Uruguay -v- Ghana, Q-Final

eagle eye

Melion wrote: »

Nothing can be done. The ref did the right thing.

The point here is people trying to defend what Suarez did. Try and keep up

The issue for me is two things.

1. People disagreeing that Suarez cheated because he did.

2. FIFA rules are just lolbad.

I do know that if I was in his position I am 99.99% certain I'd have done the same thing.

steelcityblues

CorkMan wrote: »

Goodbye Uruguay is all I can say. Hot favourites to be back in the capital of Uruguay before the final, whatever the capital is

Montevideo. Does Dunphy know the answer?

Het-Field

Melion wrote: »

I cant understand how Suarez being sent off had anything to do with Gyans penalty or how it gave them an advantage?
Ghana were completely screwed by Suarez, he stopped a goal. The ball would have been in the net if it wasnt for his hand. How can you not see that?

I can see where you are coming from. I just dont believe it. You are seethting about this incident in the light of Henery's handball in 2009. Otherwise, there would be no discussion as to the merits/de-merits of what Luis Suarez had done. What do you propose he do ? Let the ball trickle over the line, and be a good sport about it ? There are countless examples of players handling the ball on the line, knowing that the FIFA approved sanction is a straight red card, an automatic suspension, and a penalty kick. Players know that and accept it. If FIFA see fit to award penalty goals, then that is their prerogative. However,a s things stand,they opt for a penalty. Suarez fouled the ball, and the perscribed sanction was handed down. That is the end of the matter. This is due to the precedent of not calling thos who handle balls in a similar manner to Suarez as "cheats".

On the other hand, the likes of Maradona and Henry had NO sanction to think of. In fact the carrot to do what they did was a place in the World Cup Semi Final, and qualification for the World Cup respectively. To consider Suarez as part of that clique is derisory and short sighted. He is not allowe play in Uraguay's biggest game since the 1970s. What happened to Henry and Maradona ?

The rules are there in black and white. If you dont like them, then I suggest you quit watching football

namloc1980

CorkMan wrote: »

Goodbye Uruguay is all I can say. Hot favourites to be back in the capital of Uruguay before the final, whatever the capital is

Huh?

(Montevideo is the capital of Uruguay BTW)

fryup

Well before we get carried away with a days mourning for Ghana lets not forget that the free kick that lead to the penalty wasn't a free kick and Uruaguay should have got a penalty 20min earlier.

steelcityblues

fryup wrote: »

Well before we get carried away with a days mourning for Ghana lets not forget that the free kick that lead to the penalty wasn't a free kick and Uruaguay should have got a penalty 20min earlier.

Ghana had an obvious penalty denied in the second half (Boateng blocked by two defenders).

dolliemix

CorkMan wrote: »

Goodbye Uruguay is all I can say. Hot favourites to be back in the capital of Uruguay before the final, whatever the capital is

Montevideo

But I hope they make it to the Final so I can sit back and watch all the begrudgers complain about how unfair football is! :rolleyes:

Seriously...there are 90 mins there for both teams to prove themselves. If a team can't prove themselves in that 90 mins, then it generally all comes down to luck.

Ghana were unlucky that Suarez handballed that ball.

Suarez was damn lucky that Gyan missed the penalty.

Suarez is going to miss the Semi-Final. The penalties could have gone either way. Uruguay are unlucky that they won't have Suarez for the semi-final.

cooker3

Het-Field wrote: »

What did Ireland get to right the wrong ? What did Ghana get to right the wrong ? I think you will see how incomparable the examples are.

I doubt we would all be discssing this if Henry had never done what he did.

Personally I think what Suarez did was the no brainer obvious decision to make, it's not even close. I don't regard it as cheating, he committed the offence of handball. That's it. Henry did exactly the same.

Now if people want to call Henry and Suarez a cheat that's fine. I would disagree as I think cheat is a pejorative term but I would respect it as it's a logically consistent argument.Trying to claim suarez isn't a cheat while Henry is not logically consistent. You( by you I mean those who argue this position) keep trying to introduce pointless variables, like well Henry was in opponents half, Ireland were the better team blah blah blah. IRRELEVANT.

The sole difference that matters between both events is 1 got caught, the other didn't. Their acts and justification are the same. The subsequent outcomes and decisions made by the officials are irrelevant to the act. It's not Henrys fault the linesman screwed up. It's not Henry you should be angry with about what happened in Paris it's the ref, the linesman but mainly fvcking Fifa + Uefa for not allowing the right decision to be made by use of technology.

cooker3

Het-Field wrote: »

What Henry did is not something that all and sundry would have done. In Henry's case ,any would have taken the ball as having got away and left it. In suare's case he did something which is commonplace, and has occurred at the tournament already. Henry was not sanctioned, Suarez was. End of story.

Wtf? Sanctioned, sanctioned by whom?
So basically if the majority of people do it's not cheating. Solid.

Het-Field

cooker3 wrote: »

Personally I think what Suarez did was the no brainer obvious decision to make, it's not even close. I don't regard it as cheating, he committed the offence of handball. That's it. Henry did exactly the same.

Now if people want to call Henry and Suarez a cheat that's fine. I would disagree as I think cheat is a pejorative term but I would respect it as it's a logically consistent argument.Trying to claim suarez isn't a cheat while Henry is not logically consistent. You( by you I mean those who argue this position) keep trying to introduce pointless variables, like well Henry was in opponents half, Ireland were the better team blah blah blah. IRRELEVANT.

The sole difference that matters between both events is 1 got caught, the other didn't. Their acts and justification are the same. The subsequent outcomes and decisions made by the officials are irrelevant to the act. It's not Henrys fault the linesman screwed up. It's not Henry you should be angry with about what happened in Paris it's the ref, the linesman but mainly fvcking Fifa + Uefa for not allowing the right decision to be made by use of technology.

With due respect, the constants are that
1)Ghana were always going to be given a prime opportunity to right the wrong
2)Uruguay were ALWAYS going to suffer by virtue of this decision (Suarez couldnt take a penalty kick, and wouldnt be allowed play in the semi final), and the extent of their suffering (i.e. whether Gyan missed/scored) is the variable.

On the other hand

1)Ireland were given no Prime opportunity to right the wrong
2)France were only going to benefit. At worst Henry would have emerged with a yellow card, and a red face

dreamers75

Het-Field wrote: »

With due respect, the constants are that
1)Ghana were always going to be given a prime opportunity to right the wrong
2)Uruguay were ALWAYS going to suffer by virtue of this decision (Suarez couldnt take a penalty kick, and wouldnt be allowed play in the semi final), and the extent of their suffering (i.e. whether Gyan missed/scored) is the variable.

On the other hand

1)Ireland were given no Prime opportunity to right the wrong
2)France were only going to benefit. At worst Henry would have emerged with a yellow card, and a red face

Why are you bothering to reply?

seriously

Het-Field

cooker3 wrote: »

Wtf? Sanctioned, sanctioned by whom?
So basically if the majority of people do it's not cheating. Solid.

Not at all. The requsite FIFA sanction for Henry's indiscretion was ensurance that Gallas shot was not validated on the scoreboard, a free kick was given to Ireland, and perhaps a yellow card. The referee should have given that.

As I have said, it is a professional foul to handle the ball on the line. FIFA have a protocol for dealing with this type of professional foul. It was adhered to.

DB10

I can't believe some people still want to bring up Henry. For the few months after it fine, but to still make him out to be some sort of "super cheat" is just pathetic.

We get mocked for still going on about it ffs. Alot of teams have had to take a far harsher punishment, you would think listening to some we got the worst doing possible. Sure, we were only drawing that match, we weren't even winning, we were robbed of penalties. Ghana got robbed of that goal, although they got the penalty.

**** happens and live goes on, deal with it.

cooker3

Het-Field wrote: »

With due respect, the constants are that
1)Ghana were always going to be given a prime opportunity to right the wrong
2)Uruguay were ALWAYS going to suffer by virtue of this decision (Suarez couldnt take a penalty kick, and wouldnt be allowed play in the semi final), and the extent of their suffering (i.e. whether Gyan missed/scored) is the variable.

On the other hand

1)Ireland were given no Prime opportunity to right the wrong
2)France were only going to benefit. At worst Henry would have emerged with a yellow card, and a red face

Most of this I agree with but these are issues are related to the ref and the governing bodies for making the rules what they are. They have nothing to do with the respective acts undertaken by both players. This is what I'm trying to say.

Fizman

Fizman wrote: »

Ok I'm going to be genuinely honest with you here ok. This may surprise you but I actually DO NOT have a problem with Thierry Henry (I can't actually believe I am discussing this topic btw).

The people I had issues with after 'that game' were the officials. Henry did what he did and we really need to get over it. He was playing for his country........and he contributed to getting his country to a World Cup finals. He did what he set out to do. He did his job.

The officials......they DID NOT do what they set out to do. They did not do their job. They are the reason this bollox has carried on. If that decision was given, as it should have been, Henry wouldn't have batted an eye lid and would have continued on his way. But because the incompetent officials saw otherwise, things have panned out like they have.

I have no beef with Thierry Henry. At the end of the day he was representing his country. I do have beef with FIFA as an organisation as I think they have allowed a rotten element into the sport because of their stone age approach to officiating.

cooker3 wrote: »

Personally I think what Suarez did was the no brainer obvious decision to make, it's not even close. I don't regard it as cheating, he committed the offence of handball. That's it. Henry did exactly the same.

Now if people want to call Henry and Suarez a cheat that's fine. I would disagree as I think cheat is a pejorative term but I would respect it as it's a logically consistent argument.Trying to claim suarez isn't a cheat while Henry is not logically consistent. You( by you I mean those who argue this position) keep trying to introduce pointless variables, like well Henry was in opponents half, Ireland were the better team blah blah blah. IRRELEVANT.

The sole difference that matters between both events is 1 got caught, the other didn't. Their acts and justification are the same. The subsequent outcomes and decisions made by the officials are irrelevant to the act. It's not Henrys fault the linesman screwed up. It's not Henry you should be angry with about what happened in Paris it's the ref, the linesman but mainly fvcking Fifa + Uefa for not allowing the right decision to be made by use of technology.

Thank you. Nice to see someone sharing my good sense.

I find it truly astonishing that the decision (or lack of) of a referee has caused so much anguish. If it was called as it should have been, Henry would get on with the rest of his life. Since the officials didn't do their job correc

tly, France subsequently progress and Henry is hated the world over (or so it seems).

Mind boggling when you look at it rationally.

For all of you who have a problem with Suarez, I just want to point this out...............................................................................

Lets go through this play by play shall we?

1. Ball is played into the box in the remaining seconds and a shot is legitimately cleared off the line.
2. Another goal bound header is going in, but is handled on the line.
3. Ghana are outraged.
4. The ref subsequently awards a penalty and sends offending player off.
5. Ghana (and the continent of Africa) are no longer outraged as they have this penalty to go make history and go through to the semi. Ghana as a nation right now are in a nervous/happy place.
6. Ghana miss, but still have an opportunity to progress via a penalty shootout.
7. Ghana will also be happy right now as Uruguays potent goalscorer is not available for a penalty.
8. Ghana lose on penalties.


Because 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 have happened, Ghana (and nobody else imo) have no right to go back to 3 and claim Suarez is a cheat.

fryup

imagine if uruguay reach the final and our friend Suarez scores the winning goal, not beyond the bounds of possiblity

ArmaniJeanss

CorkMan wrote: »

Goodbye Uruguay is all I can say. Hot favourites to be back in the capital of Uruguay before the final, whatever the capital is

Certainties to be at the final* you'll be happy to know, and definitely won't be back in Montevideo.

Possibly as players, else (for those players who wish to accept) squads and officials of both beaten semi-finalists are invited to the final the day after the 3rd place playoff.

cooker3

I actually wonder will Fifa ban Suarez for 2 games just to counter the outrage that is going to be unleashed about this.

leninbenjamin

Best red card ever.

ArmaniJeanss

cooker3 wrote: »

I actually wonder will Fifa ban Suarez for 2 games just to counter the outrage that is going to be unleashed about this.

There would be absolutely no precedent for doing this.
(Which is not to say they won't, but I doubt it).

To be honest I don't think there is any permament outrage, maybe in Ghana but everyone else will have calmed down about it in the next 12 hours.
And realised that there is nothing to be outraged about.

DB10

FIFA make up the rules as they go along.

Zidane was sent off in 06 due to television replay which was swept under the carpet and denied. There was no precedent there either.

Het-Field

There will be no outrage.

How many other teams have complained because the stated rules were adhered to ? This outrage is possibly exclusive to Ireland, and it is only in the light of Henry's handball. Football people all over the world know and accept the rules for professional fouls of this nature. I have been following football for nearly 20 years, and tonight is the first time I have ever heard of an "on the line handball" as being "cheating"

Aidric

Wow. Only saw the second half of et and the pens. Suarez was completely vindicated by his handball but Gyan looked inconsolable. That final pen was the stuff of legend.

Boskowski

I know the foul was spotted, the rules were adhered to and all is perfectly fine, technically....but I have to say - in the spirit of the game and all that - it's pretty sh1tty what happened.

There is simply no honor in football anymore, diving, playacting, demanding cards for opponents, playing handball on the line. Anything goes because above all it's about winning.

But people forget - it's a game. It's not war and it's not business and it's nothing like in real life. It's a game were two teams agree to measure each others skills within a certain ruleset. And yet the first thing they do is break the bloody rules to gain an advantage.

yabadabado

Boskowski wrote: »

I know the foul was spotted, the rules were adhered to and all is perfectly fine, technically....but I have to say - in the spirit of the game and all that - it's pretty sh1tty what happened.

There is simply no honor in football anymore, diving, playacting, demanding cards for opponents, playing handball on the line. Anything goes because above all it's about winning.

But people forget - it's a game. It's not war and it's not business and it's nothing like in real life. It's a game were two teams agree to measure each others skills within a certain ruleset. And yet the first thing they do is break the bloody rules to gain an advantage.

this has been happening for years at all levels nothing new.

ArmaniJeanss

Boskowski wrote: »

It's a game were two teams agree to measure each others skills within a certain ruleset. And yet the first thing they do is break the bloody rules to gain an advantage.

But deliberately handling the ball isn't considered outside the ruleset.
Its catered for within the rules agreed by the two teams, with a clearly defined outcome, a free-kick or penalty kick, with the possibility of a yellow or red card depending on specific circumstances.

Its analagous to the ruleset saying the match is played only on a pitch 100 metres by 40metres (approx). So when I deliberately kick the ball out of play the outcome is either a goalkick, corner or throw in.

A handball is effectively the same thing. A cynical attitude I know, but with the experience of 15 years of playing and being both the victim and guilty party (by proxy, I'm a goalkeeper) of deliberate handball incidents. And seeing nothing wrong on the couple of occasions that I saved the resulting penalty.

seadnamac

cooker3 wrote: »

I actually wonder will Fifa ban Suarez for 2 games just to counter the outrage that is going to be unleashed about this.

What f*cking outrage? He handled the ball, got sent off and Ghana got a penalty. And when they got the penalty, they were f*cking delighted. That they subsequently missed it cannot be blamed on Saurez, the referee, FIFA or anyone else.

I despair...

Savman

Epic, epic game.

MisterAnarchy

Perhaps the rules of soccer need to be changed to award a goal in the Suarez penalty incident.Something along the lines of a penalty try in rugby.
It was an outrageously blatant handball and it was a certain goal but for him handling the ball on the goal line.
Under those circumstances I dont think a penalty is a fair substitute for the goal .

CR 7

seadnamac wrote: »

What f*cking outrage? He handled the ball, got sent off and Ghana got a penalty. And when they got the penalty, they were f*cking delighted. That they subsequently missed it cannot be blamed on Saurez, the referee, FIFA or anyone else.

I despair...

Where was the outrage for this:

Pauleta

That was definitely my favourite game of the tournament so far. Not just the drama at the end but the 1st half and parts of the 2nd were great. Hopefully Germany-Argentina are the same. Ive no hope that Paraguay can produce anything entertaining.

CR 7

Pauleta wrote: »

That was definitely my favourite game of the tournament so far. Not just the drama at the end but the 1st half and parts of the 2nd were great. Hopefully Germany-Argentina are the same. Ive no hope that Paraguay can produce anything entertaining.

Now that's simply not true.

ArmaniJeanss

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Perhaps the rules of soccer need to be changed to award a goal in the Suarez penalty incident.Something along the lines of a penalty try in rugby.
It was an outrageously blatant handball and it was a certain goal but for him handling the ball on the goal line.
Under those circumstances I dont think a penalty is a fair substitute for the goal .

I look forward to the carnage such an ill-advised hasty rule change would bring.

Arsenal get a 'penalty try/goal' one week.
The next week there is a similar handball on the line in a MUFC game but the referee decides that just possibly there is a chance another defender might have cleared it with his head. MUFC miss the penalty and lose 3 points, there is a 3000 post match thread on boards, SAF explodes in a ball of fire in the press conference and Sky Sports spend the next 72 hours analysing both handballs from umpteen angles whilst emphasing that 'all any of us want is some consistency'. Bring it on.

Wolfe Tone

Park Ji Sung wrote: »

Now that's simply not true.

Some guy lumped his mobile down there as a creative way of getting a feel. If that creativity can be reflected on the pitch they have every chance!

Pauleta

I take that back

namloc1980

Boskowski wrote: »

I know the foul was spotted, the rules were adhered to and all is perfectly fine, technically....but I have to say - in the spirit of the game and all that - it's pretty sh1tty what happened.

There is simply no honor in football anymore, diving, playacting, demanding cards for opponents, playing handball on the line. Anything goes because above all it's about winning.

But people forget - it's a game. It's not war and it's not business and it's nothing like in real life. It's a game were two teams agree to measure each others skills within a certain ruleset. And yet the first thing they do is break the bloody rules to gain an advantage.

This happens in every sport in every corner of the planet. Seriously people need to get over this. I suspect many of those shouting for rule changes have never actually played the sport. If every player on the football pitch never broke the rules the game would be a pretty boring watch. Suarez broke a rule and got the appropriate punishment according to the rules. If people don't like the rules then I suggest you stop watching football altogether. Awarding of penalty goals is a nonsense and yet another reason why rugby is a bit of a joke in my view.

m@cc@

I reckon what Suarez did was as professional as you can get. Sacrificing yourself for the sake of the team.

I recall about 12 years ago, Robert Lee was through on goal for Newcastle vs Man U, you would have backed him to put it away but Solskjaer just hacked him down deliberately. It was pre-meditated and I applauded Solskjaer for doing it.

davyjose

Pro. F wrote: »

I don't get the Suarez hate. As Eamo said it was desperation more than cheating. He took the hit for the team and Ghana got a peno for it. I don't think anybody would have been able to resist raising their hand in the same situation.

RTE lads reckoned the game was terrible. I don't agree at all. Not the best quality but a good game for me.

Agree with everything here.

What Suarez did was instinctive, and he didn't cheat, IMO. If the rule is deficient, that's not his fault. His country are in the semi-final of the World cup because he handled the ball on the line. He's entitled to do that, as long as he faces the consequences, which he did.

In Rugby they give penalty tries, i.e. if the team are about to score and the opposing team illegally try to prevent that the try is given anyway. Maybe Fifa should look into a similar ruling for handling the ball on the line? Either way, it's not Suarez's fault Ghana couldn't finish them off.

d22ontour

As i watched it and as the penalty was been took i actually hoped he would miss it.Without a thought of our Henry incident my instinct was i wanted to see 10 penalties not just 1.

Savman

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Perhaps the rules of soccer need to be changed to award a goal in the Suarez penalty incident.

The lunatics have taken over the asylum. Handle on the line, player sent off, penalty kick. End of story, it's as fair a system as it can be.

Award a goal when the ball doesnt cross the line??? Pure absent mindedness. Here's a better one: Ghana should go away and work on their penos, problem solved.

Suarez, you are my hero.

JerryHandbag

m@cc@ wrote: »

I recall about 12 years ago, Robert Lee was through on goal for Newcastle vs Man U, you would have backed him to put it away but Solskjaer just hacked him down deliberately. It was pre-meditated and I applauded Solskjaer for doing it.

And so did the whole of Old Trafford. He basically saved a point for his team.

dolliemix

namloc1980 wrote: »

This happens in every sport in every corner of the planet. Seriously people need to get over this. I suspect many of those shouting for rule changes have never actually played the sport. If every player on the football pitch never broke the rules the game would be a pretty boring watch. Suarez broke a rule and got the appropriate punishment according to the rules. If people don't like the rules then I suggest you stop watching football altogether. Awarding of penalty goals is a nonsense and yet another reason why rugby is a bit of a joke in my view.

I agree with this.

The only thing that really upsets me in football is when one player injures another player on purpose.

If the refs deal with everything as they should, then its all fair and square.


I've never played football but I've played hockey and been left on the line behind the goalie and used my foot as a last resort to stop a goal. There is no way in hell I would stand there and watch it go past the line in the final seconds of he match. You take your chances for the end result.

When I saw Suarez do that on the goal line my reaction was 'he had to do that'!

redout

FIFA saying Suarez could miss the rest of the tournament.

Prufrock

redout wrote: »

FIFA saying Suarez could miss the rest of the tournament.

He already got a red card. He misses the next match. If he misses the rest of the WC and Henry was able to play ban free then it shows terrible double standards. Henry went unpunished Suarez should get his 1 match ban. Ghana had their chance.

Just because the Suarez incident resulted in an African team being eliminated doesn't mean they can suddenly change the fair play rules to suit their PR.

PHB

I really hope he doesn't miss the rest of the tournament. He did what he had to do. If I was in his situation, I would have done the exact same thing, and i would want any player for my team to do the same thing. He should get his one match ban, which is what the rules are, and then be in the team for the final should they progress.

Reminds me of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkAz5CT6apM

Legend.

Fizman

redout wrote: »

FIFA saying Suarez could miss the rest of the tournament.

Oh FFS. If they implement this it rubber stamps them officially as the worst organisation involved in any professional sport. What is the point in having rules and sanctions if these rules or sanctions can be changed on the fly?

inforfun

redout wrote: »

FIFA saying Suarez could miss the rest of the tournament.

Makes sense since it was a straight red. This will come before a disciplinary commission afaik
Only 2 yellows = red is a 1 match ban automatically.

Would surprise me though if it will be more than 1 match

Pro. F

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I look forward to the carnage such an ill-advised hasty rule change would bring.

Arsenal get a 'penalty try/goal' one week.
The next week there is a similar handball on the line in a MUFC game but the referee decides that just possibly there is a chance another defender might have cleared it with his head. MUFC miss the penalty and lose 3 points, there is a 3000 post match thread on boards, SAF explodes in a ball of fire in the press conference and Sky Sports spend the next 72 hours analysing both handballs from umpteen angles whilst emphasing that 'all any of us want is some consistency'. Bring it on.

Use a television match official. Sorted.

I don't think you could introduce the rule without a tmo.

Now you might argue that the tmo is going to have to make the occasional arguable call on this rule but it would be very rare. And refs are already having to make contentious calls for nearly every pen or red card they give.

As it stands there is a clear imbalance in the rules which favours the transgressor in this situation. That obviously needs to change.

I think a lot of people's critical thinking about rules design and evolution has been retarded by following football. A lot of people (not necessarily you Armani) see only the problems when rules changes are suggested, or think that everything is alright as is. The truth is there are loads of problems with modern football and lots of them could be fixed. Modern football is one of the most backward and flawed games I know of when it comes to rules and enforcement. The fact that FIFA are even talking about banning Suarez for the rest of the tournament is yet more evidence of how truly idiotic they are.

HalloweenJack

Prufrock wrote: »

He already got a red card. He misses the next match. If he misses the rest of the WC and Henry was able to play ban free then it shows terrible double standards. Henry went unpunished Suarez should get his 1 match ban.

There's no comparison in the situations. FIFA could say they couldn't do anything about the Henry incident because the ref didn't notice it at the time.

However, the referee took action against Suarez during the match so FIFA have to do it.

A two-match ban wouldn't surprise me. AFAIK, most straight reds result in, at least, a two-match ban. It's nothing to do with FIFA pacifying the Africans.

If they wanted to, they could have let Ghana retake the peno.

I hate FIFA and the way it's run but sometimes the aren't as bad as people want to believe.

Johner

The rule should be Suarez should have to go in goal for the penalty before he goes off since he fancies himself as a goalie. Not that it would have mattered last night but that would be fun.