Impressions of Dublin at copenhagenize.com

tomasrojo

http://www.copenhagenize.com/2010/07/dublin-rolls-from-past-to-future.html

Rather over-rosy picture, particularly about the cycling infrastructure, but he's probably right that things are looking up for cycling in Dublin, which is great.

Lumen

What the hell is a "non-sub cultural cyclist"? No wait, I don't really want to know.

And "Citizen Cyclists"? As opposed to what?

Cycling in Dublin is great apart from the crap roads and the idiots.

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

What the hell is a "non-sub cultural cyclist"?

I think he means people not in Lycra; he has a but of a thing about Lycra being bad.

tomasrojo

Sub-cultural cyclists mean Vehicular Cyclists. They seem to be "zealots" who don't like being pedestrianised. There's a rather unpleasant bit from a few days ago on the site as well mocking VC. John Franklin is like a cult leader, blah, blah.

tomasrojo

That's true about the Lycra. He has a post just before the anti-VC post which is anti-Lycra.

Jawgap

Lumen wrote: »

.....

And "Citizen Cyclists"? As opposed to what?

Cycling in Dublin is great apart from the crap roads and the idiots.

A bourgeois cyclist obviously enough (i.e. anyone with carbon fibre under their arse) - Citizens ride steel or aluminimum - you wouldn't have caught Marx on carbon fibre or titanium:)

Lumen

Ah, right. Vehicular cyclists secret sect and Lycra makes you act illegally.

So s/he criticizes VCs for their supposed "everyone should be like me" attitude whilst apparently doing the same thing. Hypocrite.

Dizraeligears

I will ride anything-does that make me a Nympho-Cyclist?

Victor

Lumen wrote: »

What the hell is a "non-sub cultural cyclist"?

There is a cycling sub-culture. Typically male, 20-40, ride fast. There couriers, road-bikers and a spattering of commuters. Theres Freds and Euros. The problem is there isn't enough of Joe Bloggs and in particular Jane Bloggs.

Copenhagenize and Cycle Chic is saying the the Everyman can be a cyclist and that you can cycle wearing anything, even soemthing nice.

blorg

Victor wrote: »

Copenhagenize and Cycle Chic is saying the the Everyman can be a cyclist and that you can cycle wearing anything, even soemthing nice.

I completely agree with this; the problem I have with the guy behind the blog is that he is entirely dismissive of cyclists who choose to wear lycra, prefer to ride on roads than on cycle lanes, or who like to go far or fast. The bike is not a complete replacement for the car if you are limited to commuting distances at 10-15km/h.

I have first hand experience of segregated cycle infrastructure in Germany and Austria and frankly it drove me up the wall. Frequent junctions, cyclists having to yield, comparitively poor surfaces, etc. And this is good cycling infrastructure. It would be fine for ambling about but not if you want to cross the country on a schedule. I think it is good to have the option but I would prefer to take the road thanks. 100% it was heartening to see normal people on bikes in normal clothes there. Just don't make me do it or brand me a zealot for wanting to cycle in lycra on the road. Cycling is a very broad church and yer man just doesn't get that; as Lumen says his criticism is quite ironic.

tomasrojo

I think it's the smug, know-it-all tone that gets me on that blog, along with the simplistic caricatures, but I guess Colville-Andersen is a polemicist really, and simplistic caricatures are grist to his mill.

In some ways I correspond to the Everyman, because I'm a utility cyclist, but I cycle moderate distances (up to about 40km a day on a busy day) in normal clothes. I also prefer using the road.

I have been given to understand that the German and Austrian facilities are consiferably inferior to the Danish and Dutch facilities. I have only cycled on Dutch facilities. They were perfectly fine, maybe a bit slow, but the roads weren't very busy at all so I could have very happily used them instead. My experience wasn't very broad, so I can't really comment beyond that. I can say with great certainty that there were a hell of a lot more cyclists than here.

p

blorg wrote: »

I completely agree with this; the problem I have with the guy behind the blog is that he is entirely dismissive of cyclists who choose to wear lycra, prefer to ride on roads than on cycle lanes, or who like to go far or fast. The bike is not a complete replacement for the car if you are limited to commuting distances at 10-15km/h.

He's not dismissive of cyclists who go fast, but merely pointing out that the aim is not to make cycle facilities for those people. It's the other 90% of cyclists who we're aiming for. People who cycle 10 minutes to school, or the supermarket. Often when people think of cyclists, they're thinking of the lycra kind, so his frustration us understandable. If we compared pedestrian facilities to running facilities, it would be a bit strange.

blorg wrote: »

I have first hand experience of segregated cycle infrastructure in Germany and Austria and frankly it drove me up the wall. Frequent junctions, cyclists having to yield, comparitively poor surfaces, etc. And this is good cycling infrastructure. It would be fine for ambling about but not if you want to cross the country on a schedule. I think it is good to have the option but I would prefer to take the road thanks. 100% it was heartening to see normal people on bikes in normal clothes there. Just don't make me do it or brand me a zealot for wanting to cycle in lycra on the road. Cycling is a very broad church and yer man just doesn't get that; as Lumen says his criticism is quite ironic.

Absolutely, there's no reason to exclude sports cycling, but just that's not the primary aim here. He's not suggesting that at all, from what I've read. Just like you've said there, cycling infrastructure isn't aimed at "cross the country on a schedule" - that's what trains and cars are for. You're not going to design an urban area for a relatively small amount of sports cyclists.

Having just moved from Copenhagen to Munich, I can see a big difference in the cycling infrastructure. Copenhagen cycle lanes are a lot more integrated with the road, whereas Munich cycle lanes are more linked with pedestrian areas. So far, I think I prefer the Copenhagen way of doing things, but I'll see.

tomasrojo

p wrote: »

He's not dismissive of cyclists who go fast

He's dismissive of anyone who isn't like him. It's his personality, and he can't help it. That doesn't mean some of his points aren't correct, but I don't know how you can read much of that blog and conclude that he's isn't dismissive of people who aren't like him.

He's also as blinkered as he accuses other of being:

They are also blind to the developments in Emerging Bicycle Cultures like French cities, Spanish cities and even cities like Dublin, Portland, New York, Philadelphia, etc etc. People are returning to the bicycle thanks to infrastructure and taming of the bull. All over the world.

So there you go. Crap infrastructure in Dublin caused the boom in cycling. He shows as much "magical thinking" about infrastructure as he accuses others of showing about helmets. Add infrastructure, however bad and, abracadabra, bicycle boom ensues.

Victor

blorg wrote: »

I completely agree with this; the problem I have with the guy behind the blog is that he is entirely dismissive of cyclists who choose to wear lycra

He's a showman, he likes to gain a bit of attention. Euro types can sometimes be laughed at. Trainspotters can be laughed at. Quantity Surveyors can be laughed at. Celebrities, politicians and sports personalities can be laughed at. Its called satire. Sometimes, there is even self-deprecating humour.

We chatted for a while at the Cycle Chic event (monument may have overheard) and I mentioned this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055855751 and got asked "Remind me, what type of website were you looking at?" in a jokey tone that was a lot more human than any Top Gear put down.

HivemindXX

I read the straw man based rant about vehicular (or normal as I like to call it) cycling and the comment I liked most was one that said that if there's one thing about cult leaders it's that they don't like the leaders of other cults.

Maybe it's satire or self depcrecating humour or maybe that's the line defenders always try to sell when faced with something nasty and bogus.

I should write a blog saying that he won't be happy until every cyclist is sedately drifting from cycle path point A to cycle path point B wearing a frilly dress and a big straw hat. I'm sure it would appear deliciously satirical and self deprecating.

Bluefoam

having read a number of articles from this guy, I'd say you are over reacting. He is using a foreign language to communicate his point and may have used certain words/phrases in a mildly inappropriate way.

His point seems to be that, to encourage people to use a bicycle as a primary form of transport, that they need to be comforted in the fact that you don't need to wear special cloths, or distinguish yourself as someone different from the mass population by wearing special clothing such as lycra or high vis vests.

He has stated before that sport cycling is a legitimate activity, but is separate from the slow bicycle movement, which is about leisurely use of bikes over shorter distances.

Don't get too upset at him because he doesn't embrace sport cycling in the same way you do. He is a campaigner for bicycle transport in specific circumstances & in order to expand that group, they need to remove certain stigmas that exist in people perception...

monument

The "Vehicular cyclists secret sect" post is ott -- it takes the most extreme advocates of vehicular cycling and makes the extreme out to be everybody. I disagree with this kind of extrema just as much as I disagree with the extremists of vehicular cycling. Besides I prefer the idea of sharing the roads, we're all just people using the roads, we're not vehicles.

The reality is that taking control of your space on the road will remain a very valuable skill for cyclists here for a long time.

blorg wrote: »

I completely agree with this; the problem I have with the guy behind the blog is that he is entirely dismissive of cyclists who choose to wear lycra, prefer to ride on roads than on cycle lanes, or who like to go far or fast. The bike is not a complete replacement for the car if you are limited to commuting distances at 10-15km/h.

Green waves in Copenhagen require you to cycle over 20km/h to meet each light.

In fairness to him, I don't think he quite understands how bad cycle lane design is in places like Dublin, or what it's like to be expected to use these, or get abuse for not using them from bus, taxi and other drivers.

As for lycra, he's trying to battle against years of cycling being something abnormal in too many countries. Over time on his blog the main targets are helmets and high-vis, not lycra. Just take into account he is up a position from many people outside the Denmark that these are needed, and there's no way you can cycle with out gear.

Even look at one of the comments on his Dublin post: "I think you've been a bit selective in what you've photographed as well. Helmet-wearing in Dublin around the city centre is very high. I'd estimate around 40%. Flappy hi-viz vests adorn about 50% of cyclists."

While he was likely being selective, however, helmet-wearing in Dublin City Centre is not that high. On some routes out of the city helmet use can go beyond 50%, but the city centre is not near that, outside of peek times usage drops down again. And hi-viz is nowhere near 50% in summer time, although it is still shocking that people us them on some of the most sunny days of the year.

From taking photos and just being on the streets of Dublin myself, I'd say it's a very mixed bag -- some wear both, some wear one but not the other. It changes from winter to summer, from day to day, or route to route, or even time of day on some routes.

Even here in Dublin the perception is that helmets and high-vis are needed and that most people do use them even when both are not true.

blorg wrote: »

I have first hand experience of segregated cycle infrastructure in Germany and Austria and frankly it drove me up the wall.

As others have said, the Dutch and Danes have the best design, not always perfect and even they are improving their designs. In Germany, I've only seen Berlin and it's quite good. In Austria I've only been to Vienna and that was far poorer -- they are far behind there.

Copenhagen are only now looking at longer distance cycling more seriously, we should learn from this and start now.

Victor

monument wrote: »

Green waves in Copenhagen require you to cycle over 20km/h to meet each light.

Surely, if you cycle at half that speed (or double it!!), you should also get the green wave?

tomasrojo

monument wrote: »

And hi-viz is nowhere near 50% in summer time, although it is still shocking that people us them on some of the most sunny days of the year.

That's the message from the RSA, I suppose. Remember: more important than working brakes, whatever the visibility conditions!

I'd be interested in seeing the results of a survey of hi-viz and helmets in the city centre to see what usage actually is. Not interested enough to do it myself, mind you.

monument

tomasrojo wrote: »

I'd be interested in seeing the results of a survey of hi-viz and helmets in the city centre to see what usage actually is. Not interested enough to do it myself, mind you.

Would be hard enough to get an accurate picture given the differences I mentioned in my last post, but it would be possible to do.

niceonetom

He's like a man padding barefoot around a lovely carpeted room snidely braying that anyone who ever wears shoes is a loon. Try walking around in the real world like that, your footsies will bleed.

And anyway, I quite like pretending to be a car. Also, lycra is comfy.

tomasrojo

Incidentally, the anti-VC tone on the site isn't new. It's been there quite a while. He just never wrote a long post about it before. Instead belittling of VC would turn up quite a bit in comments he wrote below the posts, generally in the same tone. I used to visit the site more frequently until those comments starting showing up with greater frequency.

Not that I'm an ardent VC person. I just don't hold with magical thinking about infrastructure, and I find him a rather feeble humorist, even allowing for English not being his first language. He's no bikesnobnyc, that's for sure.

cdaly_

Victor wrote: »

monument wrote:

Green waves in Copenhagen require you to cycle over 20km/h to meet each light.

Surely, if you cycle at half that speed (or double it!!), you should also get the green wave?

Half the speed should work, double will only work if the lights are at least 2 wavelengths apart, otherwise you hit the red every second light.

jspruit

monument wrote: »

Even look at one of the comments on his Dublin post: "I think you've been a bit selective in what you've photographed as well. Helmet-wearing in Dublin around the city centre is very high. I'd estimate around 40%. Flappy hi-viz vests adorn about 50% of cyclists."

While he was likely being selective, however, helmet-wearing in Dublin City Centre is not that high. On some routes out of the city helmet use can go beyond 50%, but the city centre is not near that, outside of peek times usage drops down again. And hi-viz is nowhere near 50% in summer time, although it is still shocking that people us them on some of the most sunny days of the year.

From taking photos and just being on the streets of Dublin myself, I'd say it's a very mixed bag -- some wear both, some wear one but not the other. It changes from winter to summer, from day to day, or route to route, or even time of day on some routes.

Even here in Dublin the perception is that helmets and high-vis are needed and that most people do use them even when both are not true.

tomasrojo wrote: »

I'd be interested in seeing the results of a survey of hi-viz and helmets in the city centre to see what usage actually is. Not interested enough to do it myself, mind you.

I'd be interested in these numbers as well, but as mentioned it could vary quite a bit dependent on time of day/year, area surveyed, weather, etc. On a quick walk to the shops Wednesday around 11:30am (windy, 17 degrees, and overcast) I noticed 5 cyclists. None of them were going at a fast speed, just pedaling around, and none of them were wearing helmets or anything resembling hi-vis gear. This was around the Prussia St./North Circular Road intersection.