Is anyone else depressed at the thought of watching Ireland play again under Trap?

wandatowell

Trap is a top quality manager who is working with below average/average players with a very very light sprinkling of average Premier League players (apart from Given who's world clas imo)

He's done well so far. Dont think anybody could have done a better job.

noodler

gonedrinking wrote: »

On the basis of Keanes mentality and physcology of not accepting Ireland as being "minnows," of actually wanting to achieve things and not just making up the numbers in tournaments, of always wanting to improve and not ever accepting draws as good results no matter who you are playing, of never being intimidated by teams because they have a good history.

So the manager of my local Sunday League team not being selected Ireland manager is the same sort of as him not wanting the job because Ireland are a relatively small nation?

gonedrinking

wandatowell wrote: »

Trap is a top quality manager who is working with below average/average players with a very very light sprinkling of average Premier League players (apart from Given who's world clas imo)

He's done well so far. Dont think anybody could have done a better job.

He hasn't done a good job so far because he has failed in the objective to qualify for the world cup. Thats a failure no matter what way you try and spin it. He should of had the decency to have quit after that cause things aren't gonna get better under him.

gonedrinking

noodler wrote: »

So the manager of my local Sunday League team not being selected Ireland manager is the same sort of as him not wanting the job because Ireland are a relatively small nation?

But he doesn't have experience of managing at the top level of football, Keane has.

noodler

gonedrinking wrote: »

But he doesn't have experience of managing at the top level of football, Keane has.

Sunderland for one season in the EPL?

Really?

Are you aware of Trap's credentials? I mean if one PL season with Sunderland does it for you I think you'd cream yourself reading Trap's CV.

stovelid

gonedrinking wrote: »

IN comparative terms, Andy Reid is our Kaka.

And with a different manager S.Ireland could be more open to playing again, he said Trap had no interest in convincing him to come back he just wanted to be seen to have asked him. Roy Keane said he would camp outside Irelands house till he played again. Thats what we need. I hate Roy Keane with a passion for walking out on us at world cup 2002, but I'd have him as manager over Trap any day.

Ireland has clashed with more personnel than Trapp, as has been debated over thousands of pages elsewhere.

DB10

stovelid wrote: »

Even having Andy Reid (whose potential inclusion weirdly seems to amount to Kaka declaring for us, for some people) and Ireland in the team wouldn't give us the means to play that openly against most decent teams.

Ireland is a dead duck. At this stage, we have to consider what is at our disposal only, not what could be.

Why not?

Arguably his reluctance to play any sort of attractive or attacking football has cost us in the group stages.

In all fairness I know we got within a hair of the WC but look at how France and Italy were embarrased there. Neither team were anything special at all, in retrospect we really could have topped the group if we didn't drop points so easily.

All I'm saying is I would rather go out play attacking football then negative hoofball stuff. Eventually most teams that do that are found out.

DB10

gonedrinking wrote: »

But he doesn't have experience of managing at the top level of football, Keane has.

Johnny Utah

wandatowell wrote: »

Trap is a top quality manager who is working with below average/average players with a very very light sprinkling of average Premier League players (apart from Given who's world clas imo)

Typical pessimism and self-defeatism at its best.



How many world class players do each of the following countries have?

(1) Uruguay

(2) South Korea

(3) USA

(4) Ghana

(5) Slovakia

(6) Chile

(7) Mexico

(8) Paraguay

(9) Japan

wandatowell wrote: »

He's done well so far. Dont think anybody could have done a better job.

Anybody?

Mourinho? Hiddink? Van Gaal?

noodler

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Typical pessimism and self-defeatism at its best.



How many world class players do each of the following countries have?

(1) Uruguay

(2) South Korea

(3) USA

(4) Ghana

(5) Slovakia

(6) Chile

(7) Mexico

(8) Paraguay

(9) Japan










Anybody?

Mourinho? Hiddink? Van Gaal?

+1

People go too far either way sometimes.

MementoMori

I think the depressing thing is that no matter who the opposition are, if Ireland score a goal in the first minute the plan will be defend, defend, defend for the rest of the match.

I'm not looking for all-out attacking football or even anything resembling it really but it would be nice if it looked like we were even remotely considering scoring a second goal. Some sort of positivity would be nice.

Our tactical plan is pretty much a carbon copy of the negative Italian/Greek approach only not as successful.

johnmcdnl

If we tried to play Bralizan or Spain football we'd loose 10-0 every game so that's be pretty bad so... yeah I'm happy with Trap because his style of play is probably best suited the group of middlen average players we have..

If we had a team full of Messi and Pele's and Maradona's and I dunno who ever else then that'd be a different story - but with the team we have Trap's one of the best managers we could possibly have

wandatowell

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Typical pessimism and self-defeatism at its best.

Anybody?

Mourinho? Hiddink? Van Gaal?

So your saying that Ireland has an above average squad of players??? Pessimism nah its called being a realist.
Im not gonna get drawn into naming names here but the selection of players Trapp has to chose from is po o.

As for those managers you named do you really think we would have finished above Italy in our qualifying group even with those managers?? Not likely. Possibly because who knows how things would have finished out? Trapp done as good a job as can be expected.

briany

MementoMori wrote: »

I think the depressing thing is that no matter who the opposition are, if Ireland score a goal in the first minute the plan will be defend, defend, defend for the rest of the match.

I'm not looking for all-out attacking football or even anything resembling it really but it would be nice if it looked like we were even remotely considering scoring a second goal. Some sort of positivity would be nice.

Our tactical plan is pretty much a carbon copy of the negative Italian/Greek approach only not as successful.

Yeah, I agree. By the time Ireland had faced Bulgaria for the second time in Sophia, I knew how the games went and I cringed a little bit when Ireland scored early yet again because I knew they would sit back and defend and it would be nailbiting so it's often a relief in a perverse kind of a way when the opposition takes the lead or equalises, at least that's how I felt during the campaign. But it's been a feature of the team for so long, way before the Trap era. Any fans remember how gutted they felt when Macedonia scored that agonising goal so close to full time that denied Ireland the top spot in the group that would have put them in Euro 2000? I do. Just a lack of bottle as far as I can see and if it's something ingrained, the manager can only go so far.

How many incidents stand out thinking about it?

The agonisers (Mostly equalisers) :

Macedonia 1-1 '99 Conceded late and cost us automatic qualification
Turkey 1-1 '99 Penalty which put them through on away goals (83 mins)
Netherlands 2-2 '00 Van Bronckhorst denies famous away win '83 mins
Israel 1-1 '05 (Tel Aviv) Condeded '90 mins
Isreal 2-2 '05 (Dublin) Blew 2 goal lead in the same half
Croatia 1-0 '99 (Zagreb) Suker punch!
Italy 2-2 '09 (Dublin) Italy created what was pretty much a goal at will.
France 1-1 '09 (Paris) Extra time - Enough has been said on this.
Slovakia 2-2 '09 (Bratislava) Cech 90+1. Just when we dared to hope....
Wales 2-2 '07 (Cardiff) Penalty '89

Had the above been ones above been wins, it would not have made much differerence but had we not conceded against the Czech republic it would have made our position much more respectable in that group.

That's all I can think of for now. Basically what I'm trying to say in a longwinded way is the Irish have bottled it at international level and will continue to bottle it but sometimes will come back too. Because I don't see that situation improving, I say enjoy it — it's a hell of a toboggan ride!!

wandatowell

gonedrinking wrote: »

He hasn't done a good job so far because he has failed in the objective to qualify for the world cup. Thats a failure no matter what way you try and spin it. He should of had the decency to have quit after that cause things aren't gonna get better under him.

A go away ffs.

Leiva

No one will give a flying fook what style of football we played when they are on the flights to 2012

I'm 100% behind Trap , I think he has done really well with the resources/players he has to pick from .

As much as I would love to play sexy football I think it's time for a reality check . If watching Ireland under Trap depresses you then God forbid he takes a club job .

flahavaj

If anything watching the World Cup re-inforced my belief that Trap is doing the best possible job he can do with the resources available to him. I think his philosophy of choosing a particular rigid system in which he and the players believe and then choosing the players that fit that system best is a sound one. I think we'd have been god enough to get out of our group anyway.

The Paraguay performance last night where they defended solidly in numbers with every player knowing his role reminded me of the performance against the French that our lads put in in the play off. We are on the right road IMO and people seriously need to realise that Trappatoni is by the best qualified manager that Ireland could possibly hope to have on board at the moment.

Also can people stop with the Andy Reid nut-hugging, its beyond tiresome. He's a reasonably skilful lad whos had a good season at Sunderland but he simply does not fit the system Trap wants to play.

JerryHandbag

mixednuts wrote: »

No one will give a flying fook what style of football we played when they are on the flights to 2012

I'm 100% behind Trap , I think he has done really well with the resources/players he has to pick from .

As much as I would love to play sexy football I think it's time for a reality check . If watching Ireland under Trap depresses you then God forbid he takes a club job .

I'll take 7 boring 1-nil wins and 3 scoreless draws in next group thank you very much. Ugly caveman football all the way as long as it gets us to Poland and Ukraine in 2 years.

SantryRed

The formation Trap has are spot on. 4-5-1 is the way to go in international football. All four semi finalists and I think 7 quarter finalists play it.

The problem is the way we play it. We need to keep the ball! The whole point of 4-5-1 is to spread out the wingers as there is an extra man in the midfield for cover. Our problem is we don't keep it. We just launch the ball down the field and this invites pressure. Keith Andrews needs to be dropped as he just can't keep the ball.

If James McCarthy continues to develop in the way he is we could benefit greatly from this formation. In 5 years time we could have this lad running amuck in the Totti role as he isn't suited to any other position of that system.

gosplan

gonedrinking wrote: »

This world cup has shown defensive tactics will only get you so far, you can only ride your luck for so long before you get badly exposed by a good attacking team.

Yeah but the last one showed that even if your forwards can't buy a goal, you can win the whole thing with a good defence.

gosplan

Johnny Utah wrote: »

(1) Uruguay

(2) South Korea

(3) USA

(4) Ghana

(5) Slovakia

(6) Chile

(7) Mexico

(8) Paraguay

(9) Japan

This really doesn't make sense to me.

Is the accusation that Ireland should be in the knock out stages of the WC except Trap was too negative?

noodler

gosplan wrote: »

This really doesn't make sense to me.

Is the accusation that Ireland should be in the knock out stages of the WC except Trap was too negative?

I just took it as telling some posters here to have a little faith in our players.

I want Trap to stay of course but I still hope we are capable of actually dispatching a team or two convincingly this campaign rather than hanging on at home against Georgia or Cyprus.

gosplan

noodler wrote: »

I just took it as telling some posters here to have a little faith in our players.

I want Trap to stay of course but I still hope we are capable of actually dispatching a team or two convincingly this campaign rather than hanging on at home against Georgia or Cyprus.

Yes, you'd hope we see an improvement alright.

One thing that's generally overlooked is that Trap was practically straight into 'can't lose' qualification matches. He's a negative manager, yeah but he's a winner which means he hasn't spent his whole career playing for draws.

He's improved the team massively from when he took over and now that the team are used to his stewardship, we'll see what he can do in the next qualifying campaign.

Anyone calling for his head is an idiot IMO.

johnmcdnl

at least we're not loosing 5-2 against Cyprus anymore - I'd rather a boring 1-0 win against Cyprus tbh rather than that ever happening again...

if Ireland went and won the world cup playing boring football I'd be as happy as larry... if we played attractive football.. yeah we'd probably not even get to the finals.....

gosplan

Yup, also I think you can't overlook the fact that this team has nowhere near the same quality of the 2002 world cup team or Big Jack's 88-04 team.

event

gonedrinking wrote: »

You don't need a team full of superstars to do well, just look at the likes of slovakia, the 2 koreas etc

Slovakia - Drew with the mighty new zealand. Beaten by paraguay. Beat a poor italian side. beaten by holland

South Korea - Beat greece. murdered by argentina. drew with a shocking nigeria. beat by uruguay

north korea - beaten in all 3 games, scoring 1 and conceeding 12

yes, they are the teams we need to look to

between them at the WC they played 11. won 2 games, drew 2 games and lost 7. They scored 12 and conceeded 27

amazing

noodler

event wrote: »

Slovakia - Drew with the mighty new zealand. Beaten by paraguay. Beat a poor italian side. beaten by holland

South Korea - Beat greece. murdered by argentina. drew with a shocking nigeria. beat by uruguay

north korea - beaten in all 3 games, scoring 1 and conceeding 12

yes, they are the teams we need to look to

between them at the WC they played 11. won 2 games, drew 2 games and lost 7. They scored 12 and conceeded 27

amazing

Again,

"poor Itaian side", "shocking Nigeria", They were only poor in relative terms for the most part.

North Koreans push Brazil all the way, Paraguay got to the last 8, NZ were unbeaten, Slovakia beat Italy (which we couldn't do).

event

noodler wrote: »

Again,

"poor Itaian side", "shocking Nigeria", They were only poor in relative terms for the most part.

North Koreans push Brazil all the way, Paraguay got to the last 8, NZ were unbeaten, Slovakia beat Italy (which we couldn't do).

i know, but i wouldnt be holding them up as teams we should be looking towards as some sort of inspiration.

LuckyLloyd

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Typical pessimism and self-defeatism at its best.



How many world class players do each of the following countries have?

(1) Uruguay

(2) South Korea

(3) USA

(4) Ghana

(5) Slovakia

(6) Chile

(7) Mexico

(8) Paraguay

(9) Japan

I bet you thought this was like your big money point, right? Sorry buddy.

WE ARE IN THE UEFA QUALIFYING REGION. NOT CONCACAF WHERE AN AWFUL HONDURAS CAME THROUGH. NOT ASIA WHERE NORTH KOREA GOT THROUGH. NOT CONMENBOL WHERE 50% OF COMPETING TEAMS QUALIFIED.

The times we have qualified we've come out of our group. A pretty amazing record really. Qualifying from UEFA is a really tough business. Ask Russia or Sweden or Turkey or the Czech Republic. Ask England about 2008 while you're at it.

People just don't get it.

LuckyLloyd

gonedrinking wrote: »

You play like Span by trying to play like Spain. The likes of Spain and Holland aren't much different in terms of population size, theres no reason why we can't do as well as them if we actually try to play a bit of football. Its not gonna happen overnight but its the only way to catch up with the likes of Spain.

stovelid wrote: »

Even having Andy Reid (whose potential inclusion weirdly seems to amount to Kaka declaring for us, for some people) and Ireland in the team wouldn't give us the means to play that openly against most decent teams.

Ireland is a dead duck. At this stage, we have to consider what is at our disposal only, not what could be.

briany

If Ireland can go through the next campaign unbeaten then they will be in a great position to qualify. Home wins against Russia and Slovakia would be a dream and make us favourites to top the group so long as we can do the business against the other teams in the group and not lose away to Russia/Slovakia. I'd like to see the Irish team really stick it to the smaller teams and beat them well but places like Macedonia/Cyprus have become banana skins in recent years and it doesn't help that a bigger team will usually only do what it has to do to beat a smaller team and this can blow up in their face occaisionally. Realistically I think that it will be tight at the top with Ireland edging second place though.

noodler

gonedrinking wrote: »

You play like Span by trying to play like Spain. The likes of Spain and Holland aren't much different in terms of population size, theres no reason why we can't do as well as them if we actually try to play a bit of football. Its not gonna happen overnight but its the only way to catch up with the likes of Spain.

LeeroyJones wrote: »

WHAT?!

Republic of Ireland has a population of about 4.5 million and competes with Gaelic Football, Hurling and Rugby Union for players

Netherlands are nearly four times bigger with 16.5million

Spain has 46million

gonedrinking wrote: »

hahah didn't think there was that big of a difference, but Portugal would be a better example

Crazy stuff man.

Portugal has over 11m.