England: The Post Mortem

fryup

it was shown on TV today that the germans played the same amount of football matches throughout the season as the english

so that excuse is out the window

LuckyLloyd

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

And the sad thing is all this talk about England will be forgotten about come September when Joe public will be feasting himself on such highly billed Super Sunday dross as Stoke vs Birmingham or Blackpool vs Bolton.
Andy the "Brain" Gray will be lecturing us on what the Diamond formation is and Jamie will be hooping and hollering about Nanis "swazz" on the ball or how comfortable Rio Ferdinand is on the ball (Something expected of almost every foreign defender ),all the while Werewolf Keys will be spouting his propaganda about how the EPL is the best league in the world .
Im growing tired after all these years of it .

You don't HAVE to put up with it anymore! Ditch your Sky subscription and watch Seria A / The Bundesliga on ESPN. Then go to a couple of Irish league games on a nice summer evening. I watched less EPL football this season than ever before and didn't miss it all that much.

eagle eye

fryup wrote: »

it was shown on TV today that the germans played the same amount of football matches throughout the season as the english

so that excuse is out the window

Of course you didn't hear Clarence Seedorf talk about the winter break in Germany and he was about to say its quite possibly a problem in England but they didn't let him.

Seedorf has been superb as an analyst, I look forward to hearing his views on games.

x in the city

secman wrote: »

The problem with english footbal is SKY
The money they have pumped into the game has done nothing to really bring the game on. Germany & Holland do not have huge money put into the game, they do not attract the " Mercenaries" as a result of this, their young players get a chance.

Sky even have them selves brainwashed....... BEST LEAGUE IN THE WORLD.....WORLD CLASS PLAYERS.............. deluded people ! The premiership mainly has grossly overpaid average players FULL STOP.


Secman

true

they give f*** all to grass roots football, and instead brainwash us with shoite from george hook and take up every nook and cranny available in every shopping mall and car park to subscribe to their bs.

sky, lol

x in the city

OPENROAD wrote: »

Love the way people are going on about hype, players being bigged up etc...


Roll on August and club threads and match threads on this board

thats why i told everyone to relaxxxxxxxxxxx

everdead.ie

I always thought it was funny the two best England teams I remember where the 86 and 90 teams when the English teams where banned from European football. And had 11 foreign players in the league or something(foreign meaning non Irish Scottish welsh or English)

ctrl-alt-delete

I think it is too easy to blame grassroots football and how it is taught at a young age. Yes it needs to be improved if England want different types of players developed but it is not the be all and end all.

We have all seen those England players play better than they have, both at club level and for England. You can't just say they play good at club level because they are surrounded by good foreign players. They play better because they are involved in a system they suit, and because they play as a team, a cohesive unit that works together.

Think about it at club level for a moment, Lets call any team from the top 4 last season Brazil, and lets call any team outside the top 10 England - these teams were not and are not always steamrolled - if you have a system that works, and players that work in it, you can cause any team problems.

England lacked the basics, they did not lack the basics because they were not taught it at youth level. You can't teach things like hunger, desire and passion. I hope every time the players think of their one win at this tournement that they hang their heads in shame at how they reacted at the final whistle. England also didn't have a system that suited the players, or the players that suited the system that Capello so stubbornly stuck to.

Aside from that, i don't buy all this talk about the players being tired. You can't blame that either. If the players were tired Capello knew this before the tournment and should have left them at home - use it as an excuse to leave them at home, don't use it as an excuse for playing badly. Sky Sports news pointed out that their top 5 German players played more football than their top 5 England players last season.

I honestly don't think a break in january is going to achieve anything? I can't see how. They still have to play the same amount of games, they are just going to be playing more either side of that break. If the players were tired Capello might have cut down on physical training and tried out less strenuous training such as passing and defending, both of which were at Sunday league level from England at this tournment.

For me, if the FA could afford it, i'd push Capello out of the job and get someone else in. He can't do it for England - he has shown nothing at all to suggest to me that he can change his system or that he was willing to change the squad. One of the things he said, which gave a lot of fringe players hope, was that he was going to pick players on form rather than anything else. It is such a shame to think players like Adam Johnson and Darren Bent missed out to players like Heskey and Wright Phillips. The whole argument of Heskey being there for Rooney was blown out of the water, it was a coincidence that Rooney played well with Heskey when realistically Heskey played as good as he could which has never been good enough for England.

The last throw of the dice for England the other night was to bring Heskey on for Defoe. As if the 4-1 scoreline was not bad enough, what an absolutely embarrasing whimper for a country who were made think they had a chance to go out on!

T runner

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

For me, if the FA could afford it, i'd push Capello out of the job and get someone else in. He can't do it for England - he has shown nothing at all to suggest to me that he can change his system or that he was willing to change the squad.

Unfortunately, its the same excuses every time England are eliminated: usually the manager is blamed--it was Erikson last time and his system. The penalty taker who missed. Beckam gets sent off etc etc.

The fact is the style of football that the English team is capable of is not of a high enough standard to win anything.

Ogil's assist for the fourth goal. That is a young man in a huge game. Was there anyone on the English team who had the tactical know how to wait for his team mate to sprint into a scoring position and lay him a killer pass as Ogil did? I dont think so. How many on the German team could do this? Several Id say.

No team playing the English style has won since 1966. Hungarys 6:3 victory in Wembley was arguably when the old style died. Germany gave it up after 66.

Brazil have clearly evolved realising after 82. 86, 90 that defensive strenght was now necessary to win the world cup. Germany have evolved from their 80's style.

England need to change their style of football so that qualities of skill, technique and thinking football is cherished, not run into teh ground.

They should set a 12 year target for a world cup final appearance/win and to be challengers for a championship like Germany every year thereafter.

Spain have 26,000 qualified coaches, England have 1,000. If they can redress this with progressive youth coaches who arent result orientated they can change the style of football played and have a chance.

OPENROAD

T runner wrote: »

Unfortunately, its the same excuses every time England are eliminated: usually the manager is blamed--it was Erikson last time and his system. The penalty taker who missed. Beckam gets sent off etc etc.

The fact is the style of football that the English team is capable of is not of a high enough standard to win anything.

Ogil's assist for the fourth goal. That is a young man in a huge game. Was there anyone on the English team who had the tactical know how to wait for his team mate to sprint into a scoring position and lay him a killer pass as Ogil did? I dont think so. How many on the German team could do this? Several Id say.

No team playing the English style has won since 1966. Hungarys 6:3 victory in Wembley was arguably when the old style died. Germany gave it up after 66.

Brazil have clearly evolved realising after 82. 86, 90 that defensive strenght was now necessary to win the world cup. Germany have evolved from their 80's style.

England need to change their style of football so that qualities of skill, technique and thinking football is cherished, not run into teh ground.

They should set a 12 year target for a world cup final appearance/win and to be challengers for a championship like Germany every year thereafter.

Spain have 26,000 qualified coaches, England have 1,000. If they can redress this with progressive youth coaches who arent result orientated they can change the style of football played and have a chance.

Think you are missing the point to an extent, forget about the winning anything despite what you hear here in Ireland, England would have been happy with a semi final spot, even a quarter final spot if they had played well, they played woeful.

They need a manager who is going to be able to get the best out of the players he has, England do have some weak positions, the likes of Glen Johnson are quite average despite what Irish Liverpool fans on here say, but it should be possible for a manager to get the best out of players like him and also you need a manager who will pick a team rather than 11 players, that means not playing Gerrard on the left and possibly dropping him or Lampard or even Rooney if he is not producing the goods.

Pro. F

High fallutin news program Newsnight on BBC 2 doing some fancy dan analysis just now if anyone fancies a laugh

MisterAnarchy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You don't HAVE to put up with it anymore! Ditch your Sky subscription and watch Seria A / The Bundesliga on ESPN. Then go to a couple of Irish league games on a nice summer evening. I watched less EPL football this season than ever before and didn't miss it all that much.

I am finding myself watching less and less Premiership football over the last few years.
I have grown tired of the poor standard of football being played in general and most of the matches involving the Big 4 against each other have been disappointing affairs.
As a football purist I mostly watch La Liga now ,its far more exciting and attack minded,this season should be the best yet.
I havent as much time to be watching tv in general ,much prefer to be playing soccer myself than watching it.

tommyhaas

OPENROAD wrote: »

Think you are missing the point to an extent, forget about the winning anything despite what you hear here in Ireland, England would have been happy with a semi final spot, even a quarter final spot if they had played well, they played woeful.

They need a manager who is going to be able to get the best out of the players he has, England do have some weak positions, the likes of Glen Johnson are quite average despite what Irish Liverpool fans on here say, but it should be possible for a manager to get the best out of players like him and also you need a manager who will pick a team rather than 11 players, that means not playing Gerrard on the left and possibly dropping him or Lampard or even Rooney if he is not producing the goods.

I think your right to an extent, but I reckon it goes further then the manager. In the last 20 years, Englands best tournaments have been Italia 90 and Euro 96, getting to the semi final in each, but in each case they fell to the first team they faced in the knock out stages that they wouldnt have been expected to beat. They'v had 8 managers in that time, many of whom have won major titles at club level, yet essentially they have all failed with England, so surely there has to be more to it then the manager.

Sky/ITV/BBC and the papers are all guilty of building England up, building expectations that are based on nothing. I was saying this somewhere eles earlier, but can anyone think of a match in a major tournament in the last 20 years where England have beaten a side they wouldnt have been expected to?? Holland in 96 were a shambles, perhaps Argentina in 2002 is the only example. The only difference in this world cup compared to previous ones is that they got a drawn against tricky team in the last 16, as oppose to the last 8

dfx-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arfUBkPOK3w

OPENROAD

tommyhaas wrote: »

I think your right to an extent, but I reckon it goes further then the manager. In the last 20 years, Englands best tournaments have been Italia 90 and Euro 96, getting to the semi final in each, but in each case they fell to the first team they faced in the knock out stages that they wouldnt have been expected to beat. They'v had 8 managers in that time, many of whom have won major titles at club level, yet essentially they have all failed with England, so surely there has to be more to it then the manager.

Sky/ITV/BBC and the papers are all guilty of building England up, building expectations that are based on nothing. I was saying this somewhere eles earlier, but can anyone think of a match in a major tournament in the last 20 years where England have beaten a side they wouldnt have been expected to?? Holland in 96 were a shambles, perhaps Argentina in 2002 is the only example. The only difference in this world cup compared to previous ones is that they got a drawn against tricky team in the last 16, as oppose to the last 8

Bit harsh re Euro 96, that England team really gelled, yes they were host nation which possibly helped, but that was a superb team and they were very unlucky against the Germans in the semis.

I would say England have not performed since 1996 at any major tournament, something England have got into the habit of doing in friendlys is playing two/three teams in a match rather than largely sticking to a settled team, look at the build up to this world cup, you don't get your players for that much time so when you do I think you should be making sure that you get your team to gel, that you build a team that knows each other inside out.

For me England are particularly weak at right back and the left side of midfield, the rest of the team I feel they have the players who can do a reasonable job in tournaments in the short/medium term.I think Joe Hart is going to be the best English keeper since David Seaman, centre back could be a problem area for them though.

gosplan

This thread is easily the match of the current sky sports sh1tfest. :rolleyes:

If England were to go out in successive quarter/semi finals to Argentina, Brazil and then Spain, one could perhaps lead an inquest into why players like Iniesta don't come from England, whether there should be a winter break and how to improve the standard of coaching from a young age.

As it stands however ...

ENGLAND WERE WELL MATCHED BY ALGERIA!!!!

All this nonsense is basically a way of excusing the players from the fact that none of them showed up to the world cup.

Everyone's talking as though England did well but were somehow outfoxed tactically by an awesome team.

THEY WERE TOTALLY SH!TE!!

For this world cup, they were missing 11 players. Sort that out and then you can talk about what they are missing as a footballing nation.

Dont be at yourself

gosplan speaks sense. England were underwhelming even when faced with mediocre opposition like USA, Algeria and Slovenia, despite having vastly superior players available. That was nothing to do with the youth setup, it was down to a poor mentality and mismanagement.

Frisbee

It's a bit of both really no?

I mean if Algeria look more accomplished on the ball than England it's not solely because of the plyers not showing up or the way in which they play.

redout

gosplan

Frisbee wrote: »

It's a bit of both really no?

I mean if Algeria look more accomplished on the ball than England it's not solely because of the plyers not showing up or the way in which they play.

Just to remind ourselves of the qualifying campaign:

England qualified with a couple of games to spare and finished with the second most wins (9) and points (27), most goals (34), and highest goal difference (+28) in the European zone.

Now I get what you're saying as regards they way they play and I agree with it but it's not the issue.

Six months ago, this England team would have wiped the floor with Algeria and if they were to play again in six months time, they'd do it too.

The issue is how a team who finished with the highest goal difference in the European qualifying zone(including Spain, Germany, Portugal, Holland - who don't have these apparant grassroots footballing issues) looked no more capable than Slovenia or the USA when it came to the World Cup.




At this point, I would also like to include the observation that Germany don't exactly have a conveyor belt of Messi and Iniesta-like talent to bolster their solid players. In fact, when you think about it they produce players very similar to the apparently doomed-to-fail, functional-without-style English model, don't they?

Frisbee

gosplan wrote: »

In fact, when you think about it they produce players very similar to the apparently doomed-to-fail, functional-without-style English model, don't they?

In the past, yes.

but from what I've seen of this current crop of players, which I'll admit isn't much, just what I've seen in the WC, CL and the odd Bundesliga roundup I get to see, they are actual footballers. They try and get the ball down and play it and the game is played at a nice pace rather than:

Hoof
Chase
Lose Possession
Regain Posession.

Rinse and Repeat.

Frisbee

Des wrote: »

They start dealing with development of possession and movement to create space and other tactical issues.

Instead of putting some fat, tall moron in the team, who can kick the ball really, really far, and push the smaller, actual skillful, kids over.

Nail on head here basically, two examples of this from personal experience:

My brother was playing for a team at u16’s and u17’s. He’d be about 5’6”, fast and light enough. He was the teams topscorer both those years despite the fact that he only ever got maybe twenty minutes at the end of the game. Why? Because the manager was a former GAA-head who decided that the only way to win was to take the 11 biggest strongest players he had and put them into a formation and let them go out and outmuscle the opposition. He openly admitted to picking one of their centre backs because of the length of his goal kicks. Because of this the more skilful player were left on the bench and given a run out for a couple of minutes at the end of every game.

My other younger brother currently plays for Joey’s u13s. I enjoy going to his matches as they have a manager who tries to get them to play good football and if they don’t win, so be it, at least they’re trying to play the game the right way. My brother is probably one of the smallest players on that team and yet he’s the captain and starts every game at CM because he’s fcuking good on the ball and years of playing for a bunch of cloggers with our normal club has left him able to take a tackle and more than able to dish it out. However because they are a team of technical and slightly smaller players other teams go out and do what you see the likes of Stoke/Blackburn etc do every week in the Premier League, kick them off the ball. My dad is currently involved with the team, not as a manager but as a coach as it’s one of the requirements for his UEFA B licence which he’s doing next year. Every week he comes home and has to say that one of their players was injured and had to be subbed off all because some thick plank who is already 6 foot by the time he is 13 gets a game for other teams because he can kick the ball far and is good a clattering people smaller than him.

The problem is so deeply ingrained to English/Irish football culture that there is essentially no way out of it as any team that does try to play the right way can’t compete as they’re not big/strong enough and the hoofball merchants they come up against every week. However it can work if it is persevered with. My brothers team won the FAI Cup this year, playing good attractive football. Their centre backs are requested not to hoof the ball clear unless under a lot of pressure, rather being preferred to play it out from the back, the wingers aren’t just the fastest guys on the team with a bit of skill, the CM’s aren’t there to kick people and the two centre forwards aren’t just a combo of the two biggest guys on the team or a big guy and a small guy who is fast. So after two years of attempting to play football the right way they already have a national trophy under their belts, it’s been a bit of a slog of two years but they’ve done it, they also finished third in the league this year and are looking to push on next year. The way we play football here can be changed but it’s going to take patience and a manager willing to sacrifice trophies for a few years in order to get a team to where he wants it to be.

invinciblePRSTV

Whatever about the supposed structural problems in the English game, its on Capello, he took too big a gamble on bringing a collection of unfit and out of form players to the WC.

In particular:

Agbonlahor or Bent would have done a far better job then Heskey or Defoe in partnering Rooney and leading the line.

A fit and back in form Ash Young or an Adam Johnson would have had a far better impact at the WC then an unfit Lennon or hopeless SWP.

Dawson should have been played on the basis of form and fitness ahead of the collection of plodding unfit CBs in the squad.

Instead of having an unfit Barry or out of sorts Carrick as the water carrier in the centre, Capello should have swallowed his pride and brought a CM with him to the WC who was actually having a good domestic season and who knows how to sit deep, like a Danny Murphy or a Cattermole (!).

All in all, bringing along the almost exact same bunch of players who have played crap for the past 2 WCs prior to 2010 was only ever going to go the sameway.

Dues Bellator

here a song for there coach trip home......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6BJ3CvPLhs

MisterAnarchy

Frisbee wrote: »

Nail on head here basically, two examples of this from personal experience:

Its almost the same everywhere,not just at underage level
We were playing in a 7 a side Summer league last year and it was a pretty eye opening experience.
The standard of footballers was high ,most played for local clubs .
Our team tried to pass the ball out from the back,keep it on the ground while almost every other team went route one,just launching balls down the pitch bypassing midfield.
No patience,no build up play.
They were also overly physical,kicking our team repeatedly and the referees were giving us no protection.In fact they seemed delighted to cheat us.
We had a Portuguese and Spaniard on our teams and they came in for some special treatment.
In the end we pulled out as we had too many injuries and there is no enjoyment playing against Philistine footballers .
Peoples attitudes to football need to change in these Isles before any progress can be made.

Dues Bellator

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Its almost the same everywhere,not just at underage level
We were playing in a 7 a side Summer league last year and it was a pretty eye opening experience.
The standard of footballers was high ,most played for local clubs .
Our team tried to pass the ball out from the back,keep it on the ground while almost every other team went route one,just launching balls down the pitch bypassing midfield.
No patience,no build up play.
They were also overly physical,kicking our team repeatedly and the referees were giving us no protection.In fact they seemed delighted to cheat us.
We had a Portuguese and Spaniard on our teams and they came in for some special treatment.
In the end we pulled out as we had too many injuries and there is no enjoyment playing against Philistine footballers .
Peoples attitudes to football need to change in these Isles before any progress can be made.

ahhhh ya must of been playing us.......or every other dam team in ireland get over it..

_blank_

almanu wrote: »

ahhhh ya must of been playing us.......or every other dam team in ireland get over it..

:rolleyes:

And here, folks, is the problem.

Win at all costs, even at underage. Pathetic attitude, I can picture him now.

"Kick him, the fairy. Come on Paudie, you're big and ugly enough, kick the bollix out of the little bastard, who does he think he is with his "stepovers" and "backheels", don't let him do that to you again, ya hear me".

Frisbee

Des wrote: »

:rolleyes:

And here, folks, is the problem.

Win at all costs, even at underage. Pathetic attitude, I can picture him now.

Once again Des hits the nail on the head.

So much emphasis is put on winning the wrong way rather that playing football the right way that kids are basically brainwashed into thinking booting the ball long for your striker to chase and kicking anyone on the other team who is anyway skilful is how football should be played.

Until a radical change is undertaken by the English FA and FAI we will continue to stagnate while European and South American opposition improve more and more technically as the 'kick the skilful player' doesn't work once you get to international level as:

(1) Referees won't let you away with what you get away with at underage.

(2) You can't just pick out the skilful players and kick them as most likely nearly all the players on the other team are technically vastly superior to you.


Just on point one also is another huge problem with underage and amateur football in Ireland. Referee's are awful. Poor decision making, poor training and very easily intimidated by any of the 'rougher' teams.
When I was 16 I got a job on Saturday and Sunday mornings reffing 7-a-side games and all I had to do to be qualified for that was a two hour course with an unfailable 'test' at the end of it.That's not to say there isn't good referees out there, but they are in the minority.

Dues Bellator

Des wrote: »

:rolleyes:

And here, folks, is the problem.

Win at all costs, even at underage. Pathetic attitude, I can picture him now.

"Kick him, the fairy. Come on Paudie, you're big and ugly enough, kick the bollix out of the little bastard, who does he think he is with his "stepovers" and "backheels", don't let him do that to you again, ya hear me".

wow your lack of understanding of grassroots football is amusing....less of the insults , i dont think i mocked you in my post.we applaud talent and encourage it.the word fairy wouldnt get a laugh on my pitch either. a mod too pah..

davyjose

Papa Smut wrote: »

That's what I also thought. But look at the Spanish team for instance. 8 players from Barca, 5 players from Real. There can be no doubt that in a game where they play against each other, they hate each other. But it all gets put aside in the national interest, when the national team is playing, which is also interesting. How many of those players would prefer to play for a Catalan national team?

I don't know if that bitterness is THAT ingrained in the English team, and something I don't see in the Scottish, Welsh and Irish teams.

I know that Rooney, a passionate United player from an Everton background, and Gerrard - a died in the wool liverpool fan - are very good mates. So yeah, I think that point is irrelevant.

The Recliner

Des wrote: »

:rolleyes:

And here, folks, is the problem.

Win at all costs, even at underage. Pathetic attitude, I can picture him now.

"Kick him, the fairy. Come on Paudie, you're big and ugly enough, kick the bollix out of the little bastard, who does he think he is with his "stepovers" and "backheels", don't let him do that to you again, ya hear me".

A couple of years ago I was visiting a friend in Germany for a few days

He was playing in a 7 a side league and asked did I want to come along and play as generally one or two didn't turn up

It was a university town so there was a mix of nationalites involved, we had myself and the other Irish lad, an Scouser who played at the back and organised our play, a Brazilian, a Spanish lad and a couple of germans

it was such an eye opener to play in a team where there was such a strong passion about retaining the ball and organising the team tactically to play to our strengths in relation to the oppositions weakness

it was just such fun and so enjoyable and there was such a sense of achievement when we beat a team of more skillful players by combining our skill with organisation and brains rather than hacking them out of it

SuperInfinity

gosplan wrote: »

This thread is easily the match of the current sky sports sh1tfest. :rolleyes:

If England were to go out in successive quarter/semi finals to Argentina, Brazil and then Spain, one could perhaps lead an inquest into why players like Iniesta don't come from England, whether there should be a winter break and how to improve the standard of coaching from a young age.

As it stands however ...

ENGLAND WERE WELL MATCHED BY ALGERIA!!!!

All this nonsense is basically a way of excusing the players from the fact that none of them showed up to the world cup.

Everyone's talking as though England did well but were somehow outfoxed tactically by an awesome team.

THEY WERE TOTALLY SH!TE!!

For this world cup, they were missing 11 players. Sort that out and then you can talk about what they are missing as a footballing nation.

Bull****.

The vast majority of people here are saying they were sh!te.

"Everyone"? Yeah right, OK whatever you say dude... haaaahahahahaha.... The VAST majority are and were saying they're sh!te, in fact the vast majority in England are as well but ESPECIALLY here, here most people were before the competition.

I had a bet on Slovenia beating them at 7/1, which I think was a good one.

Sky News aren't saying England are good either anymore. They were after the Slovenia game but not anymore. After they went out Sky News and BBC were fairly admitting they were crap.

Get real. Just because something sounds funny doesn't mean it's right. Someone was just making a few points about England, that's all. "Everyone here" my ass.

Kiwi_knock

This article is featured on the Sky Sports website, it echoes a lot of the thoughts on here

The World Cup in South Africa still has almost two weeks to go but yet again England's footballers will be spending the latter stages of a major tournament on a beach rather than battling for the trophy.
It's a familiar story; barring one success on home soil, England have, for decades, flattered to deceive on the biggest stage. Already there are calls to replace manager Fabio Capello but chopping and changing the man in the hot seat has ultimately proved unsuccessful.
England have tried the home-grown passion of Kevin Keegan, the cool exterior of Sven Goran Eriksson, the rising star Steve McClaren and the disciplinarian that is Fabio Capello. All have failed to match national expectations.
If England want to be realistic contenders at major championships rather than over-hyped hopefuls, it is time to take drastic action.
Skysports.com editor Chris Harvey puts forward his five-point plan for transforming England's international fortunes.
Appoint a football figurehead

England do not merely need an elite team manager; they need someone who will take total control of our national game from top to bottom. The Football Association must appoint someone who employs a style, training methods, tactics and formation that can be used by teams playing at all levels and age groups. He must then be fully backed by his employers to see his vision through, irrespective of how the national team performs in the short term.
Arsene Wenger at Arsenal has laid down something of a blueprint as to how that may work, developing players in the youth and reserve teams that can slot seamlessly into the first XI when ready. A football philosopher like Wenger should be the type of person the FA look to bring in; they then need to back his vision to the hilt. They should also surround him with more football people who actually understand the game rather than administrators.

Teach youngsters properly

How our youngsters develop as footballers is all wrong. Arsenal legend Dennis Bergkamp, who came off the Ajax production line, always says "eight to 12 are the golden years of learning'' but in England we interrupt a child's football education at 10. Up until then, children play short-sided games with the emphasis on pass and move. After 10, the game moves to 11-a-side on almost full-sized pitches. The emphasis then switches from short-passes to hoofing the ball forward to the bigger, faster forward who runs through to confront a tinytot keeper guarding a gaping goal. The striker scores a bucketful of goals at 10, 11, 12 then his development stops as others catch up - but sadly the seeds have been sown and youngsters get into the habit of pumping long balls up field. We need to bring our kids up playing short forms of the game with the emphasis on passing, moving and dribbling. They need to all be comfortable with the ball at their feet before being thrust into the 11-a-side game.
The FA's director of football development, Sir Trevor Brooking, acknowledges it is vital our youngsters are brought up to be comfortable on the ball. "We don't keep the ball as well as other countries and aren't as good in the final third," he says. "You can't introduce that at 16. It has to be done before." I could not agree more.

Coach the coaches

The FA were forced to shelve plans for a National Football Centre but now it is needed more than ever. The renamed St George's Park should finally be open by 2012, allowing England to adopt a more intelligent approach to developing players and coaches. It will be the home of all the national age-group teams, fostering more of a Team England philosophy and continuity between sides. Sir Trevor Brooking, believes the centre will change the culture of English football and will deliver around 50,000 courses a year to coaches at all levels in an effort to set consistent standards.
The centre will begin making better coaches and they must be unleashed on missionary work into schools and clubs. Even more important, they must make it fun and remove the pressure from youngsters playing the game. They must encourage kids to try tricks, let them dribble with the ball rather than bellowing 'get rid of it' as you hear too often on Sunday mornings up and down the country.

Change cup teams

Fifa needs to stay strong over their six plus five proposal to encourage home-grown players but the FA can play their own part by altering the rules for our domestic cup competitions. Why not insist that eight of the starting eleven in the FA Cup and League Cup must be qualified to play for England? Fabio Capello has often bemoaned the fact there are too many foreign players in the Premier League which reduces the playing time of English youngsters and diminishes the pool available for the manager to select from.
While the Premier League would refuse to commit to any such restriction on players for league games, the clubs have a duty to produce players capable of representing England. Urging all teams to select English-qualified players for cup matches - and increasing the rewards for success in those competitions - would give hopefuls the additional playing time they need to develop into international footballers.

Forget Euro 2012

I know we all love the prospect of a football party every couple of years but we need to use the qualifiers for Euro 2012 to nurture a side that can challenge at the 2014 World Cup rather than one that may have some short-term success. Whoever takes the reins post-South Africa should be given a brief to prepare a team to take on the world rather than the best in Europe. If that means ditching established stars like Rio Ferdinand, Steven Gerrard and John Terry who may not make it to Brazil in four years' time then so be it.
Better to bring in their replacements and miss out on a place in Poland and Ukraine than find England are still not good enough in two summers' time and risk making another total hash of a World Cup campaign.

gosplan

SuperInfinity wrote: »

Bull****.

The vast majority of people here are saying they were sh!te.

"Everyone"? Yeah right, OK whatever you say dude... haaaahahahahaha....

No, the vast majority of people here are talking about grassroots development, like somehow that's the problem ... dude.

Hence, my saying...

Gosplan wrote:

Everyone's talking as though England did well but were somehow outfoxed tactically by an awesome team.

My point is that while there may be a problem there, it's not the reason they couldn't beat Algeria and the USA.

SuperInfinity wrote: »

The VAST majority are and were saying they're sh!te. in fact the vast majority in England are as well but ESPECIALLY here, here most people were before the competition.

Funny, not mentioned too much in here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055928321&highlight=england+world

SuperInfinity wrote: »

I had a bet on Slovenia beating them at 7/1, which I think was a good one.

Well done?

SuperInfinity wrote: »

Sky News aren't saying England are good either anymore. They were after the Slovenia game but not anymore. After they went out Sky News and BBC were fairly admitting they were crap.

No but they're putting it down to either grassroots development or the foreign manager or use of 4-4-2.

My point is that while the players aren't as good as many people thought, they are not on par with Algeria and the USA, they are far better than that.

The issue for Englands performance in this World Cup was that mentally they weren't there.

SuperInfinity wrote: »

Get real. Just because something sounds funny doesn't mean it's right. Someone was just making a few points about England, that's all. "Everyone here" my ass.

Not trying to sound funny. I'm just trying to stress that people are going into too much detail in this post-mortem.

Just to take the topics in the last post:

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Appoint a football figurehead

Teach youngsters properly

Coach the coaches

Change cup teams

Forget Euro 2012

So when all that's done, England will be able to field 11 players capable of winning a Algeria/USA/Slovenia group?

Kiwi_knock

gosplan wrote: »

Just to take the topics in the last post:



So when all that's done, England will be able to field 11 players capable of winning a Algeria/USA/Slovenia group?

Them 5 steps will, if implemented correctly, put them on a level playing field with the top football nations of the world. It would create structures not presently in place in the English game that would develop the players, the coaches and the management.

T runner

OPENROAD wrote: »

Think you are missing the point to an extent, forget about the winning anything despite what you hear here in Ireland, England would have been happy with a semi final spot, even a quarter final spot if they had played well, they played woeful.

They need a manager who is going to be able to get the best out of the players he has, England do have some weak positions, the likes of Glen Johnson are quite average despite what Irish Liverpool fans on here say, but it should be possible for a manager to get the best out of players like him and also you need a manager who will pick a team rather than 11 players, that means not playing Gerrard on the left and possibly dropping him or Lampard or even Rooney if he is not producing the goods.

But thats the point they "play woeful" Every tournament! (since 1990).
You are blaming the manager.

It was painfully obvious that Algeria had better control, technique and passing rythms than England. This wasnt a case of bad management. These are skills a player learns throughout his formative years.

The English players, dont have them. Skill, technique, short passing experience, confidence and eventually passing control (of a game) are sidelined for traits like graft, pressurising etc.

You can pick up the graft as you get older. You cant learn the other ones.

This has been the case for a long time and the gulf is getting bigger every tournament. Who is managing is irrelevant.

I believe the penny is finally dropping across the water now.
Better for Irelands chances if it does too, I guess.

SDTimeout

I think there is a key element it's implemented at junior level at least where i come from. It's my personal ethos towards football and a part of it comes from Arsenal too.

Having fun, and enjoying yourself. I enjoyed the above posters story about the organising to beat a team. I know how that feels i've done it several times playing in JJB.

You need a team like wenger has built, from the ground and age level up. Alot of those players have grown up together and are best friends with each other. That shines through alot louder on a football pitch imo that two people who are both on 120 grand a week.

gosplan

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

Them 5 steps will, if implemented correctly, put them on a level playing field with the top football nations of the world. It would create structures not presently in place in the English game that would develop the players, the coaches and the management.

I agree. All I'm saying is that they can still bottle it, which they did this time around.

What you're discussing, I feel more applies to the last world cup when they went out to Portugal. Obviously it still applies now, but it won't stop them conceding from a long kick out or their goalie forgetting how to catch a ball.

SuperInfinity

gosplan wrote: »

No, the vast majority of people here are talking about grassroots development, like somehow that's the problem ... dude.

Of course that's the problem. That's what you say when you give up on your players and your side, you say the only way to improve is to get back to the grassroots and get them playing and doing the right things since they're young. It's like education, you have to do it when young. They're admitting that they don't have the players.

What do you suggest the problem is if it's not that?

gosplan wrote: »

My point is that while there may be a problem there, it's not the reason they couldn't beat Algeria and the USA.

How could it NOT be the reason? Are you seriously telling me that if the English players were trained or practiced perfectly well since they were five years olds, like Brazilians do, that they couldn't beat USA or Algeria? That defies logic.

gosplan wrote: »

No but they're putting it down to either grassroots development or the foreign manager or use of 4-4-2.

What the hell are you on about? Talking about how they're not producing the players and their grassroots development would all have to change is the least apologetic thing they can do for their team.

Short of putting it down to racial differences of anatomy which makes England bad at soccer, grassroots development is the only possible reason they are fundamentally worse no matter how they set up their team.

The foreign manager and use of 4-4-2 are excuses alright, but they're valid explanations on why England did even worse than they should have. They might have put up a better showing if they had a better manager that spoke English.

Them talking about the "grassroots" is like saying to someone who has easily beaten you at an amateur sport that you would have to work for hours and hours training and exercising and eating right and studying, just for a chance to beat them. In other words that you really suck compared to them and would have to fundamentally change in every way to have a chance of beating them.... or even that you would have to have a child and them to practice and train hard since they were little in order to have a chance of beating them. That's what the English media are finally admitting about England.... that they just don't have the players.

blinding

Maybe the English players are not good enough.

keane2097

SuperInfinity wrote: »

Of course that's the problem. That's what you say when you give up on your players and your side, you say the only way to improve is to get back to the grassroots and get them playing and doing the right things since they're young. It's like education, you have to do it when young. They're admitting that they don't have the players.

What do you suggest the problem is if it's not that?

How could it NOT be the reason? Are you seriously telling me that if the English players were trained or practiced perfectly well since they were five years olds, like Brazilians do, that they couldn't beat USA or Algeria? That defies logic.

What the hell are you on about? Talking about how they're not producing the players and their grassroots development would all have to change is the least apologetic thing they can do for their team.

Short of putting it down to racial differences of anatomy which makes England bad at soccer, grassroots development is the only possible reason they are fundamentally worse no matter how they set up their team.

The foreign manager and use of 4-4-2 are excuses alright, but they're valid explanations on why England did even worse than they should have. They might have put up a better showing if they had a better manager that spoke English.

Them talking about the "grassroots" is like saying to someone who has easily beaten you at an amateur sport that you would have to work for hours and hours training and exercising and eating right and studying, just for a chance to beat them. In other words that you really suck compared to them and would have to fundamentally change in every way to have a chance of beating them.... or even that you would have to have a child and them to practice and train hard since they were little in order to have a chance of beating them. That's what the English media are finally admitting about England.... that they just don't have the players.

You're missing his point completely.

He's saying players like Gerrard, Terry, Cole, Lampard, Rooney etc. should have been able to outclass the likes of Algeria and USA.

Regardless of grassroots training, which I agree needs to be completely overhauled, he's correct in saying these players should have been better than they were.

greendom

keane2097 wrote: »

You're missing his point completely.

He's saying players like Gerrard, Terry, Cole, Lampard, Rooney etc. should have been able to outclass the likes of Algeria and USA.

Regardless of grassroots training, which I agree needs to be completely overhauled, he's correct in saying these players should have been better than they were.

So are we saying Messi would have been at the level of Joe Cole if he had come through the English system or that Villa would have been at the level of Defoe.

I'm not convinced - surely that degree of natural ability would overcome any deficiencies in a particular coaching system

karma_

greendom wrote: »

So are we saying Messi would have been at the level of Joe Cole if he had come through the English system or that Villa would have been at the level of Defoe.

I'm not convinced - surely that degree of natural ability would overcome any deficiencies in a particular coaching system

Had Messi been English he probably would not have made it to professional level at all. Small skilful players who need medical help and hormones likely would not be highly regarded in the English youth system.

Same in the Irish system, given a previous posters remarks about how he likes strong tall players who bully results and we should get over it. No wonder we don;t produce that kind of player.

keane2097

greendom wrote: »

So are we saying Messi would have been at the level of Joe Cole if he had come through the English system or that Villa would have been at the level of Defoe.

I'm not convinced - surely that degree of natural ability would overcome any deficiencies in a particular coaching system

No I don't think that's what anyone's saying.

The likes of Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard are enormously talented players, and have flourished in spite of coaching in England. These three have all been (at various times granted) world class.

This begs the question of why these players were, at this WC, incapable of beating Algeria. Grass roots coaching is absolutely not an explanation for why the likes of Rooney underperformed.

gosplan

SuperInfinity wrote: »

they just don't have the players.

Are you actually saying that the English players, in terms of talent, aren't good enough to beat Algeria or the USA? that they ned to develop better players to conquer world powers like that.

You'd find it difficult to say whether Rooney or Altidore or Bouazza is a better player? Really?

Please re-read my last couple of posts until you understand what I'm saying.

GreeBo

So whats changed from the days when United were able to bring up an entire team of talented British youngsters (Scholes, Butt, Beckham, Nevilles, Giggs, etc?)

This seems to be pretty much what Wenger is doing year in year out at Arsenal (barring the British bit obviously!)

leninbenjamin

GreeBo wrote: »

So whats changed from the days when United were able to bring up an entire team of talented British youngsters (Scholes, Butt, Beckham, Nevilles, Giggs, etc?)

90 minute rule.

SuperInfinity

greendom wrote: »

So are we saying Messi would have been at the level of Joe Cole if he had come through the English system or that Villa would have been at the level of Defoe.

I'm not convinced - surely that degree of natural ability would overcome any deficiencies in a particular coaching system

The "natural ability" has to start somewhere. What's natural to him now may be because it's been what he's been doing since a very young lad. If he never had the experiences and ability to play that he did at 14, he'd never become the player he is today. Just like how someone who never played soccer doesn't just pick it up and become a superstar.

If you had Messi at 5 years old and put him in an English culture, who knows where he'd end up. Maybe he would play soccer, maybe he would find out he was quite good and had a great natural ability. But I doubt he'd ever be as famous as he is.

It's not just the coaching system, it's videogames, internet, hundreds of tv channels, everything. It's everything.

Dont be at yourself

leninbenjamin wrote: »

90 minute rule.

Didn't Celtic win a European cup with a squad of players born and raised a stone's throw from Celtic Park?

What's happened to West Ham's academy? They've a great record for producing talent, and have the whole of London and beyond to unearth stars.

Coillte_Bhoy

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Didn't Celtic win a European cup with a squad of players born and raised a stone's throw from Celtic Park?

All born and raised within 30 miles of Celtic Park.

Jazzy

some good posts here, been a good read. the english team is going to have to make some tough calls and if capello didnt make them, I wonder why.
the most critical type of player they need is someone like Veron, a player that can calm the play down and take control of the midfield and where the ball goes. its such a shame that carrick is not nearly as good as veron in this role