UFC 116 Discussion ****SPOILERS INSIDE****

cowzerp

Baaaa warning has been giving and next time you do it will be a ban-it is against the charter-no proof of him been on the juice so leave it out,

Rovert and everyone else report the post if you have a problem, stop back seat Modding..

YamaMotoYama

I loved the Carwin fight... shame he punched himself out!
Fingers crossed for a rematch and different result.

nacho libre

well after watching this fight again. I would still tip Carwin to win a rematch. This is not to take away from what Brock Lesnar did. He beat a guy who I and many others thought would knock him out. So fair play to those who thought otherwise. Reading some of the comments it does seem as if no matter what he does for some it'll never be enough because he was the upstart who did fake pro-wrestling. I can only admire the man for what he has achieved in his mma career.

as to his next opponent, while he should be physically stronger than Velasquez and have the size adavantage, this guy seems like a better techincal fighter than Carwin and is extremely tough. so i don't think it'll be a routine defense

Anthony Walsh

Can't wait to see Brock fight again. I like Brock as a fighter, he came in to prove that he wasn't just a pro wrestler and fair dues so far. I do have to say though I dont think Brock has had any real dominant victories (this is not to bad mouth him) although I think he will evolve as a fighter and maybe see a well rounded fighter. Imagine what he would have been like with out the years lay-off. As for Carwin I don't think he expected Lesnar's chin to be so tough but really did anybody think Brock would take that many shots, and if you did who told you he had an adamantium skeleton :P. I think Carwin will take the loss gracefully but I would hate to be the next man to stand acroos from him in the octagon. He will come back way better, definitely work on his cardio and maybe his take down defense.

If these two ever meet again in the octagon it will be an epic battle

scudzilla

Never liked Brock when he came into the UFC, mainly because of his WWF background, was real happy when Mir beat him, thought he was an arrogant dick after 100, but now i'm beginning to realise that he's a very very talented guy and has a great future in the sport.

From many people that know him, or have met him, they only have good things to say, the Brock in real life is not the Brock you see with Rogan after the fight.

And the main point is that this thread alone has over 1,100 posts and 18,000 views!!! Imagine most other forums around the world being the same, and all talking about 1 man, BROCK LESNER. Love him or hate him he's sure bringing UFC into the mainstream even further.

I'm now excited for the first time in ages about a UFC fight, Brock v Cain

Junior D

cowzerp wrote: »

Brock sells PPV to WWE fanboys so they want to keep him there as long as possible-leaves a sickening taste in my mouth.

An absolutely ridiculous comment to make IMO, I had to laugh when I saw it. I'm not a Brock fan by any measure and believe he is favoured, being handed a title shot so quickly shows this. But there is no doubting he is a quality fighter and thats the reason they want to keep him. Not because he's a former WWE member

rovert

Junior D wrote: »

An absolutely ridiculous comment to make IMO, I had to laugh when I saw it. I'm not a Brock fan by any measure and believe he is favoured, being handed a title shot so quickly shows this. But there is no doubting he is a quality fighter and thats the reason they want to keep him. Not because he's a former WWE member

Not mention the war, Junior D. Ive tried reasoning with cowzerp and he wont listen.

chopperbyrne

Anthony Walsh wrote: »

I do have to say though I dont think Brock has had any real dominant victories

He dominated Min-Soo Kim, Heath Herring and Frank Mir.

Even in his loss to Frank Mir he was dominant and just made a silly rookie mistake and got subbed by a BJJ black belt.

El_Drago

It's a sad state of affairs when so many MMA fans (and practitioners) can't get over once pro-wrestlers making a successful transition into MMA. Perhaps it was warranted when Lesnar hadn't proven himself but now it's utter bull crap. The guy IS the champ and he's walked through some of the best heavyweights on the way to doing it. If that doesn't prove that he's a fighter then I dunno what does
God only knows what BS the haters will come up with if Bobby Lashley is ever to fight Lesnar for the UFC title. A universal "**** Hemorrhage" that someone referred to in another thread may apply in that instance.

seadnamac

Did anyone end up finding a video of the press conference that doesn't freeze when it gets to Chris Leben?

Mark Hamill

I'm slightly baffled at all the love Brock is getting for this win from some quarters.
In the first round, Brock showed that he doesn't like getting hit at all. Look at the fight at 1 minute exactly in the first round, Brock throws a barely there punch, covers up before even getting hit, gets upercut through his hands , then back pedals, bends over for some reason, takes show shots against the cage while bent over, manages to push Carwin away from him, knees Carwin, then bends over and back pedals to the cage again for no apparent reason, Carwins sprawls on him and gets some shots in, before Brock disengages and runs away across the cage (swiping his arm around like he was saying "get away form me"), gets cornered again, takes a shot and sits down. He then got dominated by Carwin for nearly three minutes before finally getting back up and hugging him against the cage for the remaing one minute. It was quite embarressing to watch actually.
In the second round, Carwin looked like he was hit with horse tranquilizers or something, that was how tired and slow he moved, and when Brock eventually took him down, its still took him about a minute to get into mount and finish the arm triangle, despite Carwin never once attempting to close his legs into a proper half guard
Brock was a little lucky that the ref didn't stop the fight in the initial flurry of shots (I dont actually think the ref should have stopped the fight, its just that I've seen fights stopped in similar situations) and that Carwin actually started to gass about 25 seconds after getting Brock on his back (about the time that Brock kicks him away the first time, after which you can see Carwin isn't stricking as fast nor as hard).
Overall this win for Brock was as much a result of Carwin not actually being a great fighter as it was anything Brock brought ot the cage. Carwins gassing early and his inability to set up his gnp properly (at one point in the first round, with 2:44 left on the clock, Carwin is in Brocks very loose half guard, with Brocks left arm under his leg. I thought at that point, Carwin has won, all he needs to do is lean on Brocks arm with his hips, push his head back with his left hand and wail on him with his right, but when he tried to move Brocks head back, he let out the arm, so Brock ended up being able to defend properly, really beginnerish mistake) are what won the fight for Brock.

The Freeman

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I'm slightly baffled at all the love Brock is getting for this win from some quarters.
In the first round, Brock showed that he doesn't like getting hit at all. Look at the fight at 1 minute exactly in the first round, Brock throws a barely there punch, covers up before even getting hit, gets upercut through his hands , then back pedals, bends over for some reason, takes show shots against the cage while bent over, manages to push Carwin away from him, knees Carwin, then bends over and back pedals to the cage again for no apparent reason, Carwins sprawls on him and gets some shots in, before Brock disengages and runs away across the cage (swiping his arm around like he was saying "get away form me"), gets cornered again, takes a shot and sits down. He then got dominated by Carwin for nearly three minutes before finally getting back up and hugging him against the cage for the remaing one minute. It was quite embarressing to watch actually.
In the second round, Carwin looked like he was hit with horse tranquilizers or something, that was how tired and slow he moved, and when Brock eventually took him down, its still took him about a minute to get into mount and finish the arm triangle, despite Carwin never once attempting to close his legs into a proper half guard
Brock was a little lucky that the ref didn't stop the fight in the initial flurry of shots (I dont actually think the ref should have stopped the fight, its just that I've seen fights stopped in similar situations) and that Carwin actually started to gass about 25 seconds after getting Brock on his back (about the time that Brock kicks him away the first time, after which you can see Carwin isn't stricking as fast nor as hard).
Overall this win for Brock was as much a result of Carwin not actually being a great fighter as it was anything Brock brought ot the cage. Carwins gassing early and his inability to set up his gnp properly (at one point in the first round, with 2:44 left on the clock, Carwin is in Brocks very loose half guard, with Brocks left arm under his leg. I thought at that point, Carwin has won, all he needs to do is lean on Brocks arm with his hips, push his head back with his left hand and wail on him with his right, but when he tried to move Brocks head back, he let out the arm, so Brock ended up being able to defend properly, really beginnerish mistake) are what won the fight for Brock.

shane carwin admitted that his conditioning was not tested at all and his body closed down after the first round(he said he wanted to throw in the towel there and then as he knew something was wrong).
even when brock was on the ground on top of him moving from half to full guard he wasn't even defending it which is basic stuff, the submision triange that took him out was easily defended by 'answering the phone', thus protecting the artery in his neck that would make him tap.

his doctor stated that he may be diagnosed with bronchitis very soon...

http://twitter.com/ShaneCarwin


actually i take that back mate he stated 9 hours ago that he blew his wad in the first round.

he i smy favourite hw and i do really think he will be champ when he gets a second shot, i don't think jds and valasquez are big enough to compete with ether of the SUPER HEAVY WEIGHTS



p.s. i think there should be 2 heavy weight categories

Niall0

The Freeman wrote: »

p.s. i think there should be 2 heavy weight categories

A good point, 205-265 is a really big gap.

Mark Hamill

The Freeman wrote: »

shane carwin admitted that his conditioning was not tested at all and his body closed down after the first round(he said he wanted to throw in the towel there and then as he knew something was wrong).

He should have tested his cardio in training, not assumed that he wouldn't need it, thats a bad training ethos (either his own, or his fight camps)

The Freeman wrote: »

even when brock was on the ground on top of him moving from half to full guard he wasn't even defending it which is basic stuff, the submision triange that took him out was easily defended by 'answering the phone', thus protecting the artery in his neck that would make him tap.

Even just crossing his legs and closing his half gurd would have slowed Brock down.

The Freeman wrote: »

he i smy favourite hw and i do really think he will be champ when he gets a second shot, i don't think jds and valasquez are big enough to compete with ether of the SUPER HEAVY WEIGHTS


p.s. i think there should be 2 heavy weight categories

Yeah, I wonder why they dont split the heavy weight into two? An extra belt would mean more title fights during the year (which means more revenue). Maybe there is an issue with the number of good, heavy/super heavy fighters (dont want a category full of butterbeans)

The Freeman

Niall0 wrote: »

A good point, 205-265 is a really big gap.

ya a 235 should exist, its a big gap.
we will see how valasquez v brock turns out but there is a a sizeable differance between the two guys

heavy weight and super heavy weight, there is enough talent in heavyweight these days to warrant both weight classes. there was no point a few years ago when ya had tim sylvia/arlovski etc.
but when ya have ubereem coming over in a fight or two it will get really interesting.

MY GOD COULD YOU IMAGINE BROCK/CARWIN/UBEREEM all in title contention in the ufc!!!

Clive

The Freeman wrote: »

the submision triange that took him out was easily defended by 'answering the phone', thus protecting the artery in his neck that would make him tap.

"Answering the phone" might buy a few seconds, but against a good guy with a locked in arm triangle, they're still going to sleep.

The Freeman

Clive wrote: »

"Answering the phone" might buy a few seconds, but against a good guy with a locked in arm triangle, they're still going to sleep.

i hear ya mate, for some reason the big nog v randy fight came to mind there when randy used that technique perfectly when the two got to the ground.

another great fight too!

MrStuffins

Originally reported by MMAJunkie

UFC heavyweight champion Brock Lesnar ($400,000) and main-card winners Chris Leben ($86,000) and Chris Lytle ($52,000) were the top earners at this past weekend's UFC 116 event.

MMAjunkie.com recently requested and today received the list of disclosed paydays from the Nevada State Athletic Commission.

The total disclosed payroll for the July 3 show was $923,000.

Other top earners from the evening include winners Stephan Bonnar ($50,000) and Kendall Grove ($50,000), main-card loser Yoshihiro Akiyama ($45,000) and main-event loser Shane Carwin ($40,000).

UFC 116 took place at the MGM Grand Garden Arena in Las Vegas and aired live on Spike TV and then pay-per-view.

The full payouts included:

Brock Lesnar: $400,000 (no win bonus)
def. Shane Carwin: $40,000

Chris Leben: $86,000 ($43,000 win bonus)
def. Yoshihiro Akiyama: $45,000

Chris Lytle: $52,000 ($26,000 win bonus)
def. Matt Brown: $10,000

Stephan Bonnar: $50,000 ($25,000 win bonus)
def. Krzysztof Soszynski: $10,000

George Sotiropoulos: $24,000 ($12,000 win bonus)
def. Kurt Pellegrino: $25,000

Brendan Schuab: $20,000 ($10,000 win bonus)
def. Chris Tuchscherer: $12,000

Ricardo Romero: $16,000 ($8,000 win bonus)
def. Seth Petruzelli: $10,000

Kendall Grove: $50,000 ($25,000 win bonus)
def. Goran Reljic: $5,000

Gerald Harris: $20,000 ($10,000 win bonus)
def. David Branch: $6,000

Daniel Roberts: $12,000 ($6,000 win bonus)
def. Forrest Petz: $6,000

Jon Madsen: $16,000 ($8,000 win bonus)
def. Karlos Vemola: $8,000

Now, the usual disclaimer: The figures do not include deductions for items such as insurance, licenses and taxes. Additionally, the figures do not include money paid by sponsors, which can oftentimes be a substantial portion of a fighter's income. They also do not include any other "locker room" or special bonuses the UFC oftentimes pays.

For example, as previously reported, UFC officials handed out $75,000 UFC 116 bonuses to Harris (Knockout of the Night), Lesnar (Submission of the Night), and Leben, Akiyama, Bonnar and Soszynski (Fights of the Night).

In other words, the above figures are simply base salaries reported to the commission and do not reflect entire compensation packages for the event.

.

Gunsfortoys

Absolute joke of a pay cheque that Carwin got compared to Brock.

The Freeman

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

Absolute joke of a pay cheque that Carwin got compared to Brock.

they are only the disclosed wages to the media, dana always gives out big pay checks to the guys in the dressing room afterwards.

here is a video of him stating it straight after 116...

http://www.sherdog.com/videos/recent/White-Breaks-Down-Lesnar-Carwin-Future-Plans-2522

rovert

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

Absolute joke of a pay cheque that Carwin got compared to Brock.

Even with what Freeman rightfully said. Come on who is the draw there?

Leben has raked in some mad cash recently. Fair play to the guy!

I'm sure Carwin got some sick sponsorship money, plus his profile is raised.

Professey Chin

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I'm sure Carwin got some sick sponsorship money, plus his profile is raised.

Pretty sure he got sponsored by Bud Light in the lead up to this fight.
Probably a little dig at Lesnar after UFC 100 :pac:

Ultimate Chin

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

Pretty sure he got sponsored by Bud Light in the lead up to this fight.
Probably a little dig at Lesnar after UFC 100 :pac:

haha! would have been an awesome winner's speech if he won.

rovert

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Leben has raked in some mad cash recently. Fair play to the guy!

You just know that Leben could probably write his own bonus cheque for being a company man and helping them out of a bind.

MrStuffins

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Leben has raked in some mad cash recently. Fair play to the guy!

And he earned it too! What a 2 weeks the guy had, completely turned his career around!

The Freeman

MrStuffins wrote: »

And he earned it too! What a 2 weeks the guy had, completely turned his career around!

big time, his game and attitude has completley changed for the good.

Butch Cassidy

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/7/6/1555345/skill-vs-technique-and-the-little

A lot has been made about the skill - or lack thereof - in the heavyweight title fight between Brock Lesnar and Shane Carwin at UFC 116. Leading up to the event, Josh Barnett summed up this argument when he claimed that Lesnar and Carwin wouldn't be as successful as they've been if they weren't so big. And Josh is 100% correct.

I take issue with it, though. When people credit Lesnar and Carwin's success on their size (or when they call for the inane 225-pound cruiserweight class under the guise of "fairness"), they fail to understand a critical fact: being big is a skill.

It's not easy being big. You have to ingest enough calories to sustain your weight. You have to work that much harder in the gym to maintain your musculature. Becoming a 275 pound athletic monster isn't something that just happens.

And, as we saw on Saturday night, carrying that size has its drawbacks. It's going to be very difficult for someone like Shane Carwin to outcardio a Cain Velasquez, no matter how much time he puts in the gym. Without severely changing his complexion, it simply becomes a physiology equation: Shane requires that much more oxygen through his system to maintain effectiveness.

The point is this: being bigger or stronger or faster shouldn't be seen as a knock against a fighter. "Skill" isn't just about your martial arts technique. It's about your overall package, size and strength included.

With that said, leap past the jump so I can show you all the little details that caught my eye during the Lesnar/Carwin bout.

Ufc_116_button_medium

Star-divide

Carwinparry_medium

This clip usually goes on longer with Carwin landing his uppercut left and Lesnar stumbling back into the cage. This ignores the very awesome parry the Carwin utilizes with his left land to block Brock's straight right. This is something I'm more akin to seeing from Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida, not hulking 265 pound bruisers.

Lesnartakedown_medium

Say what you will about Carwin's level of exhaustion at this point (and Shane, I'm sorry, but "full body cramp" sounds like gassing out to me), but he had no shot defending this takedown. Brock throws a left jab (so much for that southpaw talk) which gets Carwin into counter punch mode. The only problem is that by the time Carwin's thrown his straight right, Lesnar has already changed levels for the double leg. Also notice Brock readjusting and getting deeper on the double to finish.

Lesnarpass_medium

This isn't a minor detail, but I think this whole sequence has really been undersold in the wake of the event. First off, the quickness in Brock's positional movement (and again, regardless of Shane's condition here) is very scary for a man his size. What impressed me most, though, was Brock's recognition of the arm triangle. He set this up while in half-guard when Shane allowed his left arm to dangle. Brock cinched up the arm and moved into mount. Here's where he impressed me again. First, he committed to the submission instead of posturing to throw punches. That shows me he's confident in his jiu jitsu game (or at least this aspect of it). Second, instead of jumping right into side control to finish, he makes sure he establishes himself and the hold before jumping over. That sort of patience is huge.

Lesnarcoaching_medium

This is a little conjecture on my part. I'm not sure who or what Brock is looking at, but it damn sure appears as if he's taking advice from his corner. I'm a huge mark for teams who do this well. Being able to communicate effectively is a tremendous value-add for a fighter. It's one thing to shout combo numbers or "Keep your hands up!" It's another thing to correct a flaw in technique that leads to a finish. And hey, if Brock knew how to adjust on his own, that's another feather in his cap

Butch Cassidy

Niall0 wrote: »

A good point, 205-265 is a really big gap.

It'd probably benfit the likes of Mir. It'd be easier for him to drop down to a weight class just above LightHW.

Butch Cassidy

The Freeman wrote: »

they are only the disclosed wages to the media, dana always gives out big pay checks to the guys in the dressing room afterwards.

here is a video of him stating it straight after 116...

http://www.sherdog.com/videos/recent/White-Breaks-Down-Lesnar-Carwin-Future-Plans-2522

Wow, so he gives them a secret dropsy off the books afterwards? Interesting

rovert wrote: »

Come on who is the draw there?

I didn't know we were going back to wrestling analogies! Brock might be UFC's Hogan but not without credible opponents....

MrStuffins wrote: »

.

Still no way that was sub of the night but.

MrStuffins

Butch Cassidy wrote: »

Still no way that was sub of the night but.

Chris Lytle was robbed on Sub of the Night IMO!

Mark Hamill

www.bloodyelbow.com article wrote:

I take issue with it, though. When people credit Lesnar and Carwin's success on their size (or when they call for the inane 225-pound cruiserweight class under the guise of "fairness"), they fail to understand a critical fact: being big is a skill.

Knitting is also a skill, doesn't mean its going to win in mma. Brock being bigger than Carwin didn't win him this fight. Brocks cardio and athlestisism won him this fight (well, his cardio and all of Carwins mistakes). And that cardio athletisism is something Brock has almost inspite of his bulk.

www.bloodyelbow.com article wrote:

The point is this: being bigger or stronger or faster shouldn't be seen as a knock against a fighter. "Skill" isn't just about your martial arts technique. It's about your overall package, size and strength included.

Skill is about how you use techniques in relation to your natural attributes.

www.bloodyelbow.com article wrote:

Say what you will about Carwin's level of exhaustion at this point (and Shane, I'm sorry, but "full body cramp" sounds like gassing out to me), but he had no shot defending this takedown. Brock throws a left jab (so much for that southpaw talk) which gets Carwin into counter punch mode. The only problem is that by the time Carwin's thrown his straight right, Lesnar has already changed levels for the double leg. Also notice Brock readjusting and getting deeper on the double to finish.

The thing that sticks out to me the most in this is how after Brock throws his left jab and changes level, his head is looking straight down to avoid the counter punch. Quite a silly thing to do.

www.bloodyelbow.com article wrote:

This isn't a minor detail, but I think this whole sequence has really been undersold in the wake of the event. First off, the quickness in Brock's positional movement (and again, regardless of Shane's condition here) is very scary for a man his size.

To be honest, its not like Carwin was defending half guard at all during the time he was on his back, it took Brock about thirty seconds to actually start making the transition, so nothinh hugely impressive for me.

www.bloodyelbow.com article wrote:

What impressed me most, though, was Brock's recognition of the arm triangle. He set this up while in half-guard when Shane allowed his left arm to dangle.

This is hard to read actually. It could be case that Brock realised that Carwin was making no attempts to defend half guard and so decided to set up the arm triangle before transition to better hold Carwin while moving, and that would be a good bit of jitz on Brocks behalf. However, it could also be the case that Brock didn't even realise that Carwin wasn't holding him with his legs and just decided to go for the arm triangle, because like most jitz newbie heavyweights, he assumed he was strong enough to pull it off despite being in half guard (or didn't realise half guard would actually slow it down).

www.bloodyelbow.com article wrote:

Brock cinched up the arm and moved into mount. Here's where he impressed me again. First, he committed to the submission instead of posturing to throw punches. That shows me he's confident in his jiu jitsu game (or at least this aspect of it). Second, instead of jumping right into side control to finish, he makes sure he establishes himself and the hold before jumping over. That sort of patience is huge.

This is another thing where it could be a case of looking at Brock with rose tinted spectacles. Its well possible he was tired and didn't want to expend the effort of sitting up and striking and so went for an easy sub (probably one of the first he was shown, arm triangle would be one the first Id show to a huge wrestler like Brock). That said, my respect for Brock did go up loads after the second Mir fight when he showed that he could slow down and take his time when setting up gnp, so that could also be the case here.

baaaa

hisholinessnb wrote: »

"he curls up in a ball for three minutes and cries for his mommy"

This statement proves the point that people have a bias against Brock for who he is rather than what he does.

He took the punches, recovered to his feet, then in the second round became the UFC heavyweight champion.

"Cries for his mommy" indeed.

True you dont see other fighters on here being talked about like that. It is pseudo fighter basing is what it is.

baaaa wrote: »

He won cause Carwin exhausted himself beating the crap out of him in every faucet of the game.

I love this line of thinking that Carwin lost because he had no cardio therefore taking away credit from Brock. But you never people degrade fighter when they submit a guy because the other guy had inferior submission skills.

Also Carwin didnt beat the crap out of Brock, Brocks forearms maybe but that is it really on the ground.

rovert wrote: »

Also Carwin didnt beat the crap out of Brock, Brocks forearms maybe but that is it really on the ground.

Indeed,just the forearms.
You must have missed the first round where Carwin stuffed his takedowns,kneed him in the head and sent him literally running after an uppercut.

Lesnar himself said that there was a moment that he didn't know where he was.

Jayo_M wrote: »

Lesnar himself said that there was a moment that he didn't know where he was.

Yeah,after it he said that at one stage he was getting ready to be disappointed cause he thought it was gonna be stopped.
Sure he was grand though,just 2 sore forearms.It was all part of the plan.

baaaa wrote: »

Indeed,just the forearms.
You must have missed the first round where Carwin stuffed his takedowns,kneed him in the head and sent him literally running after an uppercut.

I guess you missed the second half of my sentence.

baaaa wrote: »

Yeah,after it he said that at one stage he was getting ready to be disappointed cause he thought it was gonna be stopped.
Sure he was grand though,just 2 sore forearms.It was all part of the plan.

Dont repeat last weekend's performance baaa please.

rovert wrote: »

I guess you missed the second half of my sentence.

The bit where you inserted "on the ground",no I saw that but ignored it.

hisholinessnb wrote: »

"he curls up in a ball for three minutes and cries for his mommy"

This statement proves the point that people have a bias against Brock for who he is rather than what he does.

He took the punches, recovered to his feet, then in the second round became the UFC heavyweight champion.

"Cries for his mommy" indeed.

Correction, he took the punches for nearly three minutes, recovered and pinned Carwin to the cage side for the remaining minute or so in the first round without attempting to take him down. He then beat a Carwin so gassed out that he might as well have been fighting a training manequin.

Once I saw the "cried for his mommy" comment I knew you weren't gonna give him any credit in fairness.

So he pinned Carwin to the cage for a minute without trying to take him down, so what?
Surely this was to allow himself to recover after the barrage from Carwin? If so then you must at least admit it was smart to do this?

rovert wrote: »

True you dont see other fighters on here being talked about like that. It is pseudo fighter basing is what it is.

Brock spent three minutes curled in ball on the ground, after paniced and having run away from getting hit (he even threw a hand back as he ran, like he was saying "get away from me"). When he finally gets up, he pins Carwin to the cage and holds hin there until the time runs out. Brock does not know how to deal with getting hit and jokingly saying "cryies for his mommy" is not an innacturate description for how he dealt with it.

rovert wrote: »

I love this line of thinking that Carwin lost because he had no cardio therefore taking away credit from Brock. But you never people degrade fighter when they submit a guy because the other guy had inferior submission skills.

Dont know about anyone else here, but I've never thought much of Mirs jitz skills. He seems quite lazy with his jitz and mostly gets away with it because heavy weights generally arent good on the ground. I thought he caught Brock in their first fight quite luckily and only finished because Brock didn't know what to do.

baaaa wrote: »

The bit where you inserted "on the ground",no I saw that but ignored it.

So lets just ignore each others points and say what we were going to say anyway then.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Correction, he took the punches for nearly three minutes, recovered and pinned Carwin to the cage side for the remaining minute or so in the first round without attempting to take him down. He then beat a Carwin so gassed out that he might as well have been fighting a training manequin.

Again I love the implication that somehow it is Brock's fault that Shane gassed.

Butch Cassidy

Brock did mention the head & arm triangle in the post-fight press conference. He pretty much said what you just did there that it was an easy hold he was shown early on.

rovert

Butch Cassidy wrote: »

Brock did mention the head & arm triangle in the post-fight press conference. He pretty much said what you just did there that it was an easy hold he was shown early on.

He said he worked on it for months, Couture was brought in to work on stuff like that from similar positions almost exclusively.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Brock spent three minutes curled in ball on the ground, after paniced and having run away from getting hit (he even threw a hand back as he ran, like he was saying "get away from me"). When he finally gets up, he pins Carwin to the cage and holds him there until the time runs out. Brock does not know how to deal with getting hit and jokingly saying "cryies for his mommy" is not an inaccurate description for how he dealt with it.

Once again people are actively discounting Carwins punching power here.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Dont know about anyone else here, but I've never thought much of Mirs jitz skills. He seems quite lazy with his jitz and mostly gets away with it because heavy weights generally arent good on the ground. I thought he caught Brock in their first fight quite luckily and only finished because Brock didn't know what to do.

Mark I’m fully open to correction on this but I don’t remember anyone being that sceptical of Mir's ground game on here before their second fight. That’s not to say I don't believe you nor was it silly to be that behind Mir as he was at his career best form. It seems to be en vogue to retroactively throw Mir under bus as a competitor on here lately.

seadnamac

Brock didn't like getting hit and ran away? Seriously, this is the most idiotic assessment of anything I have ever seen. I would seriously question the intelligence of anyone who goes along with statement. It sounds like a arguement a 12 year old would put forward to suit his pre conceived bias, ignoring the actual events that happened and the context in which they took place.

So he didn't want to stand and trade with Shane Carwin. Who the f*ck would want to strand and trade with Shane f*cking Carwin? It's a mixed martial arts fight and it's called a gameplan. He got hit and covered up the best he could. Even when covering up he was in a whole lot of trouble, so, if he hadn't have covered up, or 'ran away crying for his mommy' or whatever you want to call it, he probably would have been knocked out. But then, you see, he would have lost. He wanted to win and decided covering up and waiting was a better option. Evidently it was.

If that had been Randy Couture, or just about anyone else for that matter, in there, ye would be declaring him as a god. The amount of biased, non-objective reasoning being used here is f*cking ridiculous.

Mark Hamill

rovert wrote: »

He said he worked on it for months, Couture was brought in to work on stuff like that from similar positions almost exclusively.

Just to point out I'm not trying to badmouth Brock for setting this choke up and pulling it off. Like I said, it would be one of the first moves I'd show him and I would imagine he could use it well in his career. However I see little impressive in him pulling it off against a Carwin who barely resisted.

rovert wrote: »

Once again people are actively discounting Carwins punching power here.

All that punching power he used on Brocks arms you mean . Carwins intial punches were quite dangerous for Brock, but he almost punched himself out after thirty seconds, he was punching much slower and less regularly two minutes into the fight.

rovert wrote: »

Mark I’m fully open to correction on this but I don’t remember anyone being that sceptical of Mir's ground game on here before their second fight. That’s not to say I don't believe you nor was it silly to be that behind Mir as he was at his career best form. It seems to be en vogue to retroactively throw Mir under bus as a competitor on here lately.

Could well be the case. The way I saw his fights with Brock, I guessed he would win the first one because I assumed Brock had no ground game (in essence he won because Brock got excited and didnt wait to control him properly and set up real gnp) and I guessed he would loose the second fight assuming Brock lost the jitters and took his time (which he did, and my respect for Brock has gone up because of it).
Brock won his fight against Carwin and when all is said and done, I do think he deserved the win. But I still have yet to be impressed by him as a fighter.

Professey Chin

baaaa wrote: »

True you dont see other fighters on here being talked about like that. It is pseudo fighter basing is what it is........
Again I love the implication that somehow it is Brock's fault that Shane gassed.

Why do you quote and criticize yourself in this post?

rovert

I wrote that, cowerp cut and pasted it wrong with all the cut and pasting he had to do with the other thread.

Mark Hamill

seadnamac wrote: »

Brock didn't like getting hit and ran away? Seriously, this is the most idiotic assessment of anything I have ever seen. I would seriously question the intelligence of anyone who goes along with statement. It sounds like a arguement a 12 year old would put forward to suit his pre conceived bias, ignoring the actual events that happened and the context in which they took place.

I have the fight on my computer and have watched it several times, let me lead you through it.
(4.01 left on clock) Brock throws a light jab, sees Carwins hand come up, then crazy monkeys (buts his hands on his) but with his head facing down and get upercut for that mistake. His hands now leave his head and try to make space between him and Carwin. He bends right over to avoid the punches and backs right up the cage, where Carwin starts raining down shots.
(3.55 left on clock) Brock manages to catch hold of Carwin, disengages from the cage, gets a knee in, but then lets go of Carwin (all this while his head is bent down) and then backs back up to the cage again (I have no idea why he let go of Carwin, he could have fought for double unders, which would have stopped any further shots, the only thing I can think of is that Brock paniced) where Carwin sprawls aginst him and gets his own knee in.
(3.48 left on the clock) Brock disengages from Carwin, runs from the middle of one side of the octagon to the middle of the next side of the octagon (seriously at 3.57 remaining his right hand is flung towards Carwin as if to push him away, while his left holds onto the cage). He then gets hit once and sinks to his knees.
Brock did not like getting hit and he did everything a beginner would do when getting hit (panic, look down, run away).

seadnamac wrote: »

So he didn't want to stand and trade with Shane Carwin. Who the f*ck would want to strand and trade with Shane f*cking Carwin?

Well Brock Lesnar wanted to stand and trade, up until the point where he got hit.

seadnamac wrote: »

It's a mixed martial arts fight and it's called a gameplan. He got hit and covered up the best he could. Even when covering up he was in a whole lot of trouble, so, if he hadn't have covered up, or 'ran away crying for his mommy' or whatever you want to call it, he probably would have been knocked out. But then, you see, he would have lost. He wanted to win and decided covering up and waiting was a better option. Evidently it was.

He had oppurtunity to clinch with Carwin, at 3.55 remaining in the first round, Brock stops Carwins initially flurry at the side of the cage by grabbing him, bringing him away from the cage wall, kneeing him, but instead of continuing to clinch and maybe securing double unders, he panics and backs up to the wall again. No gameplan, just panic followed by three and half minutes of survival mode.

seadnamac wrote: »

If that had been Randy Couture, or just about anyone else for that matter, in there, ye would be declaring him as a god.

No, not really.

seadnamac wrote: »

The amount of biased, non-objective reasoning being used here is f*cking ridiculous.

Describing Brocks performance as anything but mediocre (and a bit lucky) is ridiculous.

The Freeman

i think it boils down to this...


-brock does not like getting punched in the face....still!

-he has a chin

-needs to work alot on his stand up with welsch...alot!

-got his ass handed to him in the first round, after all he was in the fetal position for close to 2 mins without defending himself(i doubt that was in the game plan)

-is very lucky that shanes body shut up shop coming in to the second round as he could not take him down.

- when brock noticed that he could not take shane down and got punched for the first time he knew he was in serious trouble.

-lesnar is a champion/winner in all and not a fighter

-if shane had 5 rounds in him, which i expect him to have in the rematch when it comes up, brock is/would have been in ALOT OF TROUBLE.


i am looking forward to carwin fighting his next fight as i do think he will take care of everyone in the division in due course once he gets his body sorted(i do think the gassing is strange as his trainer and rashad his training partner were saying he goes for 5 rounds easily)

sherdog said a few days ago that he is to fight duffee next, which he denied on twitter this morning, it has not been confirmed who he is fighting yet as his doctor stated that his bronchitis needs to clear up first.


if i was cain valasquez ringside after the first round i would be smiling at how 'huma' brock loooked, now he looks beatable and others in the division are not as afraid. looking forward to can v brock in a few months hopefully. dana came out and stated it could happen in sept

rovert

The Freeman wrote: »

-got his ass handed to him in the first round, after all he was in the fetal position for close to 2 mins without defending himself(i doubt that was in the game plan)

Untrue, the fight would have been stopped if that wasnt the case.

The Freeman wrote: »

-lesnar is a champion/winner in all and not a fighter

This sentence is simply amazing considering all he has accomplished even getting into the cage Sunday.

hisholinessnb

"f shane had 5 rounds in him, which i expect him to have in the rematch when it comes up, brock is/would have been in ALOT OF TROUBLE"

Gonna be a huge jump from having a half round in him to having 5 rounds in him.

cowzerp

rovert wrote: »

I wrote that, cowerp cut and pasted it wrong with all the cut and pasting he had to do with the other thread.

Sorry for messing up that people-when i was moving the 10 threads to here i hit merge instead of move and that happened!

rovert

hisholinessnb wrote: »

Gonna be a huge jump from having a half round in him to having 5 rounds in him.

Sure if he had another set of arms he would have won :pac:

JJayoo

-brock does not like getting punched in the face....still!

Has there ever been a fighter who likes getting punched in the face :rolleyes:

Professey Chin

JJayoo wrote: »

Has there ever been a fighter who likes getting punched in the face :rolleyes:

Cabbage Correira seemed to like it a bit

MrStuffins

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

Cabbage Correira seemed to like it a bit

In fairness, he didnt have a head! He had a block of concrete on his neck!

Mark Hamill

JJayoo wrote: »

Has there ever been a fighter who likes getting punched in the face :rolleyes:

:rolleyes:
When we say someone doesn't like getting hit in the face, we dont mean literally (as obviously no-one does), we are talking about how someone reacts to getting hit. A person who we say doesn't like getting hit will panic when hit, probably flail their arms around their head to protect themselves and , if standing, run away. The alternative person, who stays calm under attack and counters or defends in such a way that stops the strikes (eg goes into clinch), is simply described as having a good chin or being a calm fighter. I thought this was obvious. Maybe you are just new to MMA and just dont know the lingo.

The Freeman

Mark Hamill wrote: »

:rolleyes:
When we say someone doesn't like getting hit in the face, we dont mean literally (as obviously no-one does), we are talking about how someone reacts to getting hit. A person who we say doesn't like getting hit will panic when hit, probably flail their arms around their head to protect themselves and , if standing, run away. The alternative person, who stays calm under attack and counters or defends in such a way that stops the strikes (eg goes into clinch), is simply described as having a good chin or being a calm fighter. I thought this was obvious. Maybe you are just new to MMA and just dont know the lingo.

thank you mark,just took the words out of my mouth.