Is Irish a dead language?

Mike 1972

owenc wrote: »

Yes its the national language of the Republic of Ireland.

Notional language would be closer to the mark.........

Micamaca

I find that when people move out of Ireland, they very much value Irish and want to be able to speak it, as they see that other people have their own native language and speak other languages well too.

I really do blame the way it is taught too...I agree with earlier posters, as with all languages, the emphasis should be on communication, not these old-fashioned poems and stories (some of which were so horrible). Or they should use more modern Irish sources. There are modern writers producing work in the Irish language too..why not put those on the curriculum...or have they already?

It's the same story as usual. I learned French in uni and suffered through really horrible stories and poems. But today I have no confidence in speaking French as we had absolutely no classes devoted to speaking the language. Ditto for German in uni and Irish at school. When will the Education Board realise that we need to learn how to communicate in languages...all languages, not read outdated poetry. That should only play a small part in education, if any. Communication is why most of us want to learn any languages...so we can speak them :mad:

caseyann

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0hSfoo8i34

Beautiful our language is and this guy does it so well

See people everywhere making the effort to learn it.

SkepticOne

Getting back to the original question: is Irish dead? Let us put aside for a moment what we might want it to be and look at the facts.

If you were a foreigner travelling around Ireland for a month, what might you report on your return about the languages spoken in Ireland? I think it is fair to say that you would say that the overwhelming majority speak English, and for most it is their first language. A small number in small scattered localities speak another language, Irish, but most of these people also speak English fluently.

So on the basis of observing what people actually speak, i.e. the reality, Irish is a minority language. It is a bit like Breton in France. Many European countries have several minority languages.

However, unlike Breton, it is also a dead language. This may seem paradoxical. The reason it is also a dead language is that is taught like Latin or Greek. By this I mean it is taught by teachers who know it is not going to be used in real communication to pupils who know they are not going to use the language in real living communication. Sure you may need it to get into university or to be a pompous civil servant but in the past you also needed Latin to do those things. That didn't stop Latin from being a dead language.

So reviving the language, if that is indeed the aim, can never be about schooling. The initiative has to come from those who live in genuine Irish speaking communities. They have to make it attractive to others so that people actually want to learn the language. That way those communities will grow and that is how the language will be revived.

However those same people are often the most enthusiastic supporters of what makes Irish a dead language: i.e. compulsory teaching in school, entry requirements for university etc. I suspect they don't want the language revived but rather want the artificial requirements maintained because it gives them an advantage over those that don't speak the language.

Micamaca

caseyann wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0hSfoo8i34

Beautiful our language is and this guy does it so well

See people everywhere making the effort to learn it.

Oh my God!!! I had to learn that poem off by heart in primary school and recite it in front of my class. I'll never forget it! How cool that you put up that particular youtube vid!

Okay, off topic again. I don't agree that it's dead. There are too many people trying to keep it alive for it to be dead. On that note, am going to tune into some TG4 Seacht for some Gaeilge.

dlofnep

SkepticOne wrote: »

Getting back to the original question: is Irish dead? Let us put aside for a moment what we might want it to be and look at the facts.

The facts are the language is not dead. Being a minority language, and being a dead language are two different things. That's a fact.

Dionysus

tinkerbell wrote: »

It's not a first language for anyone

That's utter nonsense. Ignorant as it comes.

Dionysus

tinkerbell wrote: »

Irish is not our official language, and English is not the second language - English is our first language.

You are factually incorrect once again.

Dionysus

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

But it is still a relic. A relic in use is still a relic.

And Modern English is a relic of Middle English. Your point?

Dionysus

tinkerbell wrote: »

^^ Yep. If the constitution is right then why are all our tv shows in English? Why is most of RTE programming in English? Why doesn't Brian Cowen address the nation in just Irish and not English?

Just because the constitution says it's the native language, doesn't mean it's right - it's a whole load of BS that's what it is!

The Constitution is correct, and you clearly have an ability to understand differences between basic English words like 'official', 'first', 'native' and so forth. The Constitution is patently not the problem here.

Rebelheart

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So then you feel the constitution is stupid then.

owenc wrote: »

Yes its the most i****** thing i've seen in my life.

You really ought to look in a mirror once in a while.

Rebelheart

CoalBucket wrote: »

By the way I said National Language rather than native. I agree there is nothing wrong with being wrong. Again try reading the post rather than inferring a meaning that is not there.

:-) So much for Dumb and Dumber above thinking they just made an intellectual breakthrough in their understanding of the English language.

That glorious day can surely not be too far away....

Mike 1972

dlofnep wrote: »

The facts are the language is not dead. Being a minority language, and being a dead language are two different things. That's a fact.

Think youre missing the point here which is that for a sizable number of people in Ireland it is dead seeing as how the only contact theyll ever have with it is during time spent in the education system (as with Latin in times past)

Unless youre trying to argue that Latin isint dead because the medical and legal profession still use it..................

What I can never figure out is why when practically everyone (whatever their opinion on the necessity or desirability of Irish) agrees that the way it is taught in Irish schools is terrible (and often counterproductive). Nothing (bar some tinkering around at the edges) is ever done to address this and any suggestions regarding doing so are frequently met with suspicion and hostility from the very people one would imagine would have most to gain from doing so.

Rebelheart

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Surely you cannot expect teachers to teach subjects like Business Studies or Biology through the Irish language.

Yeah, just how do both Coláiste Eoin and Coláiste Íosagáin get in the top five schools in Ireland by teaching these subjects and much more through Irish. What next? Finnish students being taught these subjects through Finnish.... Oh my God, like. There are other languages besides English? That's like, you know, like, not kewl.

tinkerbell

Dionysus wrote: »

You are factually incorrect once again.

Unless you're living in some alternate universe where Ireland natives only speak Irish and have a second language of English, then you are incorrect.

English is the first language in Ireland for 99.999999999999999999999999999999% of the population. Those who think Irish is the first are seriously deluded. It doesn't matter what the constitution says, the fact of the matter is that hardly anybody speaks Irish here.

owenc

Rebelheart wrote: »

Yeah, just how do both Coláiste Eoin and Coláiste Íosagáin get in the top five schools in Ireland by teaching these subjects and much more through Irish. What next? Finnish students being taught these subjects through Finnish.... Oh my God, like. There are other languages besides English? That's like, you know, like, not kewl.

My school is top 60 or something in the uk and we don't speak irish and that is out of thousands of schools.

Rebelheart

owenc wrote: »

My school is top 60 or something in the uk and we don't speak irish and that is out of thousands of schools.

Well done, Owenc - yet another hugely relevant contribution.

I'm surprised you're not in the top five - and No. 1 in the Queen's English - given the erudition which marks your posts here.

Wolfe Tone

tinkerbell wrote: »

Unless you're living in some alternate universe where Ireland natives only speak Irish and have a second language of English, then you are incorrect.

English is the first language in Ireland for 99.999999999999999999999999999999% of the population. Those who think Irish is the first are seriously deluded. It doesn't matter what the constitution says, the fact of the matter is that hardly anybody speaks Irish here.

It doesn't matter what the constitution says? I think you are the one who is deluded.

tinkerbell

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

It doesn't matter what the constitution says? I think you are the one who is deluded.

How am I deluded? The constitution says Irish is our official language yet nobody speaks it? Then obviously the constitution has no meaning on this topic if nobody is doing what it says. English is the language that the people of Ireland speak first and foremost. If they want to learn Irish, then they learn it as a second language, not a first. I think you're the one who is deluded here if you think that just because the constitution says Irish is our official language, then it must be - Irish is NOT our official language, English is.

If it was official then why isn't everything in Irish and then translated into English? Why aren't all the RTE channels and radio shows in Irish? Why doesn't Brian Cowen speak in Irish when he addresses the nation? Don't be daft here. Irish is dying out, and it's only hanging on by a thread. Just get on with it.

Wolfe Tone

Officially it is. It is enshrined into the constitution. You are simply wrong.

Rebelheart

tinkerbell wrote: »

How am I deluded? The constitution says Irish is our official language yet nobody speaks it?

And the question now is: is English your first language? Clearly you are having fundamental problems with comprehending it if you say things like the above.

tinkerbell wrote: »

Then obviously the constitution has no meaning on this topic if nobody is doing what it says.

That's a non-sequitur. And before you feel too intimidated, many educated speakers of English use Latin terms also. Shock.

tinkerbell wrote: »

English is the language that the people of Ireland speak first and foremost.

"the people of Ireland" indeed. Wrong, again. "The people of Ireland" include the many Irish people who speak Irish as their first language, as much as this patently riles you. Or maybe you are saying undereducated English-speaking monoglots like yourself now have a monopoly on "Irishness"? The irony is sweet.

tinkerbell wrote: »

If they want to learn Irish, then they learn it as a second language, not a first.

Yes, and let us never entertain the idea that very, very many people who learn a language then use it as their first language. But, of course, when certain people cannot distinguish between somebody's "native language" and somebody's "first language" I suppose this point is above them.

tinkerbell wrote: »

I think you're the one who is deluded here if you think that just because the constitution says Irish is our official language, then it must be

Not "must"; Irish is, in fact, the first official language of the state named Ireland. That you cannot accept this says much more about you than about anything else.

tinkerbell wrote: »

Irish is NOT our official language, English is.

And would you care to name the "official" source for this. Ooops ... let me discover what the word 'official' means .... (oh, maybe I should have done that before ranting and raving above ...)

tinkerbell wrote: »

Irish is dying out, and it's only hanging on by a thread.

Irish is clearly far more alive and sharp than your appreciation of nuances in the English language.

Iwasfrozen

Rebelheart wrote: »

Yeah, just how do both Coláiste Eoin and Coláiste Íosagáin get in the top five schools in Ireland by teaching these subjects and much more through Irish. What next? Finnish students being taught these subjects through Finnish.... Oh my God, like. There are other languages besides English? That's like, you know, like, not kewl.

The obvious answer to that, and the one you seem to have missed is that the vast majority of teachers in Irish schools do not speak Irish.

Rebelheart

gbee wrote: »

And they are very militant, blacking out road signs, arbitrarily changing names, giving children in Gael Scoilanna Irish names, and not allowing them to use the names their parents gave them and their LEGAL names as on their birth certs.

Yeah, how lovely of those people in the English town of Dingle to blacken out road signs with 'An Daingean' on them ... how dare Irish children be given Irish names ... and what a fascinating world you live in where parents who hate Irish choose to send their children to the local gaelscoil and get upset when 'John' becomes 'Eoin' or 'Seán' there. Wow.

And nice to see English linguistic culture has been so peaceful for the past 500 years in Ireland. Oh yeah, a proper paragon of inclusivity and multiculturalism it has been as its proponents rammed the English language down the throat of every single Irish person for centuries. Edmund Spenser how are you.

DublinWriter

Anyhoo, away from the Internetz bitch-fest and back at the topic...

The big problem with Irish was that it was always thought as a dead language at Secondary level.

For example, I came out of Primary school knowing a lot more Irish than I did coming out of Seconary level. Why? Because at Primary the first hour of the day was spent discussing anything we wanted to in Irish, football, music, whatever.

In secondary, they assumed it was 'Year Zero' and off we went back learning rudimentary grammar and how life was lived on the Blasket islands in the 19th Century.

Iwasfrozen

CoalBucket wrote: »

No I don't believe every word that comes out of the governments mouth. The Census is not carried out by the government. It is carried out by a state agency known as the central statistics office. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the government.

I suspect the vast majority of those who said they speak Irish in the census were fibbing. No way do one million people speak Irish in this country.

CoalBucket wrote: »

I don't support waste of tax payers money. I do support efficient spending on the official language of the state. I do not contend that the way the money is currently spent is efficient but I don't believe that all funding towards Irish should be withdrawn.

So why do you support the expense of countless millions in teachers salary and document translation? What are your reasons for taking such a stance? Other then misty eyed celtic tripe that is.

CoalBucket wrote: »

It is the official language of the state. What you choose to stand by or ignore in the constitution is a matter for you.

I'm not ignoring the constitution. I recognise it is an official of the state. It is not however the official language of the state but rather one of two.

Iwasfrozen

Rebelheart wrote: »

Yeah, how lovely of those people in the English town of Dingle to blacken out road signs with 'An Daingean' on them ... how dare Irish children be given Irish names ... and what a fascinating world you live in where parents who hate Irish choose to send their children to the local gaelscoil and get upset when 'John' becomes 'Eoin' or 'Seán' there. Wow.

And nice to see English linguistic culture has been so peaceful for the past 500 years in Ireland. Oh yeah, a proper paragon of inclusivity and multiculturalism it has been as its proponents rammed the English language down the throat of every single Irish person for centuries. Edmund Spenser how are you.

So it is alright if someone does something wrong because someone else did something else wrong first. Well know I've heard everything. :rolleyes:

Wolfe Tone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm not ignoring the constitution. I recognise it is an official of the state. It is not however the official language of the state but rather one of two.

It is the FIRST OFFICIAL LANGUAGE.

See article 8.

eddyc

The Irish people gave up their language on mass a few hundred years ago, yes in part due to coercion but also due to personal choice, most probably to gain employment, this is a sad story but they made the choice.
Where we are now is a vast majority on this island speak english, and this is our culture. The culture of the irish speaking people of ireland is a different one, some would say one that is dead, some are keeping it alive. It is their choice if they want to keep it alive. Everybody else shouldn't have to subsidise them.

Dostoevsky

eddyc wrote: »

The culture of the irish speaking people of ireland is a different one, some would say one that is dead, some are keeping it alive. It is their choice if they want to keep it alive. Everybody else shouldn't have to subsidise them.

And how many tens or hundreds of millions are being poured into subsidising English language teaching and culture in Ireland today? And that's just the money for English language classes for non-English speaking immigrants to Ireland at a time when hundreds of thousands of Irish people are unemployed.

And does your "everybody else" include the enormous number of English-speaking Irish people who love Irish and wish that a portion of their taxes go towards promoting the Irish language? If you really believe that even a majority of English speakers in Ireland support your anti-Irish language views, then why has that community of yours not successfully ended all funding to the Irish language in Ireland if English-speaking monoglots are the anti-Irish majority which you appear to believe they are?

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

It is the FIRST OFFICIAL LANGUAGE.

See article 8.

And yet it is not the official language.