England: The Post Mortem

Pinturicchio

"Fabio Capello has been a disaster in cup competitions for 15 years & was never going to win the tournament"

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2890/world-cup-2010/2010/06/28/1999115/world-cup-2010-england-inquest-comment-fabio-capello-has

eagle eye

All Englands problems stem from midfield. For most youth teams the formation is 4-4-2 with midfielders running up and down the pitch like the old days. That all has to change, the big problem with any English team is the lack of defensive midfielders. Look at all the best ones in the Premier League, they are all foreign imports. There is only one England International who knows how to play defensive midfield and thats Hargreaves and he didn't come up through the English youth system.
And because players are used in a box to box style as youths there is no room for a playmaker. How many players have come through that can do that for England? I'd guess that anybody capable of it is playing out wide or up front as youths and if they aren't great crossers or they can't score goals with regularity they end up not even getting a chance at senior level with a top club.
The defense looked bad in the World Cup but the England defenders had more to do than most teams as they have to defend the front as well as behind and can't sit deep like what you see the Brazilians doing.

Pinturicchio

eagle eye wrote: »

All Englands problems stem from midfield. For most youth teams the formation is 4-4-2 with midfielders running up and down the pitch like the old days. That all has to change, the big problem with any English team is the lack of defensive midfielders. Look at all the best ones in the Premier League, they are all foreign imports. There is only one England International who knows how to play defensive midfield and thats Hargreaves and he didn't come up through the English youth system.
And because players are used in a box to box style as youths there is no room for a playmaker. How many players have come through that can do that for England? I'd guess that anybody capable of it is playing out wide or up front as youths and if they aren't great crossers or they can't score goals with regularity they end up not even getting a chance at senior level with a top club.
The defense looked bad in the World Cup but the England defenders had more to do than most teams as they have to defend the front as well as behind and can't sit deep like what you see the Brazilians doing.

Carrick?

jdooley28

Parker?

FUNKY LOVER

and until managers like pulis and allardyce stop getting plaudits for kicking teams off the park like arsenal(the good english way)it will continue.

_Bella_

I thoguht this was quite a good blog from BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/mattslater/2010/06/can_english_football_ever_adap.html

I heard a funny story about how English football works (muddles through, more like) the other day.

Back in 2003 the FA was getting Fabio Capello-sized stick from all quarters about its disciplinary procedures.

Some clubs were angry about how long it took for punishments to be dished out, others were annoyed when rivals played the system to ensure their stars would be eligible for big games, the international authorities wanted automatic suspensions, the players demanded a right of appeal and the men from the counties viewed any talk of change as another assault on their place at the heart of the national game. Only the lawyers were happy, being paid silly sums for straightforward work.

Slow, easy to circumnavigate, amateurish and bad value for money - sounds like England's defensive display against Germany, doesn't it?

But I don't tell this story for the easy gag, I tell it because it illustrates why changing anything in English football is so hard, frustrating and ultimately underwhelming. Too many competing agendas, too many self-interested voices.

So forgive me if I don't get too excited about the result of the soul-searching that has just commenced. We are past masters at the impressive-looking policy document, po-faced press conference and never-again declaration of intent, it is mastering passes we struggle with.

Howard Wilkinson was on BBC Radio 5 Live on Monday. It was a great interview - passionate but informed, dismayed but measured.

He explained how he had written a report for the FA which said English football needed to devote more resources to youth development, spend more time on technical skills, build a national football centre and prepare for a future when 4-4-2 will be obsolete.

Gerrard looked uncomfortable on the left of Capello's 4-4-2 at times during the World Cup

Wilkinson wrote that report, the Charter for Quality, in 1997. English football still does not have enough coaches, still places too much importance on results at youth level, still lacks a national football centre and still defaults to 4-4-2 under pressure.

Seven years later, after England's defeat at Euro 2004, the FA held another internal review. Questions were asked about the access an England manager has to his players, the importance of friendly matches and the danger of playing too much club football. No change there, then.

In 2005, following more turmoil at the governing body, we had another review, this time looking at the FA's structure. Lord Burns flagged up the conflicts of interest, a lack of representation for key groups and the excessive influence of the Premier League. Among his remedies were the creation of a "parliament of football" and three independent members on the FA board. We are still waiting.

In 2007, it was time to look at English football's youth development system, again. Rugby league boss Richard Lewis was called in and he suggested a number of tweaks to the academy network born from Wilkinson's charter. The most important of those, genuine FA involvement in the clubs' youth set-ups, was fudged.

A year later England would fail to qualify for Euro 2008 and "root and branch" reforms were the promised response. But what we got was the public humiliation of an over-promoted coach, his replacement by the most expensive manager money could buy and...erm, that's it.

Fabio Capello, a man who the FA had looked at when it seemed Sven-Goran Eriksson was off to Chelsea but ruled out because of his lack of international experience and inability to speak English, was now the answer. The only answer.

That's the English response: big talk about far-reaching reforms and thinking the unthinkable, before bottling it and going for the quick fix. Over in Germany, however, they do things a bit differently...they actually do things.

Having suffered the "humiliation" of losing to Croatia in the quarter-finals of World Cup 1998 and failing to get out of the group stages of Euro 2000 (compounded by a 1-0 defeat to a mediocre England), the bosses at the German FA sat down with their counterparts at the Bundesliga and came up with a plan: a 500m-euro investment in youth.

As a result, Germany has almost 13 times as many qualified coaches as England, more home-grown talent playing in its top league (Europe's most profitable) and a crop of young players who have now beaten England 4-0 in the 2009 European U-21 Final and 4-1 at the 2010 World Cup.

Does anybody think the response to England's latest crisis will be as bold, coherent and effective?

Thanks to a rare moment of common sense and leadership, the FA actually sorted out the disciplinary procedure problem in 2003.

The clubs got quicker/more consistent rulings, the players kept their right to appeal, Fifa/Uefa were placated by the reduced timeframe and the amateurs lost their say on professional cases but got back the blazers that an earlier FA regime had taken away - £25,000 being a small price to pay for keeping the peace.

If only assembling an England squad capable of winning a tournament was so easy. Delivering one of those in time for the 2018 World Cup will cost more like £250m and the clock is ticking.

gosplan

While I agree with practically everything posted in here I think an important question still remains unanswered.

Why did England suffer one of the biggest collective freezes we've ever seen from an international team?

It's difficult to talk about a national team's mentality without sounding racist but a couple of observations would be ...

France are either practically unbeatable or totally unbearable. Win the thing, then go out in group stages, get to the finals, then go out in group stage.

Germany always seem to play to their maximum.

England very rarely play to their maximum when the pressure is on.

The FA can introduce whatever reforms to give England a playing population on par with Spain or Argentina but you're still left with some questions.

How come England have never won a penalty shootout at the WC while Germany have never lost one?

How come England goalies make the most horrendous gaffes in pressure games?

How the hell did that route-one ball get through for the German's first goal

How did one of, if not the best European team in qualification become one of, if not the worst European team in the tournament?

Now a lot of the above could be down to bad luck or player form but is it unfair to say that in general, England teams are scared going into international tournaments?

I think it's fair to say that as long as this issue remains unresolved, England will fail to deliver.

My own feeling is that the pressure on this 'Golden Generation' to deliver, particularly in their final World Cup, was simply too much for them. A good start to addressing the issue would be a lot of fresh faces and continuity in management.

_Bella_

BBCs list of who should stay and go, do you agree?

WHO WILL GO AND WHO WILL STAY FROM ENGLAND'S WORLD CUP SQUAD?

STAY: Hart, G.Johnson, A. Cole, Terry, Dawson, Ferdinand, Lennon, Gerrard, Lampard, Barry, Milner, Rooney, Defoe, Crouch.

GO: Green, Upson, Carragher, Wright-Phillips, Heskey, Carrick.

IN DANGER: James, J. Cole, Warnock.

CONTENDERS: Gibbs, Cahill, Wilshere, A. Johnson, Agbonlahor, Rodwell, Walcott, Wickham.

T runner

keane2097 wrote: »

You're missing his point completely.

He's saying players like Gerrard, Terry, Cole, Lampard, Rooney etc. should have been able to outclass the likes of Algeria and USA.

Regardless of grassroots training, which I agree needs to be completely overhauled, he's correct in saying these players should have been better than they were.

These are all great players. The problem when they play together is that they all have the same flaws: advanced skill levels, advanced short passing skills, exposure to advanced short passing.

You dont have a problem when one player lacks these advanced skills: e.g Lampard at Chelsea.

When the whole team lack the same skills you have problems.
England couldnt outclass Algeria because their short passing possession game was inferior to Algeria's. Simple as that.

keane2097

T runner wrote: »

These are all great players. The problem when they play together is that they all have the same flaws: advanced skill levels, advanced short passing skills, exposure to advanced short passing.

You dont have a problem when one player lacks these advanced skills: e.g Lampard at Chelsea.

When the whole team lack the same skills you have problems.
England couldnt outclass Algeria because their short passing possession game was inferior to Algeria's. Simple as that.

Yeah you might be right tbh.

Turtyturd

SuperInfinity wrote: »

If you had Messi at 5 years old and put him in an English culture, who knows where he'd end up. Maybe he would play soccer, maybe he would find out he was quite good and had a great natural ability. But I doubt he'd ever be as famous as he is.

I think considering his size and the physical aspect of the English game he would probably not have made it through to professional level.

Rumours going around that the reason that Terry going to press about team selection and Capello was to do with wanting Gerrard to be dsmissed as captain over Gerrard's private circumstances.

T runner

gosplan wrote: »

Why did England suffer one of the biggest collective freezes we've ever seen from an international team?

Theyb realised that they were a long distance from the expectancy of the English media/supporters.

How come England have never won a penalty shootout at the WC while Germany have never lost one?

Germany are very practically minded. This makes it easier not to get emotionally involved in a high pressure situation. They also prepare for penalties. The players go through a mental routine like a rugby kicker which distracts from pressure.

You often see English kickers turn their back on the goal after placing the ball. This is a huge NO NO.

It means they are trying to shut out the goal to overcome a mental difficulty they are experiencing. Ofcourse they eventually have to face the goal...with the mental issue still unresolved.....just before they miss.


The German goalie has access to a list before each knockout game showing where the opposition kickers like to go.

How come England goalies make the most horrendous gaffes in pressure games?

I believe the latest gaffe by Greene could be blamed equally on the goal keeping coaches. Greene was on one knee when he tried to catch the ball.
This is unusual and Id guess that it was a strategy to deqal with the unpredictable new ball. If you look at the goal you will see that even after spilling it Greene seemed confident he could grab it before it crossed teh line. Ofcourse the right knee under the body immobilised him and he could just watch as it rolled in.

How did one of, if not the best European team in qualification become one of, if not the worst European team in the tournament?

In qualification, squads have only a short time together so a team is less than the sum of its parts. This suits England.

In a tournament teams can get their passing patterns going and technique becomes more important. This does not suit England.

I think it's fair to say that as long as this issue remains unresolved, England will fail to deliver.

Thats true but id argue teh issue is lack of technique.

big_show

Deleted User wrote: »

Rumours going around that the reason that Terry going to press about team selection and Capello was to do with wanting Gerrard to be dsmissed as captain over Gerrard's private circumstances.

Just heard this as well, it was over Gerrard getting his wife's sister pregnant....

no reliable source though.

_blank_

his wife doesn't have a sister, so that's lies

gosplan

T runner wrote: »

These are all great players. The problem when they play together is that they all have the same flaws: advanced skill levels, advanced short passing skills, exposure to advanced short passing.

You dont have a problem when one player lacks these advanced skills: e.g Lampard at Chelsea.

When the whole team lack the same skills you have problems.
England couldnt outclass Algeria because their short passing possession game was inferior to Algeria's. Simple as that.

How do you explain the qualifying then?

Edit: oh just read your explination.

Again, I agree with you but not as regards Algeria. England fall short against Spain/Protugal etc due to a lack of technique. England fall short against Algeria and the USA due to a lack of guts.

blinding

It will be very interesting to see if Capello continues as England boss will he have John Terry in his future squads.

Capello declaring that John Terry made a mistake with his press briefing it sure would be interesting to see if Capello would include Terry again.

Thats if Capello wants or gets the chance to chose English squads in the future.

Livvie

blinding wrote: »

Maybe the English players are not good enough.

Most people's disappointment is over the seeming lack of effort at times. And eleven not so good players can still be a good team - there was no obvious team spirit in that side.

Good to see that there isn't over-much blame on the referee though - people seem to accept that even if the goal had stood, the team generally wasn't good enough.

_Bella_

Really excellent article by Jurgen Klinsmaan on how he and Loew changed German football and gives recommendations to the English

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8789682.stm