Why Do The Green Party Attract Such Animosity?

imme

I`m not posting this thread for people to post silly replies, thanks;).

I want to ask the question as to why The Green Party attracts such animosity. Many times when there is a Green related thread on here in particular there is a barrage of hatred and animosity that`s almost disturbing.

Scofflaw

imme wrote: »

I`m not posting this thread for people to post silly replies, thanks;).

I want to ask the question as to why The Green Party attracts such animosity. Many times when there is a Green related thread on here in particular there is a barrage of hatred and animosity that`s almost disturbing.

I'm often tempted by the view that a lot of people know that you can't just pollute the environment, but find it hard to do anything they consider meaningful about it. The result is a somewhat tender conscience that reacts badly to people pointing out they're not doing anything meaningful.

Then there's people who simply don't get that point, and can't see any use to all this environmental hoo-ha. In Ireland, we still have a strong strand of belief that "idle" land is bad land - that bogs should be burned or forested or used for something...anything, really - that a motorway or a housing development is always a good thing, and represents progress away from a benighted past. To those people, Greens are simply a bunch of idiots who get in the way of progress because they're sad hippies - this includes most of the Irish political class, as far as I can see, and much of rural Ireland.

Then there's those of a libertarian or free-market liberal bent for whom the environment is a bit of a doctrinal problem. A lot of libertarians are environmentally aware, but to do something about most environmental issues requires regulation rather than leaving it to the market - and that's anathema.

Then there's those who voted Greens as an ABFF party, only to see them go into government with Fianna Fáil, and the McKenna-ite wing of the Greens, whose reaction to the Greens dropping some of their loonier policy commitments was the predictable response to 'splitters'. To be fair, I'm using my definition of 'loony' there, which will necessarily cover commitments felt to be perfectly reasonable by some.

Finally, there are those who believed that the Greens would genuinely be able to behave in an Irish government coalition in the way that they claimed they would behave when there seemed no risk whatsoever of them doing so.

There are, naturally, people who have completely different reasons - possibly being simply enraged by the colour green - and those for whom a couple of the reasons hold. After all, 95% of the country wouldn't vote for them.

Also, it's only fair to point that I'm a regular Green voter (but not a party member, and have no contact with anyone I know to be a member of the party!), but one who doesn't feel even slightly 'betrayed' or 'let down' by the Green Party - probably because I had quite low expectations of them in the first place. They remain, for me, the rather imperfect combination of care for the environment, political naivety, unrealistic expectations, questionable scientific credentials, pointless opposition, and downright idiocy that I've always voted for on the basis that no other Irish party sees the environment as anything other than a place to dump rubbish and build things. As long as that remains the case, I'll probably go on voting for them.

cordially,
Scofflaw

IrishTonyO

Well I for one, voted Green last election as I was told by Mr Sargant that he would not lead his party into coalition with Fianna Fail, and that is one of the reasons I voted for them. I did not take it to mean he would resign as leader and take up a cabinet post with the Greens in government with fianna Fail.
Also they have sold out on all or the majority of their principles merely to cling onto power. You only have to listen to GoGo Gogarty giving out non-stop about Fianna Fail and then voting with them and keeping them in power. Hypocrisy of the highest order. The Greens want it all ways, they want to condemn Fianna Fail yet they keep them in power.

Then the whole thing about changing cabinet ministers half way through government, such a good idea, that they did not even inform all of their parliamentary party never mind ordinary members of the party or the general public. Well if it was such a good idea and it was always their intention why did they not let us know?

I for one feel lied to and betrayed by them and know I will never vote for them again as they have broken any trust I held for them. Selling your soul for power, might make you powerful, but it means you stand for nothing, and are not to be trusted. I truly believe they will be wiped out at the next election, and they have no one to blame but themselves. They might have fooled me once but they will never get the chance to do it again. And they will have set back the 'Green' agenda years, as people now do not believe them or trust them.

nesf

I think a lot of it comes from people not being able to get over two things. a) That a junior coalition partner needs to swallow a lot of the senior partner's policy to get anything implemented and b) that the goal of any party is to get into power.

The ABFF crowd will always hate the Greens, probably for quite a long time which will hurt the party, but then that's to be expected. As a cynic I see nothing wrong with what they did, but some people are more excitable and so on.

IrishTonyO

nesf wrote: »

I think a lot of it comes from people not being able to get over two things. a) That a junior coalition partner needs to swallow a lot of the senior partner's policy to get anything implemented and b) that the goal of any party is to get into power.

The ABFF crowd will always hate the Greens, probably for quite a long time which will hurt the party, but then that's to be expected. As a cynic I see nothing wrong with what they did, but some people are more excitable and so on.

I can see where you are coming from, however I have to say I don't really agree.

The Green party received a lot of votes from, as you say, ABFF people, as they were lead to believe they would not go into coalition with FF. Then after receiving these votes that put them into a positon where they could go into coalition with FF, they promptly did so.

If it was in any other area other than politics, they could be done for 'breach of contract' or 'false advertising'. It does seem strange that we can hold a corner shop to a higher standard of honesty and principles, than we can a political party. Especially considering the impact a political party can have in all of our lives.

Would you or anyone enter into a contract anywhere else, where the other party could not only change the terms of the contract without notice, but do the exact opposite to what was in the contract?

I can understand that parties have to make compromises in a coalition, but not compromises that basically negate the reason they were elected in the first place. It's a bit like a party or person being elected on a tax cutting ticket and then immediately increasing taxes.

That is my main reason for my dislike of the Greens, I feel my vote last time was gained under false pretences and was basically wasted. And I have to even point out a friend of mine is a Green councillor, and he, well I won't say feels as strong as I do about this, but feels very bad about the way the Greens went into power

nesf

IrishTonyO wrote: »

I can see where you are coming from, however I have to say I don't really agree.

The Green party received a lot of votes from, as you say, ABFF people, as they were lead to believe they would not go into coalition with FF. Then after receiving these votes that put them into a positon where they could go into coalition with FF, they promptly did so.

If it was in any other area other than politics, they could be done for 'breach of contract' or 'false advertising'. It does seem strange that we can hold a corner shop to a higher standard of honesty and principles, than we can a political party. Especially considering the impact a political party can have in all of our lives.

Would you or anyone enter into a contract anywhere else, where the other party could not only change the terms of the contract without notice, but do the exact opposite to what was in the contract?

I can understand that parties have to make compromises in a coalition, but not compromises that basically negate the reason they were elected in the first place. It's a bit like a party or person being elected on a tax cutting ticket and then immediately increasing taxes.

That is my main reason for my dislike of the Greens, I feel my vote last time was gained under false pretences and was basically wasted. And I have to even point out a friend of mine is a Green councillor, and he, well I won't say feels as strong as I do about this, but feels very bad about the way the Greens went into power

Two things:

Party proposals pre-election are just aspirations. They are not binding and should not be treated as such by the electorate. They are always couched in assumptions about how the future will be and always open to correction based on how the future turns out.

The other thing is that strictly speaking Sergeant followed his promise to the letter. It might leave a bad taste in the mouth of those who interpreted his remarks more broadly but he did indeed not lead the party into government with FF. I don't think one can accuse him of false advertising, his words were very specific.

IrishTonyO

nesf wrote: »

Two things:

Party proposals pre-election are just aspirations. They are not binding and should not be treated as such by the electorate. They are always couched in assumptions about how the future will be and always open to correction based on how the future turns out.

The other thing is that strictly speaking Sergeant followed his promise to the letter. It might leave a bad taste in the mouth of those who interpreted his remarks more broadly but he did indeed not lead the party into government with FF. I don't think one can accuse him of false advertising, his words were very specific.

That is true, however any reasonably minded person would believe when the leader of a party says he "will not lead his party into coalition" with another, would take that as him speaking for his party, not in a personal context. Unless he made it clear that this was just his personal opinion and not party policy, especially when canvassers and other party candidates were using this line on the doorsteps.

"he doth speak with a forked tongue from all sides of his mouth"

Scofflaw

nesf wrote: »

Two things:

Party proposals pre-election are just aspirations. They are not binding and should not be treated as such by the electorate. They are always couched in assumptions about how the future will be and always open to correction based on how the future turns out.

The other thing is that strictly speaking Sergeant followed his promise to the letter. It might leave a bad taste in the mouth of those who interpreted his remarks more broadly but he did indeed not lead the party into government with FF. I don't think one can accuse him of false advertising, his words were very specific.

A third point would be that I and others like me voted for the Greens to go into government, not for them not to go into government if the only choice was Fianna Fáil. I don't have such a high opinion of Fine Gael or Labour as would warrant making them the only possible coalition choices for the Greens (I was more closely involved with the environmental sector under the Rainbow government, and I don't harbour any illusions about them being an improvement on Fianna Fáil in environmental terms), and I don't vote for the Greens for them to stay on the opposition benches.

I'm sorry for people who voted Green in the belief that not only would they prefer a Fine Gael led coalition, but on the basis that they would enter no other, but mostly I think they were very silly to do so. If all one cares about is that the party one votes for is not going to go into coalition with Fianna Fáil, then for the history of the State to date the only choice has been Fine Gael - but, frankly, Fine Gael don't have a lot more going for them than that.

cordially,
Scofflaw

astrofool

The Greens only salvation (electorally speaking) would have come by bringing down the government once the banking crisis kicked off. I think they would have been accepted back as part of a rainbow coalition in that scenario.

Backing up an enfeebled government to get stag hunting bills through, as Ireland's finances burn, was never going to attact positive backing from the electorate.

I still reckon they should have gone in with a singular public transport improvement aim. Would be the biggest net benefit to the environment they can make.

Rabidlamb

imme wrote: »

I want to ask the question as to why The Green Party attracts such animosity. Many times when there is a Green related thread on here in particular there is a barrage of hatred and animosity that`s almost disturbing.

Cause they are looking to push home their carbon tax & water rates during a time when people are already pinched to the collar.
We had time to indulge green issues when we were flahulach.
Now everyones entrenched they are a luxury we can no longer afford.
They make about as much sense as Dermot Ahern's blasphemy bill.

invinciblePRSTV

The Green Party attracts a lot of animosity also because most of the party's aims & goals (stuff that isn't in the PFG for the most part) is completely at odds with what most Irish people consider what an Irish political party should be offering. The large parties elected reps offer a personal service to their constituents and are an ideological free zone, medical cards, planning permission & pointless dail questions on obscure issues are what the Irish public wants & gets from the large parties, not tougher enforcement of planning laws or animal welfare reform.

Green policies are generally socially liberal & economically left of centre, when this translates into advocating for stricter planning laws, increased public transport spending and polluter pays taxes it leads to disdain from the great car owning, site selling, polluting Irish public.

I think the Greens will do better then expected come the next GE, as in they won't be wiped out completely and will retain a couple of seats. It says a lot about Irish people they'll vote tweedledee & tweedledum repeatedly but blame the Greens for everything!.

uvox

Is this animosity really about the Greens?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0630/1224273622091.html

"I inquired of a psychologist friend what it was that prompted Fianna Fáil TDs to revolt over the proposed ban on stag hunting, while remaining mute when such abominations have been done in their name. I was advised there is a psychological phenomenon known as displacement. It fits. These guys are unconsciously displacing the trauma that their Fianna Fáil leaders have caused them by taking it out on the Green Party. They should get therapy."

Laminations

The Greens lied to (or at best hoodwinked) the electorate before going into power, and while in power they have betrayed many of their principles and possibly sacrificed their long term existence for short term policies. They have become mute on ethical conduct issues. Alligning oneself with FF will taint you.

I'll put it this (ridiculous) way. The Greens were like flour, an excellent ingredient to make a good cake, but they were so desperate to make that cake that they grabbed any other ingredient going (which turned out to be toxic; actually it was known at the time which makes it worse) and created a big pile of sh1t. Nobody likes a big pile of sh1t for a cake (except for the 22% masochists with a fetish for sh1t) and nobody likes flour that has been tainted with sh1t. They need to go cleanse themselves and get back to their principles - which would see them pulling out of government. Gormley and Ryan are used as mouthpieces for FF now, they are assimilated.

Laminations

uvox wrote: »

Is this animosity really about the Greens?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0630/1224273622091.html

"I inquired of a psychologist friend what it was that prompted Fianna Fáil TDs to revolt over the proposed ban on stag hunting, while remaining mute when such abominations have been done in their name. I was advised there is a psychological phenomenon known as displacement. It fits. These guys are unconsciously displacing the trauma that their Fianna Fáil leaders have caused them by taking it out on the Green Party. They should get therapy."

But most of us are not FFers and I dont 'displace' any of the trauma they've caused. My animosity is aimed at FF. The Greens are legitimate collateral because they have chosen to stand alongside FF as a prop

Sleepy

The greens got my vote last time out as I liked some of their policies and thought they'd make an excellent coallition partner for Fine Gael. The decision to go into government with Fianna Fail after a promise not to do so from them beforehand disappointed me but voting confidence in the likes of O' Dea and remaining in government with them for the past year or two despite it being blindly obvious that FF don't have the support of the electorate and their undemocratic actions with regards to the three vacant seats has meant that I won't be considering Green candidates in the next election.

I'm not buying the semantics nesf, avoiding telling an outright lie by choosing your words carefully to give the impression that you're saying one thing whilst your really saying another is is still a lie in my book - it'd be naieve not to expect politicians to do it when they can get away with it but I choose not to let them get away with it where my vote is concerned.

RDM_83 again

First may I point out that in a way I don't feel like there should be a "green" party as it turns environmental issues into a political construct like left or right, (Thankfully we have europe which are pretty decent on most stuff apart from fisheries)

For me its a number of things first the joining FF is a different case to the normal pre-election promises such as roads paved with gold etc as it was easily achievable (also if they don't feel an ethical issue with it they should have left the various anti FF stuff up on their websites)

Voting through NAMA (and not making any issue of the boards lack of transparency) and the Anglo guarentee have cost the Irish economy a some of money that could have paid for a public transport system that would deliver a real reduction in pollution, or it could have kick started the Spirit Of Ireland and the renewable economy).

Voting confidence in Willie O'Dea shows they do not consider that honesty is important for politicians (and the DAIL is all that matters not Twitter etc)

Though I agree with a lot of their proposals and inicatives (what ones there is) they all have the smack of South Dublin City environmentalists (ie electric cars), If they were serious about the Carbon issue turfing cutting would have been up for being banned as soon as they came in as bogs trap more carbon per year than equivalent area of rain forest.

Scofflaw

If they were serious about the Carbon issue turfing cutting would have been up for being banned as soon as they came in as bogs trap more carbon per year than equivalent area of rain forest.

Unfortunately, that's an extremely hot potato. Even the minimal amount of bogs (c. 4-5%) protected by our obligations under the Habitats Directive has been kid-gloved and long-fingered by successive administrations - they were supposed to have been protected a decade ago. Fianna Fáil wouldn't vote through a total ban on turf cutting in a blind fit, any more than Fine Gael would.

A lot of sins of omission are being laid at the Greens door which have never been politically possible in Ireland - and conversely, a lot of sins of commission are requirements of the offices Green TDs hold. I guess that's government, though.

cordially,
Scofflaw

RDM_83 again

Thats my problem with them, they are able to vote with FF for deeply unpopular (though probably necessary) cuts and massively wasteful bailouts (Anglo, though know the reasons are for another thread) the amount of which could have built probably ten gas fuelled power station.
So they ignore the one thing Ireland has in its favour in the Carbon economy the Bogs due to its being a political hot potato and instead look at animal welfare which to my mind isn't really a Green issue anyway.
As the most likely result to happen to their party is implosion due to their lack of backbone with FF I don't see what they have to loose by strongly pushing every issue (including the Corrib/Shell contracts another shameful U-turn) as bringing down the government is as nearly as bad for FF as them however though FF might turn around, the PD's should show that the electorate is less forgiving of minor parties

Scofflaw

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Thats my problem with them, they are able to vote with FF for deeply unpopular (though probably necessary) cuts and massively wasteful bailouts (Anglo, though know the reasons are for another thread) the amount of which could have built probably ten gas fuelled power station.
So they ignore the one thing Ireland has in its favour in the Carbon economy the Bogs due to its being a political hot potato and instead look at animal welfare which to my mind isn't really a Green issue anyway.
As the most likely result to happen to their party is implosion due to their lack of backbone with FF I don't see what they have to loose by strongly pushing every issue (including the Corrib/Shell contracts another shameful U-turn) as bringing down the government is as nearly as bad for FF as them however though FF might turn around, the PD's should show that the electorate is less forgiving of minor parties

The problem is that we don't see how strongly anything is pushed for in Cabinet, or at any other coalition meeting. The only source we really have is public statements, and if the Greens stood up and said "we're pushing strongly for bog protection" they'd achieve no more than if they hadn't said it, which only widens the perception gap between what they profess to want and what they achieve, while annoying their coalition partner.

If the Greens publicly push for something Fianna Fáil backbenchers object to, then the Greens will actually achieve less, because Fianna Fáil does have to listen to its backbenchers to some degree. That's always going to be the case for any small coalition party.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Liam Byrne

I gave the Greens a vote last time out for the following reasons:

1) Their promise not to go into government with FF
2) Their stance on Shannon Airport being used by the USA
3) An understanding that they would implement green issues in a coherent and well-thought-out manner, encouraging responsible use with sustainable approaches, and not just slapping additional taxes on people like myself who were already attempting to be as green as possible; their approaches since - proposing additional taxes left, right and centre, have been sickening

View

No doubt most of the disaffected will vote FF in due course.

Labour have had a variant of this for years - "I really believe in Socialism but as Labour haven't a chance of winning, I'll vote FF instead".

IrishTonyO

View wrote: »

No doubt most of the disaffected will vote FF in due course.

Labour have had a variant of this for years - "I really believe in Socialism but as Labour haven't a chance of winning, I'll vote FF instead".

I doubt it very much

Discodog

I knew little of the Greens as politicians until I met one !. As someone who is involved in animal welfare I was asked to make a submission regarding the Dog Breeding Bill. I met with my local Green senator & we made a follow up appointment to discuss the submission.

Two weeks later he forgot the meeting & when we do meet it is clear that he hasn't even bothered to read the submission. Further communications with senior Greens has convinced me that they are incompetent. I have a good reason to be a Green voter but they have lost me.

Nodin

imme wrote: »

I`m not posting this thread for people to post silly replies, thanks;).

I want to ask the question as to why The Green Party attracts such animosity. Many times when there is a Green related thread on here in particular there is a barrage of hatred and animosity that`s almost disturbing.

For me - Into an election with Americans out of shannon, stop this, start that, and the first bit of policy Gormley came out with in Government was a tax on chewing gum. It's hard not to want to throw rotten fruit there.

privatebob

Well I must admit that this is my first time posting on the politics forum, Its actually my first time looking in at the politics forum! I am, I will admit I am young voter who votes in accordance with the good of the TD's in my area over the previous period.
Due to this I voted Green in the last election. I suppose much the same as a good proportion of people in Ireland.
I ask myself why do the greens attract so much flack! For me there is a few reasons.

Not living up to there promises beforethe election

I believe that their policy decisions show there lack of knowledge of the people who have voted them into the position that they find themselves in now

On a regular basis especially in the public eye, their public representatives who WE as a nation voted for constantly disappoint us by showing lack of knowledge and knowhow to run the nation. I would include John Gormley in this.

Also I believe that there is a tail wagging the dog process in government at the moment. I am not a FF'er but I truly believe that FF would love to see the back of the green party at this stage

And finally the reason that I am enraged by them at the moment! Deputy Gogarthy who a number of months ago proved why he no more deserves to be in a place of public representation! Repeats the process again this week asking the Ceann Comhairle was it permissable to say Bull***t in the dail

I think that if people in his area thought that he would act in such a disgraceful manner while represeting them, they would not have voted for him. I truly believe that he is a total disgrace to his constituients, his party, his family and i would hope himself.
Now if a public representative continues to act in such a manner I would not only suggest, I would urge that he at the general election would not be voted for and never again set foot in the dail.

Are these really the people that we voted for! I ask myself where will they be after the next election?????
I have a fair idea that the answer will be... dead and buried, 1 step forward to government and 20 steps back to Oblivion

The_Minister

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0907/green.html for instance.

They never ruled out coalition with Fianna Fail - ever.

Sargeant was very, very clear during the election that he would not lead the party into government with Fianna Fail, but that he would resign instead, but it was made very clear when questioned that he would be willing to do so if a coalition could not be formed with Fine Gael or Labour.

As much trouble as I have with the Greens, they never, ever ruled out coalition with Fianna Fail, and clarified their positon when asked.

EDIT: Btw Sergeant made that comment the day they voted not to rule out coalition with FF.

Traumadoc

The_Minister wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0907/green.html for instance.

They never ruled out coalition with Fianna Fail - ever.

Sargeant was very, very clear during the election that he would not lead the party into government with Fianna Fail, but that he would resign instead, but it was made very clear when questioned that he would be willing to do so if a coalition could not be formed with Fine Gael or Labour.

As much trouble as I have with the Greens, they never, ever ruled out coalition with Fianna Fail, and clarified their positon when asked.

EDIT: Btw Sergeant made that comment the day they voted not to rule out coalition with FF.

Yes they sure fooled me.

I voted for Gormley because I saw the Planet Bertie speech, and the way he mocked Mcdowell for his support of Bertie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqkoz7hmc1s

from 3.20 on.

The_Minister

Traumadoc wrote: »

Yes they sure fooled me.

I voted for Gormley because I saw the Planet Bertie speech, and the way he mocked Mcdowell for his support of Bertie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqkoz7hmc1s

from 3.20 on.

I remember that speech - doesn't change the fact that they were always clear about their stance on Fianna Fail - "We don't like 'em, we don't want 'em, but we will if we have to".

Traumadoc

Must be my stupidity then. I thought they would never support Bertie Ahern.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/unimpressed-greens-snub-overture-from-fianna-fail-82135.html

oh well , okay

They never ruled out coalition with Fianna Fail - ever.

The leader of the Green Party, Trevor Sargent has said his party would not enter a coalition with Fianna Fáil in its present form.

Speaking on RTÉ Radio's Morning Ireland, Mr Sargent was responding to the reported comments of the Minister for Foreign Affairs.

Dermot Ahern had said he would not rule out the possibility of joining with the Greens in government.

Mr Sargent said the current version of Fianna Fáil could not be a partner for any 'responsible' party.

From .. http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0807/green.html

They did soften their stance later but they also ruled out coaltion with FF before doing so .

Traumdoc mentioned the planetbertie speech and it's lampooning of Mc Dowell

"We want change. Michael McDowell wants things to stay the same. The man who said 'no thanks' to one party government has now become its mainstay. As you know, Michael's popularity is soaring ? with Fianna Fáil voters. It doesn't matter what Bertie says or does, Michael will stick with him. The PD enforcer has become the Tammy Wynette of Irish politics, standing desperately by his man Bertie. Who would have thought it possible that the PDs would call for an end to tribunals enquiring into corruption? Or who would have thought that they would refuse to speak on the findings of the Moriarity Tribunal? Michael has gone native ? more Fianna Fáil than the Fianna Fáilers themselves."

Change a few names here and there and you could almost be talking about John Gormley himself .

I gave the greens a preference once , I won't be doing so again for some time and not really because of what they said during the last election but because of how they've handled themselves in government .

Macha

Civil Partnership Bill just passed by the Dail

I'd like to see someone complaining that there's more important things to worry about on this one.

View

privatebob wrote: »

Due to this I voted Green in the last election.

privatebob wrote: »

Also I believe that there is a tail wagging the dog process in government at the moment. I am not a FF'er but I truly believe that FF would love to see the back of the green party at this stage

Aren't you contradicting yourself there?

If "there is a tail wagging the dog process in government at the moment", then that must mean the Green tail is wagging the FF dog. In which case the Greens must be getting policies implemented, even if some FFers (the ones who didn't read the programme for government) don't like them.

Since you voted Green, that (in itself) shouldn't be a cause for complaint, as I'd imagine that most people who voted Green would prefer to see - where possible - the policies of the Greens implemented rather than those of FF...

View

taconnol wrote: »

Civil Partnership Bill just passed by the Dail

I'd like to see someone complaining that there's more important things to worry about on this one.

There are more important things but that doesn't mean the Oireachtas can't deal with other issues some of the time.

Mind you some people will just want the Oireachtas to have debates about the economic crisis until everyone dies of terminal boredom...

Liam Byrne

The_Minister wrote: »

They never ruled out coalition with Fianna Fail - ever.

News to me. I must have been asleep when they clarified it pre-election.

the article wrote:

But although he refused to rule out participation in a future Fianna Fáil-led government, he said most people, not just his party members, are looking for change.

So if "most people" want change, that's a majority, right ? In a democracy, right ?

Therefore - in Sargent's own description - the Greens subverted democracy from day one to get into power and compounded it by voting in favour of NAMA and the bailouts in order to stay there.

Not to mention voting confidence in a few dodgy con-men along the way.

Scofflaw

Liam Byrne wrote: »

News to me. I must have been asleep when they clarified it pre-election.



So if "most people" want change, that's a majority, right ? In a democracy, right ?

Therefore - in Sargent's own description - the Greens subverted democracy from day one to get into power and compounded it by voting in favour of NAMA and the bailouts in order to stay there.

Not to mention voting confidence in a few dodgy con-men along the way.

What part of that article is unclear, though?

Greens will not rule out any party coalition.

The leader of the Green Party, Trevor Sargent, has said his party will not be ruling out coalition with any party ahead of a General Election.

The party is meeting for a second day in Co Wicklow to consider its strategies for the forthcoming election campaign.

Speaking on RTÉ Radio, Mr Sargent said that most Green Party supporters were opposed to the current Fianna Fáil-led Government

That says - "would prefer any other coalition". No other coalition was possible.

To be fair, I was also under the impression that they'd ruled out coalition with Fianna Fáil. I shall have to upgrade my opinion of them slightly!

cordially,
Scofflaw

jacaranda

I think what makes the Green party seem ridiculous is that, under the pretence of animal welfare, they waste their time banning the ward hunt, when in reality is comes over as petty and will do nothing to improve the welfare of any animal.

If they really wanted to do something for animal welfare, they would have used this time to do something which would actually improve animal welfare, for example to outlaw intensive battery poultry production, which ensures the chickens that many buy in our supermarkets live disgusting lives. Just because intensive chicken production takes place behind closed doors, rather than out in the open, and is not seen by many people is no excuse to ignore it.

hmmm

Rural Ireland perceives the Greens as being the epitome of the sandle-wearing BMW-driving apartment-dwelling ex-hippy living in Dun Laoghaire who has never spent a day on a working farm yet cares passionately about imposing laws on rural Ireland which harken back to a mythical "golden age". The validity of the caricature is irrelevant, the perception is what counts.

If there was an equivalent rural based party in power which imposed laws which city dwellers felt impinged on their way of life you would have the same level of pushback. The Greens have this PR problem and unfortunately for them it makes reasonable debate on their often sensible policies very difficult.

It doesn't help that many of those who are associated with the GP are perceived as poisonous in the country e.g. McKenna. Prime Time last night was a classic example of the problem, where on one side you had the 90 year old salt of the earth type who just wanted some turf for the fire and on the other side of the argument Dr Professor so and so and some bearded chap in a fetching red jumper going on about flowers.

Liam Byrne

hmmm wrote: »

.......it makes reasonable debate on their often sensible policies very difficult.

I don't agree, and I can't let you sneaking that in there as if it were fact go unchallenged.

The vast majority of Green approaches have been to charge more, or tax more.

Instead of building the sensible, sustainable option and then charging (even roughly) the same amount for it, thereby ensuring that it is both acceptable and sustainable) the Greens ensure that anyone wanting to be green is charged more, while people who don't want to be green get away with stuff like dumping on the sides of rural roads in order to avoid the crazy bin charges associated with recycling.

Add in their complete and blatant avoidance of their "polluter pays" idea on some key policies and you have a set of policies that are far from sensible, particularly in a recession.

Meantime they offer no objection to FF ministers using helicopters to go to Kerry while followed by their ministerial car, thereby more than doubling pollution.

No - the Green's sole purpose seems to be to hammer the reasonable people.

dynamick

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Add in their complete and blatant avoidance of their "polluter pays" idea on some key policies

which policies?

Traumadoc

Scofflaw wrote: »

What part of that article is unclear, though?

Clear as mud.

the day before:


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/unimpressed-greens-snub-overture-from-fianna-fail-82135.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0807/green.html

I was fooled by sargent, he got me good.

Liam Byrne

dynamick wrote: »

which policies?

Here's one, anyway :

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/440000-must-buy-septic-tank-licence--gormley-1929083.html

dynamick

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Here's one, anyway :

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/440000-must-buy-septic-tank-licence--gormley-1929083.html

You think it's wrong to tax people who defecate into the local water table?

The EU through the ECJ ordered Ireland to comply with the Waste water directive from the 1970s. We had to pay our own legal costs and most of the ECJ's costs too. Had we not enacted this legislation we would have been fined.

So now, septic tanks will have to be inspected as they are in every other western EU country. Is that a bad thing? What was your alternative? Pay the fines and let people continue to crap in their water supply?

IrishTonyO

Traumadoc wrote: »

Clear as mud.

the day before:


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/unimpressed-greens-snub-overture-from-fianna-fail-82135.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0807/green.html

I was fooled by sargent, he got me good.

The bit I like the best

"Mr Sargent said the current version of Fianna Fáil could not be a partner for any 'responsible' party."

Liam Byrne

dynamick wrote: »

You think it's wrong to tax people who defecate into the local water table?

Yes (on the actual principle, not on your ridiculous twist of the facts :rolleyes:).

But did you even read my post ?

What I said was that their stated objective of "polluter pays" has been abandoned.

I've discussed this elsewhere on boards........if it's a serious pollution problem caused by some who don't maintain their tanks then the €5,000 fines will go a long way to paying for the inspections.

If 200 people were fined in a year, then that's a million quid; that'll pay for a lot of inspections, fining those who are polluting without punishing those who aren't.

My statement that they abandoned the "polluter pays" principle is 100% true and accurate

dynamick wrote: »

So now, septic tanks will have to be inspected as they are in every other western EU country. Is that a bad thing? What was your alternative? Pay the fines and let people continue to crap in their water supply?

Do you seriously believe that people "crap in their water supply" ? :rolleyes:

Anyway, the new water charges will ensure that we're paying for water treatment, so therefore we will also be paying for clean water, separately from the additional taxes on septic tanks.

irishh_bob

the greens are not all bad but they are insufferable PC wooly liberal do-gooders and that gets up most peoples nose

IrishTonyO

There was a good article in The Sunday Tribune last week by Dave Kenny

"Green-caped crusader? More like hooded hypocrite"

http://www.tribune.ie/news/editorial-opinion/article/2010/jun/27/david-kenny-green-caped-crusader-more-like-hooded-/

astrofool

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Yes (on the actual principle, not on your ridiculous twist of the facts :rolleyes:).

But did you even read my post ?

What I said was that their stated objective of "polluter pays" has been abandoned.

I've discussed this elsewhere on boards........if it's a serious pollution problem caused by some who don't maintain their tanks then the €5,000 fines will go a long way to paying for the inspections.

If 200 people were fined in a year, then that's a million quid; that'll pay for a lot of inspections, fining those who are polluting without punishing those who aren't.

My statement that they abandoned the "polluter pays" principle is 100% true and accurate



Do you seriously believe that people "crap in their water supply" ? :rolleyes:

Anyway, the new water charges will ensure that we're paying for water treatment, so therefore we will also be paying for clean water, separately from the additional taxes on septic tanks.

While other green policy implementations are incompetent at best, the septic tank license/fine is long overdue.

The state of the majority of septic tanks in Ireland is absolutely shocking, hopefully the license fee will be used to make sure that each and every one of them is inspected and brought up to standard.

Liam Byrne

astrofool wrote: »

While other green policy implementations are incompetent at best, the septic tank license/fine is long overdue.

The state of the majority of septic tanks in Ireland is absolutely shocking, hopefully the license fee will be used to make sure that each and every one of them is inspected and brought up to standard.

Have you inspected the majority of them already, or something ?

No inspections required at all, so......sure just make a blanket and completely unsupported statement and then fine every rural-dweller.....that'll serve them right for living in the countryside and installing and maintaining their own septic tanks! :rolleyes:

IF you are correct, then fine the majority; at €5,000 each - IF you are correct - then it'll probably pay Anglo's bill.

As I said earlier, the Green's claimed mantra is polluter pays, and they are ignoring this to charge everybody.

That statement stands as 100% true and accurate.

ei.sdraob

Liam Byrne wrote: »

As I said earlier, the Green's claimed mantra is polluter pays, and they are ignoring this to charge everybody.

That statement stands as 100% true and accurate.

I spend almost 5K on a modern treatment plant and then a yearly inspection and maintenance fee of 100-200
I swear if i have to pay some sort of septic tank charge on top of this, grrr


My problem with the Greens is their authoritarianism and their "tax tax tax" approach, and before anyone accuses me of being a capitalist pig again,
I care about the environment and have spend a small fortune of insulation/glazing/heat recovery and solar heating to bring new home to A spec (and no i wasn't able to avail of any grants!) and looking into wind generator now (despite the payback period being extremely long, if any)

I dont think im alone in saying that "the Animosity towards the Greens is their backward approach to solving problems and their down right hypocrisy"

Agent_47

Probably coming into this debate too late but how and ever, I am an advocate of the Polluter (user) pays principle however I do not see Green policy following this through as much as previous Ministers for the Environment have done.

Greens are contentious for their flawed ideals translating into flawed policies.
I have to site the recent end of life tyres fiasco aired on Pr*** Time recently. The polluter paid in this case alright.

In the water charges debate it is currently too cheap for commericial premises to waste thousands of litres of water through leaking pipes and un-metered systems. However Green policy will see residential households metered before tackling commericial entities where large proportions of water are being wasted (for obvious work reasons I cannot elaborate further). DLR Co Co charge as little as 1 euro per 1,000 litres of water approx. There is no incentive to save water at that cost.

Don't get me started on waste policy and planning. I have seen nothing on waste policy since the Greens came in, in fact policy in this area has gone backwards. So much so I am seating on the edge of my seat woundering if the waste company we use will appear on Pr*** Time for illegal dumping (of recyclables).

Planning is a farce, would dearly love to see the national stats on housing estates to be taken into charge, ticking bomb for county councils who gave the go ahead to build build build. See a application nearby for 700 houses lodged with planning, also see an estate nearby with empty first fix houses built 5 years.

Where has the Green focus on jobs for Green economy gone? This is what the man on the street is interested in, not bicycles for inner city commute or stag hunting.

simonj

Well, for a start, a lot of grass roots greens are not at all happy with the executive, Andrew Byrne in particular from what I hear.

There has been a disconnect and a disillusion with the parties support for FF cuts in the wrong places.

Pushing through the turf ban while Shell is alowed to destroy SHAs and other areas of the Mayo environement has been a disaster.

Gogerty is an embarresment, between the Stagg outburst, the floor rollong and the most recent unintellegable gibberish speech debating the banking crisis - jesus, I almost felt sorry for them

T Sergent having to step down, but not leaving his seat was a bad move

Dierdre De Burca leaving was very damaging

the about face on Lisbon II

The fact that political careers were put before the good of the nation like the Willie O Dea fiasco

The fact that FF are using and will use the Greens as a whipping boy to their supporters, and destroy them as they did the PDs I feel has made a lot of Greens lose heart - as we have seen with Fis Nua's formation

IF the greens can find an issue of principle left to leave government, it will be too little too late, they have lost crediblity