams have won the Uefa Cup/Europa League four times in the last seven seasons. Not one English, Italian or German side has claimed the trophy during that period.

606: DEBATE
Spain's second XI would give England a run for their money, and I reckon only Ashley Cole would command a place in Spain's team
Tom Mansell
But while the nucleus of Spain's team play their football at home, six members of Del Bosque's 23-man squad, including Fabregas, Torres and Pepe Reina, either play, or have played, in England.
Rodolfo Borrell, who coached Fabregas and Lionel Messi at the Barcelona academy before joining Liverpool's youth set-up in 2009, says the experience gained amid the rough and tumble of the Premier League has added crucial ingredients to the mix.
"Aggression, tackling, passion and heart are all a lot bigger in England than in Spain," he says. "The football is more competitive than other leagues. This is making our national team stronger."
If the Premier League has improved the physical strength of Spain's players, it is a new-found mental toughness that has allowed them to exorcise the ghosts of World Cups past, says Spanish football expert Phil Ball.
He believes previous Spanish squads were hampered by frailties rooted in the national psyche and bore mental scars from the 1982 tournament, when as host nation they won just once in five games, suffered a 1-0 loss to Northern Ireland, and crashed out in the second round.
"Little by little, Spain have shed the inferiority complex they have always had towards northern European sides," explains Ball, the author of 'Morbo: the History of Spanish Football'.
"Under (former Spanish dictator) Franco, Spain were seen as the poor man of Europe, a bit backward politically until the 1970s.

Shock defeat for Spain by NI in 1982

"When Spain opened up after the transition into democracy, it got a World Cup in 1982 and made a fool of itself. It had that chance to show the world that it wasn't inferior and it mucked it up."
Ball, who has lived and worked in the northern city of San Sebastian for 20 years, says Spain's footballers may have been inspired by national success stories in other sports.
"You've got the likes of Fernando Alonso in Formula 1 and Rafael Nadal in tennis. People are seeing these Spaniards going out and doing the business. They've got that tough winning mentality."
According to Calvo, much of the credit for Spain's psychological transformation must go to Luis Aragones, the outspoken coach who led them to Euro 2008 glory before making way for former Real Madrid manager Del Bosque.
"Before, we were a good team, we would always cruise through the group stages, but when we got to the important stages, like the quarter-finals, we seemed to have a breakdown, we didn't believe that we could do it," he says. "Aragones made them believe. He knew how to prepare them for the really big games."
Among many who are tipping Spain to win the World Cup is Lineker.
The BBC frontman, who was England's top scorer at the 1986 and 1990 tournaments, says the Spanish now boast a depth of talent that makes them the envy of most other sides at this year's event.
"There is quality right the way through their squad - they have even got the best group of goalkeepers in world football and most of the best players in the world," he said. "They will take some beating in South Africa."
Yet for those who wonder how Spain finally changed from wobblers into winners, the message is clear: the glory has been a long time in the making.

Probably the best article I've read this year.

20goto10

flahavaj wrote: »

Brady on RTE just summed it up very well - its the culture of English football that sees their national team fail so badly every two Summers. Footballers in the Premiership simply aren't encouraged to hold onto the ball for prolonged periods of time, the game is played at breakneck speed. Its a style of football that translates very poorly to international football.

If that was the case then the same would apply to the foreign premier league players.

You have to ask why is it that the English nationals are so poor compared to the foreign players in the same league. It's a grass root problem. The big big teams coach kids as teenagers, why aren't they grooming great English players? Man united is the perfect example. Who was the last great English player to come out of united? Beckham, Scholes? Maybe count Giggs even though he is Welsh?

Lando Griffin

On Sky Sports Football Home page......

syklops

SarahBM wrote: »

just proves that the Premiership is NOT the best league in the world

I am not sure whether that is the case or not, but if you look at the premiership, there is a massive number of foreign players playing in it. I dont have access to figures, but there are some teams whose foreign players make up over half their squad.

So its not a case that it proves the Premiership is Cr@p, but it highlights the fact that English Footballers are becoming the minority in it.

Mr. Presentable

Apparently 62% of players are non-English

Het-Field

http://www.skysports.com/football/world-cup-2010/story/0,27032,12016_6235382,00.html

If England ever want to move forward, they must ditch the revisionism. England are a poor team, but if they were resolute enough, they could have mitigated for the the terrible decision given against them. It is the same since 1986, where revisionism has taken precedent over common sense. In 1986 England were not contenders, and had not been amongst the pre-tournament favourites. In 2010 they were not contenders, however, the more deluded elements of England's fanbase now have a good excuse to claim that 2010 was their year.

MisterAnarchy

Originally Posted by SarahBM View Post
just proves that the Premiership is NOT the best league in the world

The Premiership has some of the best players in the world but the standard of football in your average Premiership match is certainly lower than that of a La Liga match .
There is too much concern with not losing that the inferior teams dont even bother to try and attempt to play football ,they just resort to fear football and route 1 ,or 10 men behind the ball tactics.
Half the teams in the Premiership are awful to watch and you'd see better down your local park.
The amount of money required to run a football club nowadays means teams will do anything to stay in the EPL ,so for many the ends justifies the means even if if means playing sturgid football.

murpho999

Well we all know that Rooney did not have a good tournament. Pundits are stating he might be injured or may not be happy in the camp. Debate will go on for years as to why he has not peformed.
Anyhow I think it's the Samson effect. Did you notice that he used to have the chest of a gorrilla and yesterday he appears to have been waxed?

Sorry if these photos frighten anyone..

20goto10

murpho999 wrote: »

Did you notice that he used to have the chest of a gorrilla and yesterday he appears to have been waxed?

Sorry if these photos frighten anyone..

that explains why he's been playing like a girl! Hope he grows it back for start of EPL season!

murpho999

20goto10 wrote: »

that explains why he's been playing like a girl! Hope he grows it back for start of EPL season!

Well either way I still find it disturbing that a man waxes his chest hair, just wrong on any level!

Peyton Manning

Just read quite a shocking statistic for English football.

Germany have 34,790 coaches that hold Uefa's B, A and Pro badges. Italy have 29,420, and Spain have 23,995.


England have 2,769.

Absolutely shocking.

LuckyLloyd

Archimedes wrote: »

Just read quite a shocking statistic for English football.

Germany have 34,790 coaches that hold Uefa's B, A and Pro badges. Italy have 29,420, and Spain have 23,995.


England have 2,769.

Absolutely shocking.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66631503&postcount=231

LuckyLloyd wrote:

The Guardian wrote:

Prior to this tournament, there were only 2,769 English coaches holding Uefa's top qualifications. Spain has produced 23,995, Italy 29,420, Germany 34,970 and France 17,588

Probably the crux of the issue really when you get right down to it.