Arsenal FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 10/11

Pierce_1991

OPENROAD wrote: »

:eek::eek:

http://www.arsenal.com/membership/membership-news/screening-on-the-pitch

That. Would. Be. DEADLY

liamygunner29

serious idea from the club there, good price as well. Would actually consider it for an end of exam trip.

Blatter

Just saw this on RedCafe, thought some of you would have a laugh at it, although I appreciate it's probably gone beyond funny at this stage:)

Frisbee

^^^^^ Ha, I saw one of those for Pool last night and was going to do an Arsenal one but looks like someone beat me to it. Eerily accurate as well.

PHB wrote: »

Your criticism is entirely based on the assumption that the money to spend is actually there. Have you ever considered that it might not be?

It has been 100% verified by the AST that since the sale of Kolo and Ade there has been £35M sitting in an account that is only to be used on transfers that has not been touched.

premierstone

enfant terrible wrote: »

We are a world class club because of Wenger.

Exactly, I think alot of the contributors here are say under 25 and dont appreciate the level Arsene has brought us too.

As for someone earlier suggesting that Arsene is tactically clueless, seriously wtf are you on about, the man who oversaw the invincbles, won 2 doubles, lead us to a European Cup Final, is the longest serving manager in the history of the club and the most successfull is now suddenly clueless - Holy mother of sh*t some Arsenal fans have high standards :rolleyes:

Pepe LeFrits

Wenger may lack many qualities but the ability to build a squad is not one of them. An assumed Arsenal first choice XI of Fabianski, Clichy, Vermaelen, Djourou, Sagna, Song, Wilshere, Fabregas, Nasri, van Persie and Walcott has been put together for not much more than the cost of Andy Carroll. Whatever else about his job performance, that is outstanding work.

David Moyes? I can understand people wanting a new manager in but how anyone can consider that a positive move? Replace a manager for being unable to elevate his club above 3rd with a manager who is unable to elevate his club beyond the usual 5th to 8th?

If Wenger goes I'd like to see us go for one of the next up-and-comers - the likes of Villas Boas, Deschamps, Klopp, Allegri etc.

Frisbee

Villas Boas, Biesla or Pelligrini would be me favoured choices if Wenger was to go, which I'm really hoping he won't and don't think he will.

Fuzzy_Dunlop

Fursttimer wrote: »

Securing our future? More like halting it.

Wenger has some serious flaws. His squad-building is woeful. He never retains the right personnel when we lose important, experienced players. I fear greatly for the loss of Cesc Fabregas this summer.

Over the last number of years, the Arsenal squad has become less expensive and less experienced. We have a host of average players who are vastly overpaid for their talent (or lack of). We have an absence of leaders on the pitch. It's no surprise we have failed year in year out.

We have a loyal fanbase, but it's took a hammering in recent years. For anyone who attends Arsenal home games, they'll know the arguing that occurs each and every match nowadays. Pretty disgusting but at the same time understandable because people are fed up forking out money and investing in a club that won't invest properly into the team. Yes, it's noted that we've had restrictions on transfers due to our new stadium but the tough part to swallow is the fact that it's reported that the money is there to invest in the squad!!

I have never-ending respect for Wenger. After all, he's produced good results in recent times under a limited budget. But, for a team like the Arsenal, and their supporters, that's not enough. We are a world-class club side who should be winning major trophies. Our manager refuses to dip into the kitty for star players, yet he purchased an inexperienced centre half last season for £10m. Can we have further success under Wenger? I don't think so

How exactly is securing CL football year in year out while moving to a £400 million stadium and establishing a world class youth structure detrimental to the club?

Spurs get into the CL one year while spending a lot more money and its deemed a great achievement in the clubs recent history and Wenger does it every year while keeping the club from going into further debt and he's deemed a failure. It seems there is no in between with most people.

And as others have said, Wenger is the reason why we are seen as a world renowned club.

shano_88

Frisbee wrote: »

Villas Boas, Biesla or Pelligrini would be me favoured choices if Wenger was to go, which I'm really hoping he won't and don't think he will.

+1

Id be happy enough with Joacham Low aswell.

DB10

PHB wrote: »

Your criticism is entirely based on the assumption that the money to spend is actually there. Have you ever considered that it might not be?

Sigh

Surely people don't still truely believe this, when all the evidence points to the contrary?

Not only that, but it certainly doesn't suddenly excuse Arsene from blame, when in recent years his record in the transfer market, has been shady at best. Also there has been plenty of opportunites to rid the dross and get in replacements which he hasn't taken.

jordainius

Anyone who thinks;
a) The board will sack Wenger
b) Wenger will walk out on a contract (which runs up to 2014)

either isn't an Arsenal fan, or is an Arsenal fan who knows very little about Wenger or our board despite supporting the club. Or needs their head checked.

Bottom line; It's not going to happen. Wenger ain't the type to walk out on a contract. As long as he keeps delivering Champions league football, filling the stadium and performing well financially; there is no way the board will sack him.

As a result; the debate of whether he should stay/go or who should replace is totally pointless. The discussion here should be about what is Wenger going to do in the summer regarding transfers and so on.

Like him or hate him; he'll be here next season.

DB10

enfant terrible wrote: »

We are a world class club because of Wenger.

I don't agree, for starters we haven't won the European Cup ever and now we don't look very close either. Our best players usually leave the club, we've won 3 league titles in the last 19 years. I wouldn't classify that up there with the likes of AC Milan, Madrid, Barcelona, Manchester United etc who most would deem world class clubs.

Also I think people overestimate the impact Wenger has had, lets not forget the club was easily the 3rd biggest in England before he came here and George Graham done a terrific job, some might argue better than Wenger. There was also a bad slump before he went ala this with Wenger.

DB10

jordainius wrote: »

Anyone who thinks;
a) The board will sack Wenger
b) Wenger will walk out on a contract (which runs up to 2014)

either isn't an Arsenal fan, or is an Arsenal fan who knows very little about Wenger or our board despite supporting the club. Or needs their head checked.

Bottom line; It's not going to happen. Wenger ain't the type to walk out on a contract. As long as he keeps delivering Champions league football, filling the stadium and performing well financially; there is no way the board will sack him.

As a result; the debate of whether he should stay/go or who should replace is totally pointless. The discussion here should be about what is Wenger going to do in the summer regarding transfers and so on.

Like him or hate him; he'll be here next season.

Wenger has been sacked before, and I don't know what you have to go on that he won't leave the club of his own accord. He has said before if he believes he cant take the team any further he will leave. Now the faith in him is diminishing greatly.

I for one would rather he leave the club than have the fans on his back much more, and his legendary status tainted.

Clearly he has no intention of packing it in this summer, his one hope left is to sign PL experience we need and rid the dross.

If were sitting in this same position next season after a 3rd season of dramatic collapses running, I cannot see him staying.

tony1kenobi

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote: »

How exactly is securing CL football year in year out while moving to a £400 million stadium and establishing a world class youth structure detrimental to the club?

Spurs get into the CL one year while spending a lot more money and its deemed a great achievement in the clubs recent history and Wenger does it every year while keeping the club from going into further debt and he's deemed a failure. It seems there is no in between with most people.

And as others have said, Wenger is the reason why we are seen as a world renowned club.

I agree completely with this.

I'm also tired of the fan phrase "investing in the club"....it's not investing...it's paying to watch a game of football.....I went to see Thor the other night....I didn't go to see it so that the Avengers movie gets made...I went to see a man smash people with a big hammer....I was a little disappointed he didn't smash more people but I'm not going to lobby for Kenneth Branagh to have his equity card taken off him.

What's Osama Bin Watchin'?

jmayo

DB10 wrote: »

I don't agree, for starters we haven't won the European Cup ever and now we don't look very close either. Our best players usually leave the club, we've won 3 league titles in the last 19 years. I wouldn't classify that up there with the likes of AC Milan, Madrid, Barcelona, Manchester United etc who most would deem world class clubs.

Totally agree.
Arsenal may be big in England, but in global terms they are not one of the big boys.
Saying they are big world club is like listening to Newcastle fans and their delusions of grandeur :rolleyes:

DB10 wrote: »

Also I think people overestimate the impact Wenger has had, lets not forget the club was easily the 3rd biggest in England before he came here and George Graham done a terrific job, some might argue better than Wenger. There was also a bad slump before he went ala this with Wenger.

Graham won a European competition, fair enough it was Cup Winners Cup and their football was sh**e.
They got early goal in final after which they just defended as per usual.

Wenger's big early advantage of spotting talent that hadn't been truly tapped has not been as easy to use of late.
Now when a club see him interested in a player they up the anti.

Saying that he also has had some cr** buys.

I think his and the clubs coaching staff's attitude was clearly shown in Liam Brady's outburst about Mourinho.
They appear more interested in playing a certain brand of football rather than sometimes just getting results.
Arsenal do not have the physical or mental toughness in their team necessary to win big and that is down to Wenger.

There appears to be a notion that players brought in most fit some patern.
What is the overirding concern with youth ?
Sometimes you need good old fashioned spoilers who are not brilliant on the ball, but rather just stop others playing.
If you are lucky you can get someone that has both real ability as player and spoiler, but those are not easy to find and when you do they prove expensive.

Arsenal have been leaderless now for a while.
When was the last time Arsenal had a true leader on the pitch ?
henry was not a leader, gallas was useless, fabregas is not a leader.
A great talented player does not necessarily make a great leader.
Vermaelen could fit the bill, but when injured who is there ?

Arsenal need players in numerous positions: goal, right across the defense, holding midfield, centre forward.
But it is no use getting someone very good who crumbles when the going gets tough.
They need to get a few hardened players who have the bottle to dig deep and often just do the needful to win.

cson

The captain thing is a nonsense imo; Arshavin, Rosicky, Vermaelen, Chamakh, Van Persie, Nasri and Song have all captained their Countries. So where does that leave us?

gosplan

jmayo wrote: »

What is the overirding concern with youth ?

IMO the concern with youth was that for the last 4-5 years, Arsenal have been on 'project Wenger' for want of a better term.

Coinciding nicely with the move to the new stadium, Wenger had more or less a squad(or at least a first team) of players who had all been together at the club since the age of 16 or less. I have no doubt that Wenger viewed this as a special group of players and he's said as much himself.

The plan from 4 years ago as I see it would have been:

"Move to new stadium while spending minimal amounts on new players but still securing yearly CL football with maturing squad who will eventually win everything and beat Man U 10-0"

If you consider that Wenger's had that as a 4/5 year plan then things really make a lot of sense, especially the whole 'buying someone new would be killing the development of X'.

Where Wenger deserves huge credit is where he always gets credit. He earmarked these players at a very young age and thy're excellent footballers who would grace nearly any squad. Where he deserves criticisim is that he should have listened to Alan Hansen and the 'can't win anything with Kids line'.

As regards the future. Wenger needs to accept that his plan was brilliant except for the problem that you really do need experience when things get tough. Maybe if some of the 16 year olds had a different mentality, maybe if Bergkamp and Keown had overlapped with them a bit more, maybe it would have worked out? Maybe the nurturing has them all feeling a bit too 'special' to be busting a gut trying to win ugly or something, who knows?

The main thing is that he needs to accept that the project is over. It achieved many of his goals but not all of them. It did give him an excellent team and a near complete squad but they haven't won anything. He now needs to be pragmatic. We need experience, we need defensive coaching, we need to offload some of his players.

Overall we need a change, not a change in manager but a change in outlook. I think we'll see it tbh. The yearly Asenal rollercoaster graph earlier in the thread was good and kind of rang true but realistically, it's never been this bad and Arsenal have never blown opportunities like they have this year. That cup final against Birmingham? The run in we had compared to Man U? The Champions League group we got? Liverpool? Newcastle? Spurs x 2? Last year, we fell away at the same time but I can't remember a spell as bad with injuries as Feb onwards. This year we had a fair go at it and we just weren't good enough at winning. Wenger can rightfully be accused of being myopic but he's not blind.

His project was amazing and he's probably one of the only managers that could have done it as well but he'll be as aware as everyone else that it's come up short in terms of developing a squad capable of winning trophies.

In Wenger we still trust.

Edited to include the obligatory impossible wishlist: Fabio Concentrao, Bastian Schweinsteiger, one of Melo/De Rossi/Parker, Eden Hazard in please!!! Diaby, Denilson, Rosicky out!!!

Pepe LeFrits

Arsenal ARE a big club globally now. Big ears continues to evade but the club is one of the strongest in Europe and has been so for years. 4th highest turnover on the planet, huge global fanbase, regularly reaching last 8/16 of the CL. Its status as a 'superclub' is as much visible in that 3rd place & last 16 is now considered underperforming.

PHB

Frisbee wrote: »

It has been 100% verified by the AST that since the sale of Kolo and Ade there has been £35M sitting in an account that is only to be used on transfers that has not been touched.

Are AST a supporters trust or something? Lots of United supporters clubs think that the 80 million profit made from Ronaldo is still there too.

I think Wenger is towing the party line a lot in terms of transfer budgets.

tony1kenobi

Hohoho.

http://www.the-gaffer.com/news/arsenal-demand-royalty-payment-every-time-ball-passed.html

DB10

cson wrote: »

The captain thing is a nonsense imo; Arshavin, Rosicky, Vermaelen, Chamakh, Van Persie, Nasri and Song have all captained their Countries. So where does that leave us?

Would you seriously call any of them leaders on the scale of previous Arsenal captains or those in the United/Chelsea/City team?

Captaincy does not equal Leadership. Wenger has disrespected the captaincy by floating it around to rubbish like Almunia, Rosicky and Silvestre.

yahoo_moe

jmayo wrote: »

Arsenal may be big in England, but in global terms they are not one of the big boys.

Then why do you seem to think that the job Wenger is doing isn't enough? Why should a club that's not big deserve better than regular CL football, the occasional tilt at a trophy and occasional big wins over the genuine superpowers?

We're coming out of the really cash-strapped phase now but for anyone to think we could realistically have been doing all that much better in recent years is a bit mad. I've reckoned for a couple of years that we weren't being run as title challengers and from the club's point of view, I think that made perfect sense. Only two teams max. can win the PL and CL but somehow doing all that Arsenal has done isn't enough for some people.

The recent financial results predict a cash windfall in the next year or two which I'm sure will be reinvested to some extent in the team - but it'll still be sensible and self-financing and I'm not sure how any fan can discuss the team situation while ignoring the club situation. Being anti-Wenger just when he might get a chance to reap the benefits of his own fine work in the last few years is hugely ungrateful and incredibly short-sighted in my view.

jmayo

cson wrote: »

The captain thing is a nonsense imo; Arshavin, Rosicky, Vermaelen, Chamakh, Van Persie, Nasri and Song have all captained their Countries. So where does that leave us?

When I mentioned Captains I meant leaders.
FFS none of the above bar maybe Vermaelen would inspire anyone.
Most of the above get stroppy and everyone of them has had rushes of blood to the head which has gotten them booked and in the likes of Van Persie's case sent off in a big match.
And yes I know the likes of Viera could suffer from same thing but at that time there was the other old guys there to take up the slack.

Has anyone seen any of the above really urging on their fellow players after they have a set back ?
Whenever Arsenal suffer a set back you find heads dropping and no one digging in.
Would that have happened with Adams or Viera.
Watch Liverpool, Chelsea, United, etc and see how there is always someone organising, someone stepping up.

gosplan wrote: »

IMO the concern with youth was that for the last 4-5 years, Arsenal have been on 'project Wenger' for want of a better term.

Coinciding nicely with the move to the new stadium, Wenger had more or less a squad(or at least a first team) of players who had all been together at the club since the age of 16 or less. I have no doubt that Wenger viewed this as a special group of players and he's said as much himself.

The plan from 4 years ago as I see it would have been:

"Move to new stadium while spending minimal amounts on new players but still securing yearly CL football with maturing squad who will eventually win everything and beat Man U 10-0"

If you consider that Wenger's had that as a 4/5 year plan then things really make a lot of sense, especially the whole 'buying someone new would be killing the development of X'.

Yes, but you can't hang on to Y if a club that is bigger and winning comes in for him.
Great you build up X, but you lose Y.
Looking at the current squad they are not all that they are cracked up to be.
Walcott had great promise, but how good is really going to be ?
Look at full backs Clichy, Eboue and Sagna.
They can have some right howlers.
I don't think they are as good as cole (love him or probably hate him) or Laurent.
Flamini filled one of those slots at one time and was better I believe.
Look at centre of Midfield, Song will never be a Viera or Petit type player.
Rosicky is a waste and like Van Persie spends half the time injured.
FFS get rid of Bendtner.

gosplan wrote: »

As regards the future. Wenger needs to accept that his plan was brilliant except for the problem that you really do need experience when things get tough. Maybe if some of the 16 year olds had a different mentality, maybe if Bergkamp and Keown had overlapped with them a bit more, maybe it would have worked out? Maybe the nurturing has them all feeling a bit too 'special' to be busting a gut trying to win ugly or something, who knows?

Listening to Brady's outburst winning ugly doesn't appear to be taught at Arsenal Youth Development.
And there lies part of the problem and why they ain't going to win things. :rolleyes:

gosplan wrote: »

Overall we need a change, not a change in manager but a change in outlook.
I think we'll see it tbh. The yearly Asenal rollercoaster graph earlier in the thread was good and kind of rang true but realistically, it's never been this bad and Arsenal have never blown opportunities like they have this year.

That cup final against Birmingham? The run in we had compared to Man U? The Champions League group we got? Liverpool? Newcastle? Spurs x 2? Last year, we fell away at the same time but I can't remember a spell as bad with injuries as Feb onwards. This year we had a fair go at it and we just weren't good enough at winning. Wenger can rightfully be accused of being myopic but he's not blind.

Sometimes stubbornness and ego can be blinding.
What about promoting Steve Bould and bringing in new defensive coach like Adams or Keown ?

gosplan wrote: »

Edited to include the obligatory impossible wishlist: Fabio Concentrao, Bastian Schweinsteiger, one of Melo/De Rossi/Parker, Eden Hazard in please!!! Diaby, Denilson, Rosicky out!!!

You forgot the world greatest striker from Denmark :rolleyes:

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Arsenal ARE a big club globally now. Big ears continues to evade but the club is one of the strongest in Europe and has been so for years. 4th highest turnover on the planet, huge global fanbase, regularly reaching last 8/16 of the CL. Its status as a 'superclub' is as much visible in that 3rd place & last 16 is now considered underperforming.

Yep they are the ones that strikes fear into the other big clubs.
You know the ones they beat for trophies and titles. :rolleyes:

The one thing Arsenal have going for them up to now is that they were not either up to their necks in debt nor reliant on some sugar daddy like some of the bigger clubs.
When most people mention big clubs they think of the ones that win major honours every few years.
Arsenal for a start haven't won some of those honours ever.

DB10 wrote: »

Would you seriously call any of them leaders on the scale of previous Arsenal captains or those in the United/Chelsea/City team?

Captaincy does not equal Leadership. Wenger has disrespected the captaincy by floating it around to rubbish like Almunia, Rosicky and Silvestre.

Ah jaysus silvestre.
That experiment showed two things.
Firstly it showed Wenger's poor choice in taking on a sometimes pretty dodgy defender and secondly how Arsenal would take united rejects.
Would we see united picking up an Arsenal reject ?

DB10

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Then why do you seem to think that the job Wenger is doing isn't enough? Why should a club that's not big deserve better than regular CL football, the occasional tilt at a trophy and occasional big wins over the genuine superpowers?

We're coming out of the really cash-strapped phase now but for anyone to think we could realistically have been doing all that much better in recent years is a bit mad. I've reckoned for a couple of years that we weren't being run as title challengers and from the club's point of view, I think that made perfect sense. Only two teams max. can win the PL and CL but somehow doing all that Arsenal has done isn't enough for some people.

The recent financial results predict a cash windfall in the next year or two which I'm sure will be reinvested to some extent in the team - but it'll still be sensible and self-financing and I'm not sure how any fan can discuss the team situation while ignoring the club situation. Being anti-Wenger just when he might get a chance to reap the benefits of his own fine work in the last few years is hugely ungrateful and incredibly short-sighted in my view.

Fine work the last few years? I wouldnt call a near 7 year trophy drought fine work, and it wouldn't be stood for under previous managers.

Fact is if they want to charge the earth to watch a game, they should realise expectancy levels rise. When your paying twice as much as United for a ticket, the least you expect is to compete and buy players, but that hasn't happened.

Wenger is a football manager not an accountant as much as he would love to be.

- Tactically poor in recent years

- Players out of position - Bendtner, Chamakh on the wing? Denilson defensive midfield - nearly causing us to finish lower than Villa a few years back. Eboue, Diaby, Walcott, several others to be played out of positions at times.

- Poor purchases in recent years - Squallaci, Almunia, Denilson, Silvestre,

- Refusing to address glaring weaknesses in the side ie CB, GK, DM

- Persisting with rubbish in the starting eleven ala names mentioned above plus Fabianksi, Bendtner, Eboue.

- Not gracious in defeat. Never admitting mistakes. Embarrassing post match interviews on a weekly basis.


This list goes on. The guy is not some sort of messiah that cannot be questioned, that ended a long time ago.

If a different man was in charge since 2005, they most certainly would have been sacked long ago. So its easy to see why many are asking questions of him.

It's goes way behind whether he had enough money to spend or not. Some of the money he has spent, has not be spent well and other players should have been sold long ago.

jmayo

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Then why do you seem to think that the job Wenger is doing isn't enough? Why should a club that's not big deserve better than regular CL football, the occasional tilt at a trophy and occasional big wins over the genuine superpowers?

We're coming out of the really cash-strapped phase now but for anyone to think we could realistically have been doing all that much better in recent years is a bit mad. I've reckoned for a couple of years that we weren't being run as title challengers and from the club's point of view, I think that made perfect sense. Only two teams max. can win the PL and CL but somehow doing all that Arsenal has done isn't enough for some people.

The recent financial results predict a cash windfall in the next year or two which I'm sure will be reinvested to some extent in the team - but it'll still be sensible and self-financing and I'm not sure how any fan can discuss the team situation while ignoring the club situation. Being anti-Wenger just when he might get a chance to reap the benefits of his own fine work in the last few years is hugely ungrateful and incredibly short-sighted in my view.

The reason I am angry with Wenger is we get the same sh**e that he is building for the future.
As I said in other post what is the use in a 5 year plan when half the players you start out with are snapped up by clubs that are actually winning things ?
Watch Fabregas.

This year the title was wide open, the other contenders all had f**k ups.
Arsenal with a few better hardworking honest players could have won it.
Instead they relinguished leads to frankly mediocre teams.
They lost a cup final to a team that doesn't have half the talent.
In fact it has a failed ex Arsenal player in it's ranks who excelled at the now often customary Arsenal method of trying to walk the ball into the goals.
Although he does show that maybe Wenger is getting as much out of some players as they are capable of.
There are very few ex Arsenal sucesses.

I don't see how anyone can think that the current Arsenal squad is on the verge of some glorious era.
Look at the defense FFS.
Once Vermaelen was injured how good were they ?
It has had a goal keeping problem for years, but he has done nothing about it.
Look up front.
Oh yeah one pretty good striker who has spent half his career at Arsenal injured.

Why hang on to the likes of Rosicky ?

DB10

jmayo wrote: »

The reason I am angry with Wenger is we get the same sh**e that he is building for the future.
As I said in other post what is the use in a 5 year plan when half the players you start out with are snapped up by clubs that are actually winning things ?
Watch Fabregas.

This year the title was wide open, the other contenders all had f**k ups.
Arsenal with a few better hardworking honest players could have won it.
Instead they relinguished leads to frankly mediocre teams.
They lost a cup final to a team that doesn't have half the talent.
In fact it has a failed ex Arsenal player in it's ranks who excelled at the now often customary Arsenal method of trying to walk the ball into the goals.
Although he does show that maybe Wenger is getting as much out of some players as they are capable of.
There are very few ex Arsenal sucesses.

I don't see how anyone can think that the current Arsenal squad is on the verge of some glorious era.
Look at the defense FFS.
Once Vermaelen was injured how good were they ?
It has had a goal keeping problem for years, but he has done nothing about it.
Look up front.
Oh yeah one pretty good striker who has spent half his career at Arsenal injured.

Why hang on to the likes of Rosicky ?

Agreed. I get the feeling the same people will be saying he cannot be criticised next season and the season after that and the next one. It could be 2020 with no trophy and it would still be the same tired rhetoric.

He hasn't won a trophy for over half his reign here. Whatever way people spin, it's a very long time.

the untitled user

DB10 wrote: »

If a different man was in charge since 2005, they most certainly would have been sacked long ago. So its easy to see why many are asking questions of him.

If a different manager was in charge, I feel pretty confident in saying Arsenal would have lost that CL spot. Who's to say we'd even be capable of mounting a title challenge today given the flirtation with insolvency that was the Highbury loan.

The club isn't exactly underachieving at the moment either, given that on average we've had o wait 6 to 7 seasons between it's periods of success. While Arsenal continue to mount title challenges and keep themselves a permanent CL fixture, I see no reason to dispense with Wenger. We might do better, but we could also do a lot worse, let's keep that in mind.

Galvasean

DB10 wrote: »

I wouldnt call a near 7 year trophy drought fine work

Do you work for a newspaper? Funny how six years suddenly becomes nearly seven years.

DB10

Galvasean wrote: »

Do you work for a newspaper? Funny how six years suddenly becomes nearly seven years.

Well look at it this way it will be 7 years at the earliest, from when we can win a trophy.

8 if your talking league titles. A very long time.

And at this point, I really dont see the same team winning much if anything next season.

yahoo_moe

jmayo wrote: »

Look at the defense FFS.
Once Vermaelen was injured how good were they ?

As impressive as United's for most of the year - 1 goal less conceded when each had 32 games played. It's fallen away recently but the whole team's performance has fallen away. We've stopped scoring and started conceding more. Did you forget all that part of the season or is your interest in Arsenal only piqued when things are negative?

jmayo wrote: »

Whenever Arsenal suffer a set back you find heads dropping and no one digging in.
Would that have happened with Adams or Viera.

Vieira was captain in 2003 and 2005. Between winning the league in 1991 and Wenger's first title in 1998, Arsenal's league finishes with Adams as captain were: 4th, 10th, 4th, 12th, 5th, 3rd. In 1992, Wrexham knocked them out of the FA Cup. Adams was in prison while captain, Vieira left the team in the lurch numerous times.

Great players both, but neither were perfect and neither led all-conquering teams. The revisionism that goes on is incredible.

DB10

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Vieira was captain in 2003 and 2005. Between winning the league in 1991 and Wenger's first title in 1998, Arsenal's league finishes with Adams as captain were: 4th, 10th, 4th, 12th, 5th, 3rd. In 1992, Wrexham knocked them out of the FA Cup. Adams was in prison while captain, Vieira left the team in the lurch numerous times.

Great players both, but neither were perfect and neither led all-conquering teams. The revisionism that goes on is incredible.

Load of rubbish. Wrexham, so what? How is that in any way relevant to a debate on leadership qualities. Sure we lost to the likes of Ipswich, and drew with Leyton Orient only THIS SEASON.

The leadership and captaincy of Adams, Vieira and others back then, has absolutely nothing to do, with how their quality as a team.

The only revisionism going is you trying to play down Vieira and Adams. If you think they are in anyway comparable to the current "leaders", then you are way off the mark.

Absolutely not up for debate.

gosplan

jmayo wrote: »

Walcott had great promise, but how good is really going to be ?

Walcott's great but very easy to defend against if you're not bothered attacking. He can be very useful but we need some alternatives. Still feel he might come on a good bit more though.

jmayo wrote: »

Look at full backs Clichy, Eboue and Sagna.
They can have some right howlers.
I don't think they are as good as cole (love him or probably hate him) or Laurent.

Sagna is awesome. Clichy to be number 2 left back for a while and see if that spurs him on. Eboue is backup.

jmayo wrote: »

Flamini filled one of those slots at one time and was better I believe.
Look at centre of Midfield, Song will never be a Viera or Petit type player.
Rosicky is a waste and like Van Persie spends half the time injured.
FFS get rid of Bendtner.

Flamini was a one season wonder for us. He went straight from his awesome season with us to a 6 million contract with Milan and a place on the bench mostly. The Flamini we saw in the last season would have gotten his game every week for anyone.

Vieira was special alright. Petit was four years older than Song is now when he signed for us though. IMO the problem is playing Song without a DMF partner. I think we badly need to change formation.

jmayo wrote: »

Listening to Brady's outburst winning ugly doesn't appear to be taught at Arsenal Youth Development.
And there lies part of the problem and why they ain't going to win things. :rolleyes:.

That's mostly inferred tbh. Anyway, I know I used the 'winning ugly' term first but really it's just an easy hook for the media. The invincibles didn't win ugly. Arsenal just defending as a unit and defending set pieces well would be fine.

jmayo wrote: »

Sometimes stubbornness and ego can be blinding.

Sometimes but you'd think he simply can't be that out of touch.

jmayo wrote: »

What about promoting Steve Bould and bringing in new defensive coach like Adams or Keown ?

I've no idea if they'd be any good. Woudl obviously be great to have around though.

jmayo wrote: »

You forgot the world greatest striker from Denmark :rolleyes:

Does no-one else get the feeling that he'll leave and turn out to be amazing. In fairness, he really hasn't been given a chance this season. Playing him on the wing is a bad joke.

peabutler

In Arsene we trust.

Irish Gunner

Ok we have all been like this during the season including myself. Taken during our collapse v the barcodes

NSFW as some language in it.....

http://youtu.be/ZQYob9E0q-Y
wont let me put up a youtube link tabs

yahoo_moe

DB10 wrote: »

The leadership and captaincy of Adams, Vieira and others back then, has absolutely nothing to do, with how their quality as a team.

Then why are the current failings automatically down to a lack of leadership? We collapsed in 2005, which apparently wasn't Vieira's fault. Or Campbell's, or Bergkamp's, or Lehmann's. Yet people who watch Arsenal from a distance and know nothing of the inner workings of the time are confident in declaring this year's collapse to a lack of leaders. Do you have any idea how much competition each of those players has seen off to get to where they are? You really think they're all losers?

My point was that people seem to forget that, like any club, we've always had bad results, always had times when players go missing, always had poor runs of form that have cost us titles and trophies. I think it's ridiculous that some keep touting the Invincibles as if that was their usual standard and judging the current crop as if any of us had a clue what goes on behind closed doors. The truth is we only see a small percentage of what goes on and don't really know about what leadership there is or isn't in the squad.

Anyway, with that explained, I think I've said what I wanted to. I suspect as usual you won't agree and we won't hear from you if we win this weekend. It's only the bad results that seem to spark you into action.

L'prof

Can sombody point me towards a good place to buy a drum so that I can beat the fuck out of one too???

enfant terrible

gosplan wrote: »

Where he deserves criticisim is that he should have listened to Alan Hansen and the 'can't win anything with Kids line'.

As regards the future. Wenger needs to accept that his plan was brilliant except for the problem that you really do need experience when things get tough. Maybe if some of the 16 year olds had a different mentality, maybe if Bergkamp and Keown had overlapped with them a bit more, maybe it would have worked out? Maybe the nurturing has them all feeling a bit too 'special' to be busting a gut trying to win ugly or something, who knows?

I think his young players are fine in midfield and upfront where a mistake is less lethal.

If he limited the young players to attacking positions I think we would have been ok these last few years.

Defensive players are usually cheaper too Given, Friedal, Hangeland, Samba, Dunne all were available, have proven premier league experience and would have made far fewer individual errors as our defenders.

I wonder how many points we've lost to individual errors compared to United.

Also apparently we've conceded the most goals and scored the least from set pieces so having people who can deal with them seems like a priority.

Hangeland, Samba or Dunne would have been useful this season.

gosplan

enfant terrible wrote: »

I think his young players are fine in midfield and upfront where a mistake is less lethal.

If he limited the young players to attacking positions I think we would have been ok these last few years.

Agreed. I did enviously watch Man City bring on Vieira for Johnson last night to shore up the game though. I know defensive substitutions aren't Wenger's style but we simply don't have any proper options like that at Arsenal. Having an experienced head to come on at DMF for Walcott or Arshavin may have made the difference in a lot of games this season

Pepe LeFrits

jmayo wrote: »

Yep they are the ones that strikes fear into the other big clubs.
You know the ones they beat for trophies and titles. :rolleyes:

The one thing Arsenal have going for them up to now is that they were not either up to their necks in debt nor reliant on some sugar daddy like some of the bigger clubs.
When most people mention big clubs they think of the ones that win major honours every few years.
Arsenal for a start haven't won some of those honours ever.

I'd imagine by your rationale you'd consider Porto, Ajax and Nottingham Forest to be bigger clubs than Arsenal but the majority wouldn't. Trophies show how successful a club is, fanbase shows how 'big' the club is.

Dick Burns

just watching last nights game gallas and viera playing for clubs trying to reach the champions league

do you think we should of kept them?i know viera was past his best when sold but like he is still doing it at the top level of the premiership and gallas with al his disadvantages was immense in games for us last season i know contract problems contributed to him leaving

same with robert pires he played brilliantly for villereal for a few years,flamini with ac milan,edu was playing his best football when he left

i just think if we hung onto one or 2 of them players they would of helped build mental strenght players in the squad,show them how to win trophies,i dont see why we cud take back jens lehmann + sol campbell(even tho he played well when he came back) and not someone like viera,i know big wages has been the biggest problem just strange looking at viera last nite with city getting into the CL and ders us not far ahead of them if he was at arsenal in the last 3 years we would ave one if not 2 leagues

Dick Burns

also

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmayo
You forgot the world greatest striker from Denmark

Does no-one else get the feeling that he'll leave and turn out to be amazing. In fairness, he really hasn't been given a chance this season. Playing him on the wing is a bad joke.

i feared this aswel,but there is absolutely no hope of this,the man has spoken for the last 2 years about been worlds best bla bla not getting a game bla bla yes hes played out on the wing but when he did play on the wing this season he scored 2 hat tricks?his attitude is very poor hes had to many chances when i see wenger bringing him on if we are behind i feel like its the white flag been risen,if we get 10mill for him i would grab it with both hands he will go to someone like werder bremen or ajax play bad for 6 months then moan and give out sayin hes not getting a chance,we are best off rid....chamakh is miles better!

gosplan

Dick Burns wrote: »

just watching last nights game gallas and viera playing for clubs trying to reach the champions league

do you think we should of kept them?i know viera was past his best when sold but like he is still doing it at the top level of the premiership and gallas with al his disadvantages was immense in games for us last season i know contract problems contributed to him leaving

same with robert pires he played brilliantly for villereal for a few years,flamini with ac milan,edu was playing his best football when he left

Vieira's a very good sub to have but hasn't really set first team football alight since he left us. Gallas kind of had to go I gather. Pires wasn't playing very well at Arsenal when he left. The Spanish game suited him a bit more I think. Flamini has only played like 70 games for Milan or something.

Dick Burns

gosplan wrote: »

Vieira's a very good sub to have but hasn't really set first team football alight since he left us. Gallas kind of had to go I gather. Pires wasn't playing very well at Arsenal when he left. The Spanish game suited him a bit more I think. Flamini has only played like 70 games for Milan or something.

true,i would like to see viera back at the club as a coach,he was a brilliant leader for us and had some ability for the size of the Him!

just on transfer news we are strongly linked with ajax defender Jan Vertonghen,he is good friends with vermaelen which could help,i seen him play a few times and i think it could be a brilliant partnership him and vermaelen,hes big strong a natural leader,similar to vidic

AnCapaillMor

Dick Burns wrote: »

just on transfer news we are strongly linked with ajax defender Jan Vertonghen,he is good friends with vermaelen which could help,i seen him play a few times and i think it could be a brilliant partnership him and vermaelen,hes big strong a natural leader,similar to vidic

Bad news is that city are sniffing around him, with chumps league football i can see city eclipse the past years spending.

greendom

AnCapaillMor wrote: »

Bad news is that city are sniffing around him, with chumps league football i can see city eclipse the past years spending.

Hopefully one of the following factors will encourage him to come to the Emirates instead.

His mate plays for us

Being in London rather than that northern backwater :pac:

More of a guarantee of 1st team football.

DB10

2 points behind City now, and with our collapse it will be tight to finish 3rd.

City have:

Stoke (H)
Bolton (A)

Arsenal:
Villa (H)
Fulham (A)


From the way we are playing now, and with Fulham under Hughes made to go out on a high after their hammering other night, I can see defeat there for us. With regards Villa, I think we will win.

From City's point of view, they have Stoke twice in a row now, and for some reason I can't see them beating them twice. So it depends how the cup final goes. They then have Bolton away, and I think that will be tricky.


I predict:
Arsenal - 3 points
City - 4 points

Arsenal finish ahead of City by one point.

Paleface

DB10 wrote: »

2 points behind City now, and with our collapse it will be tight to finish 3rd.

City have:

Stoke (H)
Bolton (A)

Arsenal:
Villa (H)
Fulham (A)


From the way we are playing now, and with Fulham under Hughes made to go out on a high after their hammering other night, I can see defeat there for us. With regards Villa, I think we will win.

From City's point of view, they have Stoke twice in a row now, and for some reason I can't see them beating them twice. So it depends how the cup final goes. They then have Bolton away, and I think that will be tricky.


I predict:
Arsenal - 3 points
City - 4 points

Arsenal finish ahead of City by one point.

If Arsenal beat Villa at the weekend then thats 3rd secured imo.

If City win the FA Cup then they could easily take their foot off the gas and be happy with a successful season.

jmayo

the untitled user wrote: »

If a different manager was in charge, I feel pretty confident in saying Arsenal would have lost that CL spot. Who's to say we'd even be capable of mounting a title challenge today given the flirtation with insolvency that was the Highbury loan.

The club isn't exactly underachieving at the moment either, given that on average we've had o wait 6 to 7 seasons between it's periods of success. While Arsenal continue to mount title challenges and keep themselves a permanent CL fixture, I see no reason to dispense with Wenger. We might do better, but we could also do a lot worse, let's keep that in mind.

I use to hold Wenger in very high regard, but what annoys me is he appears stubborn.
He could have picked up a seasoned premiership old pro like Richard Dunne to try and shore up a sometimes very dodgy defense.
But no he goes off and gets Squillaci who fair enough has Champion Legue experience and was part of that ever so successful French 2010 world cup squad.
How would people rate Squillaci at this stage ?
How many seasoned goalkeepers have been linked to Arseanl but yet nothign happens.

yahoo_moe wrote: »

As impressive as United's for most of the year - 1 goal less conceded when each had 32 games played. It's fallen away recently but the whole team's performance has fallen away. We've stopped scoring and started conceding more. Did you forget all that part of the season or is your interest in Arsenal only piqued when things are negative?

But why did the whole teams performance fall away ?
Why let good leads slip to mediocre teams ?
Would a united team even without Vidic and twitter twat let that happen ?

yahoo_moe wrote: »

Vieira was captain in 2003 and 2005. Between winning the league in 1991 and Wenger's first title in 1998, Arsenal's league finishes with Adams as captain were: 4th, 10th, 4th, 12th, 5th, 3rd. In 1992, Wrexham knocked them out of the FA Cup. Adams was in prison while captain, Vieira left the team in the lurch numerous times.

Ah FFS Wenger only arrived in 1996 and you had period where Ricoh, Bates, Rice were running things.
Prior to that you had Graham who whilst good manager in some ways was appalling in others.
Hell half the Arsenal team appeared to spend their time in some addiction clinic or other.
Wenger cleaned them up and showed the true potential of players like Adams and Keown.

DB10 wrote: »

Load of rubbish. Wrexham, so what? How is that in any way relevant to a debate on leadership qualities. Sure we lost to the likes of Ipswich, and drew with Leyton Orient only THIS SEASON.

Stop slagging Ipswitch. :mad:

DB10 wrote: »

The leadership and captaincy of Adams, Vieira and others back then, has absolutely nothing to do, with how their quality as a team.

The only revisionism going is you trying to play down Vieira and Adams. If you think they are in anyway comparable to the current "leaders", then you are way off the mark.

Absolutely not up for debate.

Very true.
Those guys inspired others by digging in when necessary.
FFS the current so called leaders don't inspire anything.
Some of them might be great players but dear God, if the best captain (leader) they had was Gallas, who famously threw a hissy fit at the one time he should have stood up, then it really showds the lack of leadership in the club over the last few years.

gosplan wrote: »

...
Sagna is awesome. Clichy to be number 2 left back for a while and see if that spurs him on. Eboue is backup.

I wouldn't go that far.

gosplan wrote: »

Flamini was a one season wonder for us. He went straight from his awesome season with us to a 6 million contract with Milan and a place on the bench mostly. The Flamini we saw in the last season would have gotten his game every week for anyone.

Yes Flamini last season was magnificent so why let him go ? Money I presume.
He had proven to be a multi role player who provided what Arsenal have been severily lacking.

gosplan wrote: »

Vieira was special alright. Petit was four years older than Song is now when he signed for us though. IMO the problem is playing Song without a DMF partner. I think we badly need to change formation.

That's mostly inferred tbh. Anyway, I know I used the 'winning ugly' term first but really it's just an easy hook for the media. The invincibles didn't win ugly. Arsenal just defending as a unit and defending set pieces well would be fine.

Look at the sloppy goals they have conceeded.
A lot of that is down to basic defending and organisation.
And who is supposedly in charge of the organising and who is the one that picked the players ?

gosplan wrote: »

Does no-one else get the feeling that he'll leave and turn out to be amazing. In fairness, he really hasn't been given a chance this season. Playing him on the wing is a bad joke.

I don't think he (bendtner) will ever achieve as much as he thinks he will.
I think he has major attitude problem bit like another ex Arsenal player who decided kicking and slapping was best way to beat Barca.

enfant terrible wrote: »

I think his young players are fine in midfield and upfront where a mistake is less lethal.

If he limited the young players to attacking positions I think we would have been ok these last few years.

Defensive players are usually cheaper too Given, Friedal, Hangeland, Samba, Dunne all were available, have proven premier league experience and would have made far fewer individual errors as our defenders.

I wonder how many points we've lost to individual errors compared to United.

Also apparently we've conceded the most goals and scored the least from set pieces so having people who can deal with them seems like a priority.

Hangeland, Samba or Dunne would have been useful this season.

Nail on head.

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

I'd imagine by your rationale you'd consider Porto, Ajax and Nottingham Forest to be bigger clubs than Arsenal but the majority wouldn't. Trophies show how successful a club is, fanbase shows how 'big' the club is.

Forest's success was down to one thing, a fantastic excentric manager.
Porto I do think are a big club.
They win honours almost every few years, ok in much easier league, but they also challenge for honours in Europe.

European Cup 1987
European Super Cup 1988
Intercontinental Cup 1988
UEFA Cup 2003
Champions League 2004
Intercontinental Cup 2004

And please FFS will you get real.
Claiming that Ajax are not a big club unlike Arsenal shows a sever lack of football knowledge. :rolleyes:

Ajax are a massive club with a pedigree that Arsenal could only bloody dream of.
Look at their list of honours, look at the list of players they have produced.
They have produced some of the greatest players the world has ever seen, one of which Arsenal were lucky enough to be able to have play for them at the end of his career.

European Cup 1971, 1972, 1973
Champions League 1995
Intercontinental Cup 1972, 1995
UEFA Cup 1992
Cup Winners Cup 1987.
European Super Cup 1973, 1995

Now Arsenal have won the following international trophies.
Inter-Cities Fairs Cup 1970 (which was precursor to UEFA Cup.)
and
Cup Winners Cup 1994.

Yeah I can see how you reckon Arseanl are massive global club way bigger than the above, what with all the shirts they sell. :rolleyes:

BTW my definition of how big a club is, actually also includes how successful they are and not just how many seats their stadium has or how many kids they con into buying a new shirt every year.

cson

He is correct is his assertion; globally Arsenal are much much bigger than Ajax or Porto. We are a big club in terms of infrastructure, finances and to a certain extent trophies.

Whilst you can find clubs that have been more successful than Arsenal; as you outline Forest, Ajax and Porto have all won the European Cup but we have not then of course you'll be able to claim they are 'bigger' clubs by that measurement. But its misleading; any player from those clubs could be had by Arsenal if they wanted, I'm certain of that and most of them would like to join us all things being equal because we are on another level to their present clubs.

Edit: I'm just after reading the entirety of your post there and you really don't have a clue.