Argentina vs. Germany - QF(59), Sat 03/07 15:00 (BST), Cape Town

Pro. F

rarnes1 wrote: »

Giles and Ronnie reckon there's no need for a holding player in football based on one game.

Pair of genius's.

Giles..." back in my day ".....

To be fair to Giles, it's not just one game he's basing it on, he's been saying it for yeeeeaaaaaaaarrrrrrs

He usually also harps on about lots of DCMs not having enough skill on the ball, which is a more pertinent point imo

Boskowski

nacho libre wrote: »

Well even Van Gal admitted Bayern were fortunate to beat Man Utd in the champions league.
As it was they were well beaten by Inter in the final.

But that's still not aberage. Average is coming in on 12th place with Bolton.

Jimmy Iovine

parasite wrote: »

from http://twitter.com/InfostradaLive
#GER Germany are the first team for 40 years to score 4+ goals in 3+ different #worldcup matches. The last to do so were #BRA Brazil at the 1970 #worldcup .
21 minutes ago via TweetDeck

Incredible to be up there with one of the best teams of all-time in that stat for a team no one backed before the tournament and a German one at that

Bodhisopha

CorkMan wrote: »

If Verson was on, or if Riquelme was in the squad, they would have been in Messi' position today. Messi plays best in between the midfield and defence ala Barcelona, instead he was the Iniesta/Xavi of the squad today.

---

Romero

Zanetti

---

Demichilis

---

Samuel

---

Heinze

---

Cambiasso

---

Veron

---

Riquelme

Messi

---

Tevez

---

Higuain

This side would have put up a tougher match against the germans, Veron and Riquelme would have been creating and the front 3 would be focused solely between defence and midfield. The argentine squad today wasn't the best we could have seen by a half mile.

Instead Zanetti/Cambiasso/Riquelme are out because of quarrels with Maradona and he ends up kissing the rest of the squad.

Veron doesn't appear to have the legs to compensate for when he doesn't have the ball anymore. The Riquelme i remember is ideal, but i haven't seen him in years so can't really say with any confidence what he might have contributed.

Cambiasso and Zanetti moreso are huge misses.

Boskowski

Argentina conducted themselves very well. No repeat of 2006 antics.

jesus_thats_gre

CorkMan wrote: »

---

Romero

Zanetti

---

Demichilis

---

Samuel

---

Heinze

---

Cambiasso

---

Veron

---

Riquelme

Messi

---

Tevez

---

Higuain

If you are going to play two slow, aging midfielders that haven't playing in the top European leagues for a good 3 or 4 years, you need a Mascherano behind them. There is no two ways about that in my opinion.

Asides from that, it was always going to boil down to who could defend better today. Germany done very well in that department and Argentina done what most of us feared they might do..

nacho libre

Boskowski wrote: »

But that's still not aberage. Average is coming in on 12th place with Bolton.

ok not average, but if a thread was created here after the champions league. how many people would have tipped the Bayern Munich players to shine in the World Cup and eclipse the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Kaka? so i think my orginal point is valid that some of these German players are transformed when they put on the German shirt.

Chucky the tree

The problem for Germany is they are in serious trouble if they go behind in a match. Also they are set up perfectly to play the likes of Agrentina, Brazil and Spain but I think they'd struggle against Holland.

steelcityblues

nacho libre wrote: »

ok not average, but if a thread was created here after the champions league. how many people would have tipped the Bayern Munich players to shine in the World Cup and eclipse the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Kaka? so i think my orginal point is valid that some of these German players are transformed when they put on the German shirt.

Anyone else expected him to be average before the tournament? He shone in a Serie A in decline, and is going to be exposed at Real Madrid.

Schweinsteiger looks hard to beat for the player of the tournament at this moment!

CorkMan

steelcityblues wrote: »

Anyone else expected him to be average before the tournament? He shone in a Serie A in decline, and is going to be exposed at Real Madrid.

Schweinsteiger looks hard to beat for the player of the tournament at this moment!

If Spain beat Germany with Villa getting a brace we'll have to see about that

Boskowski

Germany has already exceeded expectations. Even had they gone out today it would have been no disgrace. I'm sure now all they can think of is getting into the final. The believe and confidence they will have gained from the last two matches will be enormous. Surely they must think now it's there for them to get it.

Jimmyboss

jaykay74 wrote: »

anyone know the last team before Germany 2010 to score 4 goals or more in 3 matches or more in 1 wc ? great goal return. thinking back as far as 82 which is the earliest I remember and can't think of any.

Hungary's record in 1954 (9-8-7-4-4-2), 34 goals in total, beat W Germany 8-3 in the group stage, lost 3-2 to them in the final:eek::eek::eek::eek:

steelcityblues

CorkMan wrote: »

If Spain beat Germany with Villa getting a brace we'll have to see about that

He's looked good, but sometimes the forwards get too much credit at the major tournaments. A Spain-Germany semi would provide us with the answer though.

Bodhisopha

steelcityblues wrote: »

He's looked good, but sometimes the forwards get too much credit at the major tournaments. A Spain-Germany semi would provide us with the answer though.

A forward playing outside of his favoured position that provides 4 goals whilst always looking a threat deserves his dues imvhaho.

A Primal Nut

rarnes1 wrote: »

Giles and Ronnie reckon there's no need for a holding player in football based on one game.

Pair of genius's.

Giles..." back in my day ".....

He's balked at the idea of a holding midfielder for a while now. I tend to agree with him in circumstances where manager's seem to avoid picking a player for that role if he has ability on the ball. For example Xabi Alonso could be holding midfielder for Spain, and still be just as creative, leaving room to remove Busquets and insert Fabregas or Silva. But because Alonso is good on the ball, he can't be a holding midfielder apparently.

Maradona basically went into the game without a central midfield. It was supposed to be a diamond with Mascherano DM C and Messi OM C. It worked ok when they didn't have the ball but when they had it Mascherano may as well have not been on the pitch. With Rodriguez and Di Maria out on the wing, that left Messi as the only central midfielder. Thus he had to drop deep to find space and it was always asking too much for him to have a big impact. You want him in the last third of the pitch.

Perhaps Maradona wanted Rodriguez to replace Veron in the centre but he didn't touch the ball so I'm not sure where he was really.

I backed Argentina at the start because I assumed Veron would be a regular in central midfield. Instead they took him out, put in another winger (Maxi Rodrigues) and Messi had to play a deeper, more central role. It was never going to get the best out of him or the team.

If Veron was injured, then Maradona is still to blame for not picking Cambiasso (at least as a backup).

Its strange, I thought it would be the defence that let Argentina down. But their attack had plenty of opportunites to equalise at 1-0 and failed. Once the second goal went in, the defence collapsed.

Congratulations to Miroslav Klose - joint with Gerd Muller on 14 goals in World Cup games, just 1 behind Ronaldo. Odds on him breaking the record?

IvySlayer

A Holland-Germany final would be epic.

Germany were just awesome

Am happy Maradonna is gone.

LeeroyJones

IvySlayer wrote: »

A Holland-Germany final would be epic.

Germany were just awesome

Am happy Maradonna is gone.

Fun Police?????

bet yea the Netherlands against Germany would by great! Really hate eachother!!

Pro. F

A Primal Nut wrote: »

He's balked at the idea of a holding midfielder for a while now. I tend to agree with him in circumstances where manager's seem to avoid picking a player for that role if he has ability on the ball. For example Xabi Alonso could be holding midfielder for Spain, and still be just as creative, leaving room to remove Busquets and insert Fabregas or Silva. But because Alonso is good on the ball, he can't be a holding midfielder apparently.

Maradona basically went into the game without a central midfield. It was supposed to be a diamond with Mascherano DM C and Messi OM C. It worked ok when they didn't have the ball but when they had it Mascherano may as well have not been on the pitch. With Rodriguez and Di Maria out on the wing, that left Messi as the only central midfielder. Thus he had to drop deep to find space and it was always asking too much for him to have a big impact. You want him in the last third of the pitch.

Perhaps Maradona wanted Rodriguez to replace Veron in the centre but he didn't touch the ball so I'm not sure where he was really.

I backed Argentina at the start because I assumed Veron would be a regular in central midfield. Instead they took him out, put in another winger (Maxi Rodrigues) and Messi had to play a deeper, more central role. It was never going to get the best out of him or the team.

If Veron was injured, then Maradona is still to blame for not picking Cambiasso (at least as a backup).

Its strange, I thought it would be the defence that let Argentina down. But their attack had plenty of opportunites to equalise at 1-0 and failed.

Good points

ultain

Uruguay are missing key players for the meeting against the dutch..so holland really shouldn't have to much trouble getting to the final...and of course spain are huge favourites to get to the semi's..but will Germany have enough to knock them out...I'd have to say yes, the Germans coach appears to be a master tactician.

#15

A Primal Nut wrote: »

He's balked at the idea of a holding midfielder for a while now. I tend to agree with him in circumstances where manager's seem to avoid picking a player for that role if he has ability on the ball. For example Xabi Alonso could be holding midfielder for Spain, and still be just as creative, leaving room to remove Busquets and insert Fabregas or Silva. But because Alonso is good on the ball, he can't be a holding midfielder apparently.

Depends on the definition of a holding player really.
A lot of people define a holding player by the space they occupy, rather than their role.

Jimmyboss

Jimmyboss wrote: »

Hungary's record in 1954 (9-8-7-4-4-2), 34 goals in total, beat W Germany 8-3 in the group stage, lost 3-2 to them in the final:eek::eek::eek::eek:

It's an awful pity then didnt have heskey, would of been easily 70?

steelcityblues

Did Messi in anyway come under fire from the RTE panel for not delivering at this World Cup? Did not get to see their analysis.

Or does that heavy criticism only apply if you are Cristiano Ronaldo or Wayne Rooney?

_Bella_

What odds would you have got before the World Cup that Ji Yun-Nam would score more goals then Messi and Rooney combined

A Primal Nut

#15 wrote: »

Depends on the definition of a holding player really.
A lot of people define a holding player by the space they occupy, rather than their role.

Ah ok. I am talking the definition by role, rather than position. The concept of a modern holding midfielder as a role goes back to Claude Makelele, the most important player in the Galacticos team. His job was to win the ball and make a simple pass to the creative players. He wasn't allowed do anything creative. Now every team has one - Gilberto Silva, Mascherano, Busquets(although he has more freedom with Barca), Yaya Toure, Diarra, etc.

To show the difference, Manchester United won a treble in 1999 with a central midfield partnership of Roy Keane and Paul Scholes. Scholes is a creative playmaker and goalscorer. Keane could win the ball but was also allowed to be creative and got forward. In a modern formation, Scholes would be pushed up behind a single front man and a holding midfieder would be put alongside Keane. The idea of a holding midfielder trying to do something on the ball seems to be frowned upon by their manager. Ronnie Whelan's analysis of Mascherano today as a short back and sides passer was typical of the modern-day holding midfielder.

I was happy to see Alex Song come through this season for Arsenal, he actally sets up a lot of chances for teammates apart from his ball-winning abilities.

Fizman

steelcityblues wrote: »

Did Messi in anyway come under fire from the RTE panel for not delivering at this World Cup? Did not get to see their analysis.

Or does that heavy criticism only apply if you are Cristiano Ronaldo or Wayne Rooney?

I don't think it's fair to put Messi's contribution to this WC in the same basket as Ronaldos and Rooneys. Granted it was disappointing seeing as he didn't get on the score sheet, but there were still plenty of moments where he'd get you on your feet after beating a few players. In the end he was almost trying too hard to score.

steelcityblues

Fizman wrote: »

I don't think it's fair to put Messi's contribution to this WC in the same basket as Ronaldos and Rooneys. Granted it was disappointing seeing as he didn't get on the score sheet, but there were still plenty of moments where he'd get you on your feet after beating a few players. In the end he was almost trying too hard to score.

He still had the most shots of any player in the tournament (so far), and could not convert even one! Dangerous sign.

Whatever else you want to say about Maradona's coaching, he certainly wasn't preventing Messi from playing to his style. Plus, it would be unfair if pundits give him a pass after this, while laying into others.

fullstop

LeeroyJones wrote: »

/Oezil!

Ozil. Why do RTE insist on spelling this wrong also, his name's on his jersey FFS.

Livvie

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Fun Police?????

bet yea the Netherlands against Germany would by great! Really hate eachother!!

My German friend was telling me that there was a really bad song/chant about the Dutch, and it was so bad she wouldn't tell me what it was, but because of it she says she'll be supporting Holland if they meet.

I'd like Holland to win because they've never won it - and they do play attractive football too.

The Germans were awesome today though - if they're like this now, what will they be like at the next WC.

Livvie

CivilServant wrote: »

Humiliation!

at least England scored 1

2

Paparazzo

Jimmyboss wrote: »

Hungary's record in 1954 (9-8-7-4-4-2), 34 goals in total, beat W Germany 8-3 in the group stage, lost 3-2 to them in the final:eek::eek::eek::eek:

I was reading about that world cup before, not sure of the format but basically germany were fairly sure they'd meet hungary again so they used the group game to kick lumps out of the hungarians and injure as many as possible! Puskas insisted on playing in the final even though he could barely walk! Shame, that hungarian team deserved to be on the world cup winners list

Boskowski

fullstop wrote: »

Ozil. Why do RTE insist on spelling this wrong also, his name's on his jersey FFS.

Its because his name is Özil not Ozil. The 'Ö' is what we call Umlaut 'O' which can also be represented as 'Oe', for instance if you don't have it in your charset. Rte know what they're doing after all :eek:

#15

fullstop wrote: »

Ozil. Why do RTE insist on spelling this wrong also, his name's on his jersey FFS.

Boskowski wrote: »

Its becauae his name is Özil not Ozil The 'Ö' is what we call Umlaut 'O' which can also be represented as 'Oe', for instance if you don't have it in your charset. Rte know what they're doing after all :eek:

The two dots above his name are not there for the hell of it.

As Boskowski has said, it's either Özil or Oezil, never Ozil.

#15

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Ah ok. I am talking the definition by role, rather than position. The concept of a modern holding midfielder as a role goes back to Claude Makelele, the most important player in the Galacticos team. His job was to win the ball and make a simple pass to the creative players. He wasn't allowed do anything creative. Now every team has one - Gilberto Silva, Mascherano, Busquets(although he has more freedom with Barca), Yaya Toure, Diarra, etc.

To show the difference, Manchester United won a treble in 1999 with a central midfield partnership of Roy Keane and Paul Scholes. Scholes is a creative playmaker and goalscorer. Keane could win the ball but was also allowed to be creative and got forward. In a modern formation, Scholes would be pushed up behind a single front man and a holding midfieder would be put alongside Keane. The idea of a holding midfielder trying to do something on the ball seems to be frowned upon by their manager. Ronnie Whelan's analysis of Mascherano today as a short back and sides passer was typical of the modern-day holding midfielder.

I was happy to see Alex Song come through this season for Arsenal, he actally sets up a lot of chances for teammates apart from his ball-winning abilities.

Good analysis, I agree with most of it.

Interestingly enough, you didn't mention a Man Utd player. Was that by accident or design?

Hopefully design - Utd, I'm glad to say, still don't line up with a purely destructive (and that is what a holding player is in IMO) holding midfielder.

There was a great quote by Fergie but I cannot find it anywhere at the minute - it was about a youth player and it was along the lines of ''all Utd defenders have to learn to play one-on-one, there is no midfielder sitting in front to protect him''.

Personally, I dislike the use of holding players, although with the advent of 4-band formations, I can see the logic in using them. It's a shame to see perfectly capable ball-playing players like Yaya Toure turned into stoppers though.

One good thing about them is that they may have contributed to the re-emergence of wide forwards - the likes of Ronaldo, Henry and Messi.
Attackers who would have previously occupied the space of the traditional #10 have been pushed out to the wings, attacking diagonally rather than through the middle.

Boskowski

#15 wrote: »

.Interestingly enough, you didn't mention a Man Utd player. Was that by accident or design?

Ha. Maybe it's because this is the Germany v Argentina thread?

#15

I don't think his post was about the game today, we momentarily burst into a discussion on football theory;):D

Boskowski wrote: »

Ha. Maybe it's because this is the Germany v Argentina thread?

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Ah ok. I am talking the definition by role, rather than position. The concept of a modern holding midfielder as a role goes back to Claude Makelele, the most important player in the Galacticos team. His job was to win the ball and make a simple pass to the creative players. He wasn't allowed do anything creative. Now every team has one - Gilberto Silva, Mascherano, Busquets(although he has more freedom with Barca), Yaya Toure, Diarra, etc.

To show the difference, Manchester United won a treble in 1999 with a central midfield partnership of Roy Keane and Paul Scholes. Scholes is a creative playmaker and goalscorer. Keane could win the ball but was also allowed to be creative and got forward. In a modern formation, Scholes would be pushed up behind a single front man and a holding midfieder would be put alongside Keane. The idea of a holding midfielder trying to do something on the ball seems to be frowned upon by their manager. Ronnie Whelan's analysis of Mascherano today as a short back and sides passer was typical of the modern-day holding midfielder.

I was happy to see Alex Song come through this season for Arsenal, he actally sets up a lot of chances for teammates apart from his ball-winning abilities.

Boskowski

I know never mind only messin anyway

#15

Boskowski wrote: »

I know never mind only messin anyway

Ah, that kinda went over my head.:o

fullstop

Boskowski wrote: »

Its because his name is Özil not Ozil. The 'Ö' is what we call Umlaut 'O' which can also be represented as 'Oe', for instance if you don't have it in your charset. Rte know what they're doing after all :eek:

I know what an umlaut is, why can't they just put it in then...

#15

fullstop wrote: »

I know what an umlaut is, why can't they just put it in then...

Because OE is the same thing.

pickarooney

#15 wrote: »

Because OE is the same thing.

Not in Turkish

Fantastic performance from the Germans today, their fluidity and cohesion was amazing. For most of the match they really seemed to be playing with at least one more player than Argentina. When they moved forward, they were there in numbers, when they dropped back, they had all bases covered without ever seeming to tire.

Argentina on the other hand had Tevez haring about to little effect and the rest of the team static for large parts of the game, just loitering about waiting for passes that would never come.

A Primal Nut

Boskowski wrote: »

Ha. Maybe it's because this is the Germany v Argentina thread?

Haha i know your messing but it came from Mascherano's role in the Argentina team. There is no reason Maradona couldn't encourage him to try to get a bit forward and maybe hit some forward passes - surely anyone playing at that level should be capable of a bit of skill. That would have freed up Messi to do what he does best. Instead Mascherano dropped to the defensive line and Messi, realising his team was in trouble after the first 20 minutes, used his initiative to drop deep and play the playmaker role in central midfield. Then the ball was going out to Di Maria on the right wing - where Messi should have been. And judging by Di Maria's perfomance, he's no Messi!!

I wouldn't compare Messi to Rooney or Ronaldo's performance at all at this world cup. His attitude was much better, and he was at least the best attacking player for his team. If he was poor, it was only by his own high standard, whereas Rooney and Ronaldo were just...poor.

#15

pickarooney wrote: »

Not in Turkish

LOL, one pedant beaten by another. I bow to your knowledge:)

Mascherano's role in the Argentina team. There is no reason Maradona couldn't encourage him to try to get a bit forward and maybe hit some forward passes - surely anyone playing at that level should be capable of a bit of skill.

You know, I'm not so sure that Mascherano is capable of that. He seems to function as a fifth defender at times. I'm not sure that there is much difference between him and Demichelis in terms of their ability to move the ball forward pass the halfway line.

_Bella_

I just read this quote from Demichles after watching Germany trash England!

Argentina's Martin Dimichelis, no stranger to costly gaffes himself, went one further, saying "Seeing the way [John] Terry played against Germany, if I was Terry I wouldn't be able to go back to my country. I'm strong but I'm not a masochist.

I had to laugh!

PHB

United when they won the CL played a 4-2-3-1.

They played two deep lying midfield players, but the most defensive they ever got was Hargreaves, who was more in the Keane mould than the Makelele mould. The idea was that the 2 central players who dictate and pass, but provide defensive cover in numbers. Because there was 2 of them there, there wasn't a need for a destroyer like Makelele. And then we had the added advantage of having two very good passers of the ball in there.

Handsome Bob

I knew that Maradonna would be found out, their group was ridiculously easy. I put my money where my mouth was too, and am €160 richer for my efforts. :pac:

Pro. F

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Haha i know your messing but it came from Mascherano's role in the Argentina team. There is no reason Maradona couldn't encourage him to try to get a bit forward and maybe hit some forward passes - surely anyone playing at that level should be capable of a bit of skill. That would have freed up Messi to do what he does best. Instead Mascherano dropped to the defensive line and Messi, realising his team was in trouble after the first 20 minutes, used his initiative to drop deep and play the playmaker role in central midfield. Then the ball was going out to Di Maria on the right wing - where Messi should have been. And judging by Di Maria's perfomance, he's no Messi!!

Mascherano doesn't have enough skill on the ball to start attacks on his own. Central midfield players need to have excellent close control just to be able to turn on the ball so they can receive from their defence and then pass it forward. People forget how skillful Makalele was because he only made short passes, but a lot of those passes were forward passes. Mascherano can't do that. That's why he was dropping level with the defenders where there is far more space and time, which as you say messed up the rest of the team. Masch was shown up at Liverpool when Alonso left - Lucas (who is good but still developing) wasn't good enough to carry him when the team are in possession, Alonso was.
And for Argentina Maxi was never going to be able to do the job.
Maradona, being a completely clueless manager, didn't have a skillfull creative player alongside him even though he had Veron, Riquelme and Cambiasso to choose from.