UFC 116 Discussion ****SPOILERS INSIDE****

Mark Hamill

MrStuffins wrote: »

Well i've asked you already and you havent answered.

If you don't think Brock is No.1, who do you think IS and why?

I dont know.

baaaa

rovert wrote: »

Effective as in he ultimately got the win.

Lucky in the way that it inadvertently lead to Carwin exposing his greatest flaw.

That's really stretching the meaning of effective.

MrStuffins

baaaa wrote: »

It's very hard to say who's the best unless you've got someone who's miles ahead.
Id imagine you'd be graphing the fighters ability on many many different aspects.
You would need a fighter with an extensive record,a considerable body of credible work so you could rule out luck and chance.
Brock isn't that fighter.

This isn't necessarily true, No.1 status changes all the time as fighters come into their peak or who they have been fighting during that particular timeframe!

Chuck Liddell has beaten some amazing names, but he isn't No.1 anymore.

The fact is, Brock has beat everyone put in front of him. He is Number 1!

rovert

baaaa wrote: »

That's really stretching the meaning of effective.

Effective=winning and not getting knocked out by the heaviest hitter in UFC.

MrStuffins

Mark Hamill wrote: »

I dont know.

So who would you rate above Brock right now and why?

baaaa

MrStuffins wrote: »

This isn't necessarily true, No.1 status changes all the time as fighters come into their peak or who they have been fighting during that particular timeframe!

Chuck Liddell has beaten some amazing names, but he isn't No.1 anymore.

The fact is, Brock has beat everyone put in front of him. He is Number 1!

Cain has also beaten everyone put in front of him.
!

cowzerp

rovert wrote: »

Effective as in he ultimately got the win.

Lucky in the way that it inadvertently lead to Carwin exposing his greatest flaw.

Its worth noting, Brock was almost as gassed as Carwin and all he done round 1 was take a beating, he was fairly gasping the 2nd round, i think if Carwin had of shot he probably would have got an easy take down aswell and it may have gone similar, i dont know how people don't realise that.

MrStuffins

baaaa wrote: »

Cain has also beaten everyone put in front of him.
!

That's correct, but he is not fighting at a Championship level.

Really, i shouldn't have to point this out to you!

rovert

cowzerp wrote: »

Its worth noting, Brock was almost as gassed as Carwin and all he done round 1 was take a beating, he was fairly gasping the 2nd round, i think if Carwin had of shot he probably would have got an easy take down aswell and it may have gone similar, i dont know how people don't realise that.

Again he was off for a year and he said while in humble Brock mode that he had to start virtually from scratch conditioning wise earlier in the year. He did recover far faster than Carwin did cardio wise just look at their interviews.

MrStuffins

cowzerp wrote: »

Its worth noting, Brock was almost as gassed as Carwin and all he done round 1 was take a beating, he was fairly gasping the 2nd round, i think if Carwin had of shot he probably would have got an easy take down aswell and it may have gone similar, i dont know how people don't realise that.

But that didnt happen

cowzerp

MrStuffins wrote: »

But that didnt happen

thanks for pointing out the same thing every time anyone say's anything! not much point in debating with you if thats the same answer your going to keep giving.

The point im making is that Brock was almost as gassed as Carwin, And as far as fitness goes, you could make the least fit person super fit in under a year if they put the effort in so im pretty sure brock was fully fit, maybe not fully sharp but certainly fully fit, lads this big will gas quicker and that goes without saying..

MrStuffins

cowzerp wrote: »

thanks for pointing out the same thing every time anyone say's anything! not much point in debating with you if thats the same answer your going to keep giving.

The point im making is that Brock was almost as gassed as Carwin, And as far as fitness goes, you could make the least fit person super fit in under a year if they put the effort in so im pretty sure brock was fully fit, maybe not fully sharp but certainly fully fit, lads this big will gas quicker and that goes without saying..

Yes, i keep pointing it out, because there is a silly hatred for Brock here that i don't agree with, including yourself. People are making silly, seemingly childish comments about the fight (including yourself) and it's mind-boggling to me!

Nobody wants to accept the fact that he won the fight and keep saying "What if" this and "what if" that.

Detracting from Brock for no reason "Brock isnt the No.1.... i have no idea who is, but it's not Brock"

Come on, don't you see this?

MrStuffins

For anybody interested, DR. Johnny Benjamin addresses the reasons behind Shane Carwin's gassing

Hi Doc: Got a question about Shane Carwin's endurance. Post fight, he said, "Toward the end of the (first round), my body began to seize up. In between rounds, I could not move my legs and had what felt like a whole body cramp. My cardio was fine, but my body was not." I've never experienced something like this myself; then again, I'm not 265-plus pounds and 35 years old. Is there a condition that causes this to happen, or do you believe that his adrenalin got the better of him because he thought he had Brock Lesnar beat and wore himself out? Thanks, Travis

Now, this is a very popular question!

I'd love to know an accurate pay-per-view number for UFC 116. And remember, PPV is just how many actually paid – not watched or stole the feed. From the sheer volume of emails I received with this particular question, the number must be huge.

Adrenaline dumping is a very popular phrase in the worlds of fitness and combat sports. It truly is not common medical terminology. The phrase appears to be used to describe some of the characteristics associated with a surge of epinephrine (adrenaline) released during extreme physical exertion (sports and/or fighting).

An epinephrine surge prepares the body for the classic fight-or-flight scenario: significant increase in heart rate, rapid breathing, glucose surge in blood for energy, heightened awareness, sweating, etc.

It is interesting to note that this is the same physiology involved in an anxiety attack.

Unfortunately, this level of readiness expends a great deal of energy. Therefore, it cannot be maintained for long. That is why veterans of the fight game will often admonish combatants to "stay relaxed" and "slow your breathing" in hopes of blunting the epinephrine surge.

I believe that Carwin's perception that his body seized and wouldn't respond likely was due to several factors with increased levels of epinephrine aggravating the underlying physiology.

Improper hydration related to weight-cutting cannot be entirely dismissed. I would not be surprised if Shane Carwin was 280-plus pounds a few days prior to the weigh-in. Therefore, he would be forced to sweat and water restrict the weight off in a short period of time. This process can wreak havoc with your electrolytes, which in turn can hamper performance.

Additionally, never underestimate the amount of work being performed and energy being expended by athletes of this size. Moving your 265-plus pounds in addition to controlling another athlete's 265-plus pounds all while fighting for five minutes without interruption is an amazing feat. Now, rest for 60 seconds and do it again. And again. And again. And again.

His body failed ("seized" is his terminology) for the same reason that any massive engine does. Simply put? It was pushed too hard for too long.

Experiment: Have a training partner count while you do as many push-ups as you can for four minutes without resting. Then immediately transition to the bench press and lift an empty bar (45 pounds) as quickly as you can for one minute. Rest for exactly 60 seconds. Do as many push-ups as you can for five minutes without rest.

How many did you do? Not many, huh?

Now, if you add an epinephrine surge to these dynamics, you may begin to understand 1 percent of what Carwin was experiencing during UFC 116.

For reasons such as these, I continue to assert that elite MMA athletes are some of the greatest athletes on the planet. If we as fans discuss their athleticism more and the gladiatorial aspects of the sport less, maybe MMA will gain greater respect with influential law makers in important markets such as New York and Ontario.

cowzerp

MrStuffins wrote: »

Yes, i keep pointing it out, because there is a silly hatred for Brock here that i don't agree with, including yourself. People are making silly, seemingly childish comments about the fight (including yourself) and it's mind-boggling to me!

Nobody wants to accept the fact that he won the fight and keep saying "What if" this and "what if" that.

Detracting from Brock for no reason "Brock isnt the No.1.... i have no idea who is, but it's not Brock"

Come on, don't you see this?

I don't hate Brock, i just don't rate him as highly as you and credit most his abilities down to been bigger and stronger than most people and that's fine as he's not breaking any rules, his wrestling in this fight was not great, his striking awful and his defense was just folding up! as soon as he fought an equally big opponent he looked pathetic to say the least, If Brock is getting Lot's of credit for folding up and not trying to counter at all then go for it but i wont credit that, i thought it was embarrassing and I'm sure he's cringing if he seen the fight since, baddest man on the planet!!!!

Mark Hamill

MrStuffins wrote: »

So who would you rate above Brock right now and why?

Overeem, Werdum, Fedor (depends entirely on his next fight, after his very amatuerish performance against Werdum, he needs a good win to go back up in my books). The have better records than Brock, some good recent wins, and arent so one dimensional.
To be honest, even after losing to him, I think Randy is a better fighter than Brock, he just made the mistake of continuingly trying to take down Brock which massively tired him out.

MrStuffins

cowzerp wrote: »

I don't hate Brock, i just don't rate him as highly as you and credit most his abilities down to been bigger and stronger than most people and that's fine as he's not breaking any rules, his wrestling in this fight was not great, his striking awful and his defense was just folding up! as soon as he fought an equally big opponent he looked pathetic to say the least, If Brock is getting Lot's of credit for folding up and not trying to counter at all then go for it but i wont credit that, i thought it was embarrassing and I'm sure he's cringing if he seen the fight since, baddest man on the planet!!!!

Maybe my posts oversell my rating of Brock. By no means do i think Brock is the greatest fighter ever.

But i think he doesnt deserve to have all of his performances detracted every time he fightd by SOME (not you) because he is an ex WWE Champ.

Brock is far far from being anywhere near a P4P No.1, but it just happens that there is a massive lack of top quality Heavyweights in the world right now and IMO Brock is the No.1.

baaaa

MrStuffins wrote: »

Nobody wants to accept the fact that he won the fight and keep saying "What if" this and "what if" that.

Detracting from Brock for no reason "Brock isnt the No.1.... i have no idea who is, but it's not Brock"

Come on, don't you see this?

Every fighters performance gets questioned after a fight,regardless of whether they won or not.
Brock's is particularly up for scrutiny cause he's "baddest man" now apparently after it.
The performance was also full of gaping holes,hence the even more intense scrutiny.

Mark Hamill

MrStuffins wrote: »

That's correct, but he is not fighting at a Championship level.

Really, i shouldn't have to point this out to you!

Beating Congo and Nog is not fighting at championship level now?

MrStuffins

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Overeem, Werdum, Fedor (depends entirely on his next fight, after his very amatuerish performance against Werdum, he needs a good win to go back up in my books). The have better records than Brock, some good recent wins, and arent so one dimensional.
To be honest, even after losing to him, I think Randy is a better fighter than Brock, he just made the mistake of continuingly trying to take down Brock which massively tired him out.

I understand why you would argue that each of these guys would be rated higher than Brock right now, but i disagree and think Brock is No.1 until one of these guys beats him (and i think each of those guys are more than capable of beating Brock)

MrStuffins

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Beating Congo and Nog is not fighting at championship level now?

Well beating Kongo CERTAINLY isn't!

Mark Hamill

MrStuffins wrote: »

But i think he doesnt deserve to have all of his performances detracted every time he fightd by SOME (not you) because he is an ex WWE Champ.

I could care where Brock comes from, the fact is his fights haven't been particularly impressive. The reason I'm here pointing out the flaws is some people seem to be glossing over them.

MrStuffins wrote: »

Brock is far far from being anywhere near a P4P No.1, but it just happens that there is a massive lack of top quality Heavyweights in the world right now and IMO Brock is the No.1.

Then why even hold to number one, if there isn't actually the quality to determine it properly?

baaaa

There's plenty of quality heavyweights Mcstuffins.

MrStuffins

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Then why even hold to number one, if there isn't actually the quality to determine it properly?

Come on now! If we all listened to talk like that, then why don't we just shut down the MW division as soon as Anderson Silva retires, because nobody is going to dominate like him?

You're being silly!

rovert

baaaa wrote: »

Brock's is particularly up for scrutiny cause he's "baddest man" now apparently after it.

Has Brock ever referred to himself as that? It is a Zuffa line taking over from Tyson or a shot a Fedor depending who you believe.

MrStuffins

baaaa wrote: »

There's plenty of quality heavyweights Mcstuffins.

Maybe, but it's possibly the least competitive division in all of MMA!

Mark Hamill

MrStuffins wrote: »

Come on now! If we all listened to talk like that, then why don't we just shut down the MW division as soon as Anderson Silva retires, because nobody is going to dominate like him?

You're being silly!

Who said anything about shutting down a division? I just said why declare someone number one if they are just number one of a bad bunch?. Besides, without Anderson would there be a massive gap in good middleweights?

Mark Hamill

rovert wrote: »

Has Brock ever referred to himself as that? It is a Zuffa line taking over from Tyson or a shot a Fedor depending who you believe.

So?

MrStuffins

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Who said anything about shutting down a division? I just said why declare someone number one if they are just number one of a bad bunch?. Besides, without Anderson would there be a massive gap in good middleweights?

Well you asked why should we determine a No.1 if there is a lack of Top Heavyweights?

Well, how do you determine who is No.1 idealy? With Championships! So should be stop determining champions if Anderson Silva isn't around anymore? The whole point (most) guys get in there is to suceed and be revered as the best in the World!

rovert

Mark Hamill wrote: »

So?

People are acting as if Brock brags about being so instead of being someone who says he has a lot to work on despite his success.

baaaa

rovert wrote: »

Has Brock ever referred to himself as that? It is a Zuffa line taking over from Tyson or a shot a Fedor depending who you believe.

Eh,yeah didn't he imediately after with Rogan - "I'm still the baddest SOB " or some nonsense like that.
He did indeed.

MrStuffins

baaaa wrote: »

Eh,yeah didn't he imediately after with Rogan - "I'm still the baddest SOB " or some nonsense like that.
He did indeed.

So he was effectively calling his mother a bitch too?

rovert

baaaa wrote: »

Eh,yeah didn't he imediately after with Rogan - "I'm still the baddest SOB " or some nonsense like that.
He did indeed.

Im taking interviews over promos.

baaaa

rovert wrote: »

Im taking interviews over promos.

Good,then you'll take this as it was an interview.
It was the one that Joe Rogan held with Brock just moments after the fight.
Again,I don't even think you saw the fight.

MrStuffins

In fairness, arguing over who said what is pointless!

There are plenty of fighters who say they're the best in the world after their fights, even if they are nowhere near it! Ya gotta be confident if you wanna fight!

rovert

baaaa wrote: »

It was the one that Joe Rogan held with Brock just moments after the fight

They are called promos in the biz, brother.

baaaa wrote: »

Again,I don't even think you saw the fight.

Sure dude, is that why Ive managed to make ****e of most of your points real ones or not?

MrStuffins wrote: »

In fairness, arguing over who said what is pointless!

There are plenty of fighters who say they're the best in the world after their fights, even if they are nowhere near it! Ya gotta be confident if you wanna fight!

Some people dont actually go to Disneyworld either.

baaaa

rovert wrote: »

They are called promos in the biz, brother.



Sure dude, is that why Ive managed to make ****e of most of your points real ones or not?



Some people dont actually go to Disneyworld either.

You be hatin.

MrStuffins

baaaa wrote: »

You be hatin.

ollieo

baaaa wrote: »

Eh,yeah didn't he imediately after with Rogan - "I'm still the baddest SOB " or some nonsense like that.
He did indeed.

He said he's "still the toughest SOB", and after getting pounded by Carwin for the majority of the first round this may be true :P

MrStuffins

Josh Rosenthal is a guest on this week's MMA Live.

Just watched it on ESPN so if anyone has a series link like i do would be advised to go watch it.

I think they still put it on the website, here's a "preview" of this week's episode. Full ep should be up soon.

Edit: An interesting end to the show has the question posed to Kenny and Pat: Is Brock Lesnar the best Heavyweight in the world? And they answer.....

Kenny says he is and he's the man to beat (which is a good point) Pat says he is not and even mentions the likes of Dos Santos as BETTER than Brock, and says they WOULD beat Brock

unknown13

I am just looking at the bottom of the Tag Line and I saw: ''fixed fights''. Who came up with that theory?, does anyone think Dana will allow fight fixing in the UFC. No and unlike WWE UFC/ MMA is regulated by a commission.

Anyone who thinks match fixing goes on in MMA, should post that in the Conspiracy Theories forum on Boards

Fromvert

MrStuffins wrote: »

Josh Rosenthal is a guest on this week's MMA Live.

Just watched it on ESPN so if anyone has a series link like i do would be advised to go watch it.

I think they still put it on the website, here's a "preview" of this week's episode. Full ep should be up soon.

Edit: An interesting end to the show has the question posed to Kenny and Pat: Is Brock Lesnar the best Heavyweight in the world? And they answer.....

Kenny says he is and he's the man to beat (which is a good point) Pat says he is not and even mentions the likes of Dos Santos as BETTER than Brock, and says they WOULD beat Brock

Don't think he did. Pat was saying that we might see a title fight between Cain and Dos Santos in the not to distant future. Cain beats Brock and Dos Santos beats Big Country so Cain and Dos Santos fight for the title. He believes Cain is better then Brock.

t-ha

Brock is the heavyweight champ of the UFC, what we would all (maybe not Pat Miletech) point to as being the premier MMA organisation. That belt is a pretty good claim to being the toughest SOB around.

Cain has a great chance, but tbh I thought Shane Carwin would definitely win & then he didn't; so it just goes to show that you have to wait for the fight to happen before you judge. It's pointless saying Brock sucks and x, y, z would beat him until you actually have that fight happen and Brock loses.

I think UFC116 was a wake-up call for both of them. For Brock it showed that there are guys in the division he can't just bully around and he's gonna have to work on his technique (especially boxing). For Shane it showed him that he can't rely on knocking people out in round 1 and he's gonna need to diversify his game and learn to pace himself. I think Shane is quite possibly the future champ as long as he's humble about the loss and goes about fixing the problems that came out last weekend. I would definitely back him in a rematch.

MarkJD

Has this been posted yet? Sorry if it has

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq8bUaA_kUI

Professey Chin

Well if nothing else this thread has proved Brocks drawing power.The debates he causes means everyone will tune in to see him win/lose

UFC 116 - 1295 posts and counting
TUF 11 Finale - 99 posts
TUF 11 Series - 220 posts
UFC 115 - 197 posts

Gerard.C

I cant wait until Lesner humiliates Velasquez aswell

rovert

Gerard.C wrote: »

I cant wait until Lesner humiliates Velasquez aswell

But Cain is a better technical wrester, Stu Hart must have trained him.

Gerard.C

rovert wrote: »

But Cain is a better technical wrester, Stu Hart must have trained him.

Brock would make Stu tap aswell

unknown13

Gerard.C wrote: »

I cant wait until Lesner humiliates Velasquez aswell

It won't be long. UFC 121 is when it is happening.

rovert

Despite claims by a certion poster that Brock brings nothing to UFC this show is projected to do 1.15-1.25 million not bad consider the weak in name value under card and Carwin not doing that much media.

DrPhilG

Just catching up with this as I've been away for 2 weeks, (including going to 116). Here's my brief summary/thoughts.

Brock only won because Carwin gassed, blah blah blah. How about "Carwin only came close because Brock has poor standup". Next time Carwin will work on his cardio and Brock will work on his striking. Carwin's gas tank is no better an excuse than Brock's crappy standup.

Brock has no chin? Crap. People wondered why Carwin finished Gonzaga with what looked like a weak shot? Because he hits like a train. He caught Brock with hard shots standing and on the ground and Brock was never wobbled. He nearly shat himself and defended horribly, but his knees didn't go nor his eyes roll. He has taken solid shots from Mir, Couture and Herring but none as hard as Carwin, which is why he reacted so badly.

The ref should have stopped it. Read Rosenthal's own thoughts on the fight and Brock's comments. Both fighters were told before the fight that if the situation ended up exactly like it did, he would give a fair chance and would give 3 warnings before stepping in. He did just that and IMO it was an excellent reffing performance. When Brock just covered his head he was warned. When he was warned he responded immediately which proved that he had his wits about him and was aware of what he was doing.

Brock couldn't take Carwin down. Watching it on the night, I'd agree. I was supporting Lesnar but when Carwin escaped that first attempt I started to worry. But I watched it quickly again last night and unless I'm mistaken, did Carwin not catch hijm with a good punch as he shot? Rogan even said as he rushed that Brock got clipped. Not taking anything away from Carwin by the way, just poiinting out that Brock didn't fail in the takedown as such, he got a slap in the ear as he tried it.


For me, positives and negatives for Lesnar. But after gettign his ground game exposed by Mir first time, he went on to improve leaps and bounds. His standup was exposed by Shane Carwin this time and I expect a similar improvement by the time he faces Velasquez. However I don't think that Cain hits anywhere near as hard as Carwin and is a lot smaller so I expect Brock's size, strength and wrestling to come in again.