Left flabbergasted at Drogheda land break-in.

Biggins

Was up this morning early and passed/seen a break-in.
8 caravans of the travelling community stopped at was once the Bridgeford club (now knocked down so its unused but still private owned land) on the Termonfeckin Road, Drogheda.
A number of the adults hopped out and went up to the large front gates.
When they couldn't unchain the gates due to a heavy lock, they rammed the two gates with a 4x4 and busted them down - then drove in.
A few hours later and the place was filled with even more caravans.

Now I am NOT out to rant about the travelling community but have one legal question - how do they get away with this?
If you or I broke into private land, we would be arrested for trespassing alone in minutes, never mind the damage that was done in order to do it.

In case anyone is wondering, yes, I did ring the Gardi to inform them what happened.
I know in my heart and soul though that NOTHING will be done.

I am travelling that way shortly again so will take a picture of the damage done to the gates alone.

Its a disgrace. :mad:

Biggins

Gates are now propped up by 2 pillars and rope.



The large all surrounding railings (below) which they couldn't get through or around thus the ramming of the large gates.

HAMMERCURRENT

If the gardai ask them how they got in, they will swear that the gate was broken when they got there this morning.
Although it's doubtfull that the gardai will even bother asking them.
But I'm sure the travellers will tidy up and fix the gate when they are finished using the site. NOT!

Biggins

Yet again, it seems to be one law for us and another (non-applied law) for others.

the_syco

Biggins wrote: »

Yet again, it seems to be one law for us and another (non-applied law) for others.

It always has.

I get caught trespassing, I'll get fined, maybe even jailed. Have never seen that happen to the travellers. The travellers will most likely get pad to leave, and the owner/tax payer will pay for the clean up of the site, where as if I dropped a crisp bag, I may get a fine.

The best way to get them out is to "drop" a ton of muck at the entrance at night (works well if it's the only entrance), leave it for a week, and then come back, and remove the muck. Tell them that they move, or the muck returns, and they'll move. Pavee Point will moan, but they can f**k right off.

DYLF

problem is its private property....
was a similar situation in the old mill in Julianstown last year. the gardai wont do anything unless the owners of the property request the gardai to remove them from the grounds

positron

Just wondering why gardii wouldn't act in this particular instance?

Say the owner did something on his land that he didn't have planning permission to do - setting up huge fireworks for instance, or setting up some chemical warehouse - without getting the approval. Wouldn't the people around that land have a case to argue, and wouldn't the Gardii go in and question the owner in that case? And is this not a similar situation?

I think Gardii have the overall responsibility of that the general law and order is maintained in their area, irrespective of if a complaint has been made or not, imho!

HAMMERCURRENT

Padraig Nally had a novel approach to this issue!

The Davestator

Its in the leader this week and people are compaining about the fact the site wasnt secured enough :eek::eek::eek:

We shouldnt have to secure gates, and lay bolders at field entrances just in case some travellers decide that they want to trespass on your property.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Morlar

I am sick of 'progressive liberals' making excuses and blaming everyone else for this kind of behaviour.

There needs to be a change in how this is handled. ie tow all those caravans to the nearest pound, arrest anyone who intereferes and then charge a large release fee.

Then . . divide up the cost of the damage and cleanup to that property and make the people who did it pay before releasing the caravans.

Don't care if you need the army or armed gardaí to get it done - also don't care if the travellers were genuinely homeless in the meantime. They would definitely think twice the next time.

Biggins

Well I am able to say that it looks like the publicity of either description above brought about something to be done.

They moved out this afternoon, the gates were repaired and heavier chains and locks was used on them. Small mess left behind but thats only to be expected I suppose.

jmc19

Members of the travelling community on RTE's "The Frontline" Monday night going on about how they are this, that and the other, respectable people and they wonder why they all get tarred with the same brush with carry on like this.

They should be charged with trespassing and vandalism, their caravans, jeeps and vans impounded. If this was members of the settled community we would be arrested already and awaiting trail :mad:

Why should they be treated any different, they are the same as me and you, live in the same country and are Irish, oh sorry they are different, as your one on The Frontline said "they have traveller blood" :rolleyes:

TommyT

DYLF wrote: »

problem is its private property....
was a similar situation in the old mill in Julianstown last year.

In fairness the Old Mill was full of them when it was open for business. :P

Biggins

jmc19 wrote: »

Members of the travelling community on RTE's "The Frontline" Monday night going on about how they are this, that and the other, respectable people and they wonder why they all get tarred with the same brush with carry on like this.

They should be charged with trespassing and vandalism, their caravans, jeeps and vans impounded. If this was members of the settled community we would be arrested already and awaiting trail :mad:

Why should they be treated any different, they are the same as me and you, live in the same country and are Irish, oh sorry they are different, as your one on The Frontline said "they have traveller blood" :rolleyes:

Seen that programme. There was a number of points made in their favour and I agreed with some of them, some I disagreed. For example, the "Traveller Blood" claim was just something completely as daft as Hitler going on about Germanic blood!
- And as one person in the audience pointed out with details from research carried out over a lengthy period of time, that claim held no substance and was disproved.

But back to the present situation in Drogheda; yes, I totally agree that they should he held equally answerable to the laws of the land.
If you trespass, you lose that which aided/came with you as your breaking the law, your very trespassing property!
For damage done and sites ruined (the one at the top of Mell had to be closed because they turned it into a mini-warzone in state), they should be held accountable just as much as the rest of us - not allowed just junp into their four by fours and haul their ass and caravans away, escaping prosecution.

As long as this latter action is allowed continue, there is no incentive for them NOT to break the law and their ongoing actions will continue unabated - with little for them to worry about!

kc66

Good letter in todays Independent:

I watched the recent RTE 'Frontline' programme about Travellers with some amusement. The level of self-pitying among this group is really something else.

They choose a life that is dysfunctional, and then blame society for not giving them houses that they don't want.

Imagine the torture of not being allowed to have a horse in your kitchen?

These people need to get real on so many fronts that it is just staggering.

During one scene of Traveller "deprivation" we saw a barefoot child. I am not sure what this was meant to highlight, other than irresponsible parenting.

Outside the same caravan was parked a Volkswagen Touareg 4x4, a premium vehicle costing in the region of €50,000. That would buy a lot of pairs of children's shoes.

My father died less than two months ago; an honest man who worked for 60 years.

When I brought him to A&E last December the drunken Travellers were given priority for superficial self-inflicted problems. A case of "whoever shouts the loudest".

As my father had had a stroke, he was left in a corner. He died of MRSA, no doubt due in no small part to this.

Since my father died, I have been plagued.

I have an old car outside of the house, and every second day Travellers are calling with the line: "Are you selling the car, boss?"

Added to this are the items left in my letterbox or on the doorstep in a bid to see if I am staying in the house. It is commonplace around here for Travellers to ransack houses when people die -- they spend so much of their lives watching people (instead of working) that they can see a gap in the routine and an opportunity to rob.

Maybe I should say that "robbing people is an important part of the Traveller culture"?

Will that keep the do-gooders who helped get us into this mess (but who don't have to live with it) happy? I had better keep my address private, lest I be accused of inciting realism.

Travellers are stuck between the dysfunctional lives they have chosen and modern living, with quite a measure of aimless hate thrown in. Travellers will progress when they decide to do so.

NAME AND ADDRESS SUPPLIED

calex71

Find it hard to disagree with that, yet the PC brigade would have a field day with it

TO_ARTHUR!

Biggins wrote: »

For example, the "Traveller Blood" claim was just something completely as daft as Hitler going on about Germanic blood!
- And as one person in the audience pointed out with details from research carried out over a lengthy period of time, that claim held no substance and was disproved.

The blood thing may be going a bit far but it is fact that travellers are a seperate ethnic group to most of Ireland.

locum-motion

TO_ARTHUR! wrote: »

The blood thing may be going a bit far but it is fact that travellers are a seperate ethnic group to most of Ireland.

Bull5hit!

Irish law has 9 separate grounds upon which it is illegal to discriminate against a person. "Ethnicity/Race" is one of them. "Membership of the Travelling Community" is another, separate one (it's 9th on the list).
If Travellers were a separate ethnic group, then they'd already be covered under the "Ethnicity/Race" one, there'd be no need for the 9th one and therefore there would only be 8.

TO_ARTHUR!

locum-motion wrote: »

Bull5hit!

Irish law has 9 separate grounds upon which it is illegal to discriminate against a person. "Ethnicity/Race" is one of them. "Membership of the Travelling Community" is another, separate one (it's 9th on the list).
If Travellers were a separate ethnic group, then they'd already be covered under the "Ethnicity/Race" one, there'd be no need for the 9th one and therefore there would only be 8.

Locum-motion,

No need for that type of language, please!

Now, just because Irish law says something does not make it right, such as the present and many former governments unwillingness to pursue people from the northern troubles that commited crimes/ attrocities before a certain date that reside in the Republic and this is in law. Also, I believe that up until recently, it was in law that employers were not required to pay women who worked for them an equal wage as they would to men.

According to Giddens who wrote the book on sociology, and most sociologists, ethnicity is "Cultural values and norms which distinguish the members of a given group from others. An ethnic group is one whose members share a distinct awareness of a common cultural identity, separating them from other groups around them. In virtually all societies ethnic differences are associated with variations in power and material wealth. Where ethnic differences are also regarded as racial, such divisions are sometimes especially pronounced." He said also that "Different characteristics may serve to distinguish ethnic groups from one another, but the most usual are language, history, ancestry, religion and styles of dress or adornment."

I believe this would cover the travelling community as they are a people with their own language, which is called shealta, and they have a separate history to the rest of us in that they arrived on this island at a different time to anyone who can call claim descent of the scandinavians, saxons and most of the celtic population.

TommyT

99.9% of Travellers get the rest of them a bad name.

positron

I wouldn't think a different ethnicity should give anyone immunity from the laws of the land. Surely we won't allow Muslim immigrants from certain parts of the world to conduct 'honor killings' here in Ireland because of their ethnicity?

locum-motion

TO_ARTHUR! wrote: »

No need for that type of language, please!

Get off your high horse! If you had more than 17 posts here you'd know that the type of self-censored language I used is perfectly acceptable in most Boards.ie fora.

TO_ARTHUR! wrote: »

Now, just because Irish law says something does not make it right...

Ethically, morally? Maybe not.
However, what the law says is FACT.
Try arguing otherwise in court, you won't get very far. It doesn't matter how patently ridiculous it may be, the fact remains that what the law says is a fact and that's it.
As an example (albeit a silly one), let's just pretend that there's a law that says "2+2=5", and you went to court to claim it was 4, you'd lose.
If the law says that "a zebra has horizontal stripes", and you try to argue they are vertical, you'd lose.
If the law (in the form of the courts) finds a person Not Guilty of murder, then they're not guilty even if they killed the victim at half time in the All Ireland final in the centre of the pitch at Croke Park.

If the law doesn't say that Travellers are a different ethnicity, then they're not.

TO_ARTHUR!

locum-motion wrote: »

Get off your high horse! If you had more than 17 posts here you'd know that the type of self-censored language I used is perfectly acceptable in most Boards.ie fora.
Try arguing otherwise in court, you won't get very far.
If the law doesn't say that Travellers are a different ethnicity, then they're not.

Don't lower yourself with the use of bad language regardless of whether you censored it or not, I'm presuming you're an adult.

Number of posts has nothing to do with it.
Don't be acting like an aristocrat of the boards, or whatever, just because the internet is the only place that gives you a voice.

Don't be so Ireland-centric.

Plus, we're not in a courtroom, I was only saying what the foremost scholars in the study of peoples say on the subject.
I was not defending the actions of the travellers in the bridgeford.

Mr Magnolia

Folks, if this can't be discussed in a civil manner then I'll close it.

Back on topic please.

locum-motion

TO_ARTHUR! wrote: »

Don't lower yourself with the use of bad language regardless of whether you censored it or not, I'm presuming you're an adult.

Number of posts has nothing to do with it.
Don't be acting like an aristocrat of the boards, or whatever, just because the internet is the only place that gives you a voice.

Don't be so Ireland-centric.

Plus, we're not in a courtroom, I was only saying what the foremost scholars in the study of peoples say on the subject.
I was not defending the actions of the travellers in the bridgeford.

Fine, since you're not interested in how the law defines ethnic, how about the Oxford English Dictionary?

a[djective]
...
2.a. Pertaining to race; peculiar to a race or nation; ethnological. Also, pertaining to or having common racial, cultural, religious, or linguistic characteristics, esp. designating a racial or other group within a larger system; hence (U.S. colloq.), foreign, exotic.
b ethnic minority (group), a group of people differentiated from the rest of the community by racial origins or cultural background, and usu. claiming or enjoying official recognition of their group identity. Also attrib.
n[oun]
...
3 A member of an ethnic group or minority. orig. U.S.
—Oxford English Dictionary "ethnic, a. and n."

Yes, it mentions the cultural stuff you mentioned, but the first part of the definition is race. Travellers are not a different race. They're a subset of Irish people with certain cultural differences from the rest of us.

The reason I mentioned post count is because you're obviously fairly new here, so might not be familiar with what is considered normal round here. Disguised versions of four letter words are commonplace and no one bats an eyelid usually. If you're going to pull up everyone that uses them, you'll wear out your keyboard. And I've got no problem with using my voice in other, non-internet locations either, but thanks for your concern.

Biggins

Back on topic, its just a general disgrace that the law is being applied unequally.
Beside the non-incentive to stay within the law, its disparaging to the rest of us that are treated harsher if we even think of putting a toe an inch across someone elses property, never mind damaging it.

When is the law in this land going to be applied to all and not just to some!

irishconvert

positron wrote: »

I wouldn't think a different ethnicity should give anyone immunity from the laws of the land. Surely we won't allow Muslim immigrants from certain parts of the world to conduct 'honor killings' here in Ireland because of their ethnicity?

Please get your facts right before you post nonsense like that. Honour killings are 100% against Islamic teaching as is all murder of innocent people.

positron

irishconvert wrote: »

Please get your facts right before you post nonsense like that. Honour killings are 100% against Islamic teaching as is all murder of innocent people.

Of course it is against Islamic teachings and I know very well what drives it. May be I should have said just 'people originally from some part of the world who now lives in Ireland' rather than 'Muslim immigrants', but my point still stands, if you care to notice? And I could change the example of honour killings to say slapping your wife or having four wifes or young men ceremoniously whipping young girls (like they do on some African tribes) etc?

borderlinemeath

They haven't gone too far, there's a load of caravans now on the old Europa Hotel site on the Dublin Rd. What's the bets they're the same lot?

And again, private property albeit unused.

R.O.R

borderlinemeath wrote: »

They haven't gone too far, there's a load of caravans now on the old Europa Hotel site on the Dublin Rd. What's the bets they're the same lot?

And again, private property albeit unused.

It was pretty well fenced off, but maybe not that securely. It would have taken moving the fences that were there as they couldn't just have driven on to the site.

To be honest, I'm not sure they can make that site anymore of an eyesore than it already is.

DYLF

nah they wouldnt have had to move the fences.. theres a bit beside the roundabout that they would only have need to drive over the kerb.