Truth about Porn

lazygal

What would people's reactions be if:
1) Their daughter expressed a desire to work in the industry?
2) Their wife/partner expressed a desire to work in the industry?
3) Their son expressed a desire to work in the industry?
4) Their husband/partner expressed a desire to work in the indsutry?
5) They started a relationship with someone and subsequently was told by the person concerned that he/she worked in the industry?
6) They started a relationship with somenone and found pictures/footage of the person, not having been told about it?

Genuinely curious, also its difficult to tell but it seems that most of those who think porn is acceptable/ not harmful are men. I may be wrong, open to correction. Obviously I'm a woman and I studied this industry in college. There are a lot of damaged people in it-Jenna Jameson was abused and gang raped in high school, but with the amount of fast money to be made who is exploiting who?

The Corinthian

lazygal wrote: »

What would people's reactions be if:
1) Their daughter expressed a desire to work in the industry?
2) Their wife/partner expressed a desire to work in the industry?
3) Their son expressed a desire to work in the industry?

It is not a socially acceptable occupation and does come with medical risks - there's no denying this. Nonetheless, lots of other occupations carry risks and social stigma too - I'd hardly be overjoyed if my son/daughter decided they wanted to be a sanitary worker or a security consultant in Afghanistan.

4) Their husband/partner expressed a desire to work in the indsutry?
5) They started a relationship with someone and subsequently was told by the person concerned that he/she worked in the industry?
6) They started a relationship with somenone and found pictures/footage of the person, not having been told about it?

Naturally the issue of monogamous sex would likely be the principle factor - and that really comes down to how you view sex. For many it would be difficult, I'd imagine; even if they could get past the fact that their spouse/partner is having sex with someone else, it would be public - and if there is anything worse than being a cuckold is being a public cuckold. Additionally, because of the issue of STI's in such an occupation, that would be another concern. So my guess is that unless you were in the industry yourself and/or had a very open relationship, it would be difficult to maintain one with someone performing in pornography.

Obviously I'm a woman and I studied this industry in college.

Women's studies perchance?

There are a lot of damaged people in it-Jenna Jameson was abused and gang raped in high school, but with the amount of fast money to be made who is exploiting who?

Jenna Jameson was gang raped in high school - before she entered the industry. There is no doubt that this is an industry that attracts people with baggage, but then again no one denies that given a choice we would all have stable and fulfilling 9-to-5 jobs - something that some people just cant hold down.

So really the question is whether the industry itself causes damage rather than attracts damaged people.

Zombrex

The Corinthian wrote: »

Or, where it comes to substance abuse, being in any other part of the entertainment industry.

That is a good point. Replace porn with music and "Jenna Jameson" with "Britney Spears" and I would guess the sympathy level drops off quite significantly, despite Spears seeming to be as messed up as anyone you see in the porn industry.

At the end of the day porn is a way of making quick relatively easy money if you have what people are looking for. This will always attract people who are looking to make quick relatively easy money.

lazygal

I studied law actually, media and criminal law, and spent a lot of time on the legal aspects of this industry due to the "freedom of expression" laws in the US which allow this industry to exist.
I don't think being in the industries to which you referred would damage the psyche. I have no moral argument here, but what I studied about the men and women who work in the industry is heartbreaking.

Zombrex

lazygal wrote: »

I have no moral argument here, but what I studied about the men and women who work in the industry is heartbreaking.

Is it more heart breaking than say being a hotel maid for a living? Or cleaning sheets? Genuine question. I can think of plenty of jobs I would not do and not want my mother sister brother to do. But with porn there seems to be this added air of objection.

jurgenscarl

Women can have healthy backgrounds, healthy relationships, and a healthy self-view of themselves and still want to involve themselves in the adult industry.

Rubbish.:mad:

You don't even believe that yourself.

Don't expect anyone to believe that BS.

lazygal

Its the sexual abuse element I found heartbreaking. So many abused people doing the very thing that caused them to have a warped view of sexuality in the first place and not seeming to value themselves as healthy adults with a healthy view of sex.
Which would you rather-a mother or father who was raped being a maid or a porn star? Which will be better for her or him in the long run?

Ciaran500

jurgenscarl wrote: »

Rubbish.:mad:

You don't even believe that yourself.

Don't expect anyone to believe that BS.

What are you basing all this on? Why do you think this?

lazygal

Ciaran500 wrote: »

What are you basing all this on? Why do you think this?

Lets have a list of all the people who came from stable, middle class, non abusive environments who have experianced nothing but positive elements of the industry then.
I really mean this, what I've studied has been case after case of damaged individuals who entered the industry with chaotic lives, often as a last resort. I would love to hear another side to the business or from anyone who would like to be in it themselves as a viable career option.

The Corinthian

lazygal wrote: »

I studied law actually, media and criminal law, and spent a lot of time on the legal aspects of this industry due to the "freedom of expression" laws in the US which allow this industry to exist.

I said women's studies because that is one of the few courses that covers it and is notorious for it's ideological bias.

I'm very cynical where it comes to any of the social sciences or humanities in modern universities because it's all ideologically driven. I remember in UCD, being a good socialist when sitting one lecturer's exam, a good monetarist for another's and a good Keynesian for yet another. As such, I have very little trust in what is taught at a bachelors level.

I don't think being in the industries to which you referred would damage the psyche. I have no moral argument here, but what I studied about the men and women who work in the industry is heartbreaking.

You think working as a military contractor in a place like Afghanistan is not going to affect your psyche? LOL.

The Corinthian

jurgenscarl wrote: »

Rubbish.:mad:

You don't even believe that yourself.

Don't expect anyone to believe that BS.

Hallelujah! Praise be!

lazygal

I'm very cynical about comparing any job to working in porn. I don't think working in Afghanistan can be compared to porn. I worked on a military base in the United States for a summer while studying law and the PTSD cases there are nothing like what porn stars experience. I'd warrent that at least people are not ashamed to say they work for the military the way they might be to say they work in porn.

The Corinthian

lazygal wrote: »

I'm very cynical about comparing any job to working in porn. I don't think working in Afghanistan can be compared to porn.

If we're talking about an occupation likely to "damage the psyche", we can.

I worked on a military base in the United States for a summer while studying law and the PTSD cases there are nothing like what porn stars experience.

I can't say and possibly neither can you. After all where it comes to psychological damage caused by the industry (not pre-existing), there appears to be far less evidence of that in the modern porn industry than in the military - I've met enough mercs to have figured that one out.

I'd warrent that at least people are not ashamed to say they work for the military the way they might be to say they work in porn.

That's certainly true (although try telling people in polite conversation that you sell small arms to developing nations and see how accepted you are) - nonetheless, is that the fault of porn or of the society that morally damns porn.

Viper_JB

I find it funny how we always need a scape goat for these crazy people who decide to go out and rape/murder/assault poeple. This stuff and worse has been happening since we learned how to pick up sticks - some people are just plain mad and they will go out and do these horrific things reguardless of if they've seen a porno or not. There always seems to be a need to pin it on just one thing...like the whole issue with the headshops for a good while there anyone involved in murder or an assault was blaming it because they were on "legal highs" not because they were dicks or physco's and then of course everyone believes that this is now the problem and not the current convenient excuse and goes ahead with the standard knee jerk reaction - and of course the murders and batterys don't stop they're just blamed on something else. These things have always and will always happen reguardless of porn being avalible to them it's just this particular person believe's this to be the current scape goat - where as there is no real explaination - it's just in some peoples blood to go out and do these things.

Waking-Dreams

Can anyone who works as a porn actor/ actress really be emotionally healthy? For some reason, I can't help but think that something, somewhere has to have gone horribly wrong there. When I bring this topic up, cries of 'empowerment' abound, yet I can't help but think a part of that person has died inside. Do well adjusted people really end up in the porn/ sex industry?

I doubt anyone really aspires to become a ‘porn star’, (as in the true reality of the situation, and not the glamorous exterior that the industry projects). Remember, this is an industry that deals in human desire and fantasy, don’t kid yourself that it can’t pull the wool over your eyes. They want you to believe that everyone loves doing porn. And back it up with some testimony from the stars, while ignoring any negative testimony (usually women who have left).

People look at the industry from the outside in, maybe base their opinions on some ‘behind the scenes’ interviews with stars who made it and figure it’s a good way to make money doing something they love. Yet, while the below quote is obviously vitriolic and jaundiced, the parts in bold are still factually correct.

Is not sexual violence committed to the women in the porn shoot or porn movie? Don't you accept that real violence is being committed against these women? A woman who is exploited and made to degrade herself by being triple penetrated by multiple men before being drenched in ejaculation while untold millions of masturbating men watch her on the internet is a victim of hatred and violence. Female porn stars endure hours and hours of scenes when they must have sex with men with over large penises. STD infection and abuse of painkillers are at epidemic levels among performers. The psychological damage inflicted on these women is extraordinary. Porn hurts women. It is a vile evil industry.

In fact you can see it in scenes where the female star places her hand on the male’s leg to tap him as a signal to ease off on the thrusting or whatever, etc. There are many stories of girls who were coerced into performing for long hours and ended up with internal bleeding and even a tear or two. Of course, I understand that anecdotes don’t make for good science.

They choose to join the industry.

Personally, I think this statement is a textbook case of cognitive dissonance.

No one likes to think they are contributing to the suffering of others, like the consumer who wear his Nike shoes - famed for their dubious ethical production values, where wage-slaves work 14+ hours a day for a pittance - and then rationalises it, “well, it’s business. They can quit working there if they want.”

I’m not anti-porn (because there is some quality erotica stuff out there), but I’m under no illusions that it’s all harmless fantasy either. And lately, there does seem to be an overwhelming amount of ‘gonzo’ porn; the real degrading kind. Most of us are adults and weren’t exposed to this kind of stuff at age 11 but what does it communicate to the younger generation of boys who are just hitting puberty and whose brains are still developing?

Assuming that these women have chosen to do this work for whatever reason, do you not think that you're actually taking power away from them by immediately labelling them as victims of some male propaganda? Surely they've made their own choice and are capable of dealing with that?

There’s lot of women who choose to stay with chronic wife-beaters too. But yeah, they’ve made their own choice and are capable of dealing with that, right? :rolleyes: I think there are a lot of damaged women in porn. Of course, the industry will always highlight and make a big deal out of the successes; the Jenna Jameson’s and Tera Patricks but aren’t these like the lottery winners?

So, would it be fair to compare some porn stars who endure abuse to say, spouses who endure a similar kind of abuse from their husbands/boyfriends?

It’s funny, you rarely hear men defending the abusive partners in such relationships, stating that the lady can and should leave or get help. Yet, in the case of the porn star, so good is the illusion that they all must love it, men are content to let cognitive dissonance kick in to take care of any conflicting moral imperatives.

What would people's reactions be if:
1) Their daughter expressed a desire to work in the industry?
2) Their wife/partner expressed a desire to work in the industry?
3) Their son expressed a desire to work in the industry?
4) Their husband/partner expressed a desire to work in the industry?
5) They started a relationship with someone and subsequently was told by the person concerned that he/she worked in the industry?
6) They started a relationship with someone and found pictures/footage of the person, not having been told about it?

That is interesting. I’d love to hear some more answers from people here.

Zombrex

jurgenscarl wrote: »

Rubbish.:mad:

You don't even believe that yourself.

Don't expect anyone to believe that BS.

You have a very patronizing view of women

Zombrex

lazygal wrote: »

Lets have a list of all the people who came from stable, middle class, non abusive environments who have experianced nothing but positive elements of the industry then.

That is some what of a leading question.

Lets have a list of all the people who have experienced nothing but positive elements of any industry.

All industries have negative elements. I just came out of a meeting where one of my co-workers nearly broke down because she has so much work to do at the moment and her boss isn't re-distributing the work load.

I have another social worker friend who has been on 3 months sick leave because of being attacked by someone she was trying to interview.

If you are looking for a list of people from pretty average backgrounds who seem perfectly happy working in the porn industry, of the top of my head some of the more well known ones

Sasha Grey
Asia Carrera (quote:- "Trust me, they don't exploit women, and watching porn has never been scientifically shown to lead to any increase in crime rates, be it rape, pedophilia, or any other sexual crimes.")
Eva Angelina
Devon

lazygal

Fair enough. Would you like to give responses to the other questions I asked? I read that, its hard to get context across on this but I am not trying to be patronising, I would like to hear about how people would feel about the scenarios I posed.

The Corinthian

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

I doubt anyone really aspires to become a ‘porn star’

Yet, while the below quote is obviously vitriolic and jaundiced, the parts in bold are still factually correct.

One can be factually correct and lie at the same time - all you need to do is be selective about which and how many facts you give.

I'm not sure anyone has suggested that this is an industry that people aspire to or love, however that is not the point. The point is whether this industry is relatively worse or better to 'socially acceptable' industries or not. And if it is only worse because it is not 'socially acceptable', then we might want to examine our social mores rather than the industry.

Of course, I understand that anecdotes don’t make for good science.

Anecdotes can be useful where you have no other evidence to draw from, but I would note that quite often they can also be selectively used - like your aforementioned "testimony from the stars, while ignoring any negative testimony (usually women who have left)."

Personally, I think this statement is a textbook case of cognitive dissonance.

Only if you can demonstrate that they are contributing to the suffering of others and I don't think you have.

Edit: In fairness practically all consumerism involves some level of cognitive dissonance in the consumer as exploitation and suffering occurs in most industries.

I’m not anti-porn (because there is some quality erotica stuff out there), but I’m under no illusions that it’s all harmless fantasy either.

I don't think anyone should be under any illusions that any job is all harmless fun. Welcome to life and modern Capitalism.

There’s lot of women who choose to stay with chronic wife-beaters too. But yeah, they’ve made their own choice and are capable of dealing with that, right? :rolleyes:

Straw man.

So, would it be fair to compare some porn stars who endure abuse to say, spouses who endure a similar kind of abuse from their husbands/boyfriends?

No, as I said, you presented a straw man argument.

nozzferrahhtoo

lazygal wrote: »

What would people's reactions be if:
1) Their daughter expressed a desire to work in the industry?
2) Their wife/partner expressed a desire to work in the industry?
3) Their son expressed a desire to work in the industry?
4) Their husband/partner expressed a desire to work in the indsutry?
5) They started a relationship with someone and subsequently was told by the person concerned that he/she worked in the industry?
6) They started a relationship with somenone and found pictures/footage of the person, not having been told about it?

This post appeals to what is called „argument from emotion“.

If it was genuinely the career path they wanted to enter into then I would be fine with it. If they were entering into it and it was not what they really wanted to do, I would not.

However I can not think of a single career that that paragraph would not fit, which I think makes my point for me.

Id certainly prefer it as a career path to... say... entering the army in a role of active duty on the ground in the front lines of current war time for example.

What you are appealing to here also is the concept of monogamy. This of course will be in stark opposition to the relationship many people want. However again this does not indict porn in any way. There are innumerable careers that are in direct opposition to many things people might want from a relationship. For example if what you want most of all from your partner is that they are there a lot of the time to be with the kids, there are certain "on call" jobs, jobs with travel or jobs in high level management that clearly can not work with that.

In short: In an attempt to indict an industry you otherwise can find nothing wrong with, you are appealing to how some aspects of the work can often contrast with some aspects of what people want from their relationships. As I said, this is appeal to emotion and an attempt to equate "I do not want MY wife to do that" with "therefore porn must be bad".

lazygal

I just wanted yes or no answers, not looking for an emotional response.

Monogamy is not part of the argument for me, I am monogamous, don't really care either way for others as long as it works for them.

nozzferrahhtoo

No one said anything about giving you an emotional response.

What I said was that you MADE what is called "Argument from emotion" or "appeal to emotion".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

lazygal wrote: »

I just wanted yes or no answers

Aside from that I am not sure how you expect people to answer:

„What would people's reactions be if:”

with a "yes" or a "no".

lazygal

So you're not answering questions because you think they are emotionally based? Humans are inherently emotional, I'm more interested in why you won't give a straight answer. Its yes or no to each, don't see how you can mix emotion into that.

nozzferrahhtoo

lazygal wrote: »

So you're not answering questions because you think they are emotionally based? Humans are inherently emotional, I'm more interested in why you won't give a straight answer. Its yes or no to each, don't see how you can mix emotion into that.

Wow, how dishonest can one be? Have some decorum please. Re-read my post. I DID answer your question. If it helps you at all you will find that I did so in the paragraph starting “If it was genuinely….”

So sitting there and telling me I did not answer your question is as dishonest as one can get.

And AGAIN I ask you how can it be “yes” or “no” to each? Not only have you clearly not read MY reply, you have not even read your OWN questions. How can you respond to “What would people's reactions be if:” with a yes or a no? LOL LOL LOL

Person 1 “How would you react if I hit you now?”
Person 2 “Yes”
Person 1 “errrr what?”

This is of course BEFORE you point out the other problem that there are few, if any people, in Ireland who can answer BOTH question 2 and 4 in your list for example.

lazygal

If you don't want to answer my questions, that's fair enough. I'm not really bothered about the comments on them TBH, but continue to post on my arguments if you want to waste your time.

nozzferrahhtoo

lazygal wrote: »

If you don't want to answer my questions, that's fair enough.

Wow, still sticking with this are you? Someone answers you and you just say over and over they didn’t answer you. Nice.

Dishonest much?

If anyone is not answering questions it is you. I have asked twice now how anyone is expected to answer YES or NO to the question "How would people react?"

Zombrex

lazygal wrote: »

Fair enough. Would you like to give responses to the other questions I asked? I read that, its hard to get context across on this but I am not trying to be patronising, I would like to hear about how people would feel about the scenarios I posed.

It is a bit difficult to answer the questions with any sincerity since you are asking for what my reaction would be. I've no idea what my reaction would be because I don't know the context in which the situation would arise.

I assume the overall point of the questions is to gauge if think people are being hypocrites. The issue is, as nozzferrahhtoo points out, is that this is all some what irrelevant.

For example, say I said that I would not want my daughter working the porn industry.

What conclusion would you drive that that? Would it be that I'm a hypocrite, that I'm happy for other people to do it but I wouldn't want someone I care about to do it? Or would it be that I simply would like my daughter to do something academic, and that I no more desire for her not to work in porn than in McDonalds.

strobe

lazygal wrote: »

What would people's reactions be if:
1) Their daughter expressed a desire to work in the industry?
2) Their wife/partner expressed a desire to work in the industry?
3) Their son expressed a desire to work in the industry?
4) Their husband/partner expressed a desire to work in the indsutry?
5) They started a relationship with someone and subsequently was told by the person concerned that he/she worked in the industry?
6) They started a relationship with somenone and found pictures/footage of the person, not having been told about it?

1) Most men don't like to even think of their daughter having sex, full stop. Wether that be with their husband, some guy they met in a club or whatever. Rightly or wrongly most parents will always view their daughter as their little girl. So obviously they wouldn't want thier daughter working in an industry where they would have to think or them having sex. On top of that it is an industry with inherent risk (std's etc) most parents want their children in as safe an occupation as possible, they wouldn't want them trialing medicines either.

2) Wouldn't be an option for someone in a monagamous relationship obviously.

3) {see 2)}

4) {see 1)}

5) {see 2)}

6) {see 2)}

Genuinely curious, also its difficult to tell but it seems that most of those who think porn is acceptable/ not harmful are men. I may be wrong, open to correction.

Well looking at the people who have thanked the posts disagreeing with the article in the OP, I can recognise the usernames of several female posters, so.....

The Corinthian

lazygal wrote: »

So you're not answering questions because you think they are emotionally based?

I answered your questions, why did you not answer my points?

Humans are inherently emotional, I'm more interested in why you won't give a straight answer. Its yes or no to each, don't see how you can mix emotion into that.

Yes or no answers are quite misleading. One may be against their spouse or daughter working in the porn industry, but that may be because of the stigma against it, rather than the industry itself - which is hardly the fault of porn.

So far I fail to see much of a difference between porn and many other industries other than social attitudes. That we are now appealing to emotive reactions as a means to examine possible differences does betray a certain level of desperation in the anti-porn arguments though.

Would it not be better to view the porn industry and attempt to objectively say why this is so much worse than other, socially acceptable, industries? If the social acceptability is all that it comes down to, then perhaps it may be time we look at that rather than porn - no pun intended.

fungun

lazygal wrote: »

What would people's reactions be if:
1) Their daughter expressed a desire to work in the industry?
2) Their wife/partner expressed a desire to work in the industry?
3) Their son expressed a desire to work in the industry?
4) Their husband/partner expressed a desire to work in the indsutry?
5) They started a relationship with someone and subsequently was told by the person concerned that he/she worked in the industry?
6) They started a relationship with somenone and found pictures/footage of the person, not having been told about it?

Too many problems caught up in the same question imo

1. Ill be chasing her bfs away so would hate it anyway
2. If I considered myself to be non-monogamous and lived in a society where porn was not viewed in a discriminatory way like some people are on here view it, then i would be ok with it....as long as it did not interfere with our own personal sex life
3. Fair play, wish Id done it.
4. NA
5. See 2 if it was ongoing (and again this would be my insecurity because of society; if society deemed porn to be ok id prob be ok with it). Otherwise honestly do not mind her past if its in the past, unless it was so prominent my mates would have seen her in which case see 2.
6. As with any dishonesty, I would feel bad about this....but this actually has nothing to do with the industry itself

the_syco

In porn, men have to be well endowed. Women can literally be of all shapes and sizes.

jurgenscarl wrote: »

Female porn stars endure hours and hours of scenes when they must have sex with men with over large penises.
STD infection and abuse of painkillers are at epidemic levels among performers.
The psychological damage inflicted on these women is extraordinary.
Porn hurts women.
It is a vile evil industry.

What's your view on lesbian pron. You know, the porn where the only man may be the cameraman (if even that)?

Wicknight wrote: »

I can't think of one male porn star who as famous as say Jenna Jameson.

Ronald Jeremy Hyatt (Ron Jeremy)?

jurgenscarl wrote: »

The male equivalent is the boxing industry which damages men physically and psychologically.

An odd thing to say, as every boxer train for a long time to box, build muscle, technique, and does it as long as they can.

Waking-Dreams

The Corinthian wrote: »

One can be factually correct and lie at the same time - all you need to do is be selective about which and how many facts you give.

I'm not sure anyone has suggested that this is an industry that people aspire to or love, however that is not the point. The point is whether this industry is relatively worse or better to 'socially acceptable' industries or not. And if it is only worse because it is not 'socially acceptable', then we might want to examine our social mores rather than the industry.

Anecdotes can be useful where you have no other evidence to draw from, but I would note that quite often they can also be selectively used - like your aforementioned "testimony from the stars, while ignoring any negative testimony (usually women who have left)."

Only if you can demonstrate that they are contributing to the suffering of others and I don't think you have.

Edit: In fairness practically all consumerism involves some level of cognitive dissonance in the consumer as exploitation and suffering occurs in most industries.

I don't think anyone should be under any illusions that any job is all harmless fun. Welcome to life and modern Capitalism.

Straw man.

No, as I said, you presented a straw man argument.

A straw man argument? Really?

You don’t see a similarity between a wife/girlfriend who rationalises her abusive partner’s behaviour, be it down to low self-worth, etc, and a porn star who, with a similar mindset, does the same regarding her situation?

I mean, I’m sure you’re willing to accept that many religious people truly believe they’re doing God’s work when they indoctrinate kids, but you reject the idea that a porn star isn’t capable of being deluded, and not suffer from a cognitive bias and rationalise why she does what she does? We all have to feed ourselves to live and some people end up in jobs that cater to those who haven’t got a lot of choices but can offer other services. I mean, what kind of person ends up being a prostitute for that matter? I’ve heard men rationalise that industry too. Desires before morals. Cognitive dissonance once again.

I’m not arguing that every porn star is a slave but it seems like all the justifications from people here, “They choose to do that”, “They can quit if they want” are just dismissive self-justifications because they themselves use some nasty types of porn to get off and it helps them feel better.

Though I’m curious why you didn’t address the part about ‘gonzo’ porn and how young males hitting puberty will be affected by such stuff - seeing as you dissected every other part of my post.

Edit: In fairness practically all consumerism involves some level of cognitive dissonance in the consumer as exploitation and suffering occurs in most industries.

Of course, but such other forms of exploitation don’t involve being screwed some place very uncomfortable because the job ‘requires’ it. And again, there are alternatives for consumers, so why don’t people take them? For example, fake fur has been on the market for quite a while yet some consumers want 'real' fur, which we all know what is involved there. Likewise, there’s lots of porn that is well-produced and not so exploitative, yet the demand seems to be for low-budget, crude, gonzo porn where young girls are seemingly consenting to acts that they wouldn’t have dreamed of in their worst nightmares before they ever heard of the words: porn-industry.

So far I fail to see much of a difference between porn and many other industries other than social attitudes.

Ah come on now, you know there is. I just think it’s easier to point to every other bit of exploitation going on in the world so you don’t feel so bad. Children use those kind of arguments, “Yeah, but, he was throwing stones too mammy! It wasn’t just me!”

What I find is that intelligent people are very, very good and defending all kinds of beliefs. Religious apologists/theologian scholars come to mind, but that's for another forum. :cool:

fungun

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

Of course, but such other forms of exploitation don’t involve being screwed some place very uncomfortable because the job ‘requires’ it.

My only point would be that if someone prefers this to working 9 to 5, then thats fine by me, and I cant see why anyone would feel otherwise.

You put this up as a terrible thing because this is your moral standpoint - someone else might say that if your industry wrecks the environment and theirs means they have sex with strangers - that its your industry should be the one people rail against.

Its only when the industry becomes exploitative its lousy, but that happens in many industries.

Killer Wench

jurgenscarl wrote: »

Rubbish.:mad:

You don't even believe that yourself.

Don't expect anyone to believe that BS.

Actually I do believe that.

Here in Seattle, there is an annual amatuer Porn Film Festival. There are thousands of contributions made by many citizens of Seattle, the state of WA, and the surrounding states. Regular people like soccer moms, college students, grandmothers, etc. have submitted their own short porn films to be reviewed by a panel and watched by several hundred people. There are awards given at the end of the festival; and, the tapes are destroyed once the festival has ended.

You cannot say that all of those people come from damaged backgrounds or have no self-worth or are addicted to drugs. Seattle is the most educated city in the United States; we are the home to such corporations as Microsoft, Costco, Amazon.com, Expedia, and several other small offices of larger companies. There are people from these occupations who have participated.

For further info:

http://post.thestranger.com/gyrobase/Hump2010/Page?show=hump
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HUMP!_(film_festival)

As a progressive and educated woman, it is incredibly offensive to me to see such patronizing attitude from many individuals who share my sex and gender. There are women who choose to seek a profession in the adult industry; not all of them are damaged. Some of them are just greedy. There are also a select few who actually enjoy the sex and the filming. If you need references, send me a PM and I can name you a few actors who you'd be hard pressed to argue are not enjoying themselves.

nozzferrahhtoo

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

I’m not arguing that every porn star is a slave but it seems like all the justifications from people here, “They choose to do that”, “They can quit if they want” are just dismissive self-justifications because they themselves use some nasty types of porn to get off and it helps them feel better.

Ah good tactic. Suggest that anyone who disagrees with you, must be doing so because of some sordid private bias on their part that is over ridding their rational arguments. It could not possibly be that they just disagree with you could it?

I have little interest in porn myself. I find it to be the sexual equivalent of going to a restaurant where you read the menu, place the order, they bring you the food, show it to you, then take it away again and you go home. It, in other words, is pointless to me.

But that is the most damning thing I can say about it generally. That said therefore, it is clear I am not one of the people who suffer from the imaginary bias you are so keen to slap on everyone with an alternative view point to you.

And I can say right now that I do have such a view point. Every industry has people who do not want to work in it but they “fall” into it because of one reason or another. This does not indict the industry itself in any way. I have known people working in McDonalds who keep telling themselves “Just a few more months until I get on my feet and I will be back in college to finish the masters I’ve always wanted….” But they never quite make it.

The fact that there are SOME people in an industry that do not want to be in that industry is irrelevant when talking about the industry as a whole. There ARE other options for girls, both inside and outside the industry. Penetrative sex is not the only type they can do. There are some well paying websites out there who want nothing of the sort, and they are not even that hard to find. Without much effort at all I could find you a soft core website that pays well and is up there in the top 10000 most visited sites in the world… hence their ability to pay well.

lazygal

Killer Wench wrote: »

Actually I do believe that.

Here in Seattle, there is an annual amatuer Porn Film Festival. There are thousands of contributions made by many citizens of Seattle, the state of WA, and the surrounding states. Regular people like soccer moms, college students, grandmothers, etc. have submitted their own short porn films to be reviewed by a panel and watched by several hundred people. There are awards given at the end of the festival; and, the tapes are destroyed once the festival has ended.

You cannot say that all of those people come from damaged backgrounds or have no self-worth or are addicted to drugs. Seattle is the most educated city in the United States; we are the home to such corporations as Microsoft, Costco, Amazon.com, Expedia, and several other small offices of larger companies. There are people from these occupations who have participated.

For further info:

http://post.thestranger.com/gyrobase/Hump2010/Page?show=hump
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HUMP!_(film_festival)

As a progressive and educated woman, it is incredibly offensive to me to see such patronizing attitude from many individuals who share my sex and gender. There are women who choose to seek a profession in the adult industry; not all of them are damaged. Some of them are just greedy. There are also a select few who actually enjoy the sex and the filming. If you need references, send me a PM and I can name you a few actors who you'd be hard pressed to argue are not enjoying themselves.

If the people involved are proud of what they do why destroy the tapes?

nozzferrahhtoo

Killer Wench wrote: »

There are women who choose to seek a profession in the adult industry; not all of them are damaged. Some of them are just greedy. There are also a select few who actually enjoy the sex and the filming.

Indeed. In fact many people, male and female, apparently even do it for the fun of it, for no money and no prizes in competitions like that you list above. In fact some people PAY for the privilege of being able to make porn for the world. A quick google search I performed last time I got involved in this debate revealed this website for example…

www.newbienudes.com

… where people post naked and sexual acts of themselves for the sheer hell of it, and actually sometimes pay for “member” accounts that make their pictures get viewed by more people than the non-paying members.

So these are people who just enjoy making porn, and are not even "greedy" like the ones you mention. And if some people just enjoy making it, is it a big step to think that there are some who enjoy making it and are happy to, or greedy enough to, want to get some money while they are at it?

seamus

lazygal wrote: »

If the people involved are proud of what they do why destroy the tapes?

I don't know much about it, but I imagine there's a "fantasy" aspect to the entry process which is now encapsulated in the whole film festival.

Many men and women are exhibitionists who have exhibitionism fantasies and may act these out in private (home sex tapes anyone?) but wouldn't dream of distributing them to a wider audience. There are many reasons why someone wouldn't want the films made public - social mores, family opinion, their work relationships, etc etc.

Such a festival would seem to provide added thrill for these kinds of people without going the whole hog and turning them into porn stars. That is, they can submit an entry and enjoy the thrill of being watched by others, safe in the knowledge that the publication is limited and will ultimately be destroyed.

There is a difference between shame and modesty - being modest about oneself in public doesn't mean that you're ashamed of anything.

Killer Wench

lazygal wrote: »

What would people's reactions be if:
1) Their daughter expressed a desire to work in the industry?
I would ask her what was the basis of her decision. If she provided a substantive rationale for her choice, and it was not grounded on someone else's desire, then I would support her.

2) Their wife/partner expressed a desire to work in the industry?
Same as above. But, I would ask my partner to always wear protection and to receive quarterly testing.

3) Their son expressed a desire to work in the industry?
Same as above.

4) Their husband/partner expressed a desire to work in the indsutry?
Really, this is the same question as #2 and the answer still applies for #4.

5) They started a relationship with someone and subsequently was told by the person concerned that he/she worked in the industry?
I would ask how they got into the business. I would be curious to know what their motivations were and how they feel about it.
6) They started a relationship with somenone and found pictures/footage of the person, not having been told about it?
If these were pictures/footage from previous relationships or were taken before I met my partner, I would feel that I would be invading their privacy by confronting them on the subject. If they were taken while we were in a relationship, I would look at the context. If they did it for money, I'd probably be more about: how dare they keep this extra income secret. If they were doing it for their own personal pleasure, I'd be: shoot, I could have taken these for free.

Genuinely curious, also its difficult to tell but it seems that most of those who think porn is acceptable/ not harmful are men. I may be wrong, open to correction. Obviously I'm a woman and I studied this industry in college. There are a lot of damaged people in it-Jenna Jameson was abused and gang raped in high school, but with the amount of fast money to be made who is exploiting who?

I am a woman. I recently posted an ad for a roommate and received a response from a corporate executive in town asking if he could serve as my house slave. I actually contemplated doing it but I couldn't get over the "owning" another human being.

I have known women who were strippers. I have a relative that does fetish work. I am not unfamiliar with sex workers. Many of them choose to do the work because they like the relatively easy money; others actually like the thought that there are men lusting after them. It gives them a high but they like doing it and they made the choice to do it.

I wonder how many people here have an objection to adult personal sites like AFF. There are hundreds of thousands of profiles and there are many, many videos of regular folks having sex and doing some raunchy things. There are also numerous other amateur porn sites (like youtube) where regular people can upload videos of themselves. They are not doing it for the monetary gain as they are not paid to film themselves and their partners. I have seen videos of soldiers, doctors, nurses, moms, and students; I truly doubt that all of them feel exploited. They simply like showing other people that they are getting some.

Killer Wench

lazygal wrote: »

If the people involved are proud of what they do why destroy the tapes?

The festival destroys the tapes on behalf of those who submit them; it is just their policy to do so that others are more comfortable submitting them. However, most people who submit them, keep their own copies and there have been past winners that went mainstream.

Regardless if the tape is destroyed or not, it does not negate that there are average people who knowingly and willingly filmed a pornography movie with the intent of having it shown in public.

Killer Wench

One more thing, if we wish to make a correlation between the porn industry and another profession, choosing the military would not be appropriate. I think it there would be more similiarity if you choose to compare the porn industry to professional athletes in America.

Why?

Both professions involve the personal sacrifice of one's physical body. Those who are within a certain age and fitness receive a greater value. There can be long term harm inflicted upon the individual that they may not forsee while engaged in the activity.

nozzferrahhtoo

Killer Wench wrote: »

personal sacrifice of one's physical body.

Those who are within a certain age and fitness receive a greater value.

There can be long term harm inflicted upon the individual that they may not forsee while engaged in the activity.

Sorry to butt in but out of curiosity, which of these things is NOT like military service, especially front line military service on the ground?

Killer Wench

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Sorry to butt in but out of curiosity, which of these things is NOT like military service, especially front line military service on the ground?

My dad was career military and although on the surface it looks the same, my main argument would be on how each party benefits after their career has ended. Many veterans have moved on from the military and find themselves in a position that was better than when they entered the military. In addition, I would argue that the military is a function sanctioned by the government on behalf of the people for our protection where as both the adult film industry and professional sports are done purely for entertainment and for the financial gain of individuals.

The Corinthian

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

A straw man argument? Really?

Yes. Discussing a porn actor's and battered wife's self worths are at best superficially related to each other, so basing an argument based upon this is a straw man.

You don’t see a similarity between a wife/girlfriend who rationalises her abusive partner’s behaviour, be it down to low self-worth, etc, and a porn star who, with a similar mindset, does the same regarding her situation?

I do as much as a waitress who has a similar mindset and remains in her job, or a man who wants to be his own boss but will never have the balls to take the plunge. As such your comparison is really meaningless as you can find it anywhere.

We all have to feed ourselves to live and some people end up in jobs that cater to those who haven’t got a lot of choices but can offer other services. I mean, what kind of person ends up being a prostitute for that matter? I’ve heard men rationalise that industry too. Desires before morals. Cognitive dissonance once again.

You've yet to demonstrate that it is that much worse, outside of social stigma, than many other industries. You need to do that before you accuse anyone of cognitive dissonance.

I’m not arguing that every porn star is a slave but it seems like all the justifications from people here, “They choose to do that”, “They can quit if they want” are just dismissive self-justifications because they themselves use some nasty types of porn to get off and it helps them feel better.

They can "they can quit if they want" - just like the rest of us. If you don't believe me, quit your job now.

The World is full of people in shìtty jobs. Many don't quit because they can't afford to or are too insecure about getting another job. I really don't see porn actors being any different.

Though I’m curious why you didn’t address the part about ‘gonzo’ porn and how young males hitting puberty will be affected by such stuff - seeing as you dissected every other part of my post.

Probably because it goes into a separate discussion on whether porn is good for society in general, rather than those working in it, and that would drag the discussion OT. Would you like to change the subject?

Of course, but such other forms of exploitation don’t involve being screwed some place very uncomfortable because the job ‘requires’ it.

Literally screwed no, but close. Many jobs involve very unpleasant and potentially hazardous activities - imagine working down a sewer or a war zone, for example?

And again, there are alternatives for consumers, so why don’t people take them? For example, fake fur has been on the market for quite a while yet some consumers want 'real' fur, which we all know what is involved there.

You're going off topic and making a comparison between two things that is open to question and even making a moral judgment on a second industry that is open question - it's presumptuous for you to think we share your views on the fur industry.

Ah come on now, you know there is. I just think it’s easier to point to every other bit of exploitation going on in the world so you don’t feel so bad. Children use those kind of arguments, “Yeah, but, he was throwing stones too mammy! It wasn’t just me!”

Actually, I am pointing out that your arguments to not set pornography apart from many other occupations, yet you claim that somehow they are. You've not demonstrated any exploitation, hazard or anything else that cannot be seen in other jobs.

Now, unless we should stop all these jobs, then you have to accept them all - unless you can give us something valid to differentiate porn from them.

What I find is that intelligent people are very, very good and defending all kinds of beliefs. Religious apologists/theologian scholars come to mind, but that's for another forum. :cool:

That's true, which is why you need to go back to first principles, or as close as you can, with any discussion.

a) What makes porn unacceptable that is not shared by acceptable jobs?

b) Is that thing from a) intrinsic to porn or external to it?

From what I can make out porn is a pretty unpleasant and even risky occupation. However, it is well paid and people enter it voluntarily - at least no less so than most other occupations. All that seems to differ is society's attitude towards it, and that is hardly the fault of porn - it would be like blaming homophobia on gays.

nozzferrahhtoo

The fact, unfortunate as it may be, is that there are many industries where there workers enter into careers that are inherently risky.

From Police work, to working in mines, to army work, even to some branches of science (such as my cousin who is involved in diagnosing and cataloguing new diseases in humans, work that puts her in direct risk of contracting said diseases).

Even high profile careers that we often want our children to aspire to, like the medical profession, comes with many risks and if anyone were not to acknowledge the risks these people put themselves into for our benefit would be an insult to the medical profession everywhere.

In fact if we were to rise up against industries solely because their workers are put at risk, I am not sure what industries would survive the application of our benign intentions and actions.

The worst thing however is that the same people who use the risks of porn as a weapon to beat it, are the same people who push the porn industry underground, either by making it illegal or taboo, and hence manoeuvre its workers into a position where their industry is not subject to the laws of safety in the workplace or the benefits of employee medical insurance or the avenues of complaint when a co-worker behaves in an out of order fashion… that the rest of us all take for granted.

These people quite literally work hard to maintain the environment in which their “arguments” work for them.

In short, the “risk” argument against pornography holds literally no sway with me.

Killer Wench

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Indeed. In fact many people, male and female, apparently even do it for the fun of it, for no money and no prizes in competitions like that you list above. In fact some people PAY for the privilege of being able to make porn for the world. A quick google search I performed last time I got involved in this debate revealed this website for example…

www.newbienudes.com

… where people post naked and sexual acts of themselves for the sheer hell of it, and actually sometimes pay for “member” accounts that make their pictures get viewed by more people than the non-paying members.

So these are people who just enjoy making porn, and are not even "greedy" like the ones you mention. And if some people just enjoy making it, is it a big step to think that there are some who enjoy making it and are happy to, or greedy enough to, want to get some money while they are at it?

No, it isn't such a big step to think that there are people who enjoy doing it and are not doing it for the money. Again, I think about sites like AFF and Xtube that feature regular people posting films of themselves and/or partners engaged in sexual activity. I don't believe people are concerned so much about what their neighbor or boss would do for catching them in a video because if that neighbor or employer were to act, then they would be acknowledging that they are watching.

nozzferrahhtoo

Killer Wench wrote: »

My dad was career military and although on the surface it looks the same, my main argument would be on how each party benefits after their career has ended.

I am glad to hear it and congratulations to him from me.

However:

1) Putting yourself in the line of fire for your country IS sacrifice of your physical body.
2) The army of course targets people of certain ages and fitness, especially for infantry rolls.
3) Some of the long term effects of the army, emotionally and/or physically can be horrific in ways no one can even begin to imagine sometimes and relatively speaking a career of sex in front of a camera is a hell of a lot safer.

Killer Wench

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The fact, unfortunate as it may be, is that there are many industries where there workers enter into careers that are inherently risky.

From Police work, to working in mines, to army work, even to some branches of science (such as my cousin who is involved in diagnosing and cataloguing new diseases in humans, work that puts her in direct risk of contracting said diseases).

Even high profile careers that we often want our children to aspire to, like the medical profession, comes with many risks and if anyone were not to acknowledge the risks these people put themselves into for our benefit would be an insult to the medical profession everywhere.

In fact if we were to rise up against industries solely because their workers are put at risk, I am not sure what industries would survive the application of our benign intentions and actions.

The worst thing however is that the same people who use the risks of porn as a weapon to beat it, are the same people who push the porn industry underground, either by making it illegal or taboo, and hence manoeuvre its workers into a position where their industry is not subject to the laws of safety in the workplace or the benefits of employee medical insurance or the avenues of complaint when a co-worker behaves in an out of order fashion… that the rest of us all take for granted.

These people quite literally work hard to maintain the environment in which their “arguments” work for them.

In short, the “risk” argument against pornography holds literally no sway with me.

I think that I actually agree with you. Is there really a greater risk in being a porn actor than there is in being a single male of female who has indiscriminate one night stands?

Killer Wench

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I am glad to hear it and congratulations to him from me.

However:

1) Putting yourself in the line of fire for your country IS sacrifice of your physical body.
2) The army of course targets people of certain ages and fitness, especially for infantry rolls.
3) Some of the long term effects of the army, emotionally and/or physically can be horrific in ways no one can even begin to imagine sometimes and relatively speaking a career of sex in front of a camera is a hell of a lot safer.

Again, another core difference - for me - is for whom the sacrifice is being made. Now, don't get me wrong; there are numerous soldiers, airmen, sailors, and Marines who enter the military because they wish to obtain access to job training and educational assistance, but their sacrifice is made on behalf of the people; the greater gain is to the people of the country and not a corporation. This line is why people respect our military personnel but do not have the same level of respect for contractors who are willing to do essentially the same type of things that soldiers/Marines do.

nozzferrahhtoo

Killer Wench wrote: »

but their sacrifice is made on behalf of the people; the greater gain is to the people of the country and not a corporation.

Of course of course, I certainly do not disagree with that. There are of course going to be SOME differences. No analogy is ever 100% perfect, ever.

However if we are merely talking about porn in terms of “risks” to the workers involved, which a lot of people on this thread are, then I think the analogy to the military is a very sound one on THAT level at least.

In fact compared to the military, the police force, and some areas of the medical profession… a job in pornography is relatively safe by comparison.