Stag hunting bill vote

Grizzly 45

IOW CRACKPOT THEORY with no scientifc proof behind it.
I put this in the "what about the children?" typestatement of discussion killer
Also it is falsely used as I did not compare them contiously to the Nazis ,but once and to the disipline of one who was skilled in propaganda.Do READ MY posts as well,thank you.But if it makes you feel any more comfortable we can compare them to to Leon Trotsky??As his methods were pretty much the same??
And you still didnt counter my assertion regarding the simmilarity of propaganda methods??

Sparks

/facepalm
Thread closed.

Sparks

Re-opening after an overnight cooldown period.
We all know how much this vote got under everyone's fingernails with a pair of pliers, but take a breath before posting please folks.

Moving on, this from the Irish Times today:

McDaid threatened to vote against Government
MARY MINIHAN

A THREAT by Donegal TD Jim McDaid to vote against the Government earlier this week has further highlighted the precariousness of the Coalition’s majority.

Dr McDaid wrote to Independent TD Jackie Healy-Rae on Tuesday, ahead of a close Dáil vote on legislation to ban stag hunting, saying he would also oppose the Wildlife Amendment Bill.

“It is my intention to join you, not because I oppose the Bill, but because I have been calling for a general election for over a year now,” Dr McDaid said in an e-mail to Mr Healy-Rae.

“Should this Bill fail, the agreement between Fianna Fáil and the Greens will result in the aforementioned consequence.”

In the event, Dr McDaid, who is without the Fianna Fáil whip, backed the Government.

Meanwhile, Fianna Fáil TD for Cork South West Christy O’Sullivan has told Taoiseach Brian Cowen he voted for the legislation against his judgment.

Tipperary South TD Mattie McGrath’s vote against the Government, and the defections of previously loyal Independents Mr Healy-Rae and Michael Lowry resulted in the Bill passing by just 75 votes to 72. If Mr McDaid and Mr O’Sullivan had voted against the Bill, the Government would have been defeated by a vote.

Mr O’Sullivan, in a letter to Mr Cowen on Thursday, said: “I supported the Wildlife Amendment Bill against my better judgement, but also mindful of the fact it was part of the programme for government and had the potential of bringing down the Government.”

He said Fianna Fáil had “honoured our commitment” and he expected Mr Gormley to “honour his commitment” to exempt clubs registered with the Hunting Association of Ireland from the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill.

Mr O’Sullivan and Mr McGrath abstained in a vote on the legislation to ban stag hunting, but while Mr McGrath voted against the Government in the final vote, Mr O’Sullivan sided with the Coalition.

Mr McGrath later became the sixth member of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party to lose the whip since the last election.

Dr McDaid, who represents Donegal North East, was expelled from the parliamentary party when he abstained in a vote on the cervical cancer vaccination programme in November 2008.

Dr Jimmy Devins and Eamon Scanlon resigned from the parliamentary party in August 2008 after the loss of cancer services in their Sligo-North Leitrim constituency but, like Dr McDaid, they remain party members and consistently vote with the Government.

Joe Behan left Fianna Fáil and became an Independent TD over 2008 budget cuts. Senator Denis O’Donovan, from Bantry, Co Cork, lost the whip last week after abstaining in a Seanad vote on the Dog Breeding Establishment Bill.

While Mr Healy-Rae and Mr Lowry, who have backed the Government since 2007, voted against the Bill to ban stag hunting, Independents Finian McGrath and Maureen O’Sullivan had previously signalled their intention to vote for the ban.

Sparks

Allow me to be more specific.
When I say "everyone take a breath before posting", during that breath you should be saying to yourself "y'know, this law is a bad one, but it doesn't really compare to the Holocaust, so I won't post that comparison, I'll find another".
Next comparison of the Greens to the Nazis earns an infraction, to be followed by days off if it continues.

Feck's sake people, it's a public forum.

It wasn't me!

Now, it's not something I'm aware of, but is it common for so many TDs and senators to lose the party whip in such a period? Just that it's becoming a pretty common thing to hear, and what does it signify other than that the government isn't particularly cohesive?

Grizzly 45

Doesnt say much for our "democratic" govt or society either.`
Vote this way or you will be punished....Eventhough it is for voting that everyone must ram a sharp stick into their right eye on Wednesday at 3oclock.:rolleyes: Sounds more like Stalinist Russia..
Concious of an individual TD or their principles obviously dont count.But then again they obviously dont have any in the first place,as otherwise they would have taken a suspension or whatever "whipping" there is and defeated this.

Sparks

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Now, it's not something I'm aware of, but is it common for so many TDs and senators to lose the party whip in such a period? Just that it's becoming a pretty common thing to hear, and what does it signify other than that the government isn't particularly cohesive?

It's really unusual, and that's why we're getting so much airtime. Half of Pat Kenny yesterday was on this point (while mentioning the actual content of the bill as little as was humanly possible).

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Vote this way or you will be punished.

Well, yes. Since your election was paid for by party funds, since you used the party's name to get your cushy job as a TD, since you're allegedly of the same ideology and belief as the party you voluntarily joined with full knowledge of the whip system, you're expected to vote as the party votes.
And if you don't, you lose the benefits of being in the party (the money, the assistance, the support for your policies, etc).

It might not sound fantastic, but that's political parties in a representative democracy for you...

Grizzly 45

Maybe because we really NEVER have lived under a totalitarian dictatorship in Ireland ,while the rest of europe has under some stage in the last century,is why they got rid of it from their systems?

Sparks

Grizzly, every parlimentary system has a party whip system.

Grizzly 45

Germany doesnt,for obvious reasons,and certainly NOT on issues of conciousness.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Germany doesnt,for obvious reasons,and certainly NOT on issues of conciousness.

Yes, they do.

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, they do.

Stag hunting??

Or European politics?

I is confused

Grizzly 45

But still can opt out on issues of conciousness.Always can and always will.We dont fancy another Godwin law subject ruling us.Same reason the german president has less power than even our one.
Well anyway,it just goes to show that our lot are just as weak willed and talk as much BS about "principles" as the rest of them.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well anyway,it just goes to show that our lot are just as weak willed and talk as much BS about "principles" as the rest of them.

So did the last twenty-odd years of their actions.
Yet still they got voted in the last time. There's a saying about how people deserve the government they elect...

Grizzly 45

Indupidly....Isnt it about time for "change" here?:rolleyes:
Trouble is the slogan would read "could we be botherd to do it?" here.

Sparks

How would you do it?
Can't be done from out here, there's no legal mechanism for it.
Doing it from inside would require turkeys to vote for christmas.

me_right_one

Rise should form a political party for the next GE. With 28000 members in the NARGC, and the majority of the rest of rural Ireland behind them, they would skate in. They could repeal this stag hunting bill, and relax gun laws. And order Eirgrid to put the pylons underground! 3 birds with one political party!

Grizzly 45

Apart from "civil disobeidence" and by that I dont mean break out the Molotovs and pitchforks and head to the Dail.Although IMO that is well overdue to happen here,and will happen inevetibly.
Seeing that we cant organise ourselves to drink a lot in St James gate brewery,the only way I think anything can change is either by starting another party[like we really need one now,but it is a rigged game to start one,get it financed,voted in etc.]
The only way for us as citizens to be heard anymore is for us to decide individually what we will do to register our daily protest with the PTB.
Later

To finish this off,it wont get us a new Govt or political party,but it would be enough to tell them we want 3by elections and a general election soonest.Like yesterday!

"Government,if you ignore it.They will go away." Bumper sticker seen recently

Grizzly 45

me_right_one wrote: »

Rise should form a political party for the next GE. With 28000 members in the NARGC, and the majority of the rest of rural Ireland behind them, they would skate in. They could repeal this stag hunting bill, and relax gun laws. And order Eirgrid to put the pylons underground! 3 birds with one political party!

It would need a bigger,broader rural base on issues more important than just the above.Like rural Garda stations closing,the loss of Post offices,small shops etc,rural crime.Most importantly,it has to stay well away from FF !! That is the kiss of death to any political party in Ireland.

me_right_one

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It would need a bigger,broader rural base on issues more important than just the above.Like rural Garda stations closing,the loss of Post offices,small shops etc,rural crime.Most importantly,it has to stay well away from FF !! That is the kiss of death to any political party in Ireland.

Well there ya go, 4 more issues to add to the list! Every political party had to start somewhere!

Grizzly 45

Indeed,however adding that to it will make RISE look like the Irish version of CA.Without the money or manpower.CA is almost looked on as a Tory organisation in the UK.So who will adapt RISE?

Mr Mole

Just read this on the www.NARGC.ie website. It's very strong sentiment. The anger mirrors the feelings of many handgun owners and other sporting firearm owners who were "done" in a similar fashion.

FIANNA FAIL TRAITORS!!!

The revised programme for Government agreed between Fianna Fail and the Green Party will go into the records as one the most shameful deals ever perpetrated on rural people by an Irish Government. It was treachery carried out by a gang of what can now only be described as Fianna Fail traitors to the rural communities who traditionally supported them.
NARGC and its 28,000 club members are unequivocal in our solidarity with all fieldsports in Ireland but especially with the Ward Union Stag Hunt. We want to tell Minister Gormley and Fianna Fail that they are on the brink of being taught a lesson which they will never forget. Gormley's Wildlife Bill, banning the Ward Union Stag Hunt was passed into law on Tuesday, June 29th 2010 but it is Fianna Fail who is to blame and we want to assure them that the revolt from rural Ireland will be their worst nightmare and it is only just starting. The NARGC is not in the business of sacrificing any fieldsport, no matter how small or how large. If we allow one to be banned we will be next because the Green agenda, despite what Gormley says, is to ban all fieldsports.
Today is a day for plain speaking and plain meaning and we speak plainly to all Fianna Fail TD's. When you voted for Gormley's Bill, you damaged us and our way of life. There will be no coming back from that and the Party Whip will be irrelevant for an out of work TD. Let us be clear, sympathetic Fianna Fail backbenchers who tell us they must obey the Party Whip are no use to us. When they tell us that, they are in reality saying they are going to screw us by destroying a part of our way of life and what we value.
We may have lost a battle last Tuesday but the war is very far from over. We will only win it by sending Fianna Fail a clear and unambiguous message - If you pick a fight with one of us, you pick a fight with all of us. A general election will be upon us again before you can say Ward Union Stag Hunt. We may have to suffer Fianna Fail treachery for now, but a day will soon come when they will have to face us on our terms. They have demonstrated they certainly can't face us now. They have been hiding away from the hunting, shooting and fishing people for months now. But they can't hide forever. We urge all rural people to give Fianna Fail TD's and Senators a really good tongue lashing every time you meet one. Call your Fianna Fail TD on the telephone, or write him/her a letter, send an email or better still call personally to his/her clinic and let them know your anger and the damage they have done. If the price of holding on to their seats tomorrow were to be the banning of shooting and fishing, they wouldn't think twice about offering them also.
Don't wait - act today.

Sparks

Just moved this into here Mr.Mole, to keep the topic together.

Sparks

Not sure if this is just poor research or something more trolllike from RTE news:

Dog Breeding Bill protest cancelled
Wednesday, 7 July 2010 20:15
A demonstration outside the Dáil tomorrow by the Rural Initiative for the Social Economy, the group which has been opposing aspects of the government's Dog Breeding Bill, has been cancelled.

Representatives of RISE, along with another group, met the Taoiseach today.

It is understood considerable progress was made on amendments relating to hunting dogs, which was the outstanding area of contention.

The Irish Greyhound Board has already welcomed changes in the provisions relating to their sector.

It is expected two Fianna Fáil backbenchers with reservations about the Bill will now support it when it is put to a vote tomorrow.

(emphasis is mine)

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

Not sure if this is just poor research or something more trolllike from RTE news:

(emphasis is mine)

I got same message on FB

cavan shooter

same message on facebook apparently RISE met with the "Chief Chip" and the Taoiseach, now that is interesting I wouldnt have said that cowen would have got involved

round tower huntsman

well done RISE. the dog breeding bill was a bigger concern to all hunting hound men then the ward issue.
this is the end of gormleys ramblings in the countryside.
onward and upwards now to the season ahead:D

Birdnuts

Mr Mole wrote: »

Just read this on the www.NARGC.ie website. It's very strong sentiment. The anger mirrors the feelings of many handgun owners and other sporting firearm owners who were "done" in a similar fashion.

FIANNA FAIL TRAITORS!!!

The revised programme for Government agreed between Fianna Fail and the Green Party will go into the records as one the most shameful deals ever perpetrated on rural people by an Irish Government. It was treachery carried out by a gang of what can now only be described as Fianna Fail traitors to the rural communities who traditionally supported them.
NARGC and its 28,000 club members are unequivocal in our solidarity with all fieldsports in Ireland but especially with the Ward Union Stag Hunt. We want to tell Minister Gormley and Fianna Fail that they are on the brink of being taught a lesson which they will never forget. Gormley's Wildlife Bill, banning the Ward Union Stag Hunt was passed into law on Tuesday, June 29th 2010 but it is Fianna Fail who is to blame and we want to assure them that the revolt from rural Ireland will be their worst nightmare and it is only just starting. The NARGC is not in the business of sacrificing any fieldsport, no matter how small or how large. If we allow one to be banned we will be next because the Green agenda, despite what Gormley says, is to ban all fieldsports.
Today is a day for plain speaking and plain meaning and we speak plainly to all Fianna Fail TD's. When you voted for Gormley's Bill, you damaged us and our way of life. There will be no coming back from that and the Party Whip will be irrelevant for an out of work TD. Let us be clear, sympathetic Fianna Fail backbenchers who tell us they must obey the Party Whip are no use to us. When they tell us that, they are in reality saying they are going to screw us by destroying a part of our way of life and what we value.
We may have lost a battle last Tuesday but the war is very far from over. We will only win it by sending Fianna Fail a clear and unambiguous message - If you pick a fight with one of us, you pick a fight with all of us. A general election will be upon us again before you can say Ward Union Stag Hunt. We may have to suffer Fianna Fail treachery for now, but a day will soon come when they will have to face us on our terms. They have demonstrated they certainly can't face us now. They have been hiding away from the hunting, shooting and fishing people for months now. But they can't hide forever. We urge all rural people to give Fianna Fail TD's and Senators a really good tongue lashing every time you meet one. Call your Fianna Fail TD on the telephone, or write him/her a letter, send an email or better still call personally to his/her clinic and let them know your anger and the damage they have done. If the price of holding on to their seats tomorrow were to be the banning of shooting and fishing, they wouldn't think twice about offering them also.
Don't wait - act today.

I fully agree FF are traitors and have done immense damage to the country for generations to come - but not for the silly reasons in the above piece which is hysterical and totally over the top. There are many, many reasons to despise Bertie, Biffo et al but banning one Stag hunt is hardly in the same league as Scama, Anglo Irish, criminal mismangement of the economy, corruption in state agencies etc.

Secondly the idea that hunting and Angling is under some sort of threat is laughable in the extreme for too many reasons to mention here.


PS: It might be worth noting that the averge FF supporter is now rural, over 65 and is likely to be engaged in agriculture. As the old saying goes "you get the government you deserve":rolleyes:

BryanL

Birdnuts wrote: »

Secondly the idea that hunting and Angling is under some sort of threat is laughable in the extreme for too many reasons to mention here.

fishing for eels? banned by this government
stag hunting ? banned by this government
hand guns? banned by this government
Licence to hunt hares for first 2 weeks in March? banned by this government

licences to course? delayed every year by this government
Derogations to shoot? delayed every year by this government


Laughable? Only if your Trolling

round tower huntsman

bryan stop, the greens dont want to ban hunting. only the paronoind would think that. thats why its so silly for people like RISE to start up. hunters have no need for it. the greens are our friends.

Feargal as Luimneach

BryanL wrote: »

fishing for eels? banned by this government
stag hunting ? banned by this government
hand guns? banned by this government
Licence to hunt hares for first 2 weeks in March? banned by this government

licences to course? delayed every year by this government
Derogations to shoot? delayed every year by this government


Laughable? Only if your Trolling

http://www.cfb.ie/fishing_net/eels.htm
Eels are in serious decline! Why shouldn't there be a ban?

Sparks

round tower huntsman wrote: »

the greens are our friends.

While I think most of the anti-green stuff on here is a bit simplistic at best, it's not utterly wrong either. Fact is, the green movement is something good hunters* would agree with by default; but the Irish green party is an entirely different species, and their policies are neither well-informed nor fully considered. And as they are politicians, they are by definition nobody's friend. Unless you mean the kind of friend that'll disown and condemn you if the demographics say they'd get 2% more votes come election day for doing so.



*and by good hunters I mean the kind that hunt for the pot and who help out with the poults during the year and the rest of the work instead of just turning up for the shooting at the end. You guys know who I mean.

round tower huntsman

"the greens" i refer too a the slimy bunch of political snakes in leinster house...you know the bunch that stood shoulder to shoulder with the biggest snake of them all bertie, the bunch that have sold out all their genuine green principals in return for power,the bunch that would rather waste time trying to hurt countrysports any way they can instead of getting people back to work, the bunch that every genuine eco minded green has left in disgusted etc etc etc....you know that bunch?

[MOD]
This is Round Tower Huntsman being sarcastic. Now get over it and get back to the topic at hand please. There's no need for a microscopic dissection of the in's and outs of sarcasm here. I've deleted several posts, yet it continues after a warning...

Back to the point please.
[/MOD]

BryanL

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

http://www.cfb.ie/fishing_net/eels.htm
Eels are in serious decline! Why shouldn't there be a ban?

All fish are in serious decline. What's the Greens solution?

johngalway

Let's get back to the point of the thread folks.

Feargal as Luimneach

BryanL wrote: »

All fish are in serious decline. What's the Greens solution?

EEls are on the Verge of extinction! Do you think it's a good idea to fish for them? I'm not a member of the Greens and I don't know what their policy is.

CJhaughey

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

EEls are on the Verge of extinction! Do you think it's a good idea to fish for them? I'm not a member of the Greens and I don't know what their policy is.

They are not on the verge of extinction, their numbers have reduced but we are the ONLY country that has banned eel fishing in the EU.
Spain, UK, even Germany still allow limited eel fishing.
Here:rolleyes:

Feargal as Luimneach

CJhaughey wrote: »

They are not on the verge of extinction, their numbers have reduced but we are the ONLY country that has banned eel fishing in the EU.
Spain, UK, even Germany still allow limited eel fishing.
Here:rolleyes:

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/eels-face-extinction-as-numbers-drop-by-99-per-cent-in-20-years-737385.html
http://blogs.nationalgeographic.com/blogs/news/chiefeditor/2009/06/european-eel-fishing-banned-in-norway.html
:rolleyes:

CJhaughey

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/eels-face-extinction-as-numbers-drop-by-99-per-cent-in-20-years-737385.html
http://blogs.nationalgeographic.com/blogs/news/chiefeditor/2009/06/european-eel-fishing-banned-in-norway.html
:rolleyes:

Those articles are talking about the UK and Norway not Ireland.
Like I said we are the only country in the EU to have banned ALL types of eel fishing for the next 90 years.
The 2008 report which preceded the closure said that recovery would be only possible if all EU states closed their fisheries as well, and guess what... None of them did except good ol Ireland.
Job well done, put yet more people on the dole as long as we are seen to be doing the right thing.

Feargal as Luimneach

CJhaughey wrote: »

Those articles are talking about the UK and Norway not Ireland.
Like I said we are the only country in the EU to have banned ALL types of eel fishing for the next 90 years.
The 2008 report which preceded the closure said that recovery would be only possible if all EU states closed their fisheries as well, and guess what... None of them did except good ol Ireland.
Job well done, put yet more people on the dole as long as we are seen to be doing the right thing.

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/205468-Northern-Ireland-eels-suffer-mysterious-decline
Is Northern Ireland close enough??

CJhaughey

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/205468-Northern-Ireland-eels-suffer-mysterious-decline
Is Northern Ireland close enough??

Nope.
This is the Republic of Ireland
The North still hasn't banned eel fishing.
Where are the stock assessment reports for the Republic?
The fact that more eels are killed in the hydropower schemes around the country than by fishing mortality have a lot to do with it.
The ESB has a lot more pull than a few commercial eel fishermen.

Feargal as Luimneach

CJhaughey wrote: »

Nope.
This is the Republic of Ireland
The North still hasn't banned eel fishing.
Where are the stock assessment reports for the Republic?
The fact that more eels are killed in the hydropower schemes around the country than by fishing mortality have a lot to do with it.
The ESB has a lot more pull than a few commercial eel fishermen.

http://www.nuigalway.ie/about-us/news-and-events/news.php?p_id=4

CJhaughey

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

http://www.nuigalway.ie/about-us/news-and-events/news.php?p_id=4

Jebus, if thats the most current and comprehensive stock report available then I think scientists must be the endangered species:D

Seriously I know that stocks are reduced but my point is that we are the only EU member state to ban eel fishing entirely. And on less than stellar information. Did you read the 2008 Eel report from the CFB (now Inland Fisheries Ireland)?
It makes no sense to deny Irish fishermen when no-one else is doing diddly squat.

Feargal as Luimneach

CJhaughey wrote: »

Jebus, if thats the most current and comprehensive stock report available then I think scientists must be the endangered species:D

Seriously I know that stocks are reduced but my point is that we are the only EU member state to ban eel fishing entirely. And on less than stellar information. Did you read the 2008 Eel report from the CFB (now Inland Fisheries Ireland)?
It makes no sense to deny Irish fishermen when no-one else is doing diddly squat.

Yip you're right, Fishermen should be allowed to fish them till their extinction. If the ESB don't do anything to stop their slaughter, everybody else should carry on.

terminator2

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

http://www.nuigalway.ie/about-us/news-and-events/news.php?p_id=4

no better government than ours to give money for more research into the decline of our eel stocks...............soon we wont be able to afford jacks roll but we can afford millions to fund some professors research......:rolleyes:

Tackleberrywho

johngalway wrote: »

Let's get back to the point of the thread folks.

John I think the lads are not listening to ya! All the rain has them thinking of fishing

Grizzly 45

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Yip you're right, Fishermen should be allowed to fish them till their extinction. If the ESB don't do anything to stop their slaughter, everybody else should carry on.

Proper order that they should be doing somthing!! Seeing they were granted sweeping powers to monoplolise and mismanage hydro electric power on every river lake stream puddle and ditch in the 26 counties along with all fishing rights and conservation under the Shannon hydroelectric powers act.192?
Funnily enough the only commerical monoploy for eel fishing in Ireland is the ESB themselves.Maybe a case of removing the railway sleeper from ones eye???

johngalway

This race seems to be run.