Who was the greatest cyclist ever?

RobFowl

I've limited this to 2 named cyclists as they seem to be the main candidates debated on recent threads.

Armstrong and his record 7 TDF wins as well as a world title and Fleche

Merckx with 5 TDF's and almost everything else (Paris Brussells the major exception)

mcgratheoin

A.N. Other

4 hours early....

RobFowl

A.N. Other

mcgratheoin wrote: »

4 hours early....

I've got that Friday feeling

ednwireland

A.N. Other

yawn .................... obviously merckx

irishmotorist

A.N. Other

Merckx - no doubt. He won (nearly) everything and won lots. Lance won one (hard) race more times than Merckx. OK, this is simplified a bit, but essentially, that's how it was.
Also, Merckx didn't have carbon fibre and I'm not sure if they'd invented pasta back then.

RobFowl

A.N. Other

irishmotorist wrote: »

Merckx - no doubt. He won (nearly) everything and won lots. Lance won one (hard) race more times than Merckx. OK, this is simplified a bit, but essentially, that's how it was.
Also, Merckx didn't have carbon fibre and I'm not sure if they'd invented pasta back then.

FTR Pasta was discovered in 1957

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/1/newsid_2819000/2819261.stm

Beasty

irishmotorist wrote: »

Also, Merckx didn't have carbon fibre ...

... and neither did his opponents

Harrybelafonte

Fausto Coppi

Hail 2 Da Thief

When I was a very young lad I watched alot of the TDF stages during the summer holidays & Miguel Indurain was top dog.

Where would he rank amongst the all time greats?

irishmotorist

A.N. Other

Beasty wrote: »

... and neither did his opponents

Ah, but his opponent in this competition/poll did! He also has wind tunnels and cadence!

I'm confusing myself too!

dekbhoy

ya couldnt genuinely put Armstrongs name up there unless like the cycling authorities ya choose to ignore the fact the man used performance enhancing drugs ,but sure thats an argument for another day.....but sure so were so many , my personal favourite was sean kelly . at least he was as clean as a whistle

el tel

A.N. Other

Blorg

irishmotorist

A.N. Other

RobFowl wrote: »

FTR Pasta was discovered in 1957

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/1/newsid_2819000/2819261.stm

She looks so happy picking it!

I'd heard of that but didn't realise it was so far back.

DirkVoodoo

Is this a greatest in terms of success and trophy hauls or can I pick my personal favourite in terms of inspirational?

Pantani for me!

Beasty

irishmotorist wrote: »

Ah, but his opponent in this competition/poll did! He also has wind tunnels and cadence!

I'm confusing myself too!

And Armstrong is up against opponents that have access to the same technology

This is the difficulty in comparing sportsmen across different eras. You can only measure by reference to the opposition - arguably the opposition in Merckx's day was less intense, but if he regularly beat the guys that put themselves up against him, that's all you could ask for. It's exactly the same for Armstrong. It may well be that without the technology Armstrong would have been a "lesser" rider, and with it Merrckx would have been in the same position - who will ever know? Hence you can only really ignore it and consider how dominant each rider is in his respective era. Does this give you the "right" result? Again, who knows:D

Junior

A.N. Other

And as if you thought gut instinct wasn't enough to base this decision on, check out the virtual musette's posting on this topic and the reasoning and maths behind it..


http://thegrupetto.squarespace.com/posts/category/the-top-25-cyclists-of-the-modern-era

Hermy

A.N. Other

RobFowl wrote: »

Merckx with 5 TDF's and almost everything else (Paris Brussells the major exception)

Merckx won Paris-Brussels in 1974.
His best placing in Paris-Tours was 6th in 1973.

RobFowl

A.N. Other

Hermy wrote: »

Merckx won Paris-Brussels in 1974.
His best placing in Paris-Tours was 6th in 1973.

I stand corrected

Pherekydes

A.N. Other

dekbhoy wrote: »

...sean kelly . at least he was as clean as a whistle

LOL

Hermy wrote: »

Merckx...best placing in Paris-Tours was 6th in 1973.

The useless git. Lazy, too.

sy

A.N. Other

Read and weap

Lance No contest

MrCreosote

Eddy Merckx

Lance all the way!

Sure, he concentrated mainly on one race, but to race clean and still beat convicted dopers like Pantani, Ullrich, Hamilton etc is the best feel-good sports story of the last 10 years! It's incredible!

Lumen

MrCreosote wrote: »

Lance all the way!

Sure, he concentrated mainly on one race, but to race clean and still beat convicted dopers like Pantani, Ullrich, Hamilton etc is the best feel-good sports story of the last 10 years! It's incredible!

Indeed, I think that covers all bases.

Dictionary wrote:

in·cred·i·ble
   /ɪnˈkrɛdəbəl/ Show Spelled[in-kred-uh-buhl] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
so extraordinary as to seem impossible: incredible speed.
2.
not credible; hard to believe; unbelievable: The plot of the book is incredible.

snollup

MrCreosote wrote: »

Lance all the way!

Sure, he concentrated mainly on one race, but to race clean and still beat convicted dopers like Pantani, Ullrich, Hamilton etc is the best feel-good sports story of the last 10 years! It's incredible!

-1

Wibbs

A.N. Other

I'd put any number of cyclists above armstrong. Merckx at the top and n mistake. Moser, Anquetil, Coppi, Hinault, our own Kelly(By far the best rider to never win the TdF and WC IMHO). That list there were all round consistent monsters on the bike compared to LA. They also cycled more races. Their workload was off the scale by comparison.

TBH I would be dubious of records after the appearance of EPO and the like. While doping of some form or another has always followed the peloton(Anquetil was impressively honest about it) it was of dubious enough performance benefit. Corticoids? Help in recovery, but speeds dont go up. Amphetamines? Get the blood up for battle, but also more likely to blow out or even die. Blood doping in its various forms gives a huge advantage. I would be pretty sure that if a brilliant all rounder like Kelly had such "advantages" he would have decimated the field in the TdF. Someone like Merckx? Sweet jesus. Motorbike time. For me anyway the "hero" riders of the EPO era to today while impressive to watch lost their gloss for me.

Wibbs

A.N. Other

MrCreosote wrote: »

Lance all the way!

Sure, he concentrated mainly on one race, but to race clean and still beat convicted dopers like Pantani, Ullrich, Hamilton etc is the best feel-good sports story of the last 10 years! It's incredible!

ednwireland

A.N. Other

Junior wrote: »

And as if you thought gut instinct wasn't enough to base this decision on, check out the virtual musette's posting on this topic and the reasoning and maths behind it..


http://thegrupetto.squarespace.com/posts/category/the-top-25-cyclists-of-the-modern-era

that list seems about right to me !

couldnt disagree with that at all

RobFowl

A.N. Other

ednwireland wrote: »

that list seems about right to me !

couldnt disagree with that at all

http://thegrupetto.squarespace.com/p...the-modern-era

My only quibble with that list is I'd put Kelly above Van Looy. They ranked him higher solely due to hs worlds wins but Kelly coming from a small country never had a decent sized team to support him so was always as a disadvantage there.

(Honourable exception for the super team of 1987 where Alan McCormick, Paul Kimmage, Martin Early, Kelly and Roche rode their socks off and were the best and most tactically astute team that day)

GlennaMaddy

dekbhoy wrote: »

ya couldnt genuinely put Armstrongs name up there unless like the cycling authorities ya choose to ignore the fact the man used performance enhancing drugs

Merckx tested positive, Armstrong hasn't tested positive so far.

As much as I admire Merckx's huge record of wins outside the TdF and the style of each of those wins, I have to give my vote to Armstrong as much as I can't stand the man and believe he's used 'the stuff'. Even though he focused on nothing but the TdF there are few (if any) who would have won as many if they had the same single-mindedness as LA.

King Kelly is still the greatest in my book, but of course I'm biased like most other Irish cyclists.

Lumen

GlennaMaddy wrote: »

Armstrong hasn't tested positive so far.

Yes he has - cortisone in 1999. And then there's that stuff about the research re-test.

Armstrong has never been sanctioned for doping.

ednwireland

A.N. Other

GlennaMaddy wrote: »

Merckx tested positive, Armstrong hasn't tested positive so far.

As much as I admire Merckx's huge record of wins outside the TdF and the style of each of those wins, I have to give my vote to Armstrong as much as I can't stand the man and believe he's used 'the stuff'. Even though he focused on nothing but the TdF there are few (if any) who would have won as many if they had the same single-mindedness as LA.

complete utter BS most riders never had that luxury thats why they didnt do it i'm sure if you 'd given some riders the opportunity they would have done exactly the same (its just armstrong was able to sell the concept and get his team built around one race a year).

i dont expect to see contador win as mant tdf's cos he seems to want to ride and win more than one race a year

iregk

A.N. Other

The fact of the matter is this. Mercks and a lot of others mentioned rode in an era when cycling was cycling. Pure and simple, there may have been performance enhancers and such like but it was cycling.

Now Lance occupies a world where cycling like most other professional sport is a multinational branded corporation ruled by advertisers and tv schedules. A positive test for Lance is such a detremental prospect from a financial point of view to the governing bodies that it simply can't happen.

Jawgap

A.N. Other

Why does the debate about greatness come down to wins?

To quote Yoda - "“Ohhh. Great warrior.Wars not make one great.”

RobFowl

A.N. Other

Jawgap wrote: »

Why does the debate about greatness come down to wins?

To quote Yoda - "“Ohhh. Great warrior.Wars not make one great.”

I suppose that means Jacky Durand is your choice then :rolleyes:

ednwireland

A.N. Other

RobFowl wrote: »

I suppose that means Jacky Durand is your choice then :rolleyes:

voeckler nftw

Jawgap wrote: »

Why does the debate about greatness come down to wins?

To quote Yoda - "“Ohhh. Great warrior.Wars not make one great.”

and wtf does yoda know about cycling bet the short arse cant even ride a bike, have you ever seen yoda on a bike .... have you !

petethedrummer

RobFowl wrote: »

I suppose that means Jacky Durand is your choice then :rolleyes:

Wim Vansevenant surely.

bbosco

It's irrational and completely wrong on many levels but the cyclist I think of first in terms of inspiration is Claudio Chiapucci. I remember watching the Sestriere stage of the TdF in 1992 and being absolutely enthralled. This is what cycling is all about: blood-sweat-and-tears-stained epicness, boiling hot sun, frenzied fans, massive mountains, the lone, exhausted escapee, pain etched on his face, on his own all day being hunted down by the best cyclists in the world. I was in tears by the end. That stage is my favourite bit of cycling ever (I adore Sean Kelly but I never got to experience his wins in the same way probably because of a lack of tv coverage). The fact that Chiapucci was massive gob****e doesn't change that for some strange reason .
So, my vote for greatest cyclist ever? Errrrrr.....Claudio Chiapucci.

StaggerLee

Junior wrote: »

And as if you thought gut instinct wasn't enough to base this decision on, check out the virtual musette's posting on this topic and the reasoning and maths behind it..


http://thegrupetto.squarespace.com/posts/category/the-top-25-cyclists-of-the-modern-era

Don't know much about a fair few of these, I'd agree with Eddy Merckx at 1, he did it all in his era, you cant ask for more.

Why did they use a picture of Dave Fanning for 12. Louison Bobet, France (1947-1961)??

Jawgap

A.N. Other

RobFowl wrote: »

I suppose that means Jacky Durand is your choice then :rolleyes:

was he not done for doping? I voted for Eddy - I would've voted for Sean K, but it wasn't an option.

ednwireland wrote: »

.....

and wtf does yoda know about cycling bet the short arse cant even ride a bike, have you ever seen yoda on a bike .... have you !

Apparently Yoda was a demon cyclist but in the 1977 Giro, he blasted the leading pack out of his way, unfortunately at the subsequent hearing into the incident the Jedi mind trick only worked on two of the officials and he was banned anyway. He subsequently retired to the US where he met an up and coming filmaker called George.

Frankly, I find your lack of faith disturbing.........:)

barrabus

A.N. Other

I see I managed to vote for all 3.
silly silly software.....

L'Enfer du Nord

A.N. Other

Merchx for me-
And this video of the 1973 world championships is why.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRt-tXSCaqc

He’s beaten into forth by Grimoldi, Martens and Ocana.

You’d never see Armstrong (post cancer) in that position, because he’d never put himself in that position. He only ever entered races he was very confident of winning or as preparation. In effect The Tour and a few 1 week warm-up races. He’s like a Tennis player who only wins Wimbledon and a few other grass court tournaments.
How can Armstrong be the greatest road racer in history when he hardly ever took part in the world championship road race?
(I know he won it once)
PS- Many of Armstrong's team mates and nearly all his key rivals have be sanctioned for drugs use. Guilt by assocaition, I'm afraid so. To me he's like a Tony Soprano type figure who has never done time.

sxt

If a small sized man like Contador can beat a champion time trial specialist like Fabian Cancellara, after a very hard mountain stage the day before...then Contador should be considered one of the best ever , and he has many years ahead of him to proove this...

GlennaMaddy

ednwireland wrote: »

I'm sure if you 'd given some riders the opportunity they would have done exactly the same.
...

your wrong, in fact, that's complete utter BS

blorg

A.N. Other

Armstrong, no question. Greatest cyclist, definitely. Greatest athlete full stop. Greatest human being? I certainly can't think of a greater one.

RobFowl

A.N. Other

blorg wrote: »

Armstrong, no question. Greatest cyclist, definitely. Greatest athlete full stop. Greatest human being? I certainly can't think of a greater one.

Mandela
Ghandi
Einstein
J.C.

None of them could ride off road down a col at 50kph+ and keep control.
Never saw any of them in yellow either.
Not one would say "Pas de cadeau"

E@gle.

Ricarado Ricco

mcgratheoin

A.N. Other

sxt wrote: »

after a very hard mountain stage the day before....

The harder the stage the more chance Contador has of beating the TT specialists.

For what it's worth, the eurosport commentators on the Paris-Roubaix were adamant that Cancellara is the greatest all round cyclist of this generation - no mention of LA.

Anyway, aside from 7 TdF in a row he's done relatively nothing - Indurain did 5 in a row and you'd be laughed at if you even considered him in a GOAT conversation. The only reason LA is even considered is because
(a) he's an American and English speaker
(b) cycling is not as big in English speaking countries as the rest of Europe
(c) his own PR has convinced people that the tour is the only race that matters - back in Merckx' time the tour wasn't even that important.

ROK ON

Merckx.

For the simple reason that he never entered a sportif to train for the Tour de France.
Also, putting a placing in the Tour de Gila (or whatever the **** it is) on your palmares is simnply embarrassing.

redmenace1

A.N. Other

Eddy Merckx for me everytime.

A fierce man when the racing was harder & stages harder (distance wise, poorer equipment, little or no rest days etc on the Grand tours)

Lacked the sophistication too and techical expertise which aides all riders nowadays.

Didn't he ride most of the Grand Tours & classics each year. Wow, huge respect for any rider of any era who does that, let alone anyone who dominates as much as Merckx did.

Honourable mention for Hinault too.

iregk

A.N. Other

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Indurain did 5 in a row and you'd be laughed at if you even considered him in a GOAT conversation.

Thats a bit of a stretch now in fairness. Many would place Indurain in their top few. Certainly I would anyway, just not on the top spot.

SACH Central

Is this thread for real?

I think even if you asked l.a himself, egotistical ba$tard that he is, he wouldn't say he was better than Merckx.

Maybe the poll should be called: Gobsheens who think l.a is better than Merckx.

SACH Central

Maybe we should all do the same as @barrabus has done, vote in all 3 categories!