Do our dogs love us?

morganafay

Graces7 wrote: »

I don't want or ask that of any animal; only they they be themselves and happy with being themselves.

Would hate for eg wild birds to eat from my hand.

When we lived on a pine marten;s patch we were so careful not to "tame" her in any way; that would have diminished her nature and her beauty

And the same with the dogs; any training is for their safety only. So no tricks etc.

That is my way of loving them. Which to me matters more than if they love me. Leaving them free.

I definitely agree with letting them be themselves. Two of my guinea pigs are nervous, so I don't handle them or try to force them to become used to being handled, because they hate it. I just give them treats and let them come to me if they want. Some people really humanize them, and treat them more like a dog or cat, like picking them up and playing with them, but you have to let them be themselves.

But some of them are very friendly and love being cuddled. I doubt they love me, they just love the cuddles and treats they get, but sometimes they show affection to me and that's very rewarding, that I have gained their trust.

My rabbits don't like being cuddled, as rabbits often don't, so I try not to pick them up unless I have to move them somewhere. But I sit with them and let them hop onto my lap if they want and be rubbed and they'll nibble my hands or rub their chin up to me, kinda like how a cat rubs their face on you.

I like them to be tame, because they are happier when they are tamer, then when they're scared all the time. The tamer ones will be more outgoing and run around more, etc. And they are domesticated animals after all. But I really respect that they might not want to be handled and are prey animals so can be nervous.

I don't see anything wrong with gaining their trust over months of sitting with them, feeding them treats, etc. but not by forcing them to be handled when they don't want to be.

lrushe

peasant wrote: »

Personally, I value my dogs' "love" immensely.

[hairsplitting exercise]
Love by definition is a human emotion. Dogs, as animals, are incapable of experiencing/feeling/expressing human love (as it is defined). Human love, over and above a raft of feelings and emotions (which dogs also experience to a degree) also calls for the involvement of a rational component which dogs simply do not possess
[/hairsplitting exercise]

I do agree that 'love' is prehaps not technically (in a hair splitting kinda way!) the correct word for what dog feels but its hard to put an exact word on it so love will do for me

morganafay

There are lots of different types of love, so even if they don't have human love, they still kinda feel love. Maybe their love is better, because humans often hurt the people they love . . .

Even if they don't have human love, they're still great because they don't have other negative human emotions . . .

mikemac

Guineapigrescue wrote: »

My opinion on cats anyways is that some do love their owners, cats aren't really pack animals as such some do like being in groups or having one or two other special cat buddies but the fact that they aren't all 100% pack animals means the fact they want to be around you and miss you if you're gone means they love you even more than pooches which are pack animals and all hate being without their pack member.

Lucky you.
I get the impression our cat and some of the cats before her utterly look down on our family. A complete user!
Walking around the kitchen like they own the place and the humans are in the way.
Lately the cat has shacked up with the neighbours, she has her pick of places to dine.

There is a lot of definitions of a dogs love for it's owner but the quote on Page 2 said it best. They love differently to humans and they do it better, ah

Graces7

morganafay wrote: »

There are lots of different types of love, so even if they don't have human love, they still kinda feel love. Maybe their love is better, because humans often hurt the people they love . . .

Even if they don't have human love, they're still great because they don't have other negative human emotions . . .

Hmmm, re the "negative human emotions"... Our wee hound ( JRT /Bassett cross. jackass? Russet?) gets insanely jealous of colle when collie is getting attention she wants to the point of attacking her. ( not too seriously.. just making sure she knows her place).

I have no illusions re their nature; they are after all, dogs..

And not all people hurt the ones they love by any means.

morganafay

Graces7 wrote: »

Hmmm, re the "negative human emotions"... Our wee hound ( JRT /Bassett cross. jackass? Russet?) gets insanely jealous of colle when collie is getting attention she wants to the point of attacking her. ( not too seriously.. just making sure she knows her place).

I have no illusions re their nature; they are after all, dogs..

And not all people hurt the ones they love by any means.

No, but humans can do bad things, and dogs, even if they are aggressive or something, could never be capable of something evil. They're animals and innocent, and even if they do something someone considers bad, they may have no understanding of it being wrong . . . if that makes sense.

Dogs can be jealous, greedy, grumpy etc. but they're innocent animals at the end of the day. They don't have spite or hold grudges or anything. Well not the same way people can!

peasant

lrushe wrote: »

I do agree that 'love' is prehaps not technically (in a hair splitting kinda way!) the correct word for what dog feels but its hard to put an exact word on it so love will do for me

[hairsplitting exercise volume II]
...and therein lies the danger ...it will not do!
By applying human values to animals and their behaviour we are doing them a great disservice, even if we only use these human values in a descriptive fashion

No great harm in saying that your dog loves you ...or so one would think.
but this kind of talk also opens the floodgates to people who claim that (all or certain breeds) dogs are "viscious" and that they would "savage" you, etc ...

We, who love our dogs, should take great care to descibe them and their behaviour in the correct vocabular that befits them and their capabilities ...it is in their interest.
[/hairsplitting exercise volume II]

lrushe

peasant wrote: »

No great harm in saying that your dog loves you ...or so one would think.
but this kind of talk also opens the floodgates to people who claim that (all or certain breeds) dogs are "viscious" and that they would "savage" you, etc ...

Sorry I don't see the comparison there at all??? So what one word would you use to describe how your dog feels about you if anything at all?

fishfoodie

I think one has to accept that dogs & cats come from different species, & the two species have different genetic-level instincts.

Dogs are derived from wolves, a pack animal; so they need at a fundamental level companionship.

Some cat species, do have prides, but a lot, I think more do not.

I think this is why you get the whole range of behaviours from cats; but with dogs you know that they will need to be part of the pack.

As for love; I give you 'Grey-Friars Bobby' !

Greyfriars Bobby was a Skye Terrier who became known in 19th-century Edinburgh after reportedly spending 14 years guarding the grave of his owner, John Gray, until he died himself on 14 January 1872. A year later, Lady Burdett-Coutts had a statue and fountain erected at the southern end of the George IV Bridge to commemorate him.

peasant

lrushe wrote: »

Sorry I don't see the comparison there at all??? So what one word would you use to describe how your dog feels about you if anything at all?

You got me there ...can't really think of one word to properly describe a feeling that I myself have never felt and will never feel ...I'm not a dog after all.

That still doesn't change my main point though. If we use our human value system and apply it 1:1 to dogs (and other animals) we are doing them an injustice by evaluating their behaviour to a non-applicable scale.

So dogs may not be capable of love (in the strict sense), but they are also not capable of being devious or evil, which should be a consolation.


What I'm trying to get at in the long run is to stop people from accusing dogs of things that they aren't capable/guilty of (see "dangerous dogs" discussion) and to try and get people to see dogs for what they really are and treat them accordingly.
This may all be a bit heady in such an innocent thread, but it needs to be said anyway.

xxchloexx

I was minding my aunts dog for her while she was away its a little yorkie the same as my own dog , but my dog didn't want anything to do with him , if i would pet the other dog mine would come over and bark until i picked him up insted and in the evening when i was watching tv my dog would walk into the kitchen if the other one came in. It really was total and utter jealousy ha he's like my baby cant imagine not having him though!

dogbert27

Human love? Dog love? It's just love.

Love is an emotion just like happiness, sadness.

When a dog is happy are we to believe that he doesn't really know he's happy because happiness is defined human emotion that a dog doesn't understand?

My dog loves me and I love my dog. End of.

pwd

It depends on how much personality the dog has; which depends largely on how much it is socialised, especially when it's young.
A dog can bond to a cruel or cold owner, but it wouldn't display anything like love for them.

Graces7

fishfoodie wrote: »

I think one has to accept that dogs & cats come from different species, & the two species have different genetic-level instincts.

Dogs are derived from wolves, a pack animal; so they need at a fundamental level companionship.

Some cat species, do have prides, but a lot, I think more do not.

I think this is why you get the whole range of behaviours from cats; but with dogs you know that they will need to be part of the pack.

As for love; I give you 'Grey-Friars Bobby' !

KNEW someone would mention him,,, and Lassie etc.

lol!

That is why I used the term "dog like devotion" ... They bond with their people; even when that person beats and abuses them.

It is that that is "mistaken" for a "human like" love. When it is very, very different.

But how a dog;s devotion is perceived is goverened by our own needs also. What we are seeking and needing?

It worries to read posts that say dogs love more than hmans , because the poster has been let down or hurt by someone.

And yet the simply devotion of an animal, as we see in PAT dogs, caen be a healing. SIMPLE is the word here of course.

I see dogs differently from many here, being a reluctant dog owner. I would never have chosen to get a dog, you see...Situations arose and were met.

I would miss my two horribly now and they get the best care, with expertise poured in from Canada, but it is not the same maybe as choosng a wee puppy etc.

When wee dog was tiny, we fostered two other JRT puppies and I ... words fail! I used to be away days when the family were here and when I returned they would engulf me. For some reason, dogs gravitate to me.

But I am blessed with good human caring in all its facets; it is what I give to these two, especially collie, so damaged she will never be whole that occupies me. rather than her love for me, the first and only stable person in all her sad years.

And I was thrilled when expertfamilydog behaviourist said that I have done better withher than anyone else could have done.. I often feel totally inadequate to her needs.

Opps; long post.. but thank you for this thread as it has led to some fruitful thinking here.

THANK YOU!

Graces7

pwd wrote: »

It depends on how much personality the dog has; which depends largely on how much it is socialised, especially when it's young.
A dog can bond to a cruel or cold owner, but it wouldn't display anything like love for them.

But they do. That is the amazing thing and how dogs differ.

Dickens captured it well in Oliver Twist; Bill Sykes's dog that he kicked and beat . Followed him and led to his capture and death. Utterly devoted.

Sadly some abused children are the same. Love does not take account of these things in that sense.

Graces7

dogbert27 wrote: »

Human love? Dog love? It's just love.

Love is an emotion just like happiness, sadness.

When a dog is happy are we to believe that he doesn't really know he's happy because happiness is defined human emotion that a dog doesn't understand?

My dog loves me and I love my dog. End of.

Oh no; love is far, far more than an emotion. It is a giving that gives. In actions.. not some isolated feeling.

morganafay

I was just thinking, do dogs love each other? My dogs would hate to be seperated. When I took one of them to college to be groomed, the other one that's her best friend, sat outside all day in the rain according to my dad . . . and she hates the rain and never goes out in the rain.

And my old cat pined for my dog when she died. My neighbour's cat stopped eating for about a week after its friend died, and it wasn't sick or anything.

If they love each other then they must love us, in their own way. My new puppy and me have already bonded, and I definitely think she loves me.


Then again, my dad was saying "You know how much you love that puppy, I love you 100 times more" . . . and I said, "No chance, I'm not as cute as this puppy" and he said "You've only had it two days!" So I had to think, yeah he does love me more. Because if one of my dogs died, I would eventually get over it, at least mostly over it, eventually . . . but I would never get over losing a child, or a brother, sister or parent. So I obviously do love my family/friends more than my pets . . . but that doesn't mean I don't love my pets and they don't love me.


So what I mean is, just because their love is different, or less strong than human love for each other, doesn't mean it is not real. Even if you do or don't call it love . . .

morganafay

Graces7 wrote: »

But they do. That is the amazing thing and how dogs differ.

Dickens captured it well in Oliver Twist; Bill Sykes's dog that he kicked and beat . Followed him and led to his capture and death. Utterly devoted.

Sadly some abused children are the same. Love does not take account of these things in that sense.

And people in abusive relationships, or just terrible relationships can still love each other . . .